Question about Dragonborn Template

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I was asked a question and I didn't have the answer so I wanted to ask it here.

Ok say you take a monster class first, something like Feral Gargun for example which has 4 levels, 2 RHD and +2 LA which the Templates specifically calls out that you retain.

But... what happens when you add the Dragonborn Template on at level 1?
At level 2 what happens? What do you get? Do you get nothing now? Would each level I just gain the ability score bonuses and not anything else?

What if I took the Stonechild which has an ECL of 6, 6 monster class levels would I have 5 levels of just the ability score boosts? No Natural armor or weapon and armor proficiencies? Because running 6 levels without any weapons or armor even with high str and con is not gonna happen. No way someone can make it to level 6 with out even a natural attack as a weapon.

I was asked "Do I still add the normal monster class stuff after applying the Dragonborn template and just loose what was was gained before the template?"

Anyone got an answer?

[OldTrees1]

Monster Classes were not intended to be interrupted by anything. (Unlike Savage Progressions)

A good rule of thumb: If Dragonborn would have removed it, then you do not gain it. However this is merely a rule of thumb as what to expect from DMs. It may even be RAW since Dragonborn refers to Race and not levels.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Well that kind of makes it impossible for any race with an LA or RHD from taking Dragonborn at level 1. Because there is no way they would survive the first encounter let alone to level 4 or 6 without weapons or a way to fight such as natural attacks.

I mean seriously how does a DM deal with this? A Dragonborn Stonechild at level 1 or so is helpless, no weapons, no armor. Sure he has high str, but in 3.5 they where not auto proficient in unarmed strikes so he has no way to defend himself.

[torrasque666]

Well that kind of makes it impossible for any race with an LA or RHD from taking Dragonborn at level 1. Because there is no way they would survive the first encounter let alone to level 4 or 6 without weapons or a way to fight such as natural attacks.

I mean seriously how does a DM deal with this? A Dragonborn Stonechild at level 1 or so is helpless, no weapons, no armor. Sure he has high str, but in 3.5 they where not auto proficient in unarmed strikes so he has no way to defend himself.

I don't remember off the top of my head, but if Stonchildren are Monstrous Humanoids then they are proficient with all simple weapons, as per the type description from the SRD.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Stonechild has Outsider HD

Which says it has all Simple and Martial Weapons, as well as Light-Heavy armor except oddly their specifically called out armor and weapon proficiencies does not say they get Heavy armor.

As well as giving Darkvision 60 ft from the Hit Dice and called out as a monster class feature which is supposedly removed by Dragonborn.

[OldTrees1]

Well that kind of makes it impossible for any race with an LA or RHD from taking Dragonborn at level 1. Because there is no way they would survive the first encounter let alone to level 4 or 6 without weapons or a way to fight such as natural attacks.

I mean seriously how does a DM deal with this? A Dragonborn Stonechild at level 1 or so is helpless, no weapons, no armor. Sure he has high str, but in 3.5 they where not auto proficient in unarmed strikes so he has no way to defend himself.

Why did Bahamut enlist a child? Until the Monster Class is complete, the PC is an immature version of that race.

What I suggest:
Step 1)Rebalance Stonechild So that it is worth it's RHD and LA(skip if considered balanced).
Step 2)Wait until the Stonechild is mature and then have Bahamut accept it into his service.
Step 3)Apply the Dragonborn Template to the Stonechild Race.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I am not sure that is how Monster Class works like that? Because it allows you to play a Stonechild at level 1, which would have to be an adult version.

[OldTrees1]

I am not sure that is how Monster Class works like that? Because it allows you to play a Stonechild at level 1, which would have to be an adult version.

Why would level 1 have to be an adult/a mature example of the race? You are allowed to play at level 1 at the cost of not being a full fledged/fully powered example of your race.

Remember Dragon PCs as well. Those only become Adults at mid-high levels.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

But still meant to be playable. Just not fully in your prime yet. Doesn't mean you would not be a mature version.

Does that mean a 1st level Illithid from Savages Species is a tadpole?

[OldTrees1]

But still meant to be playable. Just not fully in your prime yet. Doesn't mean you would not be a mature version.

Does that mean a 1st level Illithid from Savages Species is a tadpole?

Immature does not mean unborn(an illithid tadpole is pretty much equivalent to being unborn before the transformation).

Monster classes are expected to be playable as weaker versions of the monsters that have not matured into their prime. So I ask you, does the DM think Bahamut would enlist someone that was before their prime(especially with the distinct possibility that might mean they are a child relative to the race)? Or would the DM have Bahamut defer the enlisting until later? (and thus solving the issue)

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

You do know Humans are considered adults in DND by age 15. So to be immature you would have to be what 10 for a race that is something like half human.

Also.. what if you reach multiple levels fairly quickly in story? I mean what if in three days IC you make it to level 3? Does this mean your say 10 year old just aged 2 years suddenly?

[OldTrees1]

You do know Humans are considered adults in DND by age 15. So to be immature you would have to be what 10 for a race that is something like half human.

Also.. what if you reach multiple levels fairly quickly in story? I mean what if in three days IC you make it to level 3? Does this mean your say 10 year old just aged 2 years suddenly?

Levels do not have a 1:1 correspondence with age, just as physical maturity does not have a 1:1 correspondence with age. (With the exception of Dragons)

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

But that is my point. Just because are you are level 1 of a monster class does not mean you are a child. Because what if you level rapidly, did you just rapidly mature to full prime state? Not likely since most campaigns do not have years flow between them. So yes you would have to say all characters start at adult age.

Again with humans as the example. 15 years old is adult for a human.. are 15 year olds prime shape or state?

[OldTrees1]

But that is my point. Just because are you are level 1 of a monster class does not mean you are a child. Because what if you level rapidly, did you just rapidly mature to full prime state? Not likely since most campaigns do not have years flow between them. So yes you would have to say all characters start at adult age.

Again with humans as the example. 15 years old is adult for a human.. are 15 year olds prime shape or state?

I grant that it is possible to be physically immature yet still be past the socially defined adult age. However notice I did not every say how the DM should rule, merely gave a possible ruling and the reasoning that would lead there(as a means of resolving your problem).

A 15 year old human in D&D had 0 class levels. At ages 16-27 a human may come into their own(gain their 1st level) as they physically/mentally mature into their adult role. Notice that this is a range since not every human will mature at the same rate. (However we should both note that there is no Monster Class for Humans)

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Very true, Humans of the age of 15 can take their first class level without the Young Template being applied and forced to take NPC classes.

I was simply pointing out the monster classes first level should be able to take the template as they are what their race considered adult (Similar to how we count 18 year olds now, even though they do not reach full maturity till 25)

[Pan151]

This is mostly the issue with the monster class variant rule being a compromise that exists solely to let you play as a monster from level 1. It is an entirely gamey concept that in the vast majority of circumstances makes absolutely no sense from an in-universe perspective.

It being a variant rule also makes it incompatible with certain regular rules, like templates. Which means that it's entirely up to the DM to decide how and if this works.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Oh good, well the problem is both sides have sound arguments. The monster class MUST be followed, template changes what came before but not after since it makes no mention of other racial features just what it replaces. And you must complete the monster class as is.

[Pan151]

Yes, but the problem is that the two rulesets are incompatible. Templates apply to base creatures, they do not apply to classes (besides things like undead HD). You can't blindly apply regular rules when you're using a variant rule, so stop asking what the rules say (or, in this case, don't say) and start thinking what makes sense.

In the case at hand, having the template apply only to some levels definitely makes no sense whatsoever, so at least scrap that and go from there.

[Kraken]

I'd continue forcing you to take monster levels. The two most common explanations I've seen for RP justifying yourself starting as a weaker version of a monster are that you're either young, or were severely wounded, diseased, or otherwise stricken. I don't see a problem with a dragonborn continuing to grow in power as a member of their original race, either naturally as though aging, or recovering, with the caveat that all class features are affected by the template as though you had just gained it at each level. So you wouldn't get SLAs from taking levels in your monster class, but you would get ability bumps and so forth. For instance, for a frost giant (Savage Species) dragonborn, you'd become large sized at level 14, because you keep your original size when becoming a dragonborn, but you don't keep natural attacks, and therefore you wouldn't get the slam attacks you'd otherwise be entitled to as a level 14 frost giant. At level 11, you'd get the +2 strength, but not the natural armor bonus.

Edit: oops, I was looking at the flesh golem table in SS, not the frost giant table.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Templates can only be taken with DM approval anyway. So I would say this goes three ways by my readings either the DM only allows the Template to be taken at the end of the monster class, so for Gargun at level 4, or at level 6 for Stonechild. This removes everything they had gained and had use of up till that point.

If the DM allows the players to take the Template at level 1 the first level of the monster class is altered as per the standard template use. However, this is where the way splits. One way is that the Template alters each level as if taking it on that level. But the templates doesn't mention preventing you from gaining features like natural armor or something.

Or the second method, which is albeit highly unfair to other races and leaves you with little drawback from taking the template (Which most people bypass by picking the right race) is that you alter the first level of the monster class with the template, but take each following class level as they are normally depicted on their respective monster class tables.

My problem is.. yeah there are no rules for this.

[Pan151]

Monster classes are supposed to be the exact same as a regular monster, only spread out across a number of levels equal to RHD+LA.

As such, the only option that makes any sense is to apply the template to the default creature, then change your racial class to be a spread out version of that.

[Troacctid]

Agreed. Continue with the monster class, but lose everything except the things Dragonborn lets you keep.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

I am curious why you say that is the only option that makes sense.

Ok lets say you do that.. Stonechild becomes 100% useless till level 7. As the proficiency are removed via the template. They are called out specifically and so are monster class features and so are removed.

So... how do you play an adventurer without any way of defending himself. Yes I am aware he gets this proficiencies from RHD but things dont stack so the monster class would override the RHD basics.

[Kraken]

I am curious why you say that is the only option that makes sense.

Ok lets say you do that.. Stonechild becomes 100% useless till level 7. As the proficiency are removed via the template. They are called out specifically and so are monster class features and so are removed.

So... how do you play an adventurer without any way of defending himself. Yes I am aware he gets this proficiencies from RHD but things dont stack so the monster class would override the RHD basics.

D&D is a game that allows people to make foolishly suboptimal character choices. You can choose to take levels in sorcerer with single digit charisma scores, for instance. I'm all for games not including trap choices, but the ability to make poor choices is inherent to any game with deep character building. The weapon example probably has a number of easy workarounds, the simplest of which is simply opting to be a spiked chain user, so that you're not any more feat starved than a 'conventional' character using a spiked chain.

[Murmaider]

So... how do you play an adventurer without any way of defending himself.

Join a party of monks?

[Pan151]

I am curious why you say that is the only option that makes sense.

Because otherwise a default rules monster and a character with a fully completed monster class would end up with different stats, which is against what the monster class variant rule is trying to accomplish.


Ok lets say you do that.. Stonechild becomes 100% useless till level 7. As the proficiency are removed via the template. They are called out specifically and so are monster class features and so are removed.

So... how do you play an adventurer without any way of defending himself. Yes I am aware he gets this proficiencies from RHD but things dont stack so the monster class would override the RHD basics.

If an anti-synergistic template is applied to a creature then the DM is encouraged by the rules to lower the LA as he sees fit in order to balance things out. So, if you really want to be a dragonborn child, you are withn your rights to ask your DM to shorten the new racial class down by a few levels.

Also, yes, you will be useless, because dragonborn was never supposed to be applied to a racial class and was not really intended for stonechildren either - the same way ghost was not really intended for trolls and Hellfire Warlock was not really intended for Necropolitans. So, simply don't become one - a stonechild has no reason to want to be reborn into a more incompetent version of itself, and Bahamut has no reason to force a perfectly capable servant into becoming a more incompetent version of itself either.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Now I will admit I would be able to remedy this with like taking my first feat via HD as a weapon Prof or Improved Unarmed Strike or something similar.
And yes when adding a template you could ask the DM to drop LA. Heck I don't know if I think +4 LA is appropriate for a +8 Str and Con +2 Int and a -2 Cha especially when you lose Magic Stone SLA, +4 Natural Armor and Immunity to Acid and Poison especially on top of the RHD it gets.

Now fine if you want to say losing the SLA, the NAtural armor and immunity loses me 4 LA I would say its a better trade off. for a +10 to Con. Heck pick up a Spellcaster class and take Lost Tradition at level 3, making the new spell casting stat Con and you are set.

[Urpriest]

One possibility is that if you complete the Dragonborn ritual, the template doesn't take effect until you finish taking Stonechild levels. The "end result" is a Dragonborn Stonechild, and you should become one "in order", by first finishing accumulating the ECL for Stonechild and then applying Dragonborn.

[OldTrees1]

I am curious why you say that is the only option that makes sense.

Ok lets say you do that.. Stonechild becomes 100% useless till level 7. As the proficiency are removed via the template. They are called out specifically and so are monster class features and so are removed.

So... how do you play an adventurer without any way of defending himself. Yes I am aware he gets this proficiencies from RHD but things dont stack so the monster class would override the RHD basics.

Wait, I thought Type based Proficiencies stayed because Dragonborn does not change your type.
Edit: Just double checked. Yes, you do keep your Type/Subtypes and all traits of those types/subtypes.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Yes you keep type and so forth.
Ok I have to say I am confused by Stonechild having a specific section mentioning armor and weapon proficiencies which do get replaced, but they are pretty much the same proficiencies so do they count as having two sets or just set?

[Troacctid]

The proficiencies come from its hit dice and creature type, not its racial abilities, so it doesn't lose them when it becomes a Dragonborn. They're listed in the racial class for convenience. Similarly, it doesn't lose its 1st level feat, etc.

[OldTrees1]

Yes you keep type and so forth.
Ok I have to say I am confused by Stonechild having a specific section mentioning armor and weapon proficiencies which do get replaced, but they are pretty much the same proficiencies so do they count as having two sets or just set?

Stonechild lists its Weapon and Armor proficiencies as something it gets from its type rather than its race.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Oh it does say as an Outsider, I somehow missed that.

Hmm that is very interesting. Well I would say a Dragonborn Stonechild would have a total ECL of 2 same as its hit dice as it loses a lot of what gives it a LA of 4, Immunity to Poison and Acid and 4 points of natural armor and a 3.day SLA. Sound about fair?

[OldTrees1]

Oh it does say as an Outsider, I somehow missed that.

Hmm that is very interesting. Well I would say a Dragonborn Stonechild would have a total ECL of 2 same as its hit dice as it loses a lot of what gives it a LA of 4, Immunity to Poison and Acid and 4 points of natural armor and a 3.day SLA. Sound about fair?

ECL 0 Dragonborn can get +4/+4/-2/-2/-2/-2
Dragonborn Stonechild gets +8/+10/-2/+0/-4/-2
Change: +4/+6/+0/+2/-2/+0
That change is not trivial(LA+0) nor is it worth a level(LA+1). Honestly I do not think it is worth even 2RHD.

I would remove Dragonborn Stonechild's +2LA and remove 1RHD but require the other to remain.
Verdict: ECL 1.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Dragonborn gives you +2 Con and -2 Dex
I am not sure what your lay out is but yeah ECL 1 or 2 seems about right.

[OldTrees1]

Dragonborn gives you +2 Con and -2 Dex
I am not sure what your lay out is but yeah ECL 1 or 2 seems about right.

I was comparing one Race + Template to another Race + same Template.