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Shisumo
2007-03-20, 09:37 AM
Okay, so there are many, many threads out there about how TWF sucks. I'm curious about how much that inevitable fate can be minimized. I'm no great shakes at character optimization, so here's my challenge to the forum:

Build a character whose fundamental battle tactic involves using two weapons to deal damage to an enemy, and do the most damage possible to that enemy, within the following guidelines:

* The character is 20th level. All WotC-produced 3.5 books are fair game. Wraithstrike is not included, however, nor are any custom items. Initial scores are 32-point buy. (Edit: To clarify, I mean the character is ECL 20.)

* The enemy has an AC of 35, a touch AC of 20, flat-footed AC of 25, saves at +20, and makes any opposed skill checks with a +15 modifier. It has DR 10/-. Also, due to teleportation/Fly-By Attacks, it begins every turn 100' away. This can be anywhere from 0' to 100' in the air, so being able to fly is recommended. (Note: pinning the opponent down is a perfectly valid tactic if need be.) It is not humanoid.

* You have 5 turns in which to do your damage. Calculate damage by probability of a successful attack multiplied by the average damage of that strike. (This should be extended to probability of other random factors, such as failed saves, appropriately.)

So, builds and tactical options. Go!

Rigeld2
2007-03-20, 09:58 AM
Wraithstrike is not included, however.
Buh? O.o Wierd.
I'll work on one.

Shisumo
2007-03-20, 10:02 AM
Buh? O.o Wierd.
I'll work on one.

That's because Wraithstrike is the only thing I ban outright in my games. And from the comments on this board and elsewhere, I'm not alone in this.

Swordguy
2007-03-20, 10:11 AM
Okay, so there are many, many threads out there about how TWF sucks. I'm curious about how much that inevitable fate can be minimized. I'm no great shakes at character optimization, so here's my challenge to the forum:

Build a character whose fundamental battle tactic involves using two weapons to deal damage to an enemy, and do the most damage possible to that enemy, within the following guidelines:

* The character is 20th level. All WotC-produced 3.5 books are fair game. Wraithstrike is not included, however. Initial scores are 32-point buy. (Edit: To clarify, I mean the character is ECL 20.)

* The enemy has an AC of 35, a touch AC of 20, saves at +20, and makes any opposed skill checks with a +15 modifier. It has DR 10/-. Also, due to teleportation/Fly-By Attacks, it begins every turn 100' away. This can be anywhere from 0' to 100' in the air, so being able to fly is recommended. It is not humanoid.

* You have 5 turns in which to do your damage.

So, builds and tactical options. Go!

Eh. I make a 20th level Wizard who wields 2 daggers via level-based feats. I then put them away and smoke the opposition with poorly-balanced magic.

You may want to clarify this somewhat, in terms of you must use melee-oriented classes (and even so, a CoDzilla who spends some feats to dual-wield will still be better than the melee-type).

EDIT: Nevermind. I need to read the ENTIRE post before responding. I missed the word "fundamental".

Rigeld2
2007-03-20, 10:13 AM
Build a character whose fundamental battle tactic involves using two weapons to deal damage to an enemy, and do the most damage possible to that enemy, within the following guidelines:
Emphasis mine. He did say you need to use two weapons to do the damage.

Douglas
2007-03-20, 10:17 AM
I've got an idea, though it may take some time to work out the details. Are custom items allowed? I would recommend limiting them to slot changes and combining multiple existing items into one with the standard 50% markup on the cheaper abilities.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 10:21 AM
...can I use more than two weapons? IE: Multiweapon Fighting?

RMS Oceanic
2007-03-20, 10:39 AM
What kind of enhancements are we allowed on the weapons?

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-20, 10:56 AM
Blade of Pain and Fear, Libris Mortis. Being able to hit with touch makes up for not getting Strength to damage(not that you will have much anyway, since you need high Dexterity to make the build somewhat viable).

iceman
2007-03-20, 11:07 AM
So if the target starts every turn 100 feet away then how in the world is anyone going to do any two weapon fighting? It will take the entire turn just to catch up with the target. In order for anyone to charge the target they would have to have a movement speed of 50 feet and with the fly spell you would be able to charge but unless you have the appropriate feats (and I don't have access to those books) you can only attack with one weapon. The main benefit of two weapon fighting is getting to use a full round attack action. In this scenario it would be more beneficial to just use a two handed weapon and go for one good hit.

Piccamo
2007-03-20, 11:11 AM
Are we allowed to use custom magic items?

Douglas
2007-03-20, 11:12 AM
There are ways to get a full attack and move in the same round. With the build I'm working on, I really don't much care whether you're close by or not. Edit: Actually, I'd much prefer that you not be within normal full attack range. A +20 damage bonus that only works when charging can make a pretty big difference, especially when multiplied by almost a dozen attacks.

Swordguy
2007-03-20, 11:12 AM
So if the target starts every turn 100 feet away then how in the world is anyone going to do any two weapon fighting? It will take the entire turn just to catch up with the target. In order for anyone to charge the target they would have to have a movement speed of 50 feet and with the fly spell you would be able to charge but unless you have the appropriate feats (and I don't have access to those books) you can only attack with one weapon. The main benefit of two weapon fighting is getting to use a full round attack action. In this scenario it would be more beneficial to just use a two handed weapon and go for one good hit.

You have to use magic items or actual magic to lock your opponent down. I was looking at things like Rings of Spell Storing (etc) or multiclassing to get that effect, but I have work to do. I'll do more later tonight when i have book access.

Jalil
2007-03-20, 11:13 AM
Will the enemy make attacks also?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 11:23 AM
Ooh, also: do multiple natural attacks count as TWF?

Jalil
2007-03-20, 11:25 AM
Are we allowed to use custom magic items?

QFE
(quoted for emphasis)

Douglas
2007-03-20, 11:29 AM
If custom magic items are allowed it gets way too easy. Everyone will have use-activated items of Lion's Charge/Psionic Lion's Charge. I personally think that changing an item's slot or combining existing items should be fine, but unlimited custom items gets broken way too easily.

Orzel
2007-03-20, 11:30 AM
Can you use an item to ready a forcecage when it flies by you thenTWF throwing axes through the bars?

Lapak
2007-03-20, 11:39 AM
Can you use an item to ready a forcecage when it flies by you thenTWF throwing axes through the bars?That's actually pretty inventive. :)

iceman
2007-03-20, 11:40 AM
You have to use magic items or actual magic to lock your opponent down. I was looking at things like Rings of Spell Storing (etc) or multiclassing to get that effect, but I have work to do. I'll do more later tonight when i have book access.

Okay so what everyone is saying is that this is an exersize in trying to keep the target in one spot with magic so that you can get your full attack off?

I suppose you could use two weapon rend & pounce from PHB2(?) but I unfortunately don't have access to the specs of those feats (as i'm sure quite a few others don't either).

The situational aspect of this challenge is going to force a lot of the builds to look very similar because to be able

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-20, 11:59 AM
I have to chime in and agree, in wondering why on earth the challenge involves the target always being so far away. That factor means that only a few very specific types of TWF-build will be effective, which are not necessarily the "best" builds in a more generic situation. For instance a TWFer optimized for this challenge might be very weak against a THF-full-attacker who WANTS to trade full-attacks with you.

I mean, I think maybe I see your idea, which is to set up a situation where it will be very hard for the TWFer to do his thing...if he can beat it, then he should be fine in situations where it's EASY to do his thing. But because of the specialization that optimizing a build encourages, you're very likely to get some TWFers who are awesome against this specific challenge, but much weaker in other, probably more common situations. It's like designing a fighter to beat a monster which is immune to all physical damage. He's going to have to do all kinds of trickery to defeat that thing, and it'll leave him wide open in most other encounters.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-20, 12:06 PM
Off the top of my head, TWPounce from PHB2, Dual Strike(Complete Adventurer), Tempest's TWSpring Attack(Complete Adventurer), Claws of the Leopard(Complete Adventurer) Psionic Lion's Charge, Snow Tiger Berserker(Shining South or Unapproachable East), Shadow Pounce(ditto, Telflammar Shadowlord/Crinti Shadow Marauder), Double Hit(Miniatures Handbook) are more or less the only sorts of ways you will get more than one weapon into play on a move+attack turn. Some pseudo-pounce would be Wildrunner(Races of the Wild), which can pounce in the same turn that it frenzies.

Swordguy
2007-03-20, 12:09 PM
Off the top of my head, TWPounce from PHB2, Dual Strike(Complete Adventurer), Tempest's TWSpring Attack(Complete Adventurer), Claws of the Leopard(Complete Adventurer) Psionic Lion's Charge, Snow Tiger Berserker(Shining South or Unapproachable East), Shadow Pounce(ditto, Telflammar Shadowlord/Crinti Shadow Marauder), Double Hit(Miniatures Handbook) are more or less the only sorts of ways you will get more than one weapon into play on a move+attack turn. Some pseudo-pounce would be Wildrunner(Races of the Wild), which can pounce in the same turn that it frenzies.

Jeez. None of which I have access to.

Let it be ground-bound, but fast (40-50' move rate). That gives people a chance...

Jasdoif
2007-03-20, 12:48 PM
Wings of Flying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wingsofFlying) would give you enough fly speed to charge 100 feet, and Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm) will let you full attack for TWF. You'd only need 15 power points to use it each round in the 5-round limit, so four 5-point cognizance crystals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/cognizanceCrystals.htm) would be fine for a psychic warrior 4 with the minimum 12 Wis.

All SRD.

For more esoteric options, 11,530gp would be enough to pay for a Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm) to give you knowledge of Psionic Lion's Charge, as long as you're capable of manifesting 2nd level powers (say, a three-level dip in psion).

Piccamo
2007-03-20, 01:22 PM
How do you want us to calculate damage? Would it be Percent Chance to hit times average damage? Could you also please post its flat footed AC?

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-20, 01:31 PM
How do you want us to calculate damage? Would it be Percent Chance to hit times average damage? Could you also please post its flat footed AC?

Judging from the Touch AC of 20, I would say it's probably 25 Flatfooted(Presume 35 is the fullest AC, with default base of 10, Touch being 20 means it has probably 10 AC from Dexterity+whatever else, perhaps 30 Dex from items+tome+wish?, so 35-10=25). 15 AC from Armour/Natural Armour/Shield. I think Deflection applies to both though so Flatfooted AC might be higher than 25.

Piccamo
2007-03-20, 01:33 PM
Judging from the Touch AC of 20, I would say it's probably 25 Flatfooted(Presume 35 is the fullest AC, with default base of 10, Touch being 20 means it has probably 10 AC from Dexterity+whatever else, perhaps 30 Dex from items+tome+wish?, so 35-10=25). 15 AC from Armour/Natural Armour/Shield. I think Deflection applies to both though so Flatfooted AC might be higher than 25.

That is what I had deduced as well. I just wanted a hard and fast answer since the build I'm going with calculates from Flat Footed.

Shisumo
2007-03-20, 02:12 PM
Wow, lots of replies already! Okay, more explanation (which will be edited into the original post as well):


Are custom items allowed?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. If it's in a book, it's legal. If it's not, it's not.


...can I use more than two weapons? IE: Multiweapon Fighting?

I'd rather not. It makes it too hard to compare against the builds that don't.


Can you use an item to ready a forcecage when it flies by you thenTWF throwing axes through the bars?

Locking down the opponent is a valid tactic, and I'd have to say that throwing axes qualifies (though it isn't what I was thinking when I suggested this).


How do you want us to calculate damage? Would it be Percent Chance to hit times average damage? Could you also please post its flat footed AC?

That's exactly how I would calculate damage.

Flat-footed AC is the aforementioned 25.


I mean, I think maybe I see your idea, which is to set up a situation where it will be very hard for the TWFer to do his thing...if he can beat it, then he should be fine in situations where it's EASY to do his thing. But because of the specialization that optimizing a build encourages, you're very likely to get some TWFers who are awesome against this specific challenge, but much weaker in other, probably more common situations. It's like designing a fighter to beat a monster which is immune to all physical damage. He's going to have to do all kinds of trickery to defeat that thing, and it'll leave him wide open in most other encounters.

The reason for the distance requirement is simple: the inability to get off a full attack is one of the largest obstacles to TWF keeping up with, say, THF - as is frequently pointed out by Bears With Lasers and others, fighters can't keep up with dragons or teleporting balors because of movement rates; thus, distance issues. Same thing for why the opponent is flying.

Piccamo
2007-03-20, 02:16 PM
Are custom items allowed?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. If it's in a book, it's legal. If it's not, it's not.
Rules for making custom items are in a book (the DMG), so does that make them legal or not? Your answer is vague. The items themselves are not in the book, but the guidelines for their creation are.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-20, 02:18 PM
I repeat for emphasis:


do multiple natural attacks count as TWF?

Shisumo
2007-03-20, 02:24 PM
Rules for making custom items are in a book (the DMG), so does that make them legal or not? Your answer is vague. The items themselves are not in the book, but the guidelines for their creation are.

No custom items.


do multiple natural attacks count as TWF?

Whoops, sorry, Fax. For the same reason as Multiattack, I'm gonna say "no."

ravenkith
2007-03-20, 03:36 PM
My gut response is to build a shadowpouncer/caster hybrid...I'm afb, so this may be off, but...

Something like:
Strongheart Halfling Fighter 4/Wizard (Martial) 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Telflammar Shadow Lord 5/Eldritch Knight 4

Key Stats: DEX (20 base), INT, STR & CON

Feats: 7 Character, 1 Racial, 6 Fighter
Must haves: Arcane Strike, Shock Trooper? TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Stand Still?
Also rans: Weapon Focus: Short Sword, Weapon Spec: Short Sword, Weapon Finesse

Casts: 11th level
Must Have Spells: Dimension door, Girallon's Blessing, Shield, Greater Mage Armor, Darkness, Haste Resilient Sphere? (Prep time)

Gear: 2 + 2 (Minimum) Short swords of force, shock, fire, acid, cold
1 amulet natural armor + 6
1 tome of dex + 5?

Enh, it's a start. I think yall can see where I'm going with it..

The Gilded Duke
2007-03-20, 08:54 PM
Hill Giant (12 Giant HD +4 Level Adjustment) Bloodstorm Blade 3, Fighter 1

Hill Giants can throw their rocks up to 120 feet unlike Stone Giants they only use one hand to do so.

Bloodstorm Blade level 2, Thunderous Throw allows him to take all his ranged attacks as normal melee attacks.

Feats: Point Blank Shot
Feat to get Iron Heart Strike
Feat to get Iron Heart Stance
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

Ill figure out the rest later.

Douglas
2007-03-20, 09:31 PM
Human Swordsage 12/Bloodclaw Master 3/Master of Nine 5

Feats: Adaptive Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, TWF, ITWF, GTWF

Ability Scores: 16 base in each of strength, dex, and wisdom. 3 stat bumps go to dex to qualify for GTWF, the other two to strength. +6 belt and periapt for strength and wisdom, +4 tome/manual, for final scores of 28 strength, 19 dex, and 26 wisdom.

BAB +14

Items:
Wings of Flying for 60-foot fly speed
Boots of Speed for extra attack and 30 more feet of fly speed
A pair of +5 keen wounding valorous kukris

Total attack bonus: 14 BAB + 9 str + 1 Weapon Focus (from Swordsage 1) + 2 (charging) + 2 Mastery of Nine (every attack is going to be a strike) + 1 Haste + 5 enhancement + 1 additional strength from Shifting = 35.

Total attacks: 3 from BAB, 3 offhand from TWF feats, 1 from Haste, 4 from Raging Mongoose boost

Final attack progression: 35/35/35/35/35/35/35/30/30/25/25

Damage per attack: 1d4 base + 10 strength (offhand gets full bonus thanks to Bloodclaw Master) + 8 wisdom (Swordsage Insightful Strike) + 5 enhancement + 9 Mastery of Nine (at least one maneuver prepared from all 9 disciplines) + 20 Leading The Charge stance = 1d4 + 52 damage per hit, all doubled by Valorous to 2d4+104. After subtracting DR, that's 99 average damage per hit.

Tactics: First round, use Raging Mongoose boost and Pouncing Charge strike. On subsequent rounds, regain all maneuvers with a full round action through Adaptive Style and use White Raven Tactics on yourself to act again with 1 lower initiative. Use your second turn in the round to Pouncing Charge with Raging Mongoose again. With 90 feet fly speed, you can reach anywhere within 100 feet except directly overhead with a charge, and even then you're only missing the last 5 feet.

Not counting crits, that's 7 attacks that only miss on a 1, 2 that need a 5 or higher, and 2 that need a 10 or higher. That's 7*.95 + 2*.8 + 2*.55 = 9.35 hits per round on average, for 99 average damage each. Total 925.65 damage and 9.35 constitution damage from Wounding per round.

Critical hits: On all 11 attacks, anything high enough to threaten a crit is high enough to hit. For the first 7 attacks, chance of crit is .3*.95. Total crits is 7*.3*.95 + 2*.3*.8 + 2*.3*.55 = 2.805 critical hits per round on average, each one adding another 99 average damage.

Final damage per round: 1203.345 damage and 9.35 constitution damage.

Total damage over 5 rounds: 6016.725 plus 46.75 consitution damage.

If the fight lasts long enough for giving up 4 attacks on the first round to be worth it, I can add any one other stance without ending Leading The Charge for 10 rounds. I haven't done a thorough check for good options, but Blood in the Water would be one possibility, giving me +1 to hit and damage for each critical hit I get, stacking fully and lasting through the entire battle. If the opponent decides getting charged hurts too much so he should stay where he is and trade normal full attacks, I lose the +20 from Leading The Charge but gain yet another attack from the Flashing Sun strike, admittedly at the cost of -2 on all my attacks in addition to not getting the +2 for charging. In that situation, Blood in the Water would definitely be useful, but I don't feel like working out the numbers right now.

I still have almost 150k left to spend on defensive items, and my +8 wisdom bonus is already a pretty good start on that as I get it to AC from Swordsage and can even wear a mithral breastplate without losing it.

deadseashoals
2007-03-21, 04:09 AM
Human Crusader 1 / Egoist 6 / Slayer 9 / Sanctified Mind 4

Feats: Practiced Manifester, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Overchannel, Track (plus one more bonus psion feat)

Necessary Powers: offensive precognition, offensive prescience, psionic lion's charge, psychofeedback, temporal acceleration, moment of prescience, greater metamorphosis.

Starting Stats: Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 8 Cha 8
Stats @ 20: Str 24 Dex 26 Con 20 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 8

Items: +5 valorous sizing wounding keen longsword (x2), belt of giant strength +6, boots of speed, headband of intellect +4, amulet of health +6, gloves of dexterity +6, manual of quickness in action +1, manual of gainful exercise +4, wand of greater invisibility, wings of flying

In the first round of combat, manifest an overchanneled temporal acceleration @ ML 23rd to get 4 rounds of apparent time. Use those rounds to ready for combat as follows:

Round 1: greater metamorphosis into a titan, overchanneled swift offensive precognition (+6 bonus)
Round 2: psionic moment of prescience (13 pp)
Round 3: use magic device on the wand of greater invisibility discharging psionic moment of prescience for a +30 bonus, overchanneled swift offensive prescience (+7 bonus)
Round 4: psychofeedback and transfer 19 Con into Str, psionic lion's charge

This sequence costs 109 power points, and causes 9d8 damage from overchanneling. Afterwards, your Str is 43 (titan) + 6 (enhancement) + 4 (inherent) + 19 (psychofeedback) = 72.

Then just charge and use psionic lion's charge every round, overchanneling for 1 to trigger furious counterstrike, power attacking for full. With a fly speed of 90 (good) and a reach of 15 ft., even if the enemy moves 100 ft. directly above, we can catch him.

Your attack bonus is: +17 (BAB) - 17 (power attack) + 31 (Str) - 2 (size) - 2 (TWF) + 5 (enhancement) + 6 (insight) + 2 (invisible) + 2 (charging) + 1 (haste) + 1 (furious counterstrike)

Resulting in a full attack of +44/+44/+39/+34/+29 (main) and +44/+39/+34 (off) vs a flat-footed AC of 25. All attacks hit except on a natural 1 and threaten from 17-20 (19% chance to crit), which results in 4.75 main hand hits and 2.85 off hand hits per round, as well as 0.95 main hand confirmed criticals and 0.57 off hand confirmed criticals.

Damage is (after doubling due to valorous): 6d6 + 10 (enhancement) + 62 (Str) + 34 (PA) + 14 (insight) + 2 (furious counterstrike) + 20 (leading the charge) on the main hand (6d6+142, 163 avg), and 6d8 + 10 (enhancement) + 30 (Str) + 34 (PA) + 14 (insight) on the off hand (6d6+110, 131 avg). On a critical hit, the damage goes up to 9d6+213 (244.5 avg) on the main hand, and 9d8+165 (196.5 avg) on the off hand (two doublings is a tripling).

After accounting for the DR 10/-, this results in an average full attack damage of:

4.75*(163-10) + 2.85*(131-10) + 0.95*(244.5-167) + 0.57*(196.5-131) = 1182.56, plus 7.6 con dmg

(or if you're counting a valorous crit as x2 -> x4, then it becomes:
4.75*(163-10) + 2.85*(131-10) + 0.95*163 + 0.57*131 = 1301.12, plus 7.6 con dmg)

So, over 5 rounds, the final average damage is: 6,099, and 38 con (or 6,688 if valorous stacks with crits).

Flaws and contingent spells could add more, but that would just be cheesy :smallbiggrin:

marjan
2007-03-21, 04:52 AM
If I take ranger can I asume that this thing is my favoured enemy?

Shisumo
2007-03-21, 08:37 AM
If I take ranger can I asume that this thing is my favoured enemy?

[Looks over deadseashoals' entry - whistles]

Given what you're up against, sure, why not?

marjan
2007-03-21, 08:43 AM
[Looks over deadseashoals' entry - whistles]

Given what you're up against, sure, why not?

Ah, nevermind it won't help me enough. I give up.:smalleek:

To deadseashoals: It looks like quite good build for beating this guy. I would suggest to you to trade +1 enhancement for this-guy-bane enhancement - it will give you +1 to hit (which you don't need) and 2d6+1 damage (which you probably don't need but won't hurt).

PS: The build would probably be much easier to understand if I knew anything about psionics. :smalltongue:

Douglas
2007-03-21, 09:07 AM
Oh, right, didn't remember about DR or, much more importantly, the Valorous weapon quality. I've still got more than enough gold to add that, so let me go back and redo my calculations...

There we go. deadseashoals, I've got you beat by about 750 damage and 8 con damage, and I did it without either using polymorph cheese or assuming that this CR 20 critter can't see through invisibility - See Invisibility, True Seeing, Blindsight, and similar abilities are pretty common once you get that high, so invisibility isn't very reliable. What's more, I can keep it up all day long with no limit, where your combo probably runs out of power points after only the second or third time and causes damage to you. :smallcool:

Oh yeah, I don't have to spend XP on it either. :smalltongue:

Edit: Just noticed you went with the bonus from Valorous not being doubled by crits. I'm not sure whether that's correct or not, but if it is that just brings my damage down to a mere 2 points less than yours per round, 10 total over the 5 rounds, and I still have you beat for con damage and the other points mentioned above in this post.

marjan
2007-03-21, 09:21 AM
BTW what is valorous and which book is it from.

Douglas
2007-03-21, 09:32 AM
+1 weapon special ability that doubles damage on a charge. It's from Unapproachable East.

deadseashoals
2007-03-21, 01:01 PM
Ah, I was kind of tired last night, and glazed over the part of douglas' build where he uses leading the charge. Not bad to add to my build, and due to the ToB multiclassing rules, my manifester level is high enough to make it worthwhile. Now my build does a lot more damage, but douglas' build is way more robust in that he can do it without limit, and without taking tons of ability damage.

Now I'm thinking that a Warblade / Transmuter / Jade Phoenix Mage / Abjurant Champion would combine the best of both builds, being able to potentially cast shapechange, ferocity of sanguine rage, and bite of the weretiger and use Arcane Strike, while utilizing pouncing charge / raging mongoose / white raven tactics loop that douglas described.

Douglas
2007-03-21, 01:55 PM
You may have beaten me this time, deadseashoals, but I'll be back! Just you wait, I'll be back! *shakes fist at deadseashoals before disappearing in a puff of smoke* :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, you may have edged me out in damage, but we're both well past the point where almost any opponent not well past our level would be dead several times over in just the first round (even the Tarrasque would take several rounds to regen back to consciousness), and my build is much more viable in an actual campaign. Besides the entire Polymorph line being pure cheese and you having made a few likely unwarranted assumptions (the challenge didn't specify otherwise, but quite a number of critters near CR 20 can see through invisibility), 19 points of constitution burn makes yours have a use limit more in terms of times per month than per day. It would take literally weeks for all of that to heal normally, and magic can't just make it disappear like it can for ordinary ability damage/drain.

The Warblade/Transmuter/etc you suggest might also be pretty powerful, but it would go through spell slots ridiculously fast with having to spend one on each and every individual attack that uses Arcane Strike and it would have a lot of lost damage to make up for with having a lower initiator level for Leading the Charge, no wisdom to damage, and no Mastery of Nine from my build and no Offensive Prescience from yours.

deadseashoals
2007-03-21, 02:14 PM
I agree with most of your points, douglas; this is a really strange and contrived scenario, and not a very good indicator of what actually makes a good TWF build. Especially not when the route to "winning" seems to be very clearly to pounce with valorous weapons, which seems like the antithesis of a realistic TWF build, and is more akin to an ubercharger build.

As for the arcane gish build... It wouldn't lose that much IL (it would most likely be IL 15), and it could make up that damage and the loss of offensive prescience with ferocity of sanguine rage (buff spell from Dragon Magic, adds more melee damage than offensive prescience). It would also "only" have to burn two spells to arcane strike per round, since it affects one weapon for one round, and you can easily dial down the spell level you burn for arcane strike if you don't want to nova.

Shisumo
2007-03-21, 02:41 PM
I agree with most of your points, douglas; this is a really strange and contrived scenario, and not a very good indicator of what actually makes a good TWF build. Especially not when the route to "winning" seems to be very clearly to pounce with valorous weapons, which seems like the antithesis of a realistic TWF build, and is more akin to an ubercharger build.

I don't know about "strange and contrived," but I admit there were a few things I was interested in seeing, and that's why I posited the scenario this way. IME (and that's a hefty caveat indeed), the biggest obstacle, and probably the single biggest difference between TWF and THF, is the ability to successfully get off a full attack. It's an issue at low levels, and as level goes up, the increase in enemies that can fly/teleport/BeFasterThanYou only worsens the problem. There are ways to resolve the Power Attack issue; there are ways to reduce the off-hand attack penalties. What I was interested in seeing was how to handle the question of mobility, which I have long believed was the single largest issue facing TWFs (this runs parallel to my similar belief about it being the single largest obstacle to effective high-level fighters).

Also, while I freely admit that damage totals such as are described here are ludicrous in actual play, it is awfully fun to see people type things like "6,099 damage."

All that said, though, I'd be interested to see what you consider a "legitimate" TWF CharOp scenario that is more likely to produce "a good TWF build," and how it would differ from my suggestion. (No snark there - I am not, as previously established, any good at CharOp stuff, but I might be willing to toss my hat into the ring if I had any decent ideas...)

Douglas
2007-03-21, 02:41 PM
I missed that Arcane Strike lasts for the whole round rather than just the one attack. It would still have to go through high level slots pretty rapidly to make up the damage unless the build has some sizable damage bonuses I'm not aware of. Unfortunately, I don't have Dragon Magic right now, so I can't look up Ferocity of Sanguine Rage. I'm sure it can easily hit the 1-round kill mark on almost any CR 20 foe anyway, I just don't know if it can get up in the vicinity of 1200 damage.

Without charging my build's damage does drop a lot, but it should still kill most opponents with a single full attack. I'd even get one more attack to round out the full dozen with the Flashing Sun strike. The charging damage could be toned down a bit to free up resources for more general stuff pretty easily while still leaving it high enough to be very powerful, so I think my build actually isn't too far off from a reasonable build for actual play (disregarding that it would likely annihilate the opposition too easily and quickly to be fun for long). I'm not going to run the numbers, but I'm quite sure yours could kill a CR 20 enemy in one round without charging too.

Douglas
2007-03-21, 03:02 PM
Also, while I freely admit that damage totals such as are described here are ludicrous in actual play, it is awfully fun to see people type things like "6,099 damage."
Don't forget the constitution damage. Even if it doesn't kill the target outright by dropping con to 0, that adds another 20 or so damage per hit die of the target.

Hmm, this probably isn't enough for a "good" challenge by itself, but I have a few ideas that should help get closer:
1) The target should be assumed to be able to see invisible.
2) There's a pretty good chance it will have reach, forcing the challenger to either take an AoO or tumble on the approach (oh look, Swordsages have tumble as a class skill :smallbiggrin:) unless he has at least as much reach as the target.
3) Most methods of moving farther than 5 feet are not compatible with full-round actions, many of them are standard actions, and simply moving away provokes an AoO; in many, though definitely not all, cases, the target will willingly stay in place after the initial charge either to make full attacks of its own or just to not provoke.
4) A viable build in actual play will have to be able to execute its powerful moves fairly frequently; there should be multiple targets that must be tackled separately, and any buffs that don't last all day must be redone for each target.
5) Most bosses will not be encountered alone. Even if you take down the BBEG in the first round, his minions/bodyguards will still be there to fight back. The build should be able to survive a reasonable amount of counterattacks. Dropping your AC to -10 with Shock Trooper may let you Power Attack one target into oblivion, but it'll be hard to survive everyone else Power Attacking right back on their turns.

Edit: Forgot to mention a list of ways to get multiple attacks despite having to move. Lion's Charge and Psionic Lion's Charge give full attacks for charging. Some races have the Pounce ability which does the same thing constantly. The Dual Strike feat from Complete Adventurer (I think) allows attacking with two weapons as a standard action. The Hustle psionic power allows moving as a swift action, leaving your full round action available for a full attack. There's a maneuver in ToB (in the Tiger Claw discipline, I think) that allows jumping as a swift action. The Pouncing Charge strike gives a full attack at the end of a charge. The Spring Attack feat chain is continued in PHBII, allowing two iterative attacks in addition to the normal one when using Spring Attack if you follow the feat tree to the end.

The Gilded Duke
2007-03-21, 09:04 PM
New idea, Scout, Psychic Warrior, Champion of Correllion, who is an Elf

Using two Elven Thinblades, with Elegant Strike, and Shadow Blade to get 2x dex damage on each hit.

Elf
1. Psychic Warrior (Weapon Profeciency-Elven Thinblade, Combat Expertise)
2. Psychic Warrior (Mounted Combat)
3. Psychic Warrior (Dodge)
4. Psychic Warrior - BAB +3
5. Fighter - (Weapon Focus Lance) BAB +4
6. Champion of Correllion (Rideby Attack, Weapon Finesse)
7. Champion of Corellion- Elegent Strike - BAB +6
8. Fighter (Martial Study-Shadow)
9. Fighter (Spirited Charge, Two Weapon Fighting)
10. Fighter - BAB +9
11. Cavalier
12. Cavalier- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Cavalier
14. Cavaleir
15. Cavalier - (Martial Stance-Child of Shadow)
16. Cavalier
17. Cavalier
18. Cavalier - Shadow Blade
19. Cavalier
20. Cavalier BAB 19

Relevent Abilities Gained from Cavalier-
Unstoppable Charge 5 times a day- Weapon Damage x4 during charge.
Mounted Weapon Bonus to swords +3

Relevent Abilities Gained from Champion of Corellion- Dex to weapon damage
Relevent Abilities Gained from Psychic Warrior - Ability to manifest psionic lion's charge

Other Relevent Abilities- Shadow Blade- Dex to Weapon Damage,
Martial Stance Child of Shadow- Concealment while moving
Two Weapon Fighting- Two extra attacks with offhand per turn

BAB
+17, +12, + 7, +2, Off +15, +10

Dex 20 - +5 (18+Elf)
Dex 25 - +7 (Levels)
Dex 31 - +10 (36,000 gloves)
Dex 36 - +15 (Manual)

On the Two Weapons- That Enchantment that Doubles on a Charge, Vicious, Flaming, Icey, Acid

Rhino Hide Armor (+2d6 on a charge). Riding a Pegasus for a mounted charge attack.

Masterwork Elven Thinblade 1d8 18-20x2

+33, +28, + 23, +18, Off +31, +26

+2 for Invisible Attacker

+35, +30, +25, +20, Off +33, +28 against Flatfooted AC 25

Each Attack- 1d8*5 +1 +30 + 2d6 +2d6 +1d6 +1d6 +1d6
72 Average Damage on non-crit
-10 Damage Reduction = 62 Average Damage on non-crit
All Attacks but one are gaurenteed to hit on a non-1. The final attack only has a 1/5 chance of missing.

1550 + 248=1798 Damage on Average without calculating Critical hits

Roderick_BR
2007-03-21, 09:54 PM
This will make people groan (for use of feats no one likes :p )
Level 20 fighter, starting Str 15, Dex 15, Int 13, and others abilities around 10-12. Enhance Dex to 19 with magic, strenght to 20 with level, plus a belt of str +6.
Your base attack is +35 (20 + 8 from str, plus +2 from W.Focus and Greater, and a +5 weapon). Using two brilliant energy weapons, you can hit all 4 normal attacks, assuming some of it is not from natural armor. Get TWF, Improved , and greater, dual strike, combat expertise, and improved trip.
1. Assuming you lose the initiative, you can try to do attacks of opportunity when he moves away (excluding teleport by magic item), that you can attack twice.
2. Prepare an action to trip him twice. If you success, you try to keep him down, maybe trying to pin him down, with grapple or itens. Nets can work.
3. If you manage to get a grip at him, you can start mauling. With Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (groan 1), you can use two warmaces (groan 2), with Monkey Grip (groan 3), for a total of 3d6+13 with each weapon, with a -5 for each attack (-2 TWF, -2 Monkey Grip, -1 for warmace). You can hit with +25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10. You can assume around 6 the attacks can hit, if the brilliant energy works. An average of 23.5 damage/attack. If you hit 5, it's 141 damage/round. Unfortunately, since you would have to keep moving, you wouldn't be able to beat the creature in 5 turns.

3. If the creature is airborne: Cape of flight, boots of speed, some teleport item. Use the boots to gain one extra partial action, use it to activate and teleport, and use the cape to stay flying. You can teleport near the creature and still have a full round. However, non wand/staff teleport itens usually have short range. Yeah, difficult.

Ah, if you want your feet free for other item, like a boot of striding and springing, you can use a full mithral plate of speed, though it'll reduce your overal speed.

Lemur
2007-03-21, 10:48 PM
Unless I'm misreading the post, you need to give the creature's saving throw bonuses. It might make a difference.

Edit: Nevermind, I'm just out of it.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-21, 11:52 PM
5) Most bosses will not be encountered alone. Even if you take down the BBEG in the first round, his minions/bodyguards will still be there to fight back. The build should be able to survive a reasonable amount of counterattacks. Dropping your AC to -10 with Shock Trooper may let you Power Attack one target into oblivion, but it'll be hard to survive everyone else Power Attacking right back on their turns.

From the people who brought you Shock Trooper and Combat Brute, it's Elusive Target! Able to negate Power Attack, and cause your flankers to stab each other All yours, for the low, low price of Dodge(and some miscellaneous other things). Elusive Target may not be for everyone. Consult your local cleric before undertaking any tactical training. Some settling may occur. Please allow 403200 to 604800 rounds for delivery. Side effects may include impotence, erectile dysfunction, diarrhoea, constipation, and your DM whacking you over the head with your own copy of the DMG, PHB and Monster Manual.

Douglas
2007-03-22, 12:55 AM
That'll stop the first Power Attacker once and one flanker for one attack per round. The rest will notice what happened the first time and not make the same mistake, and their 95% hit rate will still hurt even without Power Attack. Plus, it's yet another feat in a build that already needs a lot of them. It helps, but it's not necessarily enough all by itself.

Lemur
2007-03-22, 12:58 AM
This probably isn't all that optimized, but I hope it stands out as being unique.

I'm still working on smoothing it out as well, but this should give you a rough idea of the concept.

Leland Molehill, Strongheart Halfling
Ranger 1/Fighter 14/Master Thrower 5

Stats:
Str 13
Dex 36 (Leland has purchased +6 Dex gloves, Dex Manual +5, and put his 5 points from character level into dex)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Shuriken)
Weapon Focus (Shuriken)
Far Shot
Rapid Shot
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Power Attack
Brutal Throw
Power Throw
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
(1 feat left over)
Track
Quick Draw
Snatch Arrows


Skills
Ride (Pegasus) 23 ranks
Sleight of Hand 4 ranks
Handle Animal 23 ranks
Unallocated skill points: 18

Equipment:
100 +5 Distance Seeking Flaming Frost Shock Shuriken (assuming custom weapons don't count as "custom items")
Manual of Quickness of Action +5 (used prior to combat)
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Trained Pegasus
Exotic Military Saddle
Boots of Speed
Left over: 169,820 GP

Thrown Weapon Tricks:
Palm Throw
Trip Shot
Weak Spot

Okay, Leland's attack bonus with his shuriken is +42 (BAB +20, Dex +13, Size +1, Halfling +1, Shuriken +5, Greater Weapon Focus +2)

Using TWF and Rapid Shot, it goes down to +38.

Adding the extra attack from using boots of speed, Leland gets 18 attacks from a full attack (4 from BAB, 3 from Greater TWF, 1 from Rapid shot, 1 from Haste, all multiplied by 2 from Palm Throw), however according to the CW errata, only 9 of these attacks can benefit from Power Throw.

Leland's attacks:
(+38/+38/+38/+38/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23) x2

Leland doesn't get his strength bonus to damage, but he can still get bonuses from Power Throw while using the Weak Spot special ability. In addition, each of his attacks counts as a trip attempt with a +17 bonus to the roll, in addition to doing normal damage. He can guide his pegasus as a free action to get within 30 ft. of his target (within short range) without needing to double move, so he doesn't take any penalties from mounted ranged fighting.

I still have to figure out what the actual damage will turn out to, and I'm not sure it will even be all that impressive, what with the damage reduction and all. Still, I hope this character will be able to stand at least on it's comic value, which has to count for something.

Lemur
2007-03-22, 01:47 AM
Okay, I've done a bit of math. I'm not certain what the optimum level of power throw would be, but I've decided to set it at 19, since that gives Leland a 95% chance of hitting on his first 8 attacks.

Leland's power throw attack bonus:
(+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4) x2

Leland's base damage is 10 (1 for shuriken, 5 for weapon enhancement, 4 for Greater Weapon Specialization). This is negated by the creature's DR on each hit.

9 of the 18 attacks get +19 bonus damage from power throw.
All of the attacks get an average of 10 assorted energy damage from the shuriken's enhancements.

Probabilities of hitting per attack bonus:
+19: 95%
+14: 70%
+9: 45%
+4: 20%

So, damage with power throw is 10+19+10-10, for a total of 29 damage per hit, 10 of which is assorted energy damage. The other 9 attacks without power throw are 10+10-10 for a total of 10 damage, which consists only of assorted energy damage.

Leland has improved critical, courtesy of master thrower, but I don't feel like figuring out how critical hits affect the damage. I doubt it would really be significant in any case.

Damage formula:
Power throw: 29*.95*4+29*.70*2+29*.45*2+29*.20 = 182.7
Palm throw: 10*.95*4+10*.70*2+10*.45*2+10*.20 = 63
182+63 = 245

Grand total average damage per round to the creature in question is 245 damage. In 5 rounds time, that adds up to 1225 damage. Also, the creature in question is most likely going to be knocked on his ass every round from multiple shuriken making trip attemps at +17.

It's not the greatest thing ever, but given the sources used, I think it's okay. It's not too often you see a halfling on a pegasus throwing things at you. Of course, there's probably a reason for that. Hmm...:smallwink:

Sources used:
PHB
DMG
Monster Manual
Complete Warrior
Complete Adventurer

Jalil
2007-03-22, 05:32 AM
This is something I've been tossing arouns since we started, and was finally able to work it, after custom items were banned.
Catfolk +1LA(RotW) Scout4(CAdv)/fighter2/rogue9/Assassin4

Feats: 7 character, 2 fighter, bonus scout feat
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Telling Blow(PHBII)
Weapon Focus:Kukri
Disemboweling Strike(CS)
Catfolk Pounce(RotW)
Swift Ambusher(CS)
Improved Skirmish(CS)
Improved Critical

Assassin Spell: Distract Assailant(Cadv)

Stats:
Starting 18,13,10,15,8,8
After Racial 18,19,10,15,8,10
@20: 34,19,10,22,8,10

Weapons:
+4 Blessed(Boed) Kukri of Elemental Wounding
Blessed +1(BoED) Fire, frost, Shock+3(DMG) Wounding +2(DMG)

+4 Blessed(Boed) Kukri of Elemental Wounding
Blessed +1(BoED) Fire, frost, Shock+3(DMG) Wounding +2(DMG)

Other Items
Celestial Armor
Belt of Str +6
Headband of int +6
Book of Str +5
Book of Int +1

The rest is self explanatory. round 1, activate Fly from the armor. Fly up 30' end.
round 2. Cast Distract assailant as a swift action, then charge with Catfolk Pounce to get a full attack. 3 chalkboards of math later, I find damage to be 330.4 plus 18.9 con, from disemboweling strike and wounding weapons.
With crits, it goes up to 406.15 + 22.65 con, or 11.325 damage per HD.

Do that 3 more times, and we get a total of 1,624.6 + 90.6 con. thats 45.3 dmg per HD. Assume 20(which is really low) thats another 906, assumeing that 90 con dmg doesn't kill it outright.

marjan
2007-03-22, 05:43 AM
@ Jalil: Nice one. But mixing assasins and BoED? Blasphemy I say. :smalltongue:

Jalil
2007-03-22, 10:15 AM
It's not nearly as high as the other posters, but I like it. It's better with lion's charge bracers, swash=>rogue, ends up with 20d6 per hit, this only has 10+1d4con. still.

Douglas
2007-03-22, 10:23 AM
Bah, come back when your damage per round, not including con damage, has four digits. :smalltongue:

Oh, and the con damage from Wounding weapons is not increased by crits.

Edit: 1d4 constitution damage per hit? How are you getting that? Wounding weapons only do 1 con damage per hit, so unless one of the feats from Complete Scoundrel adds more or I missed something else, that part's wrong.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-22, 10:49 AM
Hmm, Arterial Strike? Hamstring? Staggering Strike? Basically, anything that either damages him without needing to be there(Arterial), or prevents him from moving(and if he's porting away at the start of each round, that's just railroading/cheating/DEM), like Hamstring(lower speed) or Staggering Strike(Staggered, as though he had as many non-lethal as current HP) should help.

Edit: Porting is definitely going to screw it up. Just say he can fly/leap. If the guy is porting away once a round, he's pretty much winning already. Even being able to fly/leap/run 100 feet away means the TWFer will never be able to hit him two rounds in a row without his own form of teleportation(or at least 50' base movement, if charging).

Jalil
2007-03-22, 04:07 PM
@douglas
Disemboweling strike trades 4d6 SA for 1d4 con.

Just did a little check, regardless of it's HP, this build should kill anything by round 3, given that the highest con in core is 39, from the titan. I can do 44 by then. How does that stack?

Stephen_E
2007-03-22, 10:47 PM
Q: Can you assume a custom god with the Shuriken as his favoured weapon.

To people worrying about the fly/movement restriction, I suggest you think Leadership - Cohort Mount.

Their are several classes that give you full attacks while your mount moves you around, and if you're using Ranged TWF it's even easier.

Stephen

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-22, 11:31 PM
Q: Can you assume a custom god with the Shuriken as his favoured weapon.

To people worrying about the fly/movement restriction, I suggest you think Leadership - Cohort Mount.

Their are several classes that give you full attacks while your mount moves you around, and if you're using Ranged TWF it's even easier.

Stephen

This falls back to the main weakness of the challenge though. It restricts the possible builds to either mounted TWFers(or very fast pouncers), or teleporting/flying characters.

Stephen_E
2007-03-23, 01:07 AM
This falls back to the main weakness of the challenge though. It restricts the possible builds to either mounted TWFers(or very fast pouncers), or teleporting/flying characters.

That's because without that your high level TWFer IS weak. The only exception would be a Whirling Dervish build, but even then getting the speed to cover 100' +5' per additional attack in a single move.

Stephen

Shisumo
2007-03-23, 08:13 AM
Q: Can you assume a custom god with the Shuriken as his favoured weapon.

Do you need to? Can't you just be a cleric of no deity that chooses the War Domain and picks Shuriken? Or is this a spiritual weapon-ish question?


This falls back to the main weakness of the challenge though. It restricts the possible builds to either mounted TWFers(or very fast pouncers), or teleporting/flying characters.

Show me a meleeist build that isn't completely irrelevant at 20th level without those things.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-23, 08:28 AM
Show me a meleeist build that isn't completely irrelevant at 20th level without those things.

Leap Attacker? Order of the Bow Initiate? The whole problem with TWF in the first place(beyond being a Feat Singularity) is needing to be standing there trading Full Attack actions with your opponent(or somehow keeping your opponent within your "zone" while staying out of reach of theirs). Everybody knows Fighters(catch-all, not just the base class) can't touch a caster beyond about level 15 anyways. I'm not trying to say that the challenge is irrelevant, just that it puts an already restrictive/heavy investment(Multiple Feats, only some weapons, certain tactics) style even deeper into specialisation, which puts you in a vulnerable spot.

Shisumo
2007-03-23, 08:38 AM
Leap Attacker?

is still gong to be unable to function unless they can get to their targets. At 20th level, the vast majority of those targets will be flying and/or too fast to keep up with. That's just the facts of the game.


Order of the Bow Initiate?

is, uh, not a meleeist.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-23, 09:05 AM
is still gong to be unable to function unless they can get to their targets. At 20th level, the vast majority of those targets will be flying and/or too fast to keep up with. That's just the facts of the game.

is, uh, not a meleeist.

Well, neither is a build utilising 2 weapons and Power Throw, so obviously, this challenge is not just about a melee TWFer, ne?

Shisumo
2007-03-23, 11:40 AM
Well, neither is a build utilising 2 weapons and Power Throw, so obviously, this challenge is not just about a melee TWFer, ne?

Uh, I'm confused. First you said


It restricts the possible builds to either mounted TWFers(or very fast pouncers), or teleporting/flying characters.

which doesn't really allow for two weapons and Power Throw either. Regardless, though, in response to your statement, I said


Show me a meleeist build that isn't completely irrelevant at 20th level without those things.

(emphasis added), and you suggested an Order of the Bow Initiate, which is not, as I said, a meleeist. What exactly are we discussing at this point?

What I'm trying to get at is that CR 20 opponents are very rarely going to stand there and let you get a full attack off on them, and the inability to do so is a great weakness of TWFing. Ranged attacks are, indeed, one way to get around the issue. So are teleportation, fast flight, and using mounts. In any case, though, it is a significant and valid obstacle that needs to be overcome in actual play.

kme
2007-03-23, 01:02 PM
Human Rogue1 / Warblade1 / ranger1 / assassin1 / psion(telepath)5 / slayer7 / Telfamar Shadowlord4

abilities: str dex con int wis cha
starting- 16 16 10 16 8 8
modified-22(28) 19 10 20(26) 8 8

relevant feats:
stormguard warrior,expanded knowlege(dimension hop),TWF,ITWF,GTWF

BAB 15

total power points:106 base+44 int =150

relevant skills:
Use magic device+22

relevant powers:
dimension hop, psionic dimension door, schism, temporal acceleration, precognition offensive

relevant items:
2x +5 wounding keen flaming frost kukris, manual of gainfull exersise +4, boots of speed, wand of greater invisibility,
wings of flying

total attack bonus: +15 bab, +5 weapon, +9 strenght, +1 haste,+2 invisible, -2 TWF = +32 +32 +32 +27 +27 +22 +22
damage: main 1d4+9 str + 5 weapon +2d6 sneak attack +2d6 flaming&frost =30.5 (163,5 with SGW)
damage: off 1d4+4 str + 5 weapon +2d6 sneak attack +2d6 flaming&frost =25.5 (158,5 with SGW)

first round:
cast schism and temporal acceleration for 2 rounds(total 21pp)
1.use wand of greater invisibility
2.use pecognition offensive for +4(10pp)

second round:
cast dimesion door(7pp),use move action to cast DD with lesser range(7pp),
use schism action to cast DDwith lesser range(5pp),cast dimension hop(1pp)
Because os shadow pounce that is total of 4 full attacks, and all attacks are used
as a touch attacks using stormguard warrior ,every attack that hits gives me
5 dmg in next round,so 26,6 attacks hit giving me 133 damage in next round

third round:
repeat actions from previous round except that now i attack normaly, so 15,2 attacks
hit with primary hand, of whict 4,332 are confirmed critical threats, and 11,4 attacks
hit with off hand, of whict 3,249 are confirmed critical threats.
damage: 2485,2 main weapon, 3132,834 with critical 15,2 con damage
1806,9 off weapon,2276,3805 with critical 11,4 con damage

fourth and fifth rounds repeat actions from second and third
total pp spent: 111
total damage: 10286,429 with critical and damage reduction, 53,2 wounding damage(106,4 if it counts with touch attacks)

Well this build is not really for play, but it can be slightly modified to be more
playable(who need that much damage anyway)

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-23, 01:22 PM
I think I'm not going to debate any further as to why you feel that it is necessary for this hypothetical opponent to be teleporting every round, rather than providing a specific foe(eg, a Balor, or Pit Fiend). I am curious however, as to the arbitrary 5 round limit. Is there some special reason that the opponent will only be fighting for 5 rounds? By requiring that all contestants somehow either fly, or find a way to bar movement(use-activated Dimensional Anchor? Permanent Anti-magic Shell?), you're essentially magnifying two of the biggest weaknesses of Two-Weapon Fighting. Extreme Feat investiture(and subsequent Feat shortage), as well as large sums of money(on top of what they have to spend getting both/all of their weapons enchanted).

ravenkith
2007-03-23, 01:52 PM
Really and truthfully, the only way to play a meleer at high levels (without BO9S) is to pull some kind of shadowpouncer, or ubercharger build with a flying mount (if confused, google them on WOTC's boards.

deadseashoals
2007-03-23, 08:28 PM
Q:To people worrying about the fly/movement restriction, I suggest you think Leadership - Cohort Mount.

That won't give you the ability to make a full round of attacks against a flying target moving 100 ft. a round and weaving around, unless you have levels in a PrC that grants you the ability to make a full round of attacks after your mount makes a move action (Cavalier, Halfling Outrider, Wild Plains Outrider) and you have a mount with a fly speed of at least 100 ft. (perfect).