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Sahegian
2007-03-20, 12:46 PM
Can they be used together?

Sahegian
2007-03-20, 12:48 PM
Or are arrows even sized? I don't have my books handy at the moment and the SRD is not clear on it.

AmberVael
2007-03-20, 12:50 PM
I think this is one of those things that is not stated, but assumed. I think it is pretty much physically impossible to use an arrow of that size with a bow of of normal size.
Arrows are indeed sized, and the SRD does state it in their chart.

Fixer
2007-03-20, 12:51 PM
Having done a great deal of archery I would have to say no. You cannot use them as quarrels either.

Arrows have to have a certain length of shaft in order to be drawn enough to get their full effectiveness. A shorter arrow cannot be drawn back as far resulting in a shorter range and less power than a shorter bow using the same arrow.

By the same token arrows generally have three feathers at roughly 120 degree angles while quarrels have two at 180 degree angles, making arrows of any kind relatively useless in crossbows (before you ask).

Sahegian
2007-03-20, 01:01 PM
Thanks for the info guys.

Fixer:
While that is very true and I understand what you are saying having a little archery experience myself. There are many different sizes of arrows for many different sizes of bows in real life. Many of the shorter arrows would be too short to fully draw a larger bow, but I'd hardly say those arrows fall into the "small" size category. D&D archery doesn't mimic real life archery enough to make this an issue as Shortbows and Longbows fire the same arrows.

Vael, do you have a link to the SRD passage about this? I couldn't find it looking through the charts and weapon size info.

AmberVael
2007-03-20, 01:08 PM
Actually, I mispoke. It does, however, refer to it in this way:

An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll)) and deals damage as a dagger of its size.
So in other words, it doesn't actually ever come out and say it, but we do know that it can be different sizes.

TheElfLord
2007-03-20, 01:09 PM
Arrows are often sized on the user. For example, if I wanted to draw the nock of an arrow back to my mouth it would have to be over 40 inches long (i'm rather tall). Most normal people use arrows with lenghs in the 30s. A small character might only have a draw length of 18 or less inches. This would translate into much less power and distance. I think it would be useable, but at a very small range incriment, and much less damage.

Fixer
2007-03-20, 01:11 PM
Given that each size category is about half (or double) the previous, that would be taking four foot arrows and making them two feet long instead. In a bow for four foot arrows, that'd be a significant difference.

Now, if you are talking about arrows for a shortbow being used in a longbow or vice versa, that should be allowed. Those arrows shouldn't be too different. Most of the damage from bows comes from the power of the bow part and not the arrow.

Sahegian
2007-03-20, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the passage Vael.

Thanks TheElfLord, I was thinking something similar, but I figure there is a small bow there as well so if he needs to use the arrows he can just use that bow at a -2 penalty.

Draz74
2007-03-20, 01:58 PM
I think, though unrealistic, that RAW doesn't differentiate arrow sizes. (The improvised weapon section seems inconsistent, and you can just use the wielder's size.)

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-03-20, 02:13 PM
I think, though unrealistic, that RAW doesn't differentiate arrow sizes. (The improvised weapon section seems inconsistent, and you can just use the wielder's size.)

No, the RAW does differentiate: the damage listed for a short or long bow is the damage that the arrow does, not the bow. Part of the difference in damage is caused by the length of draw of the arrow: more draw = more energy.
The bow does no damage at all. It isn't even a very good club.

RS14
2007-03-20, 02:50 PM
There is a device called a siper which allows an archer to overdraw the bow. As far as I know, they're mostly used for extremely long distance shots with short flight arrows. I suppose one of these could be used to allow small arrows to be shot from a larger bow.

Stormcrow
2007-03-20, 06:11 PM
(The third person to say so.) Having done alot of archery myself including some competition shooting. ;) I know that it IS possible to shoot shorter shafts out of your bow. My draw length is about 40 inches or so and i was shooting some 30" shafts at an event for a while and even some 22"s.

I'd rule as a DM that it wont work with a longbow but will work with a shortbow. Probably at half the usual range. But not taking a hit to damage. Thats fair and allows for the obviously makeshift situation to work until you get some decent shafts.

Jannex
2007-03-21, 02:14 AM
Having done a bit of archery myself (in LARP, where we're not allowed to pull to full-draw for safety reasons), I'm inclined to agree with Stormcrow for the most part; halve the range increment, though I'd also say that if you're using a Composite Bow, you don't get to add your Strength bonus, since you're not actually able to make use of your full strength on the draw.

daggaz
2007-03-21, 08:11 AM
Less range, less damage, AND less to hit. You simply do not have the same accuracy you will have if you can pull your bow all the way back, properly.

You cannot 'lock' the bow or your arm, the bow must be held in an uncomfortable and somewhat unnatural position, and finally the lack of power always results in a lack of accuracy as well.

Shooting short arrows sucks, unless you are a very skilled archer, and even then it still sucks compared to shooting properly sized arrows.

I would rule a -4 penalty to hit, same as the penalty for using any other improperly sized weapon, as well as half damage and half range.

Jannex
2007-03-21, 09:01 AM
That makes sense; your accuracy is impeded when you can't bring the arrow to full draw (though in my case, that might also have something to do with the soft cushy heads on the ends of the arrows as well :smallwink: ).

Fhaolan
2007-03-21, 09:18 AM
There is a device called a siper which allows an archer to overdraw the bow. As far as I know, they're mostly used for extremely long distance shots with short flight arrows. I suppose one of these could be used to allow small arrows to be shot from a larger bow.

The siper was a Turkish thingy, made for composite horsebows. The idea being that you had to extend the side of the stave, so the arrow didn't simply fall off the bow when the point was drawn past the stave itself.

You have to be very careful with overdraw on non-composite bows like Yew longbows and the like. If you're too enthusiastic about it, overdrawing a bow can lead to stave failure on 'normal' bows.

As stated before, weapons one size category smaller/larger are considered to be half/double the size. Say you have a clothyard arrow (I think that's about 40"). One size smaller arrow would be 20". From my experience with archery, the effect is the arrow will basically fly a few feet in an amusing sort of 'whooopsie' patheticness.

In D&D terms, I would say you need a custom-made bow with a rediculously long siper that would allow using over-small arrows.

Matthew
2007-03-27, 07:18 PM
Indeed. For D&D purposes you can buy 20 Arrows for a Short Bow and use them with a Great Bow, but not with a Small Great Bow. Bows are one of the most inconsistant weapons in D&D [i.e. very expensive compared to swords, have a special crafting rule associated with them (unlike every other weapon) and use odd rules with regard to the Strength Attribute).