Seven Heavens, Seven Palms: Building an Unarmed Holy Dude

[Red Fel]

Hello again, nouns! It's time for another exciting build thread.

Recently, I was watching some unnecessary wuxia movies. For those unfamiliar with the term, this refers to the high-action and high-flavor Chinese films such as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - lots of wire-fu, personal drama and tragedy, incredible action sequences, characters with cool names like "Judge of the Desert" and "Eternal Dragon Slumbering," weapons with names like "Truth-Seeking Dragon Mace" and "Spectacular Green Destiny," and attacks with names like "Lion's Roar" and "Stunning Buddha Palm." Awesome, awesome stuff.

Anyway, that inspired me. So in the spirit of something not remotely associated with the Halloween season (shock, surprise, alarm!) I want to build an awesome martial artist. For that, as always, I need your help.

The concept is open, but here are the core components. Must be an unarmed combatant. Need not be exclusively unarmed, but must be effective at unarmed combat. Need have some sort of divine or holy elements. Could be Paladin, could be Cleric, could be Druid, could be none of the above. The focus of the build must be the melee component. The divine component is supporting. Turning this build into a full-casting Cleric may be optimal, but it doesn't fit the flavor. Gishing is acceptable. I came up with an attack. It's in the thread title. "Seven Heavens, Seven Palms." The build must have a way of performing this attack. I have no idea what it is, but it needs to be a thing, and the thing needs to be in the build.
Moving on, the rules: Race and Templates: Any. LA not to exceed +3, buyoff assumed. LA +0 preferred. Class: Any, provided that the overall combination meets the core components outlined above. Alignment: Any, but preferably non-Evil. Sources: 3.0/3.5 or PF. No mixing. If 3.X, no third party; Dragon Compendium is acceptable, Dragon Magazine is discouraged. If PF, no third party except for DSP. Cheese: Minimal to moderate. Playable cheddar, please.
Pencils up, and... 开始! (It means "begin." I think.)

[Elricaltovilla]

For Pathfinder without 3rd party, Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) monk is probably your best archetype. I also like to combine it with Hungry Ghost Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk), although I'm not 100% sure that's legal as I think they both affect Stunning Fist. Alternatively, the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler) is a great class for fisticuffs, although it lacks a lot of mysticism that the monk has flavor-wise.

Now if you want to throw Dreamscarred Press into the mix, you have (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker) a ton (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) of choices (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando-warlord-archetype). The lynchpin of DSP's unarmed stuff is the Broken Blade Discipline, although many other disciplines also play nice with unarmed strikes, specifically Thrashing Dragon, Steel Serpent, and Primal Fury.

What you'll want to do is dump strength and grab Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final) and Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) as quickly as possible. Improved Unarmed Strike and Greater Unarmed Strike come next (playing a Human Steelfist Commando Warlord will net you Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility and IUS at level 1, with room for something extra you want). After that, look at getting TWF feats for extra attacks with your fists, as a lot of punch friendly maneuvers benefit from you having multiple attacks per round. Also look at Weapon Group Adaptation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Weapon-Group-Adaptation-Combat-) to make your fists Discipline Weapons for all your disciplines.

Your best choices are Steelfist Commando Warlords (see if you can join the Bloody Fangs to trade Solar Wind for Primal Fury) and Dervish Defender Warders for access to the heavenly trio of Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon and Primal Fury, their Dex focus, and easy access to the slew of feats you want.

Check my guides (located in my sig) for your best racial choices. FOCUS ON DEX!!!

[SamsDisciple]

Seven Heavens, Seven Palms... You need to go synthesist summoner, your eidolon is a manifestation of your holy ancestors, get a total of 8 arms and hold a shield in one hand for AC while attacking with the rest, get wings (fluff it into being 7 wings) and attack from the sky. The eidolon suit looks less like a separate monster and more like a glowing spirit suspending you in the air.

[Cruiser1]

Must be an unarmed combatant.
Need have some sort of divine or holy elements. Turning this build into a full-casting Cleric may be optimal, but it doesn't fit the flavor.
"Seven Heavens, Seven Palms."
Alignment: Any, but preferably non-Evil.
Start as a Monk PrC'ing into Sacred Fist (CD). Monk is suboptimal, but Sacred Fist advances Cleric Casting as well as Monk abilities, so you're a group-contributing Tier 1 caster in the guise of a Monk. Use your Cleric spells to buff yourself into an awesome unarmed melee fighter. Fluff it so you're not casting like a Wizard, but using your faith and angsty backstory to transform yourself into the ultimate fighter, which fits wuxia stories. :smallwink:

"Seven Heavens" suggests the Seven Heavens of Celestia, meaning the character is LG. After Sacred Fist, PrC into Fist of Raziel (BoED) which requires LG alignment. Fist of Raziel gives your Smite Evil (Su) a bunch of extra abilities. Specifically you get a "good confirming holy fieldsmite chain Smite Evil". Add in a few Cleric buffs and your Smite Evil transmits seven special abilities ("Seven Palms") based on holy LG abilities ("Seven Heavens"), hence the name of the attack. :smallcool:

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, this is a challenge that I can sink my teeth into.

My first attempt seems like it's going to be a monk/ranger, using Ascetic Hunter to acquire some good bonuses to Stunning Fist DCs. Did you read the recent Birdman Stunner thread? Could probably cram another trick or two from that in there if the stunning sounds appealing.

So, looks like starting with Monk 2/Ranger 3/Tattooed Monk X. Maybe Mystic Ranger? Is that among the Dragon Magazine material that would be acceptable? Mystic SwotAO sounds like it would be pretty boss, but that far along and I'm tempted to go Kung-Fu Genius and make this an arcane gish monk, which isn't the point of the challenge.:smallamused:

Well, I will putter around with this concept. Basically, I'd probably propose a refluff of the ranger stuff and tattoos to being elaborately named techniques passed down by a sacred order of monks that live in the wilderness, eschewing the comforts of civilization.

Hmm. Maybe Legacy Champion to continue the tattoos. Having more than five tattoos really makes the math explode very nicely; don't know if Legacy Champ would work for that, I've only done it with the epic Tattooed Monk progression. Or perhaps Hellreaver for more anti-evil holiness flavor.

[Gray Mage]

A simple one would be one or two levels of Monk for the bonus feats, then cleric, proceeding into Sacred Fist (complete divine, use the text rules for advancing casting instead of the table). Sacred Fist gives you the ability to use Sacred Flames once a day (two, later), which gives you bonus damage equal to your class level on Sacred Fist plus your wis mod. This, plus Law Devotion (from Complete Divine) and maybe some buff spells (surge of fortune seems good, as you could get a critical, you only need to roll to confirm) could be your Seven Heavens, Seven Palms special attack?

[Prime32]

Sources: 3.0/3.5 or PF. No mixing. If 3.X, no third party; Dragon Compendium is acceptable, Dragon Magazine is discouraged. If PF, no third party except for DSP.Discouraged, eh? A shame because Dragon magazine has plenty of material for this, like the Holy MonkDr310 and Sacred StrikeDr346 ACFs...

My first thought on the Seven Heavens thing was some kind of gish build that channels prismatic spells through its attacks, but that doesn't leave much room for holiness.

[Elricaltovilla]

Alright, I'll crack out the skeleton of a build here. This is just a straight progression of Steelfist Commando Warlord from Dreamscarred Press's Path of War.

LG Human Steelfist Commando Warlord
(25 pt. buy)
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (16+2 Racial)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Skills- 4+1 (Human) per level. Max Acrobatics, Survival, Perception, Sense Motive and Diplomacy

Hit Dice: d10+2 CON+ 1 Favored Class for avg. 8.5 HP per level.


RF1-Weapon Finesse
BF1- Improved Unarmed Strike (Steelfist Commando)
1- Deadly Agility
BF3- Greater Unarmed Strike (Steelfist Commando)
3- Two Weapon Fighting
5- Victorious Recovery
BF6- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7- Agile Maneuvers
9- Martial Charge
11- Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13- Weapon Group Adaptation (Unarmed Strikes)
BF14- Improved Feint
15- Discipline Mastery (Broken Blade)
17- Advanced Study (Extra Maneuvers)
BF18- Advanced Study (Even More Maneuvers!)
19- Advanced Study (All The Maneuvers!!!)


Make sure you join the Bloody Fangs at 1st level to swap Solar Wind for Primal Fury (since you lost Primal Fury for becoming a Steelfist Commando).

Gambits- Brave Gambit, Acrobatic Gambit, Unbreakable Gambit, Victory Gambit, Sweeping Gambit, Gatecrasher Gambit, Rascal's Gambit.

Disciplines- Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury give you lots of unarmed strike attacks and are highly mobile. A smattering of Steel Serpent allows you to deal some ability score damage to targets and plays nicely with unarmed strikes.

Thanks to the Warlord's Dual Boost and Dual Stance class features, at 20th level you can have 2 stances active, activate 2 boosts and then hit them with a 9th level strike. A good example would be:


Storm of Iron Fists Strike/Wrath of the Primal Hunter (9th level Strikes)- Full Attack with +4d6 per attack, ignores DR.
Adamantine Knuckle (7th level boost)- Unarmed Strikes do +6d6 damage for 1 round and ignore DR/Hardness
Unbreakable Talons (6th level boost)- While TWFing, attacks do +4d6 damage and count as Adamantine
Broken Blade Stance (3rd level stance)- Make 2 extra unarmed strikes when TWFing (no stacking restrictions)
Pugilist Stance (1st level stance)- Unarmed Strikes inflict +1d6 damage, +1d6/8initiator levels (total +3d6 damage per attack)
If the target is flat footed you do an extra +2d6 per attack thanks to Steelfist Commando's Powerful Pugilist ability


That's a total of 1d10+Dex+19d6 (Avg 76 with stats posted above) damage per attack that ignores all DR, with a minimum of 9 attacks (4 from base, 3 from GTWF, 2 from Broken Blade Stance) with the chance for more if extra attacks from Broken Blade Stance stack with speed or haste. So a little bit more than 7 palms, but you get the idea.

[Yomega]

My thoughts would be the sacred fist archtype of the pathfinder Warpriest multi classed into Master of many styles Monk using a combination of the bonebreaker feat chain and spells to attack all 6 attributes and the 7th 'palm' to either inflict negative levels or death.

Highly un op but man that would be fun to play.

[Red Fel]

Holy crumbs. I leave this afternoon, no replies, I figure the thread will languish. I get back from dinner, bam, punched in the face by responses!

I'd like to make an observation. I was very careful, in the OP, not to mention Monk, and there's a reason. I didn't want to bias the results, but I had a hunch that people would see "mystical unarmed combatant" and think "Monk." I'm not opposed to the idea, but I was hoping that it wouldn't be the only suggestion I saw. Thankfully, y'all did not disappoint.

So let's dive right in!

First up is Elric with a tonne (metric, naturally) of PF stuff:

For Pathfinder without 3rd party, Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) monk is probably your best archetype. I also like to combine it with Hungry Ghost Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/hungry-ghost-monk), although I'm not 100% sure that's legal as I think they both affect Stunning Fist. Alternatively, the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler) is a great class for fisticuffs, although it lacks a lot of mysticism that the monk has flavor-wise.

Yeah, MoMS and HG don't stack. And while they're great stylistically, neither one touches on the particular flavor of this build concept, although I'm a fan of MoMS generally. I also appreciate Brawler, but as you point out, it's a bit flavorless.


Now if you want to throw Dreamscarred Press into the mix, you have (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker) a ton (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) of choices (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/steelfist-commando-warlord-archetype). The lynchpin of DSP's unarmed stuff is the Broken Blade Discipline, although many other disciplines also play nice with unarmed strikes, specifically Thrashing Dragon, Steel Serpent, and Primal Fury.

I've really gotten to like DSP's take on ToB. It's classy and flavorful, and it reads like it would play beautifully.


Alright, I'll crack out the skeleton of a build here. This is just a straight progression of Steelfist Commando Warlord from Dreamscarred Press's Path of War.

LG Human Steelfist Commando Warlord
(25 pt. buy)
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (16+2 Racial)
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Skills- 4+1 (Human) per level. Max Acrobatics, Survival, Perception, Sense Motive and Diplomacy

Hit Dice: d10+2 CON+ 1 Favored Class for avg. 8.5 HP per level.


RF1-Weapon Finesse
BF1- Improved Unarmed Strike (Steelfist Commando)
1- Deadly Agility
BF3- Greater Unarmed Strike (Steelfist Commando)
3- Two Weapon Fighting
5- Victorious Recovery
BF6- Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7- Agile Maneuvers
9- Martial Charge
11- Greater Two Weapon Fighting
13- Weapon Group Adaptation (Unarmed Strikes)
BF14- Improved Feint
15- Discipline Mastery (Broken Blade)
17- Advanced Study (Extra Maneuvers)
BF18- Advanced Study (Even More Maneuvers!)
19- Advanced Study (All The Maneuvers!!!)


Make sure you join the Bloody Fangs at 1st level to swap Solar Wind for Primal Fury (since you lost Primal Fury for becoming a Steelfist Commando).

Gambits- Brave Gambit, Acrobatic Gambit, Unbreakable Gambit, Victory Gambit, Sweeping Gambit, Gatecrasher Gambit, Rascal's Gambit.

Disciplines- Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury give you lots of unarmed strike attacks and are highly mobile. A smattering of Steel Serpent allows you to deal some ability score damage to targets and plays nicely with unarmed strikes.

Thanks to the Warlord's Dual Boost and Dual Stance class features, at 20th level you can have 2 stances active, activate 2 boosts and then hit them with a 9th level strike. A good example would be:


Storm of Iron Fists Strike/Wrath of the Primal Hunter (9th level Strikes)- Full Attack with +4d6 per attack, ignores DR.
Adamantine Knuckle (7th level boost)- Unarmed Strikes do +6d6 damage for 1 round and ignore DR/Hardness
Unbreakable Talons (6th level boost)- While TWFing, attacks do +4d6 damage and count as Adamantine
Broken Blade Stance (3rd level stance)- Make 2 extra unarmed strikes when TWFing (no stacking restrictions)
Pugilist Stance (1st level stance)- Unarmed Strikes inflict +1d6 damage, +1d6/8initiator levels (total +3d6 damage per attack)
If the target is flat footed you do an extra +2d6 per attack thanks to Steelfist Commando's Powerful Pugilist ability


That's a total of 1d10+Dex+19d6 (Avg 76 with stats posted above) damage per attack that ignores all DR, with a minimum of 9 attacks (4 from base, 3 from GTWF, 2 from Broken Blade Stance) with the chance for more if extra attacks from Broken Blade Stance stack with speed or haste. So a little bit more than 7 palms, but you get the idea.

Best part? I can do the seven palms. (I suppose nine palms is just as good, maybe even better.) It's flashy, it's vicious, best of all, it's effective. I like!


Seven Heavens, Seven Palms... You need to go synthesist summoner, your eidolon is a manifestation of your holy ancestors, get a total of 8 arms and hold a shield in one hand for AC while attacking with the rest, get wings (fluff it into being 7 wings) and attack from the sky. The eidolon suit looks less like a separate monster and more like a glowing spirit suspending you in the air.

... Huh. Now there's an interesting idea. Kind of going a bit of One-Winged Angel (Seven-Winged?), with the whole "This is not even my ultimate form!" It's definitely a different take on the concept. But it strikes me as less of a martial artist with a cool signature move, and more a dude who turns into a celestial smackstick. And I'm also not entirely sure how effective that smackstick will be.


Start as a Monk PrC'ing into Sacred Fist (CD). Monk is suboptimal, but Sacred Fist advances Cleric Casting as well as Monk abilities, so you're a group-contributing Tier 1 caster in the guise of a Monk. Use your Cleric spells to buff yourself into an awesome unarmed melee fighter. Fluff it so you're not casting like a Wizard, but using your faith and angsty backstory to transform yourself into the ultimate fighter, which fits wuxia stories. :smallwink:

Yeah, I knew this would come up. Problem is, the 3.5 Monk is just lackluster. Now, I'm not just talking about the suboptimal mechanics; I'm talking about the flavor. Sacred Fist... It does fit the "holy monk" model, but it isn't terribly impressive mechanically, either.


"Seven Heavens" suggests the Seven Heavens of Celestia, meaning the character is LG. After Sacred Fist, PrC into Fist of Raziel (BoED) which requires LG alignment. Fist of Raziel gives your Smite Evil (Su) a bunch of extra abilities. Specifically you get a "good confirming holy fieldsmite chain Smite Evil". Add in a few Cleric buffs and your Smite Evil transmits seven special abilities ("Seven Palms") based on holy LG abilities ("Seven Heavens"), hence the name of the attack. :smallcool:

Those are the precise Seven Heavens to which I was referring. And bam, Fist of Raziel. I love that PrC. And... Hokey smokes, you're right. Let's count. Takes Smite Evil. Adds Good-aligned (1), Confirming (2), Holy (3), Fiendsmite (4), and Chain (5). Adds Sanctify Martial Strike (6), and Holy Martial Strike (7). Well done! Honestly, we could kind of skip Sacred Fist and go straight to FoR - heck, it's even got a good name for it (Fist of Raziel, for crying out loud)! Well spotted!


Alright, this is a challenge that I can sink my teeth into.

My first attempt seems like it's going to be a monk/ranger, using Ascetic Hunter to acquire some good bonuses to Stunning Fist DCs. Did you read the recent Birdman Stunner thread? Could probably cram another trick or two from that in there if the stunning sounds appealing.

So, looks like starting with Monk 2/Ranger 3/Tattooed Monk X. Maybe Mystic Ranger? Is that among the Dragon Magazine material that would be acceptable? Mystic SwotAO sounds like it would be pretty boss, but that far along and I'm tempted to go Kung-Fu Genius and make this an arcane gish monk, which isn't the point of the challenge.:smallamused:

Well, I will putter around with this concept. Basically, I'd probably propose a refluff of the ranger stuff and tattoos to being elaborately named techniques passed down by a sacred order of monks that live in the wilderness, eschewing the comforts of civilization.

Hmm. Maybe Legacy Champion to continue the tattoos. Having more than five tattoos really makes the math explode very nicely; don't know if Legacy Champ would work for that, I've only done it with the epic Tattooed Monk progression. Or perhaps Hellreaver for more anti-evil holiness flavor.

You've got a lot of moving pieces there, chief. I look forward to seeing you assemble them.


A simple one would be one or two levels of Monk for the bonus feats, then cleric, proceeding into Sacred Fist (complete divine, use the text rules for advancing casting instead of the table). Sacred Fist gives you the ability to use Sacred Flames once a day (two, later), which gives you bonus damage equal to your class level on Sacred Fist plus your wis mod. This, plus Law Devotion (from Complete Divine) and maybe some buff spells (surge of fortune seems good, as you could get a critical, you only need to roll to confirm) could be your Seven Heavens, Seven Palms special attack?

Well, Cruiser mentioned Sacred Fist above. And while that technically satisfies "unarmed combatant" and "holy elements," it is, as discussed above, a bit lackluster. Besides, there are so many options out there - picking a straightforward Monk/Cleric theurge almost feels like a cop-out!


Discouraged, eh? A shame because Dragon magazine has plenty of material for this, like the Holy MonkDr310 and Sacred StrikeDr346 ACFs...

My first thought on the Seven Heavens thing was some kind of gish build that channels prismatic spells through its attacks, but that doesn't leave much room for holiness.

Don't know those two, off the top of my head. And nobody says it has to actually be divine. It could simply come across as divine or holy. As long as it fits. Something prismatic, refluffed to be the "light of the heavens" or some crap like that, could work. What've you got?


My thoughts would be the sacred fist archtype of the pathfinder Warpriest multi classed into Master of many styles Monk using a combination of the bonebreaker feat chain and spells to attack all 6 attributes and the 7th 'palm' to either inflict negative levels or death.

Highly un op but man that would be fun to play.

Hmm... Warpriest gets you Cleric-style casting and some combat ability. Sacred Fist mixes it up with Monk elements. Then grab MoMS Monk, and... Hmm. When you say Bonebreaker, do you mean Jawbreaker/Bonebreaker/Neckbreaker? First strike silences the guilty, second strike crushes his limbs, third strike stills his heart... I like it! Problem is, I don't think they're Style feats - I think they're Combat feats. The MoMS Monk gets Style feats. So this might be a lot more feat-intensive than one would like.

[Fax Celestis]

I've always wanted to wrangle together a Paladin/Monk/Sun Soul Monk (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4), but I've never actually been able to get it to come together. Serenity is required, Ascetic Knight is a trap.

You'd probably be better served with a psychic warrior/monk/psychic weapon master build with two doses of Talashtora, though. Deep Impact, Greatet Psionic Strike, etc., could be your named attacks, and Stunning Fist in conjunction with hammer or a bigger touch-range power could be your 7h7p.

[Red Fel]

I've always wanted to wrangle together a Paladin/Monk/Sun Soul Monk (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050601a&page=4), but I've never actually been able to get it to come together. Serenity is required, Ascetic Knight is a trap.

Okay, let's look at each of the things. Monk is obvious, gives us all of our prereqs except for Athletic (ugh, feat tax). Paladin... I guess you're including that for Smite Evil? I'm not sure what it does in the build. Serenity, obviously, because Monkadin. Ascetic Knight... Yeah, since Paladin is unlikely to be more than a dip, and SSM doesn't count as either for purposes of the feat, it's a trap.

So let's talk Sun Soul. First off, it advances Monk features, and gives you several you'd miss out on from PrCing (Abundant Step, Tongue of Sun and Moon). On top of that, it gives a list of per-day abilities, to wit: Daylight Searing Light Flaming, Flaming Burst, or Brilliant Energy unarmed strikes Fire Shield SunbeamOh, and now I get why you wanted Paladin; it counts towards the CL of those per-day abilities. Makes sense, I suppose.

Oh, and you get Low-light Vision and Darkvision, too.

Honestly, it doesn't wow me, as a class. True, you're not giving up a lot (it's not like Monk had much to begin with), but all you're really getting are a smattering of SLAs.

It fits the whole "heavenly light" theme, but... I dunno. It just feels like it's missing something.


You'd probably be better served with a psychic warrior/monk/psychic weapon master build with two doses of Talashtora, though. Deep Impact, Greatet Psionic Strike, etc., could be your named attacks, and Stunning Fist in conjunction with hammer or a bigger touch-range power could be your 7h7p.

Okay, hold up, which PWM are we talking about - this one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a) or this one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)? (I'm guessing the latter.)

Now, before we get into anything, I didn't think you could take Tashalatora twice. I thought the general rule was that a feat could only be taken once, unless it explicitly said otherwise. Further, even if you could take Tash twice, doesn't that mean you'd have to take Monastic Training twice as well? Or would you argue that you could take Monastic twice, and both classes would count towards Tash?

And there's another problem: both versions of PWM require a Crystal Melee Weapon, which RAI is supposed to be your weapon of choice. The language is pretty clear that it needs to be an actual crystal melee weapon, which means unarmed strikes are out. While a PWM could theoretically use unarmed strikes in addition to the focal weapon, many of the PWM's features apply only to the weapon of choice. Further, PWM gives only partial advancement to PsyWar, which hurts that angle.

Assuming we write off PWM, however, I think you've got something interesting. Greater Psionic Fist sounds like a fun little treat; I also notice that it's part of the chain that includes Unavoidable Strike, which is a bit more thematically appropriate than Deep Impact. With IUS, Tashalatora, and possibly SUS, that means a lot of unarmed strike damage; with the right tools to treat the blows as magical and overcome DR, that's really quite impressive stuff. Ignoring PWM, I think there's some interesting potential for a psychic "holy" monk.

And as an aside, Ring the Golden Bell (Dragon Compendium) lets you make those ranged attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

You could be a psiforged and make your battlefist out of deep crystal.

I always forget Talashtora doesn't have the same clauses that Practiced Spellcaster, etc. have.

Also, and I can't believe I'm suggesting this, you could do divine mind instead of psywar for a more divine feeling.

[Val666]

Ok...Though it is a bit..."dipped" it have a good fluff and it is under your terms (for the exception of Shiba protector because his 3.5 update was in Dragon Mags)

Swordsage 2/ Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/ Paladin 5/ Shiba Protector 1/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frost Rager 5

Feats (assuming flaws):
1) Nymph's Kiss (level 1), Improved Unarmed Strike (swordsage), Weapon Focus (Swordsage),
Touch of Golden Ice (Human), Alertness (flaw), Great Fortitude (flaw)
3) Intuitive Attack
5) Combat Expertise (fighter)
6) Iron Will
6) Power Attack (fighter)
9) Serenity
12) Snap Kick
15) Frozen Berserker
18) Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)

You end up with 18 BAB, Fort 19, Ref 8, Will 8. You will max out Wisdom. With the build you'll get Wisdom to:
AC, for attack instead of str, again to attack, to damage, saves. But you still have to get something that is not
showed above. The Saint Template. It will net you Wisdom to AC again, More Wis, Cha, Extra damage against evil
creatures, immunities, fast healing, etc etc etc. obviously you will buy off the LA. You also get Con to AC.

But why did I make so many dips at all? Well just for fluff :v If you take closer look there are 7 different classes over there. Each of them represents the Seven Heavens:

Swordsage: The Heaven of Swiftness
Barbarian: The Heaven of Fury
Fighter: The Heaven of Physical Strength
Paladin: The Heaven of Rectitude
Shiba Protector: The Heaven of Protection
Fist of the Forest: The Heaven of Wilderness
Frostrager: The Heaven of Stamina

...Aaaaaand the icing on the cake. You get a total of 7 unarmed strikes from the build. 4 from bab, 1 from snap kick, 1 from Whirling Frenzy and 1 from One-two Punch.

Hope you like it. If not...I'll cry u.u

[Prime32]

So... besides the Sun Soul Monk PrC, there's a feat of the same name in Champions of Valor. One of the options is a special attack that turns undead creatures struck by your unarmed strike, regardless of HD, unless they succeed on a Will save. 1/day on its own, but you can expend a use of Stunning Fist or Turn Undead instead.


Don't know those two, off the top of my head. And nobody says it has to actually be divine. It could simply come across as divine or holy. As long as it fits.Holy Monk gets the paladin's Aura of Courage, Smite Evil and Turn Undead.

Sacred Strike gets Smite Evil 1+Wis/day(!), later upgrading to stun targets on a failed Will save, then to auto-blind them.


Something prismatic, refluffed to be the "light of the heavens" or some crap like that, could work. What've you got?Eh... best I could come up with was an Enlightened Fist channeling prismatic ray.

[D4rkh0rus]

A divine monk? That had not ocurred to me, but IF i wanted to recreate a wuxia style fighter, I believe psionics would fill a better space. Something like a Monk 2/Ardent 17/Shiba protector 1 (thrown in as soon as possible). (With Tashalatora of course)

the whole ardent class focuses on meditation and following the teachings of their mantles, their "world view". The monk side has all the grapple/trip goodies, that can be combined to create "moves" This is further exemplified by abusing action economy with Synchronicity Linked to Augmented synchronicity and/or Hustle.

So, theoretically, given enough power points (not that many if using metapower), you could grapple an enemy, then proceed to unleash a flurry of swift punches.

Combine this with some of the psionic powers that have physical effects, For example, tumble into melee range, punch him a few times and cast Cranial deluge on him. You just Fist of the north star'ed him. for less bloody stuff, Im pretty sure theres a power that flings the enemy back and so on.


Of course this is assuming a high OP floor (normal DMs probably wont accept Synchronicity shenanigans).


In terms of Divine monk-like being I need to do some research first...

[Jeff the Green]

What about a Sha'ir 4/Unarmed Swordsage 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 2 (not in that order, obviously)? Sorcerer or Wizard could be swapped in for Sha'ir. Only key feat is Snap Kick. You get one 9th-level maneuver, which is Time Stands Still. When you initiate it you get to make two full attacks with three iteratives each and one extra attack from Snap Kick. There's your seven palms. The divine part comes from JPM, though technically you can also cast divine spells. You could also use Avalanche of blades, possibly combined with something like blade of pain and fear.

Ideally you'd have Ascetic Mage, Arcane Strike, and Practiced Caster. Maybe Shadow Blade too.

Race should be either human or something with +Charisma. So... lesser aasimar. If you feel like templating, half-fire elemental, half-janni, saint, or the aasimar->half-celestial transition class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) would be appropriate. Even better, use the transition class and this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) on adapting half-fiend/celestial for specific parents. Firre eladrin would be appropriate

[Sian]

would suggest something in line with Brother Giergori (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17674720&postcount=51) which i won Zinc XXV with. Between SUS, Pious Templar 10 casting (with Battle Casting for quicker use) and the musings on Fist of Raziel earlier in this thread it should be close. The fluff can very easily be reworked into a very eastern feel

[Taveena]

For 3.5e you could do somethin' like Cleric 9/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 (or 8/2 if you want wis-to-AC) using Martial Study+Stance to meet the Devoted Spirit prereqs. Lots of Kung Fu, holy enough for ninth level spells, and horribly, horribly potent.

Also weirdly sneaky.

You could also go for the obvious option and just play an exalted Swordsage - if you can wrangle it in the Saint template is hilarious (wis*2 to AC is beautiful) and have a bigger focus on the unarmed aspect, using Intuitive Attack for a fun-little wis-SAD build which remains simple and effective.

Sacred Fist has already been mentioned, but still, if you're not entirely opposed to monk a Cleric 5/Monk 1 (or 4/1 with fractionals) then it's a fairly simple way to go.

[Sian]

Otherwise ... a very simple way would be Shaman (OA) with Dragon #318 update, giving it monk-like unarmed progression and slightly less archaic bonus feats, and call it a day

[Red Fel]

You could be a psiforged and make your battlefist out of deep crystal.

I always forget Talashtora doesn't have the same clauses that Practiced Spellcaster, etc. have.

Also, and I can't believe I'm suggesting this, you could do divine mind instead of psywar for a more divine feeling.

Hmm... Deep Crystal Battlefist is a thought. It functions as an unarmed strike, but also a weapon, right?

And... Divine Mind? Dangit, Divine Mind, what are you doing here? You came with Lurk? No, I didn't invite either of you. I know I invited Ardent; he brought the beer. What did you bring? ... Seriously, an aura of crawling chaos? What is the matter with you? Go home!

All seriousness... Hmm. The aura thing is... A thing, at least. I suppose. But... I dunno. I kinda feel like it's creeping away from being melee-oriented if I go with that.


Ok...Though it is a bit..."dipped" it have a good fluff and it is under your terms (for the exception of Shiba protector because his 3.5 update was in Dragon Mags)

Swordsage 2/ Barbarian 2/ Fighter 2/ Paladin 5/ Shiba Protector 1/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Frost Rager 5

Feats (assuming flaws):
1) Nymph's Kiss (level 1), Improved Unarmed Strike (swordsage), Weapon Focus (Swordsage),
Touch of Golden Ice (Human), Alertness (flaw), Great Fortitude (flaw)
3) Intuitive Attack
5) Combat Expertise (fighter)
6) Iron Will
6) Power Attack (fighter)
9) Serenity
12) Snap Kick
15) Frozen Berserker
18) Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)

You end up with 18 BAB, Fort 19, Ref 8, Will 8. You will max out Wisdom. With the build you'll get Wisdom to:
AC, for attack instead of str, again to attack, to damage, saves. But you still have to get something that is not
showed above. The Saint Template. It will net you Wisdom to AC again, More Wis, Cha, Extra damage against evil
creatures, immunities, fast healing, etc etc etc. obviously you will buy off the LA. You also get Con to AC.

But why did I make so many dips at all? Well just for fluff :v If you take closer look there are 7 different classes over there. Each of them represents the Seven Heavens:

Swordsage: The Heaven of Swiftness
Barbarian: The Heaven of Fury
Fighter: The Heaven of Physical Strength
Paladin: The Heaven of Rectitude
Shiba Protector: The Heaven of Protection
Fist of the Forest: The Heaven of Wilderness
Frostrager: The Heaven of Stamina

...Aaaaaand the icing on the cake. You get a total of 7 unarmed strikes from the build. 4 from bab, 1 from snap kick, 1 from Whirling Frenzy and 1 from One-two Punch.

Hope you like it. If not...I'll cry u.u

Okay, first off, the flavor is awesome. Seven classes, seven unarmed strikes. I'd tweak some of the names, but I like what I see. I love the use of the Saint template and the Wis-to-everything-sometimes-twice. Really, really nicely done. I could probably sneak Pounce in there too just to make it obscene. Well done!


So... besides the Sun Soul Monk PrC, there's a feat of the same name in Champions of Valor. One of the options is a special attack that turns undead creatures struck by your unarmed strike, regardless of HD, unless they succeed on a Will save. 1/day on its own, but you can expend a use of Stunning Fist or Turn Undead instead.

Holy Monk gets the paladin's Aura of Courage, Smite Evil and Turn Undead.

Sacred Strike gets Smite Evil 1+Wis/day(!), later upgrading to stun targets on a failed Will save, then to auto-blind them.

Eh... best I could come up with was an Enlightened Fist channeling prismatic ray.

Okay, let's take 'em one at a time. The SSM feat you describe is the Lathander option, and it's actually kind of a cute trick. Clever for an exorcist-themed Monk, and something I'll hold onto for awhile.

Holy Monk... Is basically the Monkadin. What does it give up to get those things?

And Sacred Strike... That's potentially insane. What do you give up to get that? Because that's pretty sick.


A divine monk? That had not ocurred to me, but IF i wanted to recreate a wuxia style fighter, I believe psionics would fill a better space. Something like a Monk 2/Ardent 17/Shiba protector 1 (thrown in as soon as possible). (With Tashalatora of course)

the whole ardent class focuses on meditation and following the teachings of their mantles, their "world view". The monk side has all the grapple/trip goodies, that can be combined to create "moves" This is further exemplified by abusing action economy with Synchronicity Linked to Augmented synchronicity and/or Hustle.

So, theoretically, given enough power points (not that many if using metapower), you could grapple an enemy, then proceed to unleash a flurry of swift punches.

Combine this with some of the psionic powers that have physical effects, For example, tumble into melee range, punch him a few times and cast Cranial deluge on him. You just Fist of the north star'ed him. for less bloody stuff, Im pretty sure theres a power that flings the enemy back and so on.


Of course this is assuming a high OP floor (normal DMs probably wont accept Synchronicity shenanigans).


In terms of Divine monk-like being I need to do some research first...

I was with you for the Monk/Ardent/Shiba part. I got that, I liked it.

... And then you mentioned Kenshiro, and I was too busy squeeing to notice anything else. I like this idea. My issue is the Synchronicity cheese involved. Is there maybe a lower-cheese option?


What about a Sha'ir 4/Unarmed Swordsage 4/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 2 (not in that order, obviously)? Sorcerer or Wizard could be swapped in for Sha'ir. Only key feat is Snap Kick. You get one 9th-level maneuver, which is Time Stands Still. When you initiate it you get to make two full attacks with three iteratives each and one extra attack from Snap Kick. There's your seven palms. The divine part comes from JPM, though technically you can also cast divine spells. You could also use Avalanche of blades, possibly combined with something like blade of pain and fear.

Ideally you'd have Ascetic Mage, Arcane Strike, and Practiced Caster. Maybe Shadow Blade too.

Race should be either human or something with +Charisma. So... lesser aasimar. If you feel like templating, half-fire elemental, half-janni, saint, or the aasimar->half-celestial transition class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a) would be appropriate. Even better, use the transition class and this article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) on adapting half-fiend/celestial for specific parents. Firre eladrin would be appropriate

Interesting. So we're going with a Cha-based combatant as opposed to Wis-based. I'm intrigued. Let's break it down.

Okay. Sha'ir is a prepared caster who can cast arcane and some divine spells. Nice start. 4 levels of Sha'ir give us 2nd-level spells and a Gen familiar. Good so far. USS we all know and love. USS 4 gives us an IL of 6 (USS 4 + Sha 4/2), bunch of maneuvers, weapon focus for a group (which will contain unarmed strikes), initiative bonus, Wis-to-AC, and Wis-to-damage on certain strikes. At that point we qualify for JPM, which advances IL and 8/10 Sha casting. Now, one problem: Ab Champ requires proficiency in at least one martial weapon. If we went with some kind of Elf, it would work, but the problem is that the only class that gives weapon proficiency (Swordsage) doesn't, because we took the Unarmed Adaptation. Assuming we fix that, Ab Champ gets us casting, +2 abjuration spell AC, extended abjuration spells, and swift-cast abjuration spells.

In short, the build becomes a highly effective unarmed caster. Or, more accurately, it becomes an unarmed highly effective caster. First off, BAB is +2 from Sha 4, +3 from USS 4, +10 from JPM, and +2 from AbChamp, totaling +17. That's 4 attacks, not 3. TSS makes it 8 attacks, Snap Kick adds one for each full attack, total 10. It's awesome, but it's not seven. But we can forgive that, because awesome.

The problem is that he actually can't do much with his attacks. His unarmed strike damage is limited by the fact that he only has 4 levels of USS. AbChamp makes it preferable to use his swift actions to cast spells than to use maneuvers, particularly given the fact that he is casting as a 14th-level Sha - not all-powerful, but not too shabby. Further, getting TSS is tricky - you would have to take Swordsage 4 at level 20 in order to guarantee you have the IL and the maneuver to learn.

Overall, it feels... A bit confused, I think.


would suggest something in line with Brother Giergori (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17674720&postcount=51) which i won Zinc XXV with. Between SUS, Pious Templar 10 casting (with Battle Casting for quicker use) and the musings on Fist of Raziel earlier in this thread it should be close. The fluff can very easily be reworked into a very eastern feel

I am intrigued. Tell me more.


Otherwise ... a very simple way would be Shaman (OA) with Dragon #318 update, giving it monk-like unarmed progression and slightly less archaic bonus feats, and call it a day

Yeah... I don't have that issue. S'kind of why I discouraged Dragon Magazine.


For 3.5e you could do somethin' like Cleric 9/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 (or 8/2 if you want wis-to-AC) using Martial Study+Stance to meet the Devoted Spirit prereqs. Lots of Kung Fu, holy enough for ninth level spells, and horribly, horribly potent.

Also weirdly sneaky.

You could also go for the obvious option and just play an exalted Swordsage - if you can wrangle it in the Saint template is hilarious (wis*2 to AC is beautiful) and have a bigger focus on the unarmed aspect, using Intuitive Attack for a fun-little wis-SAD build which remains simple and effective.

Sacred Fist has already been mentioned, but still, if you're not entirely opposed to monk a Cleric 5/Monk 1 (or 4/1 with fractionals) then it's a fairly simple way to go.

Well, let's go at each one.

Cleric/SS/RKV: I like RKV. I really do. This one just feels like... Cheating. I mean, it's basically a martial Cleric with maneuvers. Swordsage was just snuck in there to say, "Look, he's an unarmed fighter!" It's not "lots of kung fu," it's actually very little kung fu. RKV on top of 1 level of Swordsage is going to get you a total of 11 maneuvers known, 6 readied, 3 stances known, and a total IL of 15 - good enough for 8th-level maneuvers. Moderate potency, but that's incidental. The goal is clearly to get CL 17 for 9th-level Cleric spells. It does a fine job of that. But that's not the goal here.

Exalted SS: Tempting, but it feels like a cop-out. I mean, it's better than Monk, sure, but it's basically just another SS, except that he happens to have a neat template. I feel like we could do more.

Sacred Fist: As you mention, it's been mentioned. It's an option, but like Exalted SS, it just feels like a cop-out.

[D4rkh0rus]

I was with you for the Monk/Ardent/Shiba part. I got that, I liked it.

... And then you mentioned Kenshiro, and I was too busy squeeing to notice anything else. I like this idea. My issue is the Synchronicity cheese involved. Is there maybe a lower-cheese option?

To get the same effect? Without using Synchronicity shenanigans, the most you could do, is power up your psicrystal with one of your finisher powers, and hope your full attack (with monk flurry, medium bab, TWF and snap kick going to 9 attacks total, or 7+1d6 attacks if you chose the chaos monk variant.) is enough to have the finisher work.

So in reality you have 2 options, limit your psicrystal (Focus generation) or just OOC'ly limit the cheese, but still use it. Say for example, only cast Synchronicity linked to something 2 or 3 times per round at most, in total it would net you another move or standard action and another full attack at most. Considering that the monk chasis itself isnt the greatest, and the Ardent doesnt get THAT many spells (and isnt meant to be a blaster either), combine this with non-cheese builds that can net out damage equivalent to 3 or 4 full attacks from a monk that doesnt have all the buffs/items for increasing unarmed damage, add in the feat starvation to actually build this and you get something a bit more balanced.

The other way is DM fiat...
Im playing this build in a campaign, DBZ flavoured, so I convinced my DM that If I wanna use my Synchro-linked I have to charge up (I.e Shout with a constipated face) for a number of rounds. Were still working the amount of rounds (mainly the max), but for now he agreed that for every round I charge, I can use synchro linked to something 3 times. So Like I charge for 5 rounds, then I turn super saiyan and obliterate stuff.
Of course, hes only allowing me this cause i'm the only melee fighter, heck i'm the only martial fighter in the group (Erudite, wizard, a Druid that doesn't melee (he only turns into flying creatures) and a artificer. So we kinda need the actual damage, or well need to, when he starts countering the typical god wizard CC.

[Prime32]

Holy Monk... Is basically the Monkadin. What does it give up to get those things?Bonus feats at levels 1 and 6.

And Sacred Strike... That's potentially insane. What do you give up to get that? Because that's pretty sick.Ki Strike and Improved Evasion. Yep.

I've got more stuff in this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10747).

[Fax Celestis]

To get the same effect? Without using Synchronicity shenanigans, the most you could do, is power up your psicrystal with one of your finisher powers, and hope your full attack (with monk flurry, medium bab, TWF and snap kick going to 9 attacks total, or 7+1d6 attacks if you chose the chaos monk variant.) is enough to have the finisher work.

I feel obligated to point out that PFsionics (how's that for a portmanteau?) has a power called dispatch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/d/dispatch) that might be applicable here.

[Psyren]

For PF-only, I'll point you to the Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) handbook (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1bu5RkMqNkZbHpHRF9RX09ZWE0/edit), while also gesturing vaguely towards some of the cool new stuff we got to play with like Pummeling Style.

(Alternatively, go with the Sacred Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/archetypes/paizo---warpriest-archetypes/sacred-fist) archetype.)

[Telonius]

How about this one...

Rogue1/Unarmed Swordsage5/Slayer of Domiel X/ Swordsage X

(You can switch some of the Unarmed Swordsage to Rogue depending on how the DM rules on Assassin's Stance for qualification). Seven Heavens, Seven Palms would be the Death Touch attack.

Or, you could just be a Cleric2/Swordsage18, and Seven Heavens/Seven Palms is either Time Stands Still or Five Shadow etc. Strike.

[Red Fel]

Bonus feats at levels 1 and 6.
Ki Strike and Improved Evasion. Yep.

I've got more stuff in this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10747).

First off, awesome link, thanks.

Second, while I'm not particularly impressed with Holy Monk, it would be useful for meeting PrC prereqs. (TU covers a lot of ground, and Smite has a few of its own.)

And third, Sacred Strike, totally worth it. Outrageously so.


I feel obligated to point out that PFsionics (how's that for a portmanteau?) has a power called dispatch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/d/dispatch) that might be applicable here.

... That... is actually pretty neat. Admittedly, I've heard bad things about CMD scaling, but that looks like it could be a pretty nasty trick.


For PF-only, I'll point you to the Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) handbook (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1bu5RkMqNkZbHpHRF9RX09ZWE0/edit), while also gesturing vaguely towards some of the cool new stuff we got to play with like Pummeling Style.

Oooh, that's pretty. I do like it. It starts off as a Monkadin hybrid-style class, but then... Knowledge checks? Smite as a cleave effect? Shielding allies? Countering crits? It's shiny, I like it. And I happen to like PF's Monks and Pallies just a bit more than 3.X's, for reasons.

And you've given me reason to look at Pummeling Style... Huh. It's like a feat-based, amplified version of Decisive Strike. I can dig. And Pummeling Charge is the new Pounce, nice. And Pummeling Bully is really just icing, isn't it? I do note, however, that while the CoI/CoE counts as Monk levels for the purpose of various abilities, I don't think it actually counts as Monk levels for the purpose of various feats. Thus, while a Monk/CoI could qualify for Pummeling Style, Pummeling Charge is likely out of the question.

But overall... Huh. There's some good material to be used here. To be honest, I tend to overlook PF PrCs - they generally strike me as afterthoughts, with the focus on classes and archetypes. But this one has some very nice flavor...


How about this one...

Rogue1/Unarmed Swordsage5/Slayer of Domiel X/ Swordsage X

(You can switch some of the Unarmed Swordsage to Rogue depending on how the DM rules on Assassin's Stance for qualification). Seven Heavens, Seven Palms would be the Death Touch attack.

Or, you could just be a Cleric2/Swordsage18, and Seven Heavens/Seven Palms is either Time Stands Still or Five Shadow etc. Strike.

Okay. I'll discuss the second one first, because it's a fairly short conversation - Cleric 2/ SS 18 is basically an SS with a touch of Cleric. That's... Not really anything. But I appreciate the effort. (And you do make a good point about Five Shadow Overly Long Name Anime Strike.)

Now, the first. Okay, so Rogue 1/ USS 5/ Slayer, let's say 10/ USS +4. Let's see what we get.

Hmm... Rogue's going to give us some problems, for the reason you pointed out - if Assassin's Stance doesn't let us qualify for Slayer, that's game over right there. Even if it does, it only lets us qualify while we're in Assassin's Stance, which is a nuisance. Slayer gives us SA progression and per-day uses of Death Touch, which... is pretty meh, actually. At capstone, you're rolling 10d6 to see if you're over the opponent's HP. There's no way to augment the roll. At that point, you might as well be performing an actual attack and trying to whittle them down. Other than that, it gives a smattering of spells and Divine Grace. Overall, not excellent, and it cuts back on our maneuver progression. I'm not sold.

[Psyren]

And you've given me reason to look at Pummeling Style... Huh. It's like a feat-based, amplified version of Decisive Strike. I can dig. And Pummeling Charge is the new Pounce, nice. And Pummeling Bully is really just icing, isn't it? I do note, however, that while the CoI/CoE counts as Monk levels for the purpose of various abilities, I don't think it actually counts as Monk levels for the purpose of various feats. Thus, while a Monk/CoI could qualify for Pummeling Style, Pummeling Charge is likely out of the question.

It's monk/brawler level 8 OR BAB +12. Any style feat chain can be taken by anyone, it's just that non-monks, non-brawlers and members of those classes who PrC get them a little later. (And since Champion of Irori is full BAB, you won't be waiting very long anyway.)

[Red Fel]

It's monk/brawler level 8 OR BAB +12. Any style feat chain can be taken by anyone, it's just that non-monks, non-brawlers and members of those classes who PrC get them a little later. (And since Champion of Irori is full BAB, you won't be waiting very long anyway.)

Ooh! That's even better. Do like.

[Sian]

I am intrigued. Tell me more.

bleh? ... Basicly the core idea is to run a Wis SAD unarmed combatant (optionaly with Shiba Protector and/or Saint on top of it) gaining WIS to AC, saves (via Divine Grace->Serenity), toHit (via Intuitive Attack), while being the caster stat for quickened (Battle Blessing) paladin-like spells (Pious Templar) and having empowered, suped up hitting smites to smack people around with (with Wis stat instead of Cha as regular), while otherwise depending on high BAB and SUS for damage (optionally add Snap Kick and/or some way to flurry). If wanting to use weapons, then get some with Scorpion enchantment on them (for a flat fee of +4000gp) for using your higher damage from SUS

[PraxisVetli]

Relevant but probably redundant.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?294225-Moderate-Paladin-Optimization

[Red Fel]

bleh? ... Basicly the core idea is to run a Wis SAD unarmed combatant (optionaly with Shiba Protector and/or Saint on top of it) gaining WIS to AC, saves (via Divine Grace->Serenity), toHit (via Intuitive Attack), while being the caster stat for quickened (Battle Blessing) paladin-like spells (Pious Templar) and having empowered, suped up hitting smites to smack people around with (with Wis stat instead of Cha as regular), while otherwise depending on high BAB and SUS for damage (optionally add Snap Kick and/or some way to flurry). If wanting to use weapons, then get some with Scorpion enchantment on them (for a flat fee of +4000gp) for using your higher damage from SUS

Okay, I gotcha. So it's basically a capable unarmed Wis-to-everything smashfest. I like it. I'd like to compare it with Val's concept in Post #14 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18332816&postcount=14), but I'm not sure I could. On the one hand, Val's emphasizes the use of Barbarian to get me Fist of the Forest and Frostrager, which add things to other things, while the post you linked was essentially a Paladin+, with Wis-to-everything.

It's interesting, but I'd want to compare them.


Relevant but probably redundant.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?294225-Moderate-Paladin-Optimization

Uh... It looked like that thread just turned into a fairly martial Cleric after awhile, didn't it? I mean, it was basically split between Paladin/ Fist of Raziel and DMM Cleric. I... don't really know what else to say about that.

[Phelix-Mu]

The first idea wasn't bad, but now I am totally sidetracked by the idea of combining a clawlock dip and an Aptitude Weapon (I think can be achieved via necklace of natural attacks). The idea is to grant your unarmed attacks the EB damage, and to get some invocations to boot. Still gonna be limited in warlock levels, but I might try fishing around for a PrC to progress them (Enlightened Spirit jumps to mind, and fits the holy flavor).

There are varying degrees of refluff necessary, but I'd probably set a baseline of having celestial ancestry instead of demonic (meaning CG, I guess, though you could change your alignment after your final level of warlock, if you accept that line of reasoning). If I'm cramming monk in here, I guess that means Chaos Monk variant, but that's even more dragon, so instead I'd probably look to either swordsage or crusader for a handful of maneuvers.

A more aggressive refluff might involve deriving all warlock powers not from any outsiders, but from long, meditative study of animal fighting styles (totemic patrons!), or from mystic sutras inscribed in the character's flesh (Saiyuki meets tattooed monk!). Perhaps s/he has been charged with a sacred mission by the monastery/order, and so has been ritually implanted with mystical abilities and holy power (picture a hundred monks chanting sutras around the character, who lies prone on a bier as the master of the order uses accupuncture and tattoos to alter the character's body). There are only about a hundred ideas that I could work on with this concept alone, let alone some of the others in this thread; 'tis fertile ground, indeed.

Beast Strike would be another Dragon Magazine option, but might end up with some weird interactions with Eldritch Claws and the aptitude enchantment, so best not.

So it's looking like warlock 5/unnarmed swordsage 1/Enlightened Spirit X/more swordsage. Refluff the Enlightened Spirit to be the result of ascetic purity instead of celestial blood, take swordsage at levels where you gain the access to new levels of maneuvers due to the IL formula. I'd probably focus on Desert Wind, refluff as your fiery ki, but the same could be done with several of the other disciplines.

Break points in Enlightened Spirit seem to be at 3rd, 5th, 7th, depending on how many levels you want leftover for swordsage maneuvers. If you stick to a minimum of warlockishness, then you can probably get 9ths in there (or close...looks like you might just miss it). Sadly, it looks like warlock won't allow JPM entry (boo! hiss!)

I'm in the midst of counting, but it seems to me you could combo the unarmed strikes, the claws, and maybe Snap Kick and a maneuver thrown in there to reach your Seven Palms. The "Seven Heavens" I would probably just reference to chakra points on the body or something (root through crown...I think there's at least seven) and have those be the points struck by the combo (fluff-wise, ofc).

Anyway, that is my most recent thought. Some of these other builds have been quite interesting.

[Solace of Tides]

Monk 2, Cloistered Cleric the rest. Take Vow of Poverty and use decisive strike acf. Wis or Cha would be your big svotat dump, maybe Cha for the extra turn attempts so you can Persist 2-3 spells eventually. Choose 2 domains (knowledge will be 3rd) that have the best flavor for your character, or go undeath and planning domains if its no biggy to further max the persists you can squeeze out with VoP

Edit: Divine Magician might be a good idea, sac one domain to pick some cool flavor spells

[Red Fel]

Clawlock? Clawlock.


You know what they call Clawlocks in Monk?

They don't call them Clawlocks?

Nah, they don't have Dragon Magazine in Monk. They have the PHB system.

Then what do they call them?

Warlock with Cheese.

I love Clawlocks. Look over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328610-3-5-Build-This-Hand-of-Mine-Glows). I love the crap out of some Clawlocks.

But as that thread shows (albeit with tablesplosions), I've built Clawlocks. I've built the crap out of some Clawlocks. And I'm aware of the Beast Strike + Eldritch Claws + Aptitude trick - there's some nasty things you can do there.

I find, as a rule, that Enlightened Spirit, while flavorful, is really only optimal in a gestalt; its progression of EB is okay, but its progression of invocations is nonexistent, which hurts a class that is at best so-so at blasting, and really needs those invocations for utility.

I absolutely love the crap out of your proposed flavor. (Particularly the thing about a bunch of monks chanting around the PC's prone form. I so need to work that into a backstory.)


Monk 2, Cloistered Cleric the rest. Take Vow of Poverty and use decisive strike acf. Wis or Cha would be your big svotat dump, maybe Cha for the extra turn attempts so you can Persist 2-3 spells eventually. Choose 2 domains (knowledge will be 3rd) that have the best flavor for your character, or go undeath and planning domains if its no biggy to further max the persists you can squeeze out with VoP

Edit: Divine Magician might be a good idea, sac one domain to pick some cool flavor spells

Okay. We're going VoP on someone who isn't a Druid, Totemist or Incarnate. We're taking Cloistered Cleric, so BAB will be in the toilet until we can use Divine Power. And the build is just a Cleric who dipped Monk for unarmed tricks. His damage output will be unimpressive, and VoP will hurt that even more, so he'll be relegated to full caster status, which is precisely what I didn't want.

Cool flavor spells are nice, but they're really not what I'm asking for.

[Jeff the Green]

If we went with some kind of Elf, it would work, but the problem is that the only class that gives weapon proficiency (Swordsage) doesn't, because we took the Unarmed Adaptation.
Yes it does. The adaptation only strips armor proficiency, which we won't be using.


The problem is that he actually can't do much with his attacks. His unarmed strike damage is limited by the fact that he only has 4 levels of USS.
:smallredface: That is a problem, probably explained by the fact I've never actually played anything from ToB. Remediable with (a non-stupid reading of) Superior Unarmed Strike. And since you'll be walloping mightily, you'll be hitting the maximum damage of 8d6 if you can eke out an additional +2 CL (Illumian is useful here, letting one focus on Dexterity or Strength with only a decent Charisma).


Further, getting TSS is tricky - you would have to take Swordsage 4 at level 20 in order to guarantee you have the IL and the maneuver to learn.
Well, yes, but the most obvious progression would have you going that way anyway: Sha'ir 4/Swordsage 2/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 2/Swordsage +2 (4). Or possibly with Abjurant Champion and the third level of Swordsage interspersed with JPM if you prefer a higher-level Devoted Spirit maneuver instead of another Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, or Shadow Hand, or Setting Sun.

[PraxisVetli]

Uh... It looked like that thread just turned into a fairly martial Cleric after awhile, didn't it? I mean, it was basically split between Paladin/ Fist of Raziel and DMM Cleric. I... don't really know what else to say about that.
I wanted to contribute but didn't know anything useful.

[Red Fel]

Yes it does. The adaptation only strips armor proficiency, which we won't be using.

... Whoops! Yeah, yet another reason that the adaptation seriously should have been written better; you're right, it loses armor proficiency, but inexplicably keeps weapons. The Unarmed Swordsage uses weapons better than the Monk, just like he does everything else.


:smallredface: That is a problem, probably explained by the fact I've never actually played anything from ToB. Remediable with (a non-stupid reading of) Superior Unarmed Strike. And since you'll be walloping mightily, you'll be hitting the maximum damage of 8d6 if you can eke out an additional +2 CL (Illumian is useful here, letting one focus on Dexterity or Strength with only a decent Charisma).

Okay. Now, whether we do the smart reading of SUS (CL or Monk+4, whichever is higher) or the dumb reading (Monk +4, even if it's lower), and we substitute Swordsage for Monk, it's not terrible. Either SUS gives us 2d6 unarmed damage at level 20 (smart reading), or it treats us as Monk 4 (from Swordsage) +4 (SUS), or Monk 8, which gives us 1d10 (dumb reading), it's still pretty solid. Obviously, the smart reading is better. But fair point.


Well, yes, but the most obvious progression would have you going that way anyway: Sha'ir 4/Swordsage 2/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 2/Swordsage +2 (4). Or possibly with Abjurant Champion and the third level of Swordsage interspersed with JPM if you prefer a higher-level Devoted Spirit maneuver instead of another Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, or Shadow Hand, or Setting Sun.

Valid point. Although, it still has a bit of MAD, between its physical scores, its Wis score, and its non-Wis casting score. But it's definitely a gishy choice.


I wanted to contribute but didn't know anything useful.

Hey, that's cool! That's how we brainstorm ideas! You throw something out there, maybe it flies, maybe it sinks, but it gets the gears going, right?

[Phelix-Mu]

I think the character's master should be an ancient DW kobold worshiper of Io, who has mastered some flowery-languaged style of the Ninefold Dragon. Insert some numerology and accupuncture, and maybe a touch of one of those Wu Jen taboos. Hehe.

Yeah, wuxia-themes are awesome. Was it House of Flying Daggers? Yeah, that and Hero are probably two of my favorites (though rather mainstream...I just love the cinematic prettiness). Those doomed romance themes from Hero always jerk my heartstrings, and the fate of the Warrior who tries to kill the Emperor is just...*kisses fingertips*...perfection itself.

I really should watch more of this genre. At the risk of being off-topic, may I ask which you would recommend, Red Fel (or anyone else)?

[AvatarVecna]

When I read through this, the first thing I thought of was a particular PF PrC I've found useful on occasion. This build is extremely simple, and includes no race, no skills, no items, and no feats. That is because it achieves the basics of what you desired with class levels, leaving the rest for filling in as you see fit.

Monk 3/Paladin 2/Champion of the Enlightened 10/Monk +2/Paladin +3

A PF monk can pull off a flurry of blows. While flurrying, the count as if the monk was a full BAB class, and they gain the advantages of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree, with the exact benefits dependent on level: from 1st to 7th, Two-Weapon Fighting; from 8th to 14th, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; from 15th onward, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. The Champion of the Enlightened prestige class advances several monk abilities, including the flurry of blows. As such, a character with 15 levels of the two classes together (which the above build obtains by ECL 17) has an effective BAB of 17 while flurrying and benefits from the equivalent of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting while doing so. With 4 attacks from BAB and 3 from the effective feats, that makes 7 attacks.

Several class features combine rather well; take the full attack above, and slap on the Paladin's Smite Evil. Or, thanks to CotE, it could also be a Smite Chaos. Speaking of which, you can Detect Chaos at will, and combine unarmed strikes with smiting in various ways. You have 15 levels with all good saves, 5 levels with 2 good saves (the important ones), and the Paladin's Cha to saves ability. Also, you get a leveling bonus to Knowledge checks (to make up for Int being your only true dump stat), and another leveling bonus to offence and defense when surrounded. Of course, if you spent the round running up to your target, just use One Finger to target their Touch AC with your only attack this round.

There's two main downsides to this build, as it currently stands. Firstly, there's no real spellcasting, which keeps this from being really versatile. Secondly, it's MAD as hell; as mentioned, Intelligence is the only real dump stat for a build like this. Of course, with feats and items left to assign, as well as race and templates, I doubt this will be too much trouble to overcome.

Speaking of templates, I find using the Young template to balance out CR increases works wonders, and the Advanced template is perfect for such a MAD character as this (+4 to all attributes isn't too shabby).

EDIT: since I didn't specify, this build's "Seven Heavens, Seven Palms" is a flurry of blows with Paladin Smite Evil/Chaos attached; if they're surrounded, it's extra-effective.

[Red Fel]

I think the character's master should be an ancient DW kobold worshiper of Io, who has mastered some flowery-languaged style of the Ninefold Dragon. Insert some numerology and accupuncture, and maybe a touch of one of those Wu Jen taboos. Hehe.

... I am totally stealing that. I have this whole concept in my head of an LG monastery (Shaolin-style, not church-style) built around a hill, with a single plum tree on top of it inhabited by an Exalted fey spirit (which allows students to receive Nymph's Kiss and similar feats). This guy is officially going to be the Yoda-esque accupuncture master of that temple.


Yeah, wuxia-themes are awesome. Was it House of Flying Daggers? Yeah, that and Hero are probably two of my favorites (though rather mainstream...I just love the cinematic prettiness). Those doomed romance themes from Hero always jerk my heartstrings, and the fate of the Warrior who tries to kill the Emperor is just...*kisses fingertips*...perfection itself.

I really should watch more of this genre. At the risk of being off-topic, may I ask which you would recommend, Red Fel (or anyone else)?

The movie I saw most recently was 14 Blades (I think the original title was Jinyiwei) starring Donnie Yen and Zhao Wei. Not the best of the genre, but it features a uniquely weaponized box and literal wire-fu. (Literal, in the sense that the protagonist has wired grappling hooks, similar to Attack on Titan's 3D Maneuver Gear, that fire out of a box he wears on his back.) For a lighter feel, I recommend Wing Chun (Yong Chun), starring Michelle Yeoh, which has a really awesome female lead and some Shakespeare-esque comedy-of-errors elements. I also enjoyed Woochi, which was a bit less wuxia and a little more sword-and-sorcery displaced-in-time with Asian feel, Tai Chi Zero and Tai Chi Hero, which have some really impressive action sequences and some fun steampunk elements (if a bit of a campy storyline), and King of Beggars, which is more a comedy-with-action (Stephen Chow, people) than an action-and-drama-piece-with-humor.

Ahem. Moving on.


When I read through this, the first thing I thought of was a particular PF PrC I've found useful on occasion. This build is extremely simple, and includes no race, no skills, no items, and no feats. That is because it achieves the basics of what you desired with class levels, leaving the rest for filling in as you see fit.

Monk 3/Paladin 2/Champion of the Enlightened 10/Monk +2/Paladin +3

Ooh, that's that PrC Psyren pointed out earlier! Do go on!


A PF monk can pull off a flurry of blows. While flurrying, the count as if the monk was a full BAB class, and they gain the advantages of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree, with the exact benefits dependent on level: from 1st to 7th, Two-Weapon Fighting; from 8th to 14th, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; from 15th onward, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. The Champion of the Enlightened prestige class advances several monk abilities, including the flurry of blows. As such, a character with 15 levels of the two classes together (which the above build obtains by ECL 17) has an effective BAB of 17 while flurrying and benefits from the equivalent of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting while doing so. With 4 attacks from BAB and 3 from the effective feats, that makes 7 attacks.

Awesome! I see seven, seven palms, ah ah ah!


Several class features combine rather well; take the full attack above, and slap on the Paladin's Smite Evil. Or, thanks to CotE, it could also be a Smite Chaos. Speaking of which, you can Detect Chaos at will, and combine unarmed strikes with smiting in various ways. You have 15 levels with all good saves, 5 levels with 2 good saves (the important ones), and the Paladin's Cha to saves ability. Also, you get a leveling bonus to Knowledge checks (to make up for Int being your only true dump stat), and another leveling bonus to offence and defense when surrounded. Of course, if you spent the round running up to your target, just use One Finger to target their Touch AC with your only attack this round.

Ooh, that's a smart alternative to Pounce.


There's two main downsides to this build, as it currently stands. Firstly, there's no real spellcasting, which keeps this from being really versatile. Secondly, it's MAD as hell; as mentioned, Intelligence is the only real dump stat for a build like this. Of course, with feats and items left to assign, as well as race and templates, I doubt this will be too much trouble to overcome.

The lack of spellcasting may hurt versatility, but it still fits the flavor I need. The MAD is, admittedly, a pretty major downside. You need physical stats, because it's a melee, plus Wis for Wis-to-everything, plus Cha for saves and Smite and such. The question is whether you can find some traits or feats that can make it less ability dependent.

Now, one feat that drew my eye immediately is Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand). A Paladin 4 has the ability to Channel Positive Energy; that means he can take Channel Smite and then Guided Hand, allowing him to use Wis-to-hit. All you need is a patron deity whose favored weapon is unarmed strikes. It's a bit wobbly, but it helps make him less MAD.


Speaking of templates, I find using the Young template to balance out CR increases works wonders, and the Advanced template is perfect for such a MAD character as this (+4 to all attributes isn't too shabby).

Hmm. You know, I've not generally given much thought to PF templates. I find that people just tend to go Young + Advanced when that topic comes up, and it feels kind of cheesy to me. Let me see...

Right. As I recall, PF doesn't use LA, but uses CR to a very similar functionality. The Young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) template reduces CR by 1, gives +2 to all Dex-based rolls, -2 to all other rolls, and -2 HP/HD; it also reduces size by one category, natural AC by -2, reduces attack damage by one die step, reduces Str and Con by -4, and gives a +4 size bonus to Dex.

Now, the Advanced (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creature-cr-1) template increases CR by 1, gives +2 to all rolls including damage, +4 to AC and CMD, and +2 HP/HD. So already, we've offset all of the quick penalties of the Young template, with a net +2 to Dex-based rolls and +4 to AC and CMD. It also increases all ability scores by +4, and natural AC by +2. That offsets the penalties to Str and Con and natural AC; it leaves us with reduced damage die size (but a +2 to damage rolls) and a net +8 to Dex, and +4 to mental ability scores. It's really, really good for a caster or Dex-based build; it's decent for a Monk-style build. But the penalty to damage dice hurts.


EDIT: since I didn't specify, this build's "Seven Heavens, Seven Palms" is a flurry of blows with Paladin Smite Evil/Chaos attached; if they're surrounded, it's extra-effective.

Yup. Got that, and like it.

[AvatarVecna]

Now, one feat that drew my eye immediately is Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand). A Paladin 4 has the ability to Channel Positive Energy; that means he can take Channel Smite and then Guided Hand, allowing him to use Wis-to-hit. All you need is a patron deity whose favored weapon is unarmed strikes. It's a bit wobbly, but it helps make him less MAD.

Hmm. You know, I've not generally given much thought to PF templates. I find that people just tend to go Young + Advanced when that topic comes up, and it feels kind of cheesy to me. Let me see...

Right. As I recall, PF doesn't use LA, but uses CR to a very similar functionality. The Young (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) template reduces CR by 1, gives +2 to all Dex-based rolls, -2 to all other rolls, and -2 HP/HD; it also reduces size by one category, natural AC by -2, reduces attack damage by one die step, reduces Str and Con by -4, and gives a +4 size bonus to Dex.

Now, the Advanced (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creature-cr-1) template increases CR by 1, gives +2 to all rolls including damage, +4 to AC and CMD, and +2 HP/HD. So already, we've offset all of the quick penalties of the Young template, with a net +2 to Dex-based rolls and +4 to AC and CMD. It also increases all ability scores by +4, and natural AC by +2. That offsets the penalties to Str and Con and natural AC; it leaves us with reduced damage die size (but a +2 to damage rolls) and a net +8 to Dex, and +4 to mental ability scores. It's really, really good for a caster or Dex-based build; it's decent for a Monk-style build. But the penalty to damage dice hurts.

Firstly, you've got the templates wrong; the quick rules for the young template (the +2 to Dex rolls, 2 to other rolls, and smaller size) are the result of the more complicated rebuilding rules that you proceeded to list. Someone with the Young template has a Dex 4 points higher, resulting in Dex-based rolls having an effective +2. I imagine that DMs would frown on doubling the benefits and penalties of templates...of course, I'm not sure if this is for a real game or not, but I figured it would be worth mentioning.

As for finding a deity with favored weapon (unarmed strike), the one that comes to mind is Irori. Incidentally, the Champion of the Enlightened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) was originally called the Champion of Irori, as can be seen if one looks at the URL. That said, if you're not dead set on unarmed strike being your forte, there's a couple methods I've found for getting just about anything as a monk weapon for the purpose of flurrying with it: the first is Crusader's Flurry (which I think this build ends up qualifying for at some point); basically, your deity's favored weapon counts as a monk weapon for purposes of flurrying.

Alternatively, there's the monk archetype Sohei; it gives up the damage die progression of the unarmed strike, but it gains the fighter's weapon training with certain weapon groups, and the can use any weapon it has weapon training in as if it was a monk weapon for the purposes of flurrying. Interestingly, the RAW of the ability suggests that, if you gained weapon training with less limitations on the weapons it applies to, those too could be used in a flurry. That said, that would require a substantial dip in to Fighter, which this build doesn't really have room for. Still, it's something to think about.

[Jeff the Green]

Valid point. Although, it still has a bit of MAD, between its physical scores, its Wis score, and its non-Wis casting score. But it's definitely a gishy choice.

Doesn't really need Wisdom; Ascetic Mage doesn't distinguish between monk and swordsage AC bonus, and Sha'ir almost certainly counts as both prepared and spontaneous for purposes of qualifying for things and neither for using most things.

[Red Fel]

Firstly, you've got the templates wrong; the quick rules for the young template (the +2 to Dex rolls, 2 to other rolls, and smaller size) are the result of the more complicated rebuilding rules that you proceeded to list. Someone with the Young template has a Dex 4 points higher, resulting in Dex-based rolls having an effective +2. I imagine that DMs would frown on doubling the benefits and penalties of templates...of course, I'm not sure if this is for a real game or not, but I figured it would be worth mentioning.

Oh. Duh. Okay, that makes more sense.


As for finding a deity with favored weapon (unarmed strike), the one that comes to mind is Irori. Incidentally, the Champion of the Enlightened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) was originally called the Champion of Irori, as can be seen if one looks at the URL. That said, if you're not dead set on unarmed strike being your forte, there's a couple methods I've found for getting just about anything as a monk weapon for the purpose of flurrying with it: the first is Crusader's Flurry (which I think this build ends up qualifying for at some point); basically, your deity's favored weapon counts as a monk weapon for purposes of flurrying.

Interesting. (I was wondering why Psyren referred to it as the Champion of Irori. I guess Irori isn't OGL the way the class itself is.) And LN to boot. Classy. And I love his fluff.

Okay. Crusader's Flurry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/crusader-s-flurry). It requires Weapon Focus, whereas Guided Hand just requires proficiency. Plus side, it allows me to use favored weapon as if it were a Monk weapon; minus side, it's two more feats.


Alternatively, there's the monk archetype Sohei; it gives up the damage die progression of the unarmed strike, but it gains the fighter's weapon training with certain weapon groups, and the can use any weapon it has weapon training in as if it was a monk weapon for the purposes of flurrying. Interestingly, the RAW of the ability suggests that, if you gained weapon training with less limitations on the weapons it applies to, those too could be used in a flurry. That said, that would require a substantial dip in to Fighter, which this build doesn't really have room for. Still, it's something to think about.

Now, hold on a moment. Sohei (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sohei) may gain weapon training, and can use those weapons in a flurry, but he loses unarmed progression. And it is that unarmed progression which is increased by CotE.

I also note that, while using Crusader's Flurry or Sohei to gain flurry-able weapons is nice, it doesn't address the SADdening of the build, which was my goal. Guided Hand, although it takes awhile to come online, switches Str- or Dex-to-attack to Wis-to-attack, which is a step in the right direction. While CFlurry and Sohei add weapon functionality, they don't address that concern; and in Sohei's case, it actually hurts the unarmed progression, which I'd prefer to keep if possible.


Doesn't really need Wisdom; Ascetic Mage doesn't distinguish between monk and swordsage AC bonus, and Sha'ir almost certainly counts as both prepared and spontaneous for purposes of qualifying for things and neither for using most things.

Hmm. Fair point. The Wis modifier really only comes into play, on a Swordsage, for the AC bonus and for Insightful Strikes. The former is relatively minor, the latter would come online in the build too late to matter.

[AvatarVecna]

You're absolutely right about both CFlurry and Sohei. I only mention them because of another aspect of wuxia that I thought you might be looking for. On occasion, we find a character who wields a weapon that is clearly not a classical monk weapon. (Note: while I continue, my familiarity with the genre is rather limited, so the films I'm quoting as beign examples of the genre using alternate weapons may, in fact, have nothing to do with the genre, so please correct me if I'm wrong).

In "Enter the Dragon", Bruce Lee kicks ass with nunchaku, while the main baddy uses a claw hand to great effect. The other example comes from the Kung Fu Panda movies (which, from your description of wuxia films, seem to be either a satire of, or an homage to, the genre): in the second film, one of the great masters wields a two-handed hammer; given that he is already a bull-man, I'd probably stat him up as a Minotaur Monk using Crusader's Flurry or Sohei to have the Minotaur Warhammer as a monk weapon. Furthermore, the main villain in that movie uses either a fan or his own quills as weapons (I forget which), but they're definitely not monk weapons.

The bull-man is using Crusader's Flurry/Sohei in a cheesy way: by making a two-handed weapon a monk weapon, he can wield it as if he was dual-wielding it. If he's at least a Monk 15, he gets seven attacks with that big hammer. Anyway, I was pretty sure you wouldn't be using it for this build, but I thought that, should you make other builds from this genre, you'd find it useful advice.

My favorite weapon to use for this is the katana, just because it's awesome. Also, it leads to the super-cheese below.

So, I'm a fan of thrown weapons, and the thrown weapon combat style in general. The problem is, making a character super-effective at it is usually an exercise in futility.

Now, I haven't fully statted out the build yet, but it's something like...

Templates: PF Young; PF Advanced
Race: PF Half-Giant
Class Levels: PF Monk 3/PF Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Master Thrower 5/Iaijutsu Master 5/Fighter +5

Basically, max out Iaijutsu Focus, use Crusader's Flurry to make a katana a monk weapon, and combine Iaijutsu Focus/Master with the Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back) to maximum effect. Since you have powerful build, you can wield a Medium katana in one hand at no penalty, or a Large katana in two hands at a -2 penalty; I'm sure there's an item that minimizes that penalty.

[Red Fel]

You're absolutely right about both CFlurry and Sohei. I only mention them because of another aspect of wuxia that I thought you might be looking for. On occasion, we find a character who wields a weapon that is clearly not a classical monk weapon. (Note: while I continue, my familiarity with the genre is rather limited, so the films I'm quoting as beign examples of the genre using alternate weapons may, in fact, have nothing to do with the genre, so please correct me if I'm wrong).

In "Enter the Dragon", Bruce Lee kicks ass with nunchaku, while the main baddy uses a claw hand to great effect. The other example comes from the Kung Fu Panda movies (which, from your description of wuxia films, seem to be either a satire of, or an homage to, the genre): in the second film, one of the great masters wields a two-handed hammer; given that he is already a bull-man, I'd probably stat him up as a Minotaur Monk using Crusader's Flurry or Sohei to have the Minotaur Warhammer as a monk weapon. Furthermore, the main villain in that movie uses either a fan or his own quills as weapons (I forget which), but they're definitely not monk weapons.

The bull-man is using Crusader's Flurry/Sohei in a cheesy way: by making a two-handed weapon a monk weapon, he can wield it as if he was dual-wielding it. If he's at least a Monk 15, he gets seven attacks with that big hammer. Anyway, I was pretty sure you wouldn't be using it for this build, but I thought that, should you make other builds from this genre, you'd find it useful advice.

Well, a minor quibble, what separates wuxia from your typical "kung fu action" film is actually the literary basis. Unlike the typical Bruce Lee-style film, which is in essence a subgenre of general action films, wuxia is based upon a literary genre of the same name. The stories typically feature an Imperial Chinese backdrop, often with fantastical elements; great epics of mighty heroes and incredible feats; and tremendous personal tragedy and sacrifice. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is held out as one of the modern examples of the genre.

It's quite common for wuxia heroes to be adept at both unarmed and armed combat, with anything ranging from improvised weapons, to spears, to swords, to weaponized musical instruments. Being able to treat weapons as Monk weapons - and being able to flurry impossibly with them - would totally fit. (There was one scene in Kung Fu Hustle, for example, where a master of the staff and spear hurls open a canvas containing dozens of polearms, and proceeds to launch, parry with, and leap upon them all at once towards his enemy.)

That said, in this particular case, I feel that armed combat should be secondary to unarmed proficiency. I certainly like the possibility of a swordsman or something like that, with a passable capacity for unarmed strikes, and your proposal fits the bill for that. But this particular case calls for unarmed strikes first and foremost.


So, I'm a fan of thrown weapons, and the thrown weapon combat style in general. The problem is, making a character super-effective at it is usually an exercise in futility.

Now, I haven't fully statted out the build yet, but it's something like...

Templates: PF Young; PF Advanced
Race: PF Half-Giant
Class Levels: PF Monk 3/PF Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Master Thrower 5/Iaijutsu Master 5/Fighter +5

Basically, max out Iaijutsu Focus, use Crusader's Flurry to make a katana a monk weapon, and combine Iaijutsu Focus/Master with the Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back) to maximum effect. Since you have powerful build, you can wield a Medium katana in one hand at no penalty, or a Large katana in two hands at a -2 penalty; I'm sure there's an item that minimizes that penalty.

I... Have no idea how or whether that works. But it sounds a bit awesome. I just have no idea what it all does.

[AvatarVecna]

I... Have no idea how or whether that works. But it sounds a bit awesome. I just have no idea what it all does.

I'm probably gonna throw together a decent build once I optimize it and post it in a new thread so people can nitpick it to death. Seeing as it combines 3.0, 3.5, and PF, I doubt it will be that hard to tear down. Anyway, just thought I'd share the possibility.

[Novawurmson]

Well, if DSP's allowed, you've got a ton of options.

A personal favorite would be Deadly Fist Soulknife. There's several different build paths: DFS 3/Aegis 3/Metaforge 10, making sure to take Student of the Astral suit to make sure Aegis level=character level gives a ton of utility from customizations, while DFS+Gifted Blade is a nice little gish-in-a-can than can be (almost) fully Wis-SAD.

If you want more manifesting at the cost of a little BAB, the Meditant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/meditant)Psychic Warrior has a lot going for it.

I'll post some more later.

[Red Rubber Band]

While not necessarily adding anything of ultimate value to the discussion, I feel Xervous' quote in my sig adds some flavour to the Sohei references :smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

Sorry I let the thread languish for a few days. A few posters mentioned that they had some ideas they wanted to work on, so I kind of held back on commenting until I saw them, and then life got in the way...

Anyhow, I've kind of fallen in love with the Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori), and am currently putting together a build based on that. Here's where I am so far: Race: One of three: Aasimar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar), standard variety (+2 Cha, +2 Wis). Merfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-merfolk), with the Strongtail alternate racial trait. Human (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human/), for bonus feat. Classes (in no particular order): Cleric (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric) 1. Crusader (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/crusader) archetype. Gets me Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) as a bonus feat. This gives me a +1 to unarmed attacks. Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) 3. Possible archetypes include Flowing Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/flowing-monk), Monk of the Lotus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-lotus), Monk of the Sacred Mountain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-sacred-mountain), or none. This gets me all my Monk-y stuff (including Flurry, which I want to keep because reasons) up to Still Mind. Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) 2. I only need Paladin 1 for Smite Evil, but at Paladin 2 I add Divine Grace and Lay on Hands to my repertoire. Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori) 10. Yes, taking Monk 3, Cleric 1, and Paladin 2 delays me getting into this class by 1 level, but that's okay. And after that, I have four more levels to play with. Feats: I want Channel Smite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/channel-smite-combat) for two reasons. First, it gives me more sources of Smite, which is a good thing. Second, it qualifies me for... Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand). My goal is to make this build as non-MAD as possible. I can do that by narrowing my focus to Cha (for channel energy and smite) and Wis (for AC, CMD, etc.) Guided Hand helps with that. Osyluth Guile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/osyluth-guile-combat). A possibility. If I take Dodge as my Monk 1 bonus feat, I qualify (still need the skill ranks). The Crane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-style-combat-style) Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat) tree (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-riposte-combat), if I go a more defensive route, will basically make me a counterattacking monster, particularly if things make the mistake of critting me.
If I take the Paladin Hospitaler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/hospitaler) archetype and two more Paladin levels, and pick up a couple of items, I can basically turn my Channel pool into ki points, and ki points into smites. All day smiting, which means I'm using my Cha offensively. (And yes, I relied a lot on the handbook (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1bu5RkMqNkZbHpHRF9RX09ZWE0/edit?pli=1). It's pretty awesome.)

Thoughts? Anything I missed? Places I could flesh it out more?