wild shape

[Gurka]

I'm one of the many who finds the current incarnation of wild shape (particularly for Moon Druids) to be more than a little over the top. So far I've been shaping the encounters so as to keep it challenging for everybody without the druid eclipsing the rest of the party, but it's a bit taxing, and I'd rather come up with a simple solution to bring them down to the same level as most of the other classes at low and mid levels.

I've got a few ideas already, but I'm not really satisfied, so I'd love to hear what ideas you lot have for onions.

[Demonic Spoon]

It ceases to really be a problem eventually - I haven't with a moon druid played myself, but the general consensus is that moon druids are absurd until 4, at which point they're still quite strong, and then they taper off at 5.

This is mostly because CR 1 creatures are really, really strong compared to level 2-3 characters. I would just limit the druid to CR 1/2 creatures until level 4 or so, then open it up to CR1.

[Easy_Lee]

It ceases to really be a problem eventually - I haven't played myself, but the general consensus is that moon druids are absurd until 4, at which point they're still quite strong, and then they taper off at 5.

This is mostly because CR 1 creatures are really, really strong compared to level 2-3 characters. I would just limit the druid to CR 1/2 creatures until level 4 or so, then open it up to CR1.

This is a pretty common houserule. You could also try targetting the moon druid's weak saves, such as CHA and INT.

[Person_Man]

I agree that the issue tapers of at level 5th-ish+.

But I would also say that Wild Shape can be used a limited number of times per day and for limited durations.

Instead of tradition dungeon grinds, try having a number of different adventure locations with different types of encounters (roleplaying, puzzles, traps, riddles, scouting, environmental hazards, combat, etc) and plot triggers. Let the players move freely between them to resolve the plot triggers however they choose. For example, if they come to a bridge that is being guarded by trolls, don't imply that killing the trolls (ie, combat) is the best or easiest way to resolve the quest. Maybe the trolls can be bribed, or tricked, or led away, or distracted while you steal their treasure, or whatever.

A bear or whatever can't just roam around a town or civilized encampment or interact normally with NPCs, and may have difficulty with certain types of puzzles or environmental hazards. Plus travel time between adventure locations eats into the Wildshap duration, and being able to choose and move between multiple adventure locations adds to the illusion of player control.

There's nothing wrong with Wild Shape. It just needs to be treated more like Rage or high level spells with Concentration - something a player does to be awesome a limited number of times per day - and not the default form that the Druid spends all their time in.

[Gnomes2169]

A CR 1-3 monster with a fear aura or charm effect works rather well... Or you could throw an intellect devourer at tank, the druid of legend and lord of the bears, and then laugh and laugh*...

*Actual laughter is discouraged by the evil DM society. Instead, cackle. Or even better, wait until the players leave the room and then cackle gleefully

[edge2054]

Wizards don't start off with every spell in the game in their spellbook. Moon Druids don't start off having seen every beast in the monster manual either.

[Easy_Lee]

Wizards don't start off with every spell in the game in their spellbook. Moon Druids don't start off having seen every beast in the monster manual either.

While that's true, it's pretty easy for a druid, who spends his days outside, to say he saw a bear once.

[hymer]

This is a pretty common houserule. You could also try targetting the moon druid's weak saves, such as CHA and INT.

Druids are proficient in Int saves.


A CR 1-3 monster with a fear aura or charm effect works rather well...

Druids are proficient in Wis saves.

[Easy_Lee]

Druids are proficient in Int saves. Druids are proficient in Wis saves.

Firstly, while druids are proficient, most dump int because it's the generally least useful stat. At level 2, the druid will have a +1 mod on int saves. That's really low. High levels will be different, but we aren't concerned with high levels; by then, druids aren't OP.

Secondly, most charm effects are charisma, not wisdom. Turning the druid on his own party is probably one of the meanest but most effective ways to deal with him.

[Gnomes2169]

Druids are proficient in Int saves.

Druids are proficient in Wis saves.

So they do, except their saving throws are replaced by their form's saving throws. So when wildshaped, their proficiencies don't matter.

Wisdom saving throws are important... For spell fear and charm saves. Monsters, on the other hand, almost always target charisma with their fear auras, and seem to have a 50/ 50 chance of charming effects targeting wisdom or charisma. Also, again, your saving throws are replaced by your wild shape's...

[NeoSeraphi]

Secondly, most charm effects are charisma, not wisdom. Turning the druid on his own party is probably one of the meanest but most effective ways to deal with him.

How is pitting the .CR 1 animal druid against 3-4 level 2 pcs effective? Sounds more like punishing the other players to me

[MadGrady]

So they do, except their saving throws are replaced by their form's saving throws. So when wildshaped, their proficiencies don't matter.

Wisdom saving throws are important... For spell fear and charm saves. Monsters, on the other hand, almost always target charisma with their fear auras, and seem to have a 50/ 50 chance of charming effects targeting wisdom or charisma. Also, again, your saving throws are replaced by your wild shape's...

AFB, so I might have this more exagerrated than it is, so please feel free to call out, but I believe that they keep all their proficiencies (yes the actual ability stats change, but they still get to add prof bonus to it)

[Demonic Spoon]

Wizards don't start off with every spell in the game in their spellbook. Moon Druids don't start off having seen every beast in the monster manual either.


They don't need to. They need to have seen one Cr1 creature before in their life. It's pretty absurd to say that a druid who (for example) grew up and lived the past 10 years in a forest couldn't have ever seen a bear before.

[hymer]

AFB, so I might have this more exagerrated than it is, so please feel free to call out, but I believe that they keep all their proficiencies (yes the actual ability stats change, but they still get to add prof bonus to it)

Yes. What's more, druids keep their mental stats in wild shape, and moon druids are not exactly starved for stat points. Who knows what this druid's stats look like? You can make perfectly feasible druid arrays with anything from 8 to 14 (or even more for e.g. gnomes and half-elves) in int or cha.
I'm not arguing against targeting a weakness, but let's not give the impression that a druid is supposed to be weak in places where a given druid may well be quite strong.

Edit:

Monsters [...] almost always target charisma with their fear auras, and seem to have a 50/ 50 chance of charming effects targeting wisdom or charisma. Also, again, your saving throws are replaced by your wild shape's...

Just brought my MM to the toilet, and looked at Aboleth, Banshee, Beholder and Dragon, and that's as far as I got. But all the charm and fear under those are wis saves. How sure are you of that 'almost always' and 'fity/fifty split'?

Edit: Looked all the way to 'ghost' and haven't found a charisma save charm or fear effect yet. I'm not sure there is one in the book now.

[Gurka]

Don't misunderstand folks, there are ways to build encounters that circumvent the moon Druid's strengths, which I've been utilizing. What I'm looking for are mechanical tweaks for the class so that the encounters don't have to be onion-proof. Not only is it less involved where planning sessions is concerned, but nobody likes to feel picked on. If session after session has encounters that keep the druid from utilizing their strengths, they will likely feel exactly that: picked on.

There have been a couple of viable suggestions so far, and hopefully more to come. I expect I'm not the only DM to see the moon druid as a bit of a conundrum early in a campaign, and hopefully this thread can help some others too.

[MaxWilson]

Don't misunderstand folks, there are ways to build encounters that circumvent the moon Druid's strengths, which I've been utilizing. What I'm looking for are mechanical tweaks for the class so that the encounters don't have to be onion-proof. Not only is it less involved where planning sessions is concerned, but nobody likes to feel picked on. If session after session has encounters that keep the druid from utilizing their strengths, they will likely feel exactly that: picked on.

The best mechanical tweak is to just increase the total level of the party, which happens naturally anyway. Moon Druids are awesome fun with great utility, but it's actually rather hard for them to find wildshapes that are stronger than an 11th level fighter. Mostly they are just great big bags of temp HP and medium-low to medium damage. Or rather, the shapechange ability is mostly a big bag of temp HP. The Moon Druid himself, in human form, has other ways to contribute including excellent buffing spells (Longstrider, Free Movement, Enhance Ability), battlefield shaping spells (Spike Stones), conjuration spells (Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, Conjure Minor Elementals), and blasting spells (Fire Storm). But the shapechange ability itself is best at very low levels where Dire Wolves are actually impressive, and at 20th level where you can do fun stuff like turn into a sparrow to eavesdrop without feeling like you should find a more efficient way that doesn't waste a limited resource.

I'm curious why you feel the need to circumvent the Moon Druids' strengths, anyway. Why not just up the difficulty of the encounters, since you have a party capable of handling it? Are you concerned that the party is brittle? E.g. moon druid dies and then the whole party evaporates because he was the only one contributing? In my 5E experience so far, that shouldn't happen with an effective party, so I'm guessing that your party is mostly casual gamers and that the Moon Druid is stronger than expected mostly by accident as opposed to because the player knew it was going to be strong at 2nd level. Yes/no?

[Easy_Lee]

There have been a couple of viable suggestions so far, and hopefully more to come. I expect I'm not the only DM to see the moon druid as a bit of a conundrum early in a campaign, and hopefully this thread can help some others too.

Limiting wildshape CR at low levels is the only limitation I know of, and it should be all you need. If you're trying to limit his versatility, I really don't think that's possible without taking away wildshape entirely. Shapechanging is crazy useful, as it would be IRL. That's why druids can only do it twice per short rest until high levels and can't take flying or aquatic forms at 2.

CR 1 at 4 or 5 is fine. The druid will have to rely more on his spellcasting after that since other classes will start to shine later.

[Gnomes2169]

Limiting wildshape CR at low levels is the only limitation I know of, and it should be all you need. If you're trying to limit his versatility, I really don't think that's possible without taking away wildshape entirely. Shapechanging is crazy useful, as it would be IRL. That's why druids can only do it twice per short rest until high levels and can't take flying or aquatic forms at 2.

CR 1 at 4 or 5 is fine. The druid will have to rely more on his spellcasting after that since other classes will start to shine later.

Just going to make mention of the fact that you can only copy a CR 1 creature at level 8 according to the wildshape class feature chart and scurry away now... *scurries*

[Demonic Spoon]

Just going to make mention of the fact that you can only copy a CR 1 creature at level 8 according to the wildshape class feature chart and scurry away now... *scurries*


For land druids.

Moon druids get CR1 at level 2.

[Gnomes2169]

For land druids.

Moon druids get CR1 at level 2.

Actually, for general druids. (MoMF is a subclass and the exception, other subclasses are going to use the base wild shape) As the discussion was about wild shape in general, I thought it might be a good point to bring up.

[hymer]

Actually, for general druids. (MoMF is a subclass and the exception, other subclasses are going to use the base wild shape) As the discussion was about wild shape in general, I thought it might be a good point to bring up.

I'm confused now. What's MoMF? For that matter, what is a general druid? As far as I know, there are land druids and moon druids, no general ones.

[Demonic Spoon]

MOMF isn't a thing. It's one of the two subclasses (hardly an exception), and we are quite clearly talking about moon druids specifically.

[Maxilian]

Well you could try taking the druid away from the group and make him fight by himself every now and then, they will fill pretty good after they beat a couple of monster by themselfs but also let the rest of the players fight an epic mob, so they will feel that they are also doing something epic (even if the druid lose his chance to fight alongside his teammates, he will feel powerfull),a table where all PC are happy, is a good table :smallsmile: