Need help with Large warforged.

[Jackofalltrades]

Hello all, I'm new to this site, but i have heard and seen great things from this site. i usually check old forums for answers when i need a 3.5 D&D question cleared up. So enough of that, here's the situation . me and my brother are going to play a friends campaign soon maybe in two days or 2 weeks, who knows. I'm building a skill monkey Factotum eventually going to Chameleon. while my brother is hoping to play a Large warforged fighter or barbarian going on to be a warhulk. (inspired by hulk buster Iron man) i decided to help him because I'm done with my character. but we can't find any thing clear about turning a warforged large. I have checked many forums and all i could find was that it's either LA+1 or LA+2. so here is the question, which sounds more correct because our Dm doesn't like us to play characters that we can't tell what LA they have. so all i want is your professional opinions about what LA it should be plus any references to books will help. No build ideas Please:smallsmile:. basically were going for the "I'm the brains and your the brawn" type duo

PS. we are allowed about all 3.5 books except maybe tome of battle/magic. savage species might be okay if it solves the question. and right now what level we are started at is unclear.

[snailgosh]

You could apply a template to the Warforged, like Half-Minotaur or Half-Ogre from Dragon Magazine, which are both +1LA.

Or you could choose the Warforged Charger as a base creature. It does however have 4RHD and a +4LA.

[Jackofalltrades]

well, the DM don't allow Dragon Magazine due to some of the stuff in it being a Little OP (unseelie fey template for example) My brother wants to keep it within core rules, plus he was just hoping to be a pure warforged, just Bigger and badder. someone mention that there are rules in either monster manual or savage species that deal with making a race bigger.

edit. (when i mean "core" i mean all 3.5 rule/supplement/eberron books.)
edit. (also, he's wants it permanently large from the start for his story background)

[Red Fel]

Well, first off, Savage Species is 3.0, not 3.5. So if you're playing "core" 3.5, you're not getting Savage Species.

Second, even if you're using Savage Species, your options are limited. Why? Because Warforged are Constructs with the Living Construct subtype. And many enlarging templates only apply to Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, or Giants. Frankly, even the classics from Dragon Magazine (Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur) are off-limits to you.

Short version? You don't have a lot of options. Even spells like Enlarge Person won't work. Maybe psionics, Expansion?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There actually is a way to get large as a warforged without any LA or RHD. It does, however require 3 levels in the Stoneblessed PrC from Races of Stone. After said 3 levels, you can take any ACFs for your choice of race. That means you can get the goliath's mountain rage for barbarian, which explicitly makes you large sized for the duration of your rage.

Assuming a friendly DM, this will get you into Warhulk, but you'd lose the benefits while not raging.

[Red Fel]

There actually is a way to get large as a warforged without any LA or RHD. It does, however require 3 levels in the Stoneblessed PrC from Races of Stone.

Can't take Stoneblessed. It requires Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, or Giant type. Warforged is a Construct.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Can't take Stoneblessed. It requires Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, or Giant type. Warforged is a Construct.

D'oh! This is what I get for being AFB.

[Jackofalltrades]

like i said Savage Species is allowed if it solves the problem. but i see your point. Savage Species is mostly for monstrous characters, not living constructs. how about monster manual then? I heard somewhere that the monster Manuel has a section on making monsters found in the book large and considering warforged also showed up in MM3 it won't pushing the limit to much. if so, doe anyone know what LA it will have. LA up to +2 maybe +3 is okay.

edit. (i will have to talk with the DM, i know it might not be true core to make a warforged large with the rules in monster Manuel, but if he sees a solid LA for it he might be willing to allow it.)

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The size increasing rules are primarily for creatures that grow with age/racial hit dice, IIRC. As such, you'd have to jerry rig them to apply here.

There is a warforged component part somewhere that makes them grow a size, but I think it is an artifact for some stupid reason.

[Jackofalltrades]

The size increasing rules are primarily for creatures that grow with age/racial hit dice, IIRC. As such, you'd have to jerry rig them to apply here.

There is a warforged component part somewhere that makes them grow a size, but I think it is an artifact for some stupid reason.

Really? :smalleek: i didn't realize that, i thought it applied to all creatures in the book including constructs. if he has to Jerry rig it what would be the LA? i guess that will be close enough to being core as possible. he could try to okay it it with the DM.

[Red Fel]

Really? :smalleek: i didn't realize that, i thought it applied to all creatures in the book including constructs. if he has to Jerry rig it what would be the LA? i guess that will be close enough to being core as possible. he could try to okay it it with the DM.

The short version? By RAW, I don't know of any (1) template that applies to Constructs that increases size, or (2) way to increase a given creature's size aside from that. There are rules on monster advancement based on Hit Dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), but those explicitly apply when a creature's monster entry lists multiple sizes.

That said? There is hope. First, the good news: Monster Manual III contains the Warforged Charger, a larger, less intelligent Warforged with the Large size. It's still a Construct (Living Construct), with all that entails. Further, the entry in MM3 explicitly discusses Warforged Chargers as characters. They gain massive Str and Con bonuses, and substantial Int, Wis, and Cha penalties, as well as Adamantine Plating, fists that overcome construct DR and hardness, and 75% chance to negate crits and sneak attacks. Now the bad news: It has 4 RHD. That's four racial hit dice which, unlike a level adjustment, can't be bought off. That's four levels you can't dedicate to a class.

So, yes. There is a Large Warforged. But it hurts. Oh, how it hurts.

[Jackofalltrades]

looks like there isn't any way to become a large warforge unless you become a warforged charger. +4 is pretty steep, good for higher levels but doesn't work for what we're doing, the campaign will start at max level 3. if he could ask the DM to allow the large increase rules from MM, what LA would it be? I guess it has come down to either tampering with the rules a little or not playing it at all.

[Ferronach]

Talk to your DM about this. Most Dm's are willing to accomodate their players to an extent.
I would suggest asking if you could explain that the warforged was created larger than others as an experimet etc (insert fluff here).
Grant the warforged the Powerful Build aspect of the Goliath and add in the penalties for being large sized.
You now have a big-medium warforged that for all intents and purposes is considered large.
By adding the penalties for large size I think you can justify a LA of +0, if you do not want penalties, ask your DM if you can use Powerful build as a feat or have it and have a LA of +1.

Edit: You can find Goliath in races of stone (page 50 something iirc)

[Venger]

since his DM wants to cooperate with him, he could always say his character did the wight thing while influenced by humanoid essence to let him be playable with no RHD/LA. those stat penalties, large size, and low speed are their own punishment.

[Jackofalltrades]

well that's what my brother iwas going for, his warfoged was specialty built large as a war machine,(Brawn) after the war he was used as a loading bot for cargo going in and out of azure city university. my character professor Danial Swiftheart (brains) of the art aspect of the university leaves to explore the world painting the wonders of the world, but since he's not quite the fighter he took the large warforged with him as a bodyguard and companion for the trip. powerful build sounds good, he'll keep that as a 2nd option, but again if he's allow to use the size increase rules what LA would he be?

[Troacctid]

Hire a Wizard to cast polymorph (into a humanoid), enlarge person, and permanency on you. This should cost a total of 3400 gp and leaves you permanently large-sized after the polymorph runs out.

The downside is that a single dispel magic undoes it all, so I strongly suggest a ring of counterspells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#counterspells) keyed to dispel magic.

[snailgosh]

Well since starts to go into homebrew territory, it would be best to check with your DM how high he'd rate it on the LA scale.
My GM rated a template that basically gave Ex: Enlarge Person at +1LA, which would be strictly inferior to monster advancement rules.

[Venger]

Hire a Wizard to cast polymorph (into a humanoid), enlarge person, and permanency on you. This should cost a total of 3400 gp and leaves you permanently large-sized after the polymorph runs out.

The downside is that a single dispel magic undoes it all, so I strongly suggest a ring of counterspells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#counterspells) keyed to dispel magic.

or just have the caster do it via dweomerkeeper and the strength domain to do it as a supernatural ability, so it's not vulnerable to dispelling.

[Troacctid]

or just have the caster do it via dweomerkeeper and the strength domain to do it as a supernatural ability, so it's not vulnerable to dispelling.

Permanency only works on spells, not spell-like or supernatural abilities.

[snailgosh]

or just have the caster do it via dweomerkeeper and the strength domain to do it as a supernatural ability, so it's not vulnerable to dispelling.

When I read something like this, I always think it's better to homebrew something with the GM, than to put this over the top ridiculousness into one's background ^^

[Venger]

When I read something like this, I always think it's better to homebrew something with the GM, than to put this over the top ridiculousness into one's background ^^

you say potato.

[Jackofalltrades]

okay, so he has two options. 1) ask DM to allow him to become large at a LA determine by the DM. 2) have a permanency enlarge person spell cast on him. but he also wants the benefits of being large also. though he did some research and going to ask the DM if can do option #1 at LA+2 by comparing it the minotaur race etc. but thank you for your help. now him and i know what he can and can't do. :smallsmile:

[Darrin]

okay, so he has two options. 1) ask DM to allow him to become large at a LA determine by the DM. 2) have a permanency enlarge person spell cast on him. but he also wants the benefits of being large also. though he did some research and going to ask the DM if can do option #1 at LA+2 by comparing it the minotaur race etc. but thank you for your help. now him and i know what he can and can't do. :smallsmile:

Another option: buy a Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG) or Fleshshifter Armor (13160 GP, BoVD). This gives you all-day polymorph or alter self, so turn into a Warforged Charger and just stay in that form.

[Jackofalltrades]

Another option: buy a Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG) or Fleshshifter Armor (13160 GP, BoVD). This gives you all-day polymorph or alter self, so turn into a Warforged Charger and just stay in that form.
that sounds a little better, he could have a phylactery of change and turn to a charger. problem is he would be only starting with at max a Lv 3 budget. (2,700 Gp) DM will probably let him play a LA +2 before letting him have 11,200Gp at level 1-3, but thank you for the info, i didn't know such items existed, it might help with my own future builds.

[ComaVision]

that sounds a little better, he could have a phylactery of change and turn to a charger. problem is he would be only starting with at max a Lv 3 budget. (2,700 Gp) DM will probably let him play a LA +2 before letting him have 11,200Gp at level 1-3, but thank you for the info, i didn't know such items existed, it might help with my own future builds.

Maybe the DM would be more allowing if you insisted that would be its only use. There are a lot more powerful options the item could do, so it seems a reasonable trade off for all his starting wealth.

[Jackofalltrades]

even if the DM allows him to bend the rules and allow him to buy it at level 1-3 it's still changing in to a LA +4 creature compared to bending the rules to have a LA +2 creature. at this point anything that costs more then a level 1-3 budget and/or being a LA +3 or higher is off the table.

[Ferronach]

Don't forget that Warforged cannot under any circumstances wear armour.

[Jackofalltrades]

Don't forget that Warforged cannot under any circumstances wear armour.

well that's half true. if he takes unarmored body he can wear armor. but normally yes. also i made a mistake, anything LA +4 or higher is off the table, anything LA +3 or lower is okay.

[Jackofalltrades]

Wow, I'm not leaving you much to work with. sorry about that.

[KingSmitty]

could always be a medium warforged and mimic the half-giant and see how to add "powerful-build" for a +1 or 2 LA. warforged juggernaut + Warhulk + a few levels of warblade would be pretty brutal

[(Un)Inspired]

could always be a medium warforged and mimic the half-giant and see how to add "powerful-build" for a +1 or 2 LA. warforged juggernaut + Warhulk + a few levels of warblade would be pretty brutal

He's not allowed to use ToB.

Honestly I would drop warforged and use a Goliath or half giant and try to get your hands on that Eberron power armor ASAP. That's more like iron man anyway.

[torrasque666]

See if he'll allow the Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176276-3-5-Magitech-Templar-Iron-Man)?

Alternatively, instead of starting out large, work a way up to it. Maybe hash out a method for him to advance in size with his HD like a monster could. Maybe like 1-7 Medium, 8-14 Large, >=15 Huge? If he's going melee he's still not going to be that powerful. Fluff it as him gradually advancing his armor a bit each level.

Also, Eberron Power Armor?

[Ferronach]

I still say that the easiest way would be to get your DM to allow the taking of powerful build as a feat or granting it due to fluff/backstory. I honestly do not see Powerful build on its own justifying any LA because Goliaths get a whole bunch of other stuff as well and are only LA +1 so it will not be game breaking in any way. If the DM does not want to allow powerful build see if he/she would be willing to allow your brother to bypass the "large" requirement on account of being a "robot" that is almost large...

[lytokk]

I asked this same question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308233-Increasing-Creature-Size-and-Level-Adjustments) when I first got to the boards, and really never came up with an answer based on any written rule. Best bet, what we figured out was that for a +1 LA, get +4 str, -2 dex, and large sized, with all the reach, attack and ac modifiers associated with it. Personally, I felt that +6 str, -2 dex and +2 con with all the large sized qualities should be appropriate for a +1 LA.

[Jackofalltrades]

I asked this same question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?308233-Increasing-Creature-Size-and-Level-Adjustments) when I first got to the boards, and really never came up with an answer based on any written rule. Best bet, what we figured out was that for a +1 LA, get +4 str, -2 dex, and large sized, with all the reach, attack and ac modifiers associated with it. Personally, I felt that +6 str, -2 dex and +2 con with all the large sized qualities should be appropriate for a +1 LA.

Yeah, after spending a couple hours last night researching. what i found was LA +2 if you take large size while taking all the modifiers a large creature has like the +8 to strength . or LA +1 if you take large size with lowed modifiers like a +4 to strength. he's going to ask the DM for the LA +2 tonight. if not maybe he can pass the LA+. basically my brother really wants the all the full benefits and penalties of a real large creature. and it has to be large size, not mimicking large size like powerful build.

[Baroknik]

Well, if you can be wight-drained and don't mind being a Giant Type, you can get the LA to +2 by taking the Incarnate Construct template.

Interesting fact, warforged Juggernaut does not require Type: Construct, only Race: Warforged, IIRC.

[Jackofalltrades]

Okay, my bother asked the Dm and he's allowed a large warforged under the condition of it being LA+2. Thank you all for your help and ideas. :smallsmile:

[ShurikVch]

Thrall of Kostchtchie make you Large at 10th level

[snailgosh]

could always be a medium warforged and mimic the half-giant and see how to add "powerful-build" for a +1 or 2 LA. warforged juggernaut + Warhulk + a few levels of warblade would be pretty brutal

Don't forget Warpriest, War Chanter and War Mind.
And pick War Devotion.

[ShurikVch]

Don't forget Warpriest, War Chanter and War Mind.
And pick War Devotion. Please, don't forget the Warchief, Warlock, Warmage, Warmaster, Warshaper, War Weaver, and War Wizard of Cormyr :smallbiggrin:

[lytokk]

Please, don't forget the Warchief, Warlock, Warmage, Warmaster, Warshaper, War Weaver, and War Wizard of Cormyr :smallbiggrin:

or the warblade

[torrasque666]

or the warblade
Already mentioned.

AND HEY! YOU STOLE MY BIT!