Power attack with crits

[montoya]

is the power attack damage also multiplied during a crit? We have a frenzied beserker with a large size greataxe who has improved PA (+3 for ever 1 BA used). So if he power attacks for 5 that would be 15x2 because of two handed so 30. Is that 30 multiplied as well?

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, it gets multiplied because it's a modifier on your normal damage roll. Only extra dice like from Sneak Attack or from a flaming weapon don't get multiplied.

[montoya]

Yes, it gets multiplied because it's a modifier on your normal damage roll. Only extra dice like from Sneak Attack or from a flaming weapon don't get multiplied.

Ah thank you very much. Wow he hits hard lol. He criticaled on a 60 dmg power attack +3d6 +11 strength +1d8 might blow lol.

[Twilightwyrm]

Yes, it gets multiplied because it's a modifier on your normal damage roll. Only extra dice like from Sneak Attack or from a flaming weapon don't get multiplied.

Y'know, I keep on saying this, but my DM still won't let me multiply DFI dice on a crit for some reason...

[Andezzar]

Y'know, I keep on saying this, but my DM still won't let me multiply DFI dice on a crit for some reason...Your DM is right. DFI adds damage dice. They are never multiplied on a critical hit, regardless of source, not only from sneak attack or flaming weapons. The static bonus from Inspire Courage however would be multiplied.

It gets interesting with sneak attack from a character with craven. The sneak attack dice are not multiplied, the static bonus form Craven is.

[nerghull]

What about skirmish ? As opposed to Sneak Attack or flaming properties, it is not explicitly stated that it's not multiplied in case of critical.

[DeltaEmil]

What about skirmish ? As opposed to Sneak Attack or flaming properties, it is not explicitly stated that it's not multiplied in case of critical.It doesn't need to, as the general rule is simply that any extra damage die is not multiplied when dealing critical damage.

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. If the extra damage die would be multiplied, they would explicitly mention it.
Also, skirmish has all the normal limitations of sneak attack and sudden strike anyway.

[nerghull]

Exact, thanks !

[MesiDoomstalker]

is the power attack damage also multiplied during a crit? We have a frenzied beserker with a large size greataxe who has improved PA (+3 for ever 1 BA used). So if he power attacks for 5 that would be 15x2 because of two handed so 30. Is that 30 multiplied as well?

You are doing your multiplications wrong. In 3.5, multiplications are additive, not multiplicative (intuitive I admit). So for you example we have a few multipliers in play here. Improved PA adds x3. Crit is x2. 2-handing is another x2. When you have several multiplier, you add them all together, subtracting 1 from each after the first. So, you get your x3, then +1 twice, for a total of x5. With his sacrifice of 5, that gives him +25 to his damage as well as his weapon die roll, strength bonus and other static modifiers to damage, all at x5 multiplier on top of the +25 from Improved Power Attack.

[Andezzar]

You are wrong on that one. Using a two-handed weapon is not a multiplication of the extra damage. It is a different exchange rate of AB to damage
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

The 3 to 1 exchange is for two-handed weapons already, its 1.5 to 1 for one-handed weapons.

So if the FB with a two-handed weapon takes a -5 on the attack his normal extra damage is +15. So the first multiplication that comes into play is on a crit. The crit factor however multiplies the whole damage, not the power attack damage (alone). This is important if other multipliers come into play, like Leap Attack (PA only), Valorous WSA (weapon damage) or dive attack (applies to everything like crit)

Assuming a greatwrord and STR 18 you would have a damage of 2d6+6+15 on a normal hit and 4d6 + 2*(6+15) on a crit.

[montoya]

You are doing your multiplications wrong. In 3.5, multiplications are additive, not multiplicative (intuitive I admit). So for you example we have a few multipliers in play here. Improved PA adds x3. Crit is x2. 2-handing is another x2. When you have several multiplier, you add them all together, subtracting 1 from each after the first. So, you get your x3, then +1 twice, for a total of x5. With his sacrifice of 5, that gives him +25 to his damage as well as his weapon die roll, strength bonus and other static modifiers to damage, all at x5 multiplier on top of the +25 from Improved Power Attack.

I'm not sure I quite understand....

[Deox]

Let's break it down a different way:

Assume the FB has an 18 Strength (+4 modifier) and, using the original example, is wielding a greataxe (large sized IIRC is 3d6).

The base damage from the greataxe is 3d6. Now, since this weapon is being used with two hands, the FB gets to add 1.5 times his strength modifier (4 [base modifier] + 2 [1/2 modifier]), totaling 3d6 + 6 on a normal every-day hit.

As was correctly stated in the OP, the Power Attack damage is multiplied.

Multiplying Damage
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Let's get back to our not-so-friendly FB:
Recall our normal swing is 3d6 + 6 (from strength). However, the FB swings feverishly (and choosing to use his Improved Power Attack at a -5 to hit and gains a +15 to damage) at the oncoming foe and scores a critical hit!

The greataxe is a x3 weapon. So, let us refer to the rules on applying damage:
3d6 + 6 (strength modifier) + 15 (Improved Power Attack). This is rolled and added together three times (since again, the greataxe is a x3 weapon).
Thus the total would be 9d6 + 18 (strength) + 45 (Improved Power Attack), or 9d6 + 63.

Things get a little more wacky when we start to add things like Leap Attack, Battle Jump, etc.

[montoya]

Let's break it down a different way:

Assume the FB has an 18 Strength (+4 modifier) and, using the original example, is wielding a greataxe (large sized IIRC is 3d6).

The base damage from the greataxe is 3d6. Now, since this weapon is being used with two hands, the FB gets to add 1.5 times his strength modifier (4 [base modifier] + 2 [1/2 modifier]), totaling 3d6 + 6 on a normal every-day hit.

As was correctly stated in the OP, the Power Attack damage is multiplied.


Let's get back to our not-so-friendly FB:
Recall our normal swing is 3d6 + 6 (from strength). However, the FB swings feverishly (and choosing to use his Improved Power Attack at a -5 to hit and gains a +15 to damage) at the oncoming foe and scores a critical hit!

The greataxe is a x3 weapon. So, let us refer to the rules on applying damage:
3d6 + 6 (strength modifier) + 15 (Improved Power Attack). This is rolled and added together three times (since again, the greataxe is a x3 weapon).
Thus the total would be 9d6 + 18 (strength) + 45 (Improved Power Attack), or 9d6 + 63.

Things get a little more wacky when we start to add things like Leap Attack, Battle Jump, etc.

Makes sense actually though the power attack damage would be doubled since the FB is wielding a two handed weapons +15x2 so +30 Power attack. So 9d6+18+90.

[Andezzar]

Makes sense actually though the power attack damage would be doubled since the FB is wielding a two handed weapons +15x2 so +30 Power attack. So 9d6+18+90.No, a two-handed weapon does not double the extra damage from power attack (see my earlier post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18329218&postcount=10)). The Frenzied Berserker's Improved Power Attack does not either:
Improved Power Attack: Beginning at 5th level, a frenzied berserker deals +50% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +3 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each –1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls. So with a two handed weapon the FB gets +15 damage for a -5 penalty to the attack. The +15 (along with everything else) gets multiplied normally on a critical hit, because that is the first multiplication taking place.

Supreme Power attack would give a 4:1 exchange rate.

[Max Caysey]

Makes sense actually though the power attack damage would be doubled since the FB is wielding a two handed weapons +15x2 so +30 Power attack. So 9d6+18+90.

Pretty sure thats already calculated in: " frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +3 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each —1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls."

I cound be wrong ofc!

[montoya]

Pretty sure thats already calculated in: " frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +3 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each —1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls."

I cound be wrong ofc!

Improved PA grants a +3 for ever -1 you take. Superior PA grants +4 to every -1 you take. FB is a melee machine it seems. I never realized it until now.

[Max Caysey]

Improved PA grants a +3 for ever -1 you take. Superior PA grants +4 to every -1 you take. FB is a melee machine it seems. I never realized it until now.

Yeah, add in a valorous weapon, leap attack and pouce, and youve got yourself a nasty motor!

[Andezzar]

And none of those start the weird multiplication

Valorous: 1st time multiplication of weapon damage
Leap attack +100% so no multiplication at all
Pounce: Just more attacks, no multiplication either
Critical hit: 1st multiplication of the whole damage

[montoya]

Yeah, add in a valorous weapon, leap attack and pouce, and youve got yourself a nasty motor!

lol I bet. The DM will likely cry when I tell the FB player about it.

[Andezzar]

Do you guys have an off-switch for the FB? If not you are likely to cry. FBs are a TPK waiting to happen, look at the frenzy ability.

[montoya]

Do you guys have an off-switch for the FB? If not you are likely to cry. FBs are a TPK waiting to happen, look at the frenzy ability.

Yes he rolled such bad wisdom my cleric has to boost his will save to break the frenzy. My cleric always has a power word stun and a couple hold person scrolls handy. And if that fails the protection domain can give a nice boost to his save.

[Deox]

Do you guys have an off-switch for the FB? If not you are likely to cry. FBs are a TPK waiting to happen, look at the frenzy ability.

Calm Emotions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) or a Merciful weapon:

The weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, and all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until commanded to resume it. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the merciful effect upon their ammunition.

Or even Steadfast Determination to snap out of the frenzy and not fail on the 1.

Seriously, they're not walking TPKs unless the player wants them to be.

[nerghull]

Get a bag of tricks and throw puppies at him. Not the nicest thing ever, but it might keep him busy until the end of his rage.

Note : You can have your familiar/summoned ape or whatever with hands doing that, if you think you have better things to do at the end of a fight

[Andezzar]

If you want a cheap way to shut him down use marbles or a grease spell. The FB automatically fails any balance checks.

[montoya]

If you want a cheap way to shut him down use marbles or a grease spell. The FB automatically fails any balance checks.

I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the idea.

[montoya]

Just read the PHB2 errata.

It does not stack....I will post it here if I am allowed to?

[Chronos]

What doesn't stack? Nothing folks here are talking about is from PHB2.

[montoya]

What doesn't stack? Nothing folks here are talking about is from PHB2.

OOPS!! Wrong thread, This was meant for telling blow.