Summoner Wizard + blaster or control?

[RoboEmperor]

I love summons, and summons are the #1 reason I am playing DnD, because most other games have no summons.

The thing about summoner is that you have to use your highest level slots for summons, but the rest of the slots are empty! So I am having trouble deciding what to fill them out with. Here's what I got so far:

1: Wizard | 2 Spell Focus: Conjuration, Eschew Materials
2: Wizard |
3: Wizard | 1 Fiery Burst Reserve Feat
4: Wizard |
5: Wizard | 1 Augment Summoning
6: Geometer | 1 Extend Spell
7: Geometer |
8: Wizard |
9: Wizard | 1 Summon Elemental Reserve Feat
10: Wizard |
11: Wizard |
12: Wizard | 2 Spell Focus ?, Skill Focus: Spellcraft
13: Archmage | (Mastery of Shaping)
14: Wizard |
15: Wizard | 1 Persistent Spell
16: Wizard |
17: Archmage | (Mastery of Elements)
18: Wizard | 1
19: Wizard | 1
20: Wizard |

So my current plan is:
1. fill out level 9 slots with 1 foresight, 1 meteor swarm, and rest summon elemental monolith
2. have one planar bound creature to kill the common mobs along with fiery burst
3. max out persistent or long duration defensive buffs on myself
4. max out persistent or long duration defensive and offensive buffs on the planar bound creature
5. Get some solid fogs, acid fogs, or incendiary clouds for crowd control
6. Get some true strikes, assay resistance, and enervations for BBEG.
7. Get some orb spells for the BBEG?

I was planning on getting empowered OR maximized orbs of fire, and using archmage's mastery of elements to deal sonic damage to BBEG, or use maximized cone of cold and turn it into a sonic fireball, but should I? I thought i was going summoner + blaster, but it turns out I'm going summoner+battlefield control with all the buffs, debuffs, and fogs right now.

What are your opinions? Should I go hardcore battlefield control and get spell focus: transmutation or something? Or should I stay with my metamagic orbs? I could see myself using disintegrate after lowering the BBEG's saves down with enervation, or just go full debuff and crowd control and let my planar bound creature handle everything.

I have read treantmonk's guide on being a god and the malconvoker. I don't like malconvoker because summon monster spells become worthless later, especially with the monolith and planar bindings, the 1 caster level loss is detrimental to me atm, and it requires an additional source book.

I initially hated being a god because no matter how you look at it, that build is a support not a god. In other video games, the guy who kills is the DPS (guy with all the glory), the guy who stays alive is the tank, and the guy who buffs, debuffs, and stuns is the support, who is nice to have but not essential, but then looking at my build, I'm basically supporting my planar bound creature, so I've began to change my view on the subject, which lead to this thread XD.

Oh and no incantatrix, there's a difference between "Mr.Sage, help me make my build better please!" and "Mr.Sage, please turn me into a cheap #*@& who sucks all the fun out of the game" :P

I currently have 2 feats open, and a possibility of not going archmage, which results in more feats! I am playing in a group right now, but I like to be independent as in I can solo if I want to. Oh and geometer is for fluff reasons (1 page per spell).

[chaos_redefined]

A bunch of things:

First, if you are going with Summon Elemental Monolith, you aren't doing anything else. It has a duration of concentration. If you don't ban Evocation, Sonorous Hum fixes this.

Second, Summon Monster is still good when you have 2 25 ft squares with over 1000 HP of collosal spider appear around the opponent. It's less of a damage spell and more of a battlefield control spell, but it is still able to keep up with the malconvoker input. It takes a fair amount of effort to escape that. Especially if you follow it up with a Quickened Solid Fog. On a related note... Master Specialist is another alternative. At 4th level, summons get some extra HP, nothing major. At 10th level, you can auto-quicken 3 times per day. And it gives you the Skill Focus (Spellcraft) for Archmage for free.

Third, summon spells from 1 down are still useful. For example, at 10th level (assuming no lost CL to, say, malconvoker), you can cast 5th level spells, however, SMIV is still somewhat relevant, with the lion and the wolf still being decent, especially if it's been a long day and you have run out of 5th level slots. Sure, they are a lot less relevant than 3 levels ago when you first got them, but use them right and it still works. And you get 6th level spells next level, meaning SMV takes over for SMVI.

Fourth, you are still providing damage output, and it can be quite meaningful, just by summoning. However, I'd suggest a mix between multi-target buff spells, and battlefield control. The buff spells should be entirely offense-focused. Haste is the obvious choice, but Chained spells can be quite effective, if you can find some with sufficient reach. Battlefield control is all about making the enemy play with your monsters instead of tastier options, such as your friends. Every hit that a summon takes is one that your ally doesn't. Or, even more important, it's a hit that you don't take. Summon Monster is better than Planar Binding for this, because they have a short lifespan anyway.

Finally, why does your build have 16 levels of wizard? Surely, you'd be better off with another level of Archmage or Geometer?

[Extra Anchovies]

Finally, why does your build have 16 levels of wizard? Surely, you'd be better off with another level of Archmage or Geometer?

Seconding this. The only thing a Wizard 16/Full casting PrC 4 has over Wizard 15/full casting PrC 5 is that their familiar has +8 natural armor rather than +7. It doesn't even get a higher Intelligence modifier. Of course, the stuff you can get from one level in a casting PrC far outweighs this, and if you're playing with flaws, you're taking Forlorn and picking up Obtain Familiar at 3rd so it scales with CL anyways.

[Bullet06320]

I second master specialist for this build, as it saves you a feat as you get skillfocus(spellcraft) for free, nothing wrong with that, it appears designed to take a specialist wizard right into arcmage, only needing 1 more feat at that point

take a look at
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#conjurerVariants
Rapid Summoning ACF you get more mileage out of your summons at low level

[Feint's End]

Your feat choices are odd to say the least. Why eshew materials? That feat is pretty much only flavour in 9/10 cases. Get Augmented Summoning at first or at least at 3rd. Why do you get fiery burst before the summoning reserve feat?

Other than that I third looking into other prcs too. Straight Wizard is by no means bad but neither is it the best choice possible (Master Specialist is a decent option for a few levels).

[RoboEmperor]

A bunch of things:

First, if you are going with Summon Elemental Monolith, you aren't doing anything else. It has a duration of concentration. If you don't ban Evocation, Sonorous Hum fixes this.

I know about the concentration thing and I don't mind. After all I got this huge ass elemental blocking all attacks :) Thanks for telling me about sonorous hum too by the way!


Second, Summon Monster is still good when you have 2 25 ft squares with over 1000 HP of collosal spider appear around the opponent. It's less of a damage spell and more of a battlefield control spell, but it is still able to keep up with the malconvoker input. It takes a fair amount of effort to escape that. Especially if you follow it up with a Quickened Solid Fog. On a related note... Master Specialist is another alternative. At 4th level, summons get some extra HP, nothing major. At 10th level, you can auto-quicken 3 times per day. And it gives you the Skill Focus (Spellcraft) for Archmage for free.

o_O How can you get 1000hp spiders? Aren't they only about 200? Please do tell :D maybe I skipped a paragraph in the other summoning guides...

The main reason I didn't go conjurer variant is because I thought I needed the extra 3 bonus feats instead of feats that buff my summon monster stuff since in my opinion summon monster phase out after planar binding and elemental monolith, and I need empower and maximize for the blasting bit. That and I don't like being restricted in spells. Also, past level 17 I don't think I'll be using summon monster, maybe at most summon monster 8 depending on how well they survive, but again, I might be missing something about the 1000hp summons! o_O


Third, summon spells from 1 down are still useful. For example, at 10th level (assuming no lost CL to, say, malconvoker), you can cast 5th level spells, however, SMIV is still somewhat relevant, with the lion and the wolf still being decent, especially if it's been a long day and you have run out of 5th level slots. Sure, they are a lot less relevant than 3 levels ago when you first got them, but use them right and it still works. And you get 6th level spells next level, meaning SMV takes over for SMVI.

I sometimes use summon monster that's 1 down.


Fourth, you are still providing damage output, and it can be quite meaningful, just by summoning. However, I'd suggest a mix between multi-target buff spells, and battlefield control. The buff spells should be entirely offense-focused. Haste is the obvious choice, but Chained spells can be quite effective, if you can find some with sufficient reach. Battlefield control is all about making the enemy play with your monsters instead of tastier options, such as your friends. Every hit that a summon takes is one that your ally doesn't. Or, even more important, it's a hit that you don't take. Summon Monster is better than Planar Binding for this, because they have a short lifespan anyway.

I have 2 fears.
1. Mob of monsters appear that overwhelm me and my planar bound creature. This is why I got solid fog, so i can take them on one at a time. I also intended to throw sonic maximized cone of colds shaped into explosions into the fogs, but I'm not so sure. That way the mob of monsters take a while to reach me through the fog and the sonic AoE damage will ensure my buffed up planar bound creature can take them down before another one appears.

2. BBEG pwning all my stuff. Iin my past experiences BBEG kills my summon in 1-2 turns :(, which inclined me to get some damage spells like maximized orb of fire shaped into sonic. This way I use spells only for mobs or BBEG, but I'm starting to wonder if using blasting spells for mobs and BBEG is a good idea. Blasting has great burst, but uses up spells so quickly, but if I'm going to use it only against BBEG, then why not?

So now when you tell me summons do damage and do their role in soaking up damage, I'm saying "not enough damage! D:" XD. I like being independent so I don't want to rely on my allies too much. Depending on them to kill the BBEG is too much in my opinion, but I guess I can't have everything D:


Finally, why does your build have 16 levels of wizard? Surely, you'd be better off with another level of Archmage or Geometer?

It's a work in progress. 2 levels of archmage was mandatory for the sonic blaster build, and 2 levels of geoemeter is mandatory in all of my wizard builds. I'm still wondering if I should go sonic blaster or not. If I do go full control, what spells would you recommend strongly so i can try to get the spell focus for them?

Also I don't want to go crazy with PrCs, might make me look like a power gamer :P. I used to get like 7-8 PrCs with my gish, but summoners are good to go with just pure wizard XD.

Oh and I don't plan on getting familiars. They're um... not expendable? Yeah that's it. They're not expendable and fluff wise my PC is a loner (despite the summons...)


Your feat choices are odd to say the least. Why eshew materials? That feat is pretty much only flavour in 9/10 cases. Get Augmented Summoning at first or at least at 3rd. Why do you get fiery burst before the summoning reserve feat?

Other than that I third looking into other prcs too. Straight Wizard is by no means bad but neither is it the best choice possible (Master Specialist is a decent option for a few levels).

Eschew Materials is like my 2 levels of geometer. Essential due to fluff reasons. I like being independent which means I also like being self sufficient. Being reliant on a wizard market to cast all my spells is a no-no. I almost decided to not play DnD because of this. It's no different than those MMORPGs where you need gold to cast certain spells, and the only way to get gold is selling stuff, thus making you completely dependent on society. The geometer is a combo with tattoo spell books, so i can have 76 spells without a spell book (not gonna shave her into a baldie for 4 extra spells). I would never have touched wizards if it weren't for this, and stuck with sorcerers, which I have many qualms about XD

I get fiery burst at level 3 because I want to ditch the crossbow a.s.a.p.!!! Who doesn't?

I can't get the summoning reserve feat until level 7, which is why I get it at 9 since I can't get it at 6.

Thanks for all the inputs! This forum is so helpful :)

If I'm not going to go blaster, I'd probably skip archmage and use those feats for spell focus: ___ for the save or x spells you guys recommend. Reading treantmonk's guide again for the 51th time right now...

[prufock]

I know about the concentration thing and I don't mind. After all I got this huge ass elemental blocking all attacks :)

The feat Extraordinary Concentration is amazing if you are going to be using a lot of concentration-duration spells. Fairly easy concentration check to make it a move (DC 25 + spell level) or swift (DC 35 + spell level) action. Complete Adventurer.

There is also the Swift Concentration skill trick.

[Bullet06320]

Oh and I don't plan on getting familiars. They're um... not expendable? Yeah that's it. They're not expendable and fluff wise my PC is a loner (despite the summons...)


if your not planning on a familiar, then the rapid summing ACF I suggested earlier is a good alternative, or even abrupt jaunt ACF

[RoboEmperor]

if your not planning on a familiar, then the rapid summing ACF I suggested earlier is a good alternative, or even abrupt jaunt ACF

If I do go a specialist it will definately be one of the variants you've suggested, but at this time I like using all spells from all schools :).

I mean, who can hate greater heroism from enchantment school? XD

Oh and another reason I wanted to go maximize empower sonic orb of fire is BBEGs have universally high saves. But then again, the amount of spells I have to throw at this guy to kill him, it'd might be just as fast to throw large amounts of enervation and then a save or die.

edit: yeah... biggest answer I need right now is which control spell combos would out perform a sonic metamagic'd orb of fire against a BBEG with high saves. Spell doesn't need to kill the BBEG, just weaken them enough for my summons and planar bound creatures to kill them. Avasculate comes to mind, and also doesn't need a save!

[The Insaniac]

Being reliant on a wizard market to cast all my spells is a no-no. I almost decided to not play DnD because of this. It's no different than those MMORPGs where you need gold to cast certain spells, and the only way to get gold is selling stuff, thus making you completely dependent on society.

Um... eschew materials only means that you don't need to buy a spell component pouch at 1st level. You still need to buy foci and components that have a gp value.

Also, if you're worried about your summons getting swarmed or killed quickly, that's more reason to take malconvoker. Infernal legion gives you an extra monster from all of your summon spells and deceptive summoning at 4th gives your summons more hp and damage. Plus malconvoker boosts the HD cap on your planar binding spells by 2.

Summon Elemental Monolith is not as good as a high level summon monster with malconvoker. You get fewer hp, fewer attacks and less space taken up by your meat walls.

[Feint's End]

Also a component pouch doesn't really run out. It's like something you buy once and then forget about.

As mentioned you still have to buy the annoying things in any case.

[Phelix-Mu]

Also a component pouch doesn't really run out. It's like something you buy once and then forget about.

As mentioned you still have to buy the annoying things in any case.

In many campaigns, I don't even check players for non-costly components. It's like they don't even exist. (Why do they exist, after all?)

[RoboEmperor]

But fluff wise, a wizard is supposed to constantly buy those things and fill the pouch up. Mechanically yeah, DMs don't really check. Foci are infinite use, but spell components are one time use, and eschew materials gets rid of that. In epic levels I always take ignore spell components.

Also Insaniac, you're probably right about malconvoker, after all, everyone says it is THE PrC for summons.

But malconvoker or not, I still need to decide how am I gonna tackle BBEGs solo! Debuffs + save or die? Or metamagic sonic orbs of fire D:
Or maybe just debuffs and summons.