What is worth 2 wizard levels?

[The Vagabond]

What would you say 2 Wizard/caster levels are worth? What would it take to convince a high level optimizer to sacrifice 2 wizard/caster levels? +4 to their casting stat? Truespeech? What is a wizard level worth to you?

[Extra Anchovies]

Giving up two levels means you get ninths after a single-classed sorcerer. From an optimization perspective, it's rarely worth giving up more than one (if that).

[Lightlawbliss]

Something more abusable then having 9th level spells 2 levels earlier.

[heavyfuel]

Depends on your intentions. Giving up to 3 levels isn't a big deal if you're just theorizing or starting at lv 20. Swiftblade 9 is considered worthy losing 3 caster levels, but of course, only if you were interested in building a Gish from the start.

[The Vagabond]

Depends on your intentions. Giving up to 3 levels isn't a big deal if you're just theorizing or starting at lv 20. Swiftblade 9 is considered worthy losing 3 caster levels, but of course, only if you were interested in building a Gish from the start.

Let's say, ah, level 5. A actual game. Not a gish, pure caster. Let's throw in tiny size.

Here, how about I give up 2 wizard levels to be a crature from the Improved Familiar feat from Pathfinder.

[Urpriest]

I'd say it's only worth it if you get something that was qualitatively unavailable before, or it makes a tactic viable that wasn't viable before. If it's just bigger numbers it's highly unlikely to be worth it.

[sideswipe]

possibly for 2 levels of archivist, well actually make that 3. and a single level in wizard with precocious apprentice. them mystic theurge for 10 levels.

this is more if you are an archivist and want some wizard stuff for a dip....

[eggynack]

There're a couple of prestige classes out there that are implicitly assumed to be worth a caster level, because they cost one and are taken anyway. That list includes stuff like warweaver and malconvoker, both great classes that advance casting ability in ways beyond normal. On a sorcerer, that list also includes the sand shaper, for its massive spells known increase. Besides those, there are classes that would still be worth taking with a caster level drop, like incantatrix or initiate of the sevenfold veil, or if we look outside the wizard again, the planar shepherd.

Extrapolating, if one of these abilities, or ability sets, is worth a caster level, then two should be worth about two caster levels. It's obviously an extremely rough approximation, because moving from one level loss to two is probably worse than from none to one, but it's a starting point. More importantly, the scale on these things is completely unlike that of a +4 to a casting stat. It's separately worth note that losing caster levels costs far less after you have 9th's already. It's worth trading out for a lot less at that point.

[Petrocorus]

What would you say 2 Wizard/caster levels are worth? What would it take to convince a high level optimizer to sacrifice 2 wizard/caster levels? +4 to their casting stat? Truespeech? What is a wizard level worth to you?

Concerning the casting stat, the Elf, Gnome and Human Paragon classes give a +2 increase for the cost of one CL, and from what i gathered on this board, are usually not considered worthy, save for some specific builds.

[tyriuth]

I'd hesitantly say a cleric dip for domains (some work great with wizard IIRC), or something similar. As many have mentioned earlier; it depends on where you were planning on going with the build, and what level you started with.

[Thanatosia]

From a strict min-maxing perspective, I think Mystic Thurging into Ur-Priest is the only way to give up caster levels that makes a wizard more optimized.

[Rubik]

StP erudite is effectively a wizard -2 to learn spells, and it's totally worth the wait. Of course, he still casts the spells at his manifester level, and it's practically a psion//wizard gestalt already, so it's not perfect, but it's close.

[TypoNinja]

You might have fun with other ideas, but from sheer power, pretty much nothing is worth 2 caster levels except 2 caster levels, spells are just that good.

I've done stuff like a pixie caster, it was 4 levels, not an optimal choice, but funny as ****. Permanently invisible, flight, small sized, bonkers stat boosts, but waaay delayed on picking up spells. Its noticeable. It also still worked.

[chaos_redefined]

Casting a narrow set of spells earlier can be worth it, depending on the spells. As an example, the malconvoker's LVL 5 feature is roughly equivalent to summoning 1d3 monsters of the level you are supposed to access, so that's like casting a spell 1 level higher. And they tack on extra Augment Summoning/Extend Spell just to be sure.

So, for two levels, choose either Abjuration or Necromancy. You can cast spells from that school as if they were two levels lower. You determine spells per day and caster level as if you were two levels lower.

e.g. A seventh level wizard with this ability (choosing necromancy) would cast spells as a fifth level wizard, but could treat ray of exhaustion as a first level spell, fear as a second level spell and spiritwall as third level spell. Alternatively, an abjurer at the same level could treat dispel magic as a first level spell, dispelling screen as a second level spell and refusal as a third level spell.

If they got school balance right, this would actually make a good alternative to the current specialization rules.

[Taveena]

If non-binder entry is banned, then a Binder level to get into Anima mage is very potent indeed.

[SinsI]

What would you say 2 Wizard/caster levels are worth? What would it take to convince a high level optimizer to sacrifice 2 wizard/caster levels? +4 to their casting stat? Truespeech? What is a wizard level worth to you?

Depends on tiers, levels and the optimization level of the rest of the party. If you are the only tier 1, and is already level 17 - two extra caster levels can be sacrificed for some extra versatility, i.e. ability to spontaneously cast some of your spells.
But if everyone else is also an optimized tier 1, and you are something like level 7 - you'd need far more than +4 to casting stat.

[The Vagabond]

Alright, how does this sound:
In a 3.PF game (3.5 dominant), one where there's a Uselee Fey human with Racial Heritage (Kobold), who is Dragonwrought, I have the option to trade 2 wizard levels for Constant Freedom of Movement, detect magic, Detect Evil, +8 to +12 dex for -6 to -10 strength, +4 int, +10 charisma, and +2 con, DR 5/evil, Immunity to electricity and petrification, Resist cold and fire 10, outsider type, tiny size, and perfect flight of 80 feet. How good would this be for a Wizard (And ONLY a wizard, I'm not all that curious about a sorcerer)

[eggynack]

Alright, how does this sound:
In a 3.PF game (3.5 dominant), one where there's a Uselee Fey human with Racial Heritage (Kobold), who is Dragonwrought, I have the option to trade 2 wizard levels for Constant Freedom of Movement, detect magic, Detect Evil, +8 to +12 dex for -6 to -10 strength, +4 int, +10 charisma, and +2 con, DR 5/evil, Immunity to electricity and petrification, Resist cold and fire 10, outsider type, tiny size, and perfect flight of 80 feet. How good would this be for a Wizard (And ONLY a wizard, I'm not all that curious about a sorcerer)
Not really. The thing about magic is that it does lots of stuff. That means you can approximate most of those effects with more and better magic. What you really want, the thing that is true of just about anything that could be worth a caster level (or two) is that they offer significant improvements to casting ability that would be difficult to acquire otherwise. For the most part, your list is only adding spells/day, and that's not enough to justify the loss.

[SinsI]

What levels are you starting at? What levels are you planning to reach? Are you always going to be 2 levels behind, or is it just a reduction in initial xp your character has (so very soon you'll be within a single level or same level as the others)?

Adjustments look more fitting for something like Warlock or Dragonfire Adept, not a Wizard.

Flight 80 is very good if you have an unlimited source of ranged damage.

[Curmudgeon]

It all depends on what the player wants for their character. If they want to enter a (casting advancing) PrC which has a BAB requirement, then a level each of Barbarian and Fighter gives them much better Fortitude saves, fast movement, and a feat.

The player has to be the one to make the value judgment.

[angry_bear]

Not really. The thing about magic is that it does lots of stuff. That means you can approximate most of those effects with more and better magic. What you really want, the thing that is true of just about anything that could be worth a caster level (or two) is that they offer significant improvements to casting ability that would be difficult to acquire otherwise. For the most part, your list is only adding spells/day, and that's not enough to justify the loss.

Those elemental resistances are pretty nice though, and the racial Int increase looks tempting...

If it's cheese you're going for those bonuses are like the processed stuff. Good in a pinch, but you're going to get a much better product with those two caster levels you'd be giving up later on. It really depends on what level you expect your campaign to get to. If it's ending before you'd get level 9 spells anyway, do it up. If it's going to reach endgame content though; keep the caster levels instead.

[eggynack]

Those elemental resistances are pretty nice though, and the racial Int increase looks tempting...
They're alright, but it's not even on the same scale. For context, war weaver is worth one caster level. I'm not even sure that it's necessarily worth two. None of those bonuses come close to what war weaver grants.


If it's cheese you're going for those bonuses are like the processed stuff. Good in a pinch, but you're going to get a much better product with those two caster levels you'd be giving up later on. It really depends on what level you expect your campaign to get to. If it's ending before you'd get level 9 spells anyway, do it up. If it's going to reach endgame content though; keep the caster levels instead.
I rather disagree. The difference between, say, color spray and alter self, or between solid fog and teleport, is massive. Sure, 9th's are great, but disregarding the value of other spell levels, relative to the spell levels before them, seems like a mistake.

[angry_bear]

They're alright, but it's not even on the same scale. For context, war weaver is worth one caster level. I'm not even sure that it's necessarily worth two. None of those bonuses come close to what war weaver grants.


I rather disagree. The difference between, say, color spray and alter self, or between solid fog and teleport, is massive. Sure, 9th's are great, but disregarding the value of other spell levels, relative to the spell levels before them, seems like a mistake.

That's a fair point, but assuming he's starting with 18-19 Int he goes up to 22-23, and with a low level buff he's now at 26. So he gets more spells per day, and permanent flight, and some good resistances, and I'm pretty sure he'd get most of the benefits of being a dragon wrought despite the outsider subtype wouldn't he? Personally I'd keep the caster levels, but I would be tempted to take the dm on his offer.

[eggynack]

That's a fair point, but assuming he's starting with 18-19 Int he goes up to 22-23, and with a low level buff he's now at 26.
This stuff isn't even a thing of any kind. The race in question is providing +4 intelligence, and that's generally compared to gray elf, which provides a +2. Low level buffs aren't a thing being granted, so they exist on both ends, and said low level buffs don't really give spells/day anyway. This isn't much at all.


So he gets more spells per day, and permanent flight, and some good resistances, and I'm pretty sure he'd get most of the benefits of being a dragon wrought despite the outsider subtype wouldn't he? Personally I'd keep the caster levels, but I would be tempted to take the dm on his offer.
As I mentioned, most of that stuff is spell accessible. Permanent flight, good defenses, hell, even extra spells/day, that's stuff that more levels in wizard help with. As always, spells are better than just about everything. That includes this.

[The Vagabond]

That's a fair point, but assuming he's starting with 18-19 Int he goes up to 22-23, and with a low level buff he's now at 26. So he gets more spells per day, and permanent flight, and some good resistances, and I'm pretty sure he'd get most of the benefits of being a dragon wrought despite the outsider subtype wouldn't he? Personally I'd keep the caster levels, but I would be tempted to take the dm on his offer.

Oh, no, I was talking about the other player, who actually WAS a dragonwrought Human Uselee fey sorcerer, with 28 cha.

And, if you guys desire specifics, I'm thinking of playing a Lyrakien (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/azata/azata-lyrakien) using the Pathfinder method of LA (CR=ECL).

[eggynack]

Oh, no, I was talking about the other player, who actually WAS a dragonwrought Human Uselee fey sorcerer, with 28 cha.

And, if you guys desire specifics, I'm thinking of playing a Lyrakien (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/azata/azata-lyrakien) using the Pathfinder method of LA (CR=ECL).
That was a bit unclear, though it looks like you're eating your racial choice with this anyway, so my analysis holds up well enough.

[Divide by Zero]

That's a fair point, but assuming he's starting with 18-19 Int he goes up to 22-23, and with a low level buff he's now at 26. So he gets more spells per day

Two levels of wizard also give more spells per day, some of which are a level higher.

[angry_bear]

That was a bit unclear, though it looks like you're eating your racial choice with this anyway, so my analysis holds up well enough.

To me the deal is good enough to be tempting, but I think that I agree that he's better off keeping the caster levels.

[Raimun]

I've seen people playing (standard race) wizards with dips to non-casting classes.

Needless to say, they weren't extremely good in or out of combat. The worst I saw was 4 (out of 10) levels of Full BAB-class mixed to 6 levels of wizard. Limited spells for 10th level play and I don't think he was ever able to beat a caster level check... such as spell resistance. And no. It was not a gish-build. His intention was that he was primarily a caster... and he was a better caster than warrior.

Even my Fighter-heavy Dragon Disciple was able to utilize his spells better, because I only buffed myself before combat and the spells complemented my fighting really well.

[evangaline]

Like some have said before me: This depends on the situation.
Some builds specialise in doing one thing, and one thing only. If you really want to there are builds that can still do really well, even though they loose some caster levels.

The only reason I would personally pay caster levels for is being a pain to kill. An reasonable example is lichdom, especially demi-lichdom. This costs more then 2 levels though.

Edit: I completely forgot about the dry-lich, wich only costs 2 caster levels. It is more focussed on divine spellcasters though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

IMO, sacrificing a few levels of wizard to get into ultimate magus is a pretty good tradeoff.

Pimp those metamagics and have spontaneous casting for my "use them all the time" spells, yes please.

Hell, I'd even do that with the expected wiz/sorc entry without any practiced spellcaster cheese and ultimately give up 4 (that's right, count 'em; four) levels of wizardry.

[Snowbluff]

A game of slaps with Snowbluff.

...My Energy Drain DC is REALLY high.