Taint in pathfinder?

[Xuldarinar]

Since I assume there is no such system designed for pathfinder, if someone wanted to introduce it which 3.5 taint system do you think would be better to use, UA's taint system or HoH's taint system? How do their prestige classes stack up under pathfinder? Would it even be remotely advisable to use taint at all?

[Psyren]

The big difference between them is that HoH separated physical taint effects (corruption) and mental taint effects (depravity) onto two separate tracks.

Anyway, as far as porting it to PF - as with anything else you port to PF you would likely start with the latest 3.5 version, which for Taint would be HoH, and specifically supersedes both OA and UA.

As for being advisable, Taint is one of those mechanics that doesn't mix well with players - either it is brokenly powerful with little downside, or it is unusable without destroying their character in short order. There is very little middle ground; it's much like epic spellcasting in that respect.

[atemu1234]

The big difference between them is that HoH separated physical taint effects (corruption) and mental taint effects (depravity) onto two separate tracks.

Anyway, as far as porting it to PF - as with anything else you port to PF you would likely start with the latest 3.5 version, which for Taint would be HoH, and specifically supersedes both OA and UA.

As for being advisable, Taint is one of those mechanics that doesn't mix well with players - either it is brokenly powerful with little downside, or it is unusable without destroying their character in short order. There is very little middle ground; it's much like epic spellcasting in that respect.

Except Epic Spellcasting doesn't have an unusable aspect; the DM should probably allow you to get enough from it so that it's usable, but not enough to break it.

I'll save that for another thread.

Heroes of Horror has the main system, ban the one PrC that bases your spellcasting off your taint score, otherwise it'll suck. Also, don't allow the player to gain the evil subtype. EV-ER.

[Psyren]

Except Epic Spellcasting doesn't have an unusable aspect; the DM should probably allow you to get enough from it so that it's usable, but not enough to break it.

"We can houserule it to work" isn't exactly what I meant. Using the mitigation factors provided in the book, it tends strongly toward either borked or unusable. Similarly, as written Taint tends to either supercharge a PC or add an N to the front.

[Xuldarinar]

"We can houserule it to work" isn't exactly what I meant. Using the mitigation factors provided in the book, it tends strongly toward either borked or unusable. Similarly, as written Taint tends to either supercharge a PC or add an N to the front.

Well, one mitigation factor I think could be valuable is, when a class would otherwise convert someone to casting via corruption/depravity, that it instead add a +2/+4/+6 bonus to their casting ability strictly for that purpose.

A wizard tainted scholar, for instance, would have bonus spells based upon their Intelligence score +2 (mild depravity)/+4 (moderate depravity)/+6 (severe depravity), treat their Intelligence score as being the same amount higher for determining the maximum level of spell they can cast, and their spell DCs would be based on their Intelligence score +2 (mild corruption)/+4 (moderate corruption)/+6 (severe corruption). This would provide benefit for higher levels of corruption and depravity, but not make it absolutely game breaking.


Then again, ever think that the game breaking nature of HoH taint might be intentional?

[Blackhawk748]

Then again, ever think that the game breaking nature of HoH taint might be intentional?

If they meant it explicitly for NPCs then yes, but we PCs have this tendency to walk a knife edge fairly easily so we can just simply abuse the crap out of it. However HoH did let you get some stuff for being tainted, one of them being Lich Eyes, which while not amazing is at least not complete garbage. I would still recommend some houseruling on it.

[Psyren]

Then again, ever think that the game breaking nature of HoH taint might be intentional?

For powerful villains or tragic NPCs, absolutely. PCs however have the unfortunate quality of being built from the ground up to be able to maximize the benefit of a given subsystem while minimizing its drawbacks, leading to the scenario Blackhawk described.

[NichG]

Well, then I think it makes sense to look at Pathfinder as an opportunity to rebuild the system from scratch to avoid the problem. I might do something like this, for example:


'Taint' is metaphysical substance that adheres to the soul of a creature and builds up over the course of their life. This can happen due to direct exposure to Tainted energies and areas, or as the byproduct of certain kinds of extreme actions. Taint gradually corrupts and twists the soul, and can also have outward effects upon the body which that soul inhabits. Generally a person with Taint is not infectious to others through simple contact, but beings whose body is their soul (ghosts, outsiders, etc) can inflict Taint even by a simple touch.

Taint is difficult to remove by force without damaging the soul in the process (as such, all effects which do so normally only work on willing targets - the major exceptions are the direct intervention of a deity, the powers of artifacts, and the effects of certain planar locations), but a person can meditate and practice an ascetic lifestyle in highly purified areas (e.g. areas with no ambient Taint) in order to gradually expunge it from themselves naturally. Individuals undergoing this process may decrease their Taint score by 0.1 points per week (however, individuals with sufficiently high Taint corrupt the local environment over time, and so they must continually move to avoid their own effects making their environment incapable of helping them lose Taint).

When a point of Taint is removed by force, it inflicts a certain amount of XP loss. This cannot cause the target to lose a level, but they will not gain a new level until they have re-earned the lost XP. The amount of XP lost is equal to 50xp multiplied by the square of the amount of Taint the person has. If multiple points of Taint are removed at once, this is calculated in sequence. So e.g. if someone has 8 points of Taint and has 2 removed by magic, they lose 3200xp + 2450xp.

A creature's Taint score is an indication of how much of this corrupting influence has accumulated upon them. In terms of the metaphysical substance, this is a logarithmic scale - someone with 10 points of Taint has four times as much metaphysical corruption as much as someone with 9 points of Taint. This also means that in practice, once someone is sufficiently tainted, things that would previously have increased their Taint score will no longer do so.

Examples:

- Casting an [Evil] spell: +0.1 Taint, up to 2
- Bringing a demon/devil physically to the material plane (e.g. Gate, not Summon Monster): +0.3 Taint, up to 3
- Prolonged exposure to Tainted areas: +0.1 Taint/day, up to the area's Taint score
- Performing sacrificial killings of sentient beings: +0.5 Taint, up to 3
- Raising a creature as sentient Undead: +0.5 Taint, up to 5
- Being raised as Undead: +1 Taint, up to 7
- Destroying or consuming a creature's soul: +1 Taint, up to 7
- Being struck directly by a soul-bodied creature with Taint: +0.1 Taint, up to their Taint-1

In general, non-sentient undead have about 1-2 points of Taint, sentient undead have about 3-5 points of Taint (with higher HD undead having more taint), and [Evil] outsiders have from 5-8 points of Taint. Only uniquely powerful/evil creatures are found with 9 or 10 points of Taint.

Taint Resistance: Characters with Taint Resistance treat their Taint level as higher for the purpose of determining whether the gain Taint from an action. E.g. a character with Taint Resistance 2 will not gain any Taint from casting an [Evil] spell, even if they are currently at 0 Taint.

Effects of Taint on areas:

Any area that has a Taint score tends to suffer from certain issues. As an area's Taint score increases, life generally has a harder time - fertility rates drop, plants grow more poorly, disease becomes more rampant, etc. At 2 points of Taint, harmful creatures both natural and supernatural are attracted to the area and may prey on its inhabitants; the entire area behaves as if under the effects of an Unhallow. At 3 points of Taint, an area becomes corrupted enough that improperly buried dead spontaneously animate as undead. An area with 5 points of Taint is effectively as corrupt as many areas in the lower planes, and supernaturally evil events occur frequently - things in the environment become actively hostile to life, a person's ill intentions automatically transform themselves into a magical curse without the intervention of a spellcaster, etc. An area with more than 5 points of Taint corresponds to an incredibly intense locus of evil - possibly twisting those who spend overly long there into demons/devils or worse.

Effects of Taint on characters:

There are certain effects which scale numerically with Taint score.

- The numerical consequences of Taint concern a character's susceptibility to the influences of evil, as well as how effective the beneficial influences of positive energy are to them. Characters with Taint are more strongly affected by spells and effects with the [Evil] descriptor, as well as spells and effects which channel negative energy. Such spells affect the character as if they were 1 caster level higher per two points of Taint. Similarly, spells with the [Good] descriptor and spells which channel positive energy behave as if 1 caster level lower per two points of Taint. If this lowers the caster level to or below zero, the creature is involuntarily immune to the effects of the spell (even if beneficial).
- A creature with Taint cannot cast [Good] spells of spell level above 9-(Taint score), so e.g. a creature with 4 Taint could not cast a 6th level [Good] spell.
- Creatures with Taint are also more susceptible to manipulation by creatures of supernatural evil. They suffer a penalty on opposed skill checks against such creatures equal to their Taint score. Creatures with the [Evil] descriptor are themselves immune to this particular consequence of Taint.

In addition, at specific levels of Taint there are additional effects which begin to occur.

1 point: The character detects as Evil with regards to spells which detect alignment (in addition to their actual alignment).

2 points: Oddity*. The character develops a minor physical or mental indication of their corruption. This could be something like odd swellings of joints or limbs, oozing sores, a tendency towards brief (e.g. non-debilitating) visual hallucinations of a horrific form, etc. This should not have direct mechanical effects at this stage.

3 points: Natural animals (e.g. undomesticated) behave oddly around the character. This acts as an aura of radius 5ft per point of Taint, DC 10+Taint+HD/2, inflicting the Shaken condition. Vermin and the like are drawn to the character rather than repelled.

4 points: Distortion*. There is some significant physical or mental indicator of the Taint. Mechanically the character gains a +1 to one stat and a -2 to another stat as a result of this effect. For example, their body could become grotesquely swollen, reducing their Dexterity but increasing their Constitution. They might gain a cold and alien intelligence (+1 Int), but suffer a loss in their ability to have empathy for others (Wis). The signs of Taint should be fairly obvious to anyone interacting with the character for an extended time, unless the character takes intentional steps to conceal it.it.

5 points: The character begins to have a corrupting influence on the area around them. This process occurs over a matter of weeks, and is limited to places within 20ft per point of Taint to where the character commonly spends their time. Plants grow more slowly, die more readily, and generally appear unhealthy. Milk sours in the pail. Over time, this inflicts ambient Taint on the environment, adding 0.1 point of Taint to the environment per point the character possesses for each month they spend in one place, with a maximum of the character's Taint score-2.

6 points: Wracked Soul. The character's soul has been so twisted and corrupted as to be nearly unrecognizable from what it once was. The character may still have good intentions, but those intentions and feelings are distorted away from reality by the corruption. The character may no longer realize the consequences or morality of their actions. The character retains their alignment as written on their sheet and can advance in classes requiring that alignment or take abilities corresponding to that alignment, but with respect to all external effects they behave as if Evil on the moral axis. When manifesting abilities dependent on having a non-evil alignment, those abilities manifest in ways that appear corrupted towards evil.

7 points: Warped form*. The character gains an extreme physical or mental alteration as a result of their Taint (list needed!). The DM should propose three alterations from the list, and allow the player to choose one (to prevent an alteration that would invalidate the player's character). Examples: One of the character's hands becomes a distended, bleeding wreck through which protrude blade-like extensions of their bones. The character gains a natural attack that inflicts Taint, but has difficulty using objects with that hand, suffering a -3 to rolls involving such; the character's eyes become swirling holes into the void - while they suffer a -5 penalty to Perception checks, they can see and interact with Incorporeal beings as if they were fully solid; the character constantly hears maddening whispers urging them to do horrible things inflicting a -2 penalty on Will saves, but allowing them to use Commune 2/day to try to glean some useful information from the whispers; the character's flesh begins to fall off in chunks but seems to be endlessly renewed - character loses 2 points of Con but gains Fast Healing equal to HD/5.

8 points: Aura of Misfortune. Those around the character have a tendency to suffer as the universe itself is distorted slightly into a more hateful place in the vicinity. People tend to become more cruel and follow their baser instincts within the character's aura (non-mechanical effect). Harsh words issued in anger may spontaneously take the form of real curses (there is a 5% chance each day that someone or something the character interacts with spontaneously gains a curse as per a cursed magical item or Bestow Curse spell). Additionally, creatures within the aura (including the character) who do not have the [Evil] descriptor suffer a -1 Profane penalty to all saving throws. The radius of the aura is the same as the aura of fear against animals.

9 points: Mouthful of Ashes. The character is rendered incapable of perceiving the good in anything. All emotions they experience, all senses they have always manifest only in terms of selfish or negative impressions. This extends even to their ability to comprehend the reasons for the actions of others - a person who sacrifices themselves to save another doesn't appear noble, they appear deluded; a person who exhibits affection for another never appears to be in love, but always in lust; etc. Mechanically, the character automatically fails Sense Motive checks to detect things of this sort. Additionally, creatures with the [Good] descriptor appear to the character as insubstantial, only tenuously existing within reality. The character suffers a 50% miss chance against such creatures, but so too do they suffer a 50% miss chance against the character.

10 points: Well of Sin. The character's actions themselves are distorted in such a way so as to prevent them from having Good results. The character cannot use any effect or ability with the [Good] descriptor. All other effects and abilities they produce automatically gain the [Evil] descriptor if they did not already have it. A character with 10 points of Taint cannot gain any more Taint.

In addition, there is a semi-non-mechanical effect of this: anyone receiving a benefit of any kind from the character is cursed to suffer a tragedy worse than the benefit in the near future, unless that benefit was drawn from or accompanied by the suffering of another. If this fate is thwarted, the person instead simply gains a small amount of Taint themselves (from 0.1 to 1 point depending on the scale of the benefit, up to a maximum of 7). Generally this should not be tracked explicitly, but simply taken as the fact that as the physical embodiment of Evil in the world the character makes the world a worse place by virtue of existing.

*[Evil] outsiders and the like already have this implicitly in terms of the statistics of their race, and should not gain an additional effect of this sort.

[Blackhawk748]

*wall of cool stuff*

This is pretty awesome, personally i would just convert it over to standard numbers, ie 1 instead of 0.1, just to make it easier but that actually seems fairly solid.

[Xuldarinar]

-snip-

That actually looks pretty good. It is worth considering.


A quick question regarding a particular class, though designed with an older taint system.

How well do you think the Maho-bujin (using HoH taint rules) would work under pathfinder?

Also, though i've asked this before, given its prerequisites do you think someone could have their 1st class level be Maho-bujin, assuming circumstances were such that they acquired enough taint and were in the right place early enough?

[Blackhawk748]

Id make sure that Death Knell doesnt stack with itself, and maybe tweak Unbounded Corruption (or not this is a melee class with a lot of dead levels) But otherwise it shouldnt be to bad. Also no, i think you need to have another class to take a PrC otherwise your not actually a character, but it could totally be your second level.

[BWR]

Similarly, as written Taint tends to either supercharge a PC or add an N to the front.
Change 'or' to 'and', and the Taint is working as it should. It's not meant make powerful playable characters, it's meant to corrupt and give powers and mental and physical distortions. Small amounts can be handled, but larger amounts make life difficult. You get powers, but at the cost of your humanity and soul.

@ OP: the third option is to go with AEG's Taint. Found in the "Rokugan" sourcebook. It's fairly similar to OA but a bit better, and a better adaptation of the R&K Taint than HoH. More Taint-related stuff can be found in "Secrets of the Shadowlands" and "Bloodspeakers", and to a lesser extent in "Secrets of the Crab" and "Secrets of the Scorpion". These are all 3.0 based but should be easily adaptable.
If you really want to get the true flavor of the Taint, read "The book of the Shadowlands: the writings of Kuni Mokuna" and especially "Bearers of jade: the second book of the Shadowlands".