All the Path of War Guides in One Place!

[Elricaltovilla]

I've decided that since I've moved all my guides to Google Docs, it might be easier to create a single thread containing all of them, and giving me more room to work with for adding new guides as I get around to them. As a bonus, I've added my latest guide, The Zealot, here for your perusal!

I will be working on improving and updating these guides still, Archetypes are next on my list. If there are people interested in helping, I'd love to add some artwork to the guides as well. Please feel free to post here or PM me if you're interested in helping and thank you for your time!

Initiating Introduction Guide (With all the Disciplines!) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k8AO1HL5H-BASvWdx3XsHfyTHHGdb0iBJHmt6cRmj_M/edit?usp=sharing)

In Alphabetical Order:
The Harbinger Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kSmuTy1Hmg6w0lYSW7xoyJKRdAOgTDU1piejfEt37Yg/edit?usp=sharing)

The Mystic Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sCIm2NOaSgY5hM1fFaBqlMaCerLeyBq0UPonK9fTiY8/edit?usp=sharing)

The Rajah Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F-dswG9GKdEnnHDzCzGOj6ZESaXBRA3n6wjgkUedCnI/edit?usp=sharing)

The Stalker Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f468j7r7cQyAoiTfUAJD-2VaeazoYCm8ThC96c_mRYQ/edit?usp=sharing)

The Warlord Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pcpBVliaTaUKlSHh93fkpPY8GC9IMjpwgLGco3ojx-o/edit?usp=sharing)

The Warder Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nuni1TCzVXyhx4rFWjNcEjuDS6goL9hLQDE4il_tzH8/edit?usp=sharing)

The Zealot Guide by Castilonium (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p3Bga5DyWoLW054p55E7V0rBLZbshPpEHzTjLFFYUqI/edit)

Disciplines

Fool's Errand guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BpOo4Rd3FEAhiBTutUJxcaaN8Zkv9ahTkwI9PSkWHag/edit?usp=sharing)- Kris Moonhand

Prestige Classes
With Permission from GhanjRho: GhanjRho's Guide to the Dragon Fury (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y6rRKBlTwsglz1KPa7PDh46ItWx5nocvViv95AaJ2MQ/edit?usp=sharing)

With thanks to Swaoeaeieu: The Landsknecht (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rlg780SDhjDirhwrnF-wG6m5PySf7EcVoeHYbIj76uk/edit)

With thanks to TiaC: The Awakened Blade (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uc6K8TaMiTCGiV5pxOxbSXURBTp_MCY9Bxz3Cnn7IhA/edit)

Archetypes for Base and Core Classes:
With thanks to ninjaxenomorph:
Veiled Lord Warlord (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FKx87vTOcLkioR67hsDWOM1fqh4MU-V0o9wdhVpAbPA/edit?usp=sharing)

With thanks to Fenryr: The Knight Disciple (Paladin) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0AjFQ-_II4bWJjh-nxYbGDYsYxNBlwdiWixCvRupis/edit)

With thanks to Upho: Live to Ride, Ride to Live - A guide to the Hussar class template (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGCuMB5Hl67k5Ro72fotb_vjKnbS_jGwo5gwsRxk3dk/edit?usp=sharing)

Path of War Stuff I Won't (or Didn't) Review:

Class Archetypes:
Vigilante- Thank you ColossusCrusher!
Primal Disciple-
Monk of the Silver Fist-
Knight Disciple- Thank you Fenryr!
Ambush Hunter-
Brutal Slayer- Thank you ColossusCrusher!

Class Templates:
Bushi-
Privateer-
Hussar- Thank you Upho!
Polymath-
Warpath Follower-

Disciplines:
Veiled Moon- Thank you Novawurmson!
Mithral Current- Thank you Keledrath!
Tempest Gale- Thank you Sayt!
Piercing Thunder-

Prestige Classes:
Landsknecht- Thank you Swaoeaeieu!
Phoenix Champion-

Base Classes:
Medic-

[Suichimo]

I've got a build that is basically Zweihander Sentinel Warder 10/Umbral Blade10. You take the Weapon Group Adaptation feat to allow it to use the Umbral Blade's abilities with a weapon that outclasses any that the Veiled Moon uses. You have a reach weapon, which still allows you to attack enemies adjacent from yourself, that gives a shield bonus, and gets a fairly substantial damage boost. He uses maneuvers from Scarlet Throne, Veiled Moon, and Black Seraph. The character is fairly powerful and extremely mobile and you don't really need a Dex score higher than any other Warder to accommodate this. You've got two GREAT plot hooks built into the character in the form of your soul having been sold to a Devil and the Travelogue you get from The Wayward Path.

Oh, and there should be mention of how Zweihander Sentinel is an amazing archetype for the Warder. You lose practically nothing and gain several nice benefits. I don't see how it isn't just a straight upgrade from the Warder.

Also, I hate to up your workload too much but, I think, with the ability for you to be able to switch out any school you know for any other with the use of Martial Traditions, all the class guides should have all the schools in them.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've got a build that is basically Zweihander Sentinel Warder 10/Umbral Blade10. You take the Weapon Group Adaptation feat to allow it to use the Umbral Blade's abilities with a weapon that outclasses any that the Veiled Moon uses. You have a reach weapon, which still allows you to attack enemies adjacent from yourself, that gives a shield bonus, and gets a fairly substantial damage boost. He uses maneuvers from Scarlet Throne, Veiled Moon, and Black Seraph. The character is fairly powerful and extremely mobile and you don't really need a Dex score higher than any other Warder to accommodate this. You've got two GREAT plot hooks built into the character in the form of your soul having been sold to a Devil and the Travelogue you get from The Wayward Path.

That does sound like a great character, at least fluff wise. I haven't poked around too much with the Prestige Classes yet, I want to make sure I understand everything about the base classes first, as that's what you have to compare them against. But Prestige Classes are on my list.


Oh, and there should be mention of how Zweihander Sentinel is an amazing archetype for the Warder. You lose practically nothing and gain several nice benefits. I don't see how it isn't just a straight upgrade from the Warder.

Once I get around to Archetypes for each of my guides, there will be a nice little writeup on the Zweihander Sentinel.


Also, I hate to up your workload too much but, I think, with the ability for you to be able to switch out any school you know for any other with the use of Martial Traditions, all the class guides should have all the schools in them.

I have plans for addressing this in a separate guide. But that will have to wait until after all the disciplines are out :smallwink:

[deuxhero]

The "Because you don't use intelligence for much else it can be difficult to find a way to keep all your skills maxed, but with the right focuses it can be done." that was copy pasted from the warlord guide is still in the int focused Warder's skill description.

[Elricaltovilla]

The "Because you don't use intelligence for much else it can be difficult to find a way to keep all your skills maxed, but with the right focuses it can be done." that was copy pasted from the warlord guide is still in the int focused Warder's skill description.

Good catch. Fixed.

[Elricaltovilla]

The Stalker, Warder and Warlord Guides have been updated to include Archetypes!

[The Glyphstone]

Neat. I'm looking forward to when you get the Harbinger archetypes reviewed...I suspect Crimson Countess is going to get hammered, because it trades away the Dark Focus feature that you've rated so highly.

[Elricaltovilla]

Neat. I'm looking forward to when you get the Harbinger archetypes reviewed...I suspect Crimson Countess is going to get hammered, because it trades away the Dark Focus feature that you've rated so highly.

Actually, that's not the ability that the Crimson Countess gives up that hurts the most. But you'll have to wait for me to update my guide to find out what is. :smallamused:

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, that's not the ability that the Crimson Countess gives up that hurts the most. But you'll have to wait for me to update my guide to find out what is. :smallamused:

The Grim News replacement is also bad. Between the two of them, I don't expect Crimson Countess to get high marks at all.

[Elricaltovilla]

The Grim News replacement is also bad. Between the two of them, I don't expect Crimson Countess to get high marks at all.

Very sharp. Maybe you should write all these guides so I don't have to spend all day giving myself carpal tunnel:smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Very sharp. Maybe you should write all these guides so I don't have to spend all day giving myself carpal tunnel:smalltongue:

I'm sorry. That sounds like work.:smallbiggrin:

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm sorry. That sounds like work.:smallbiggrin:

It is, but oddly enough I love it. I am looking for help if there are any interested parties. I'd like to add some artwork to the guides, and I need someone to do guides for the Class Templates and Mithral Current. I'd do them, but I feel like that would be in bad taste as I also wrote them and I'd prefer to get a more objective opinion.

[ErrantX]

Elricaltovilla, did you make sure to update the maneuvers sections of these guides? I ask because I updated a lot of the maneuvers before the final release.

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

Elricaltovilla, did you make sure to update the maneuvers sections of these guides? I ask because I updated a lot of the maneuvers before the final release.

-X

I updated the ones I could find, but I very well could have missed a few.

Its been tricky to go back and update them all as I don't have a hard copy to take with me to places, and I travel a lot so I don't always have access to my PDF. The PFSRD section is poorly organized and edited, making it even more of a chore. I'm planning on doing a "Guide to Maneuvers" at some point to review all the disciplines and how to get them for each class, that way I can update all the maneuvers in one go and then move those updated lists into the guides themselves.

Was there anything specific you noted? PM/email what I might have missed so I can make corrections.

[Anlashok]

Grim news replacer got you down?

Crimson Countess' can now exit blood form as a free action. Bam. Suddnly we're back in business

Also makes the archetype's design less contradictory to stated goals.

[Elricaltovilla]

Grim news replacer got you down?

Crimson Countess' can now exit blood form as a free action. Bam. Suddnly we're back in business

Also makes the archetype's design less contradictory to stated goals.

Ummm no. Losing Grim News means giving up at will flight/teleportation/freedom of movement in exchange for the ability to become useless in combat and less mobile out of combat than if you had taken at will teleportation.

It is not a good trade in any way.

[Anlashok]

Ummm no. Losing Grim News means giving up at will flight/teleportation/freedom of movement in exchange for the ability to become useless in combat and less mobile out of combat than if you had taken at will teleportation.

It is not a good trade in any way.

I'm not disagreeing with you. That's the point of the suggestion. You'd still lose flight, but it'd be faster than Omenwalk at every level except 10 and more synergistic with her abilities. And less nonsensical with the stated design goals of the class.

[Sayt]

I think it's worth pointing out that the hawkguard is, IIRC, the only dedicated archery Archetype in Path of War to date, and the Defensive Focus works excellently with the Snap Shot line: You get to threaten adjacent to you, Improved furthers your ranged threatened area, and Greater gives you a decent damage bump. I'd nominate it for a fourth star, myself.

Also, I've compiled a non-comprehensive list of maneuvers which have been altered:

Broken Blade
Shards of Steel Strike: Does negate DR in long form.

Steel Axe Kick's daze duration is 1d3 rounds.

Golden Lion
Golden General's Attitude scales up to +5 (1 per 4 levels)

Iron Tortoise
Iron Shell: Should maybe get another star due to the fact that you actually get a Shield Bash + Shield AC, rather than BAB+Shield AC, unlike Steel and Adamantine shell

Enduring Shell: This only works against Fortitude and Reflex saves, so it doesn't stop mind control.

Enraging Strike: now does an unambiguous +10 damage, the will save is easily stackable, (I have it at 19 at level 4 on my Vanguard commander, which I think is decent), and the bonus to hit is now a -2 penalty to hit you.

Shell Defense has been definitively renaged Defensive Shell, and now it's Shield Bash vs. an enemies attack roll (not specified melee, ranged or spell!) against an adjacent ally to negate it.

Tortoise Defense: Now grants DR 20/-, which at least would merit 2/3 stars, I'd think?

Snapping Riposte: Now it's a Shield Bash vs. their attack, and if you beat theirs, you get an attack with your main weapon. The opposed attack roll implies that it negates their attack, but by RAW it doesn't.

Turtle Knight's Stance: Moving makes you give up the stance, but you can retake the stance as a swift action.

Shell Shock: The damaged got bumped 2d6, but 6d6 is still maybe a bit low.

Snapping Turtle Rush: This can, strictly speaking, render prone creatures which are immune to trip, unless I'm mistaken.

Steel Shell: This is actually less likely to negate an attack than Iron Shell, but gives you DR when it fails.

Cyclonic Shell Crush: The extra damage dice got almost doubled in the main book.
Glorious Shell Shock: Got another 3d6 damage

Adamantine Shell: If this didn't give enough DR to swallow almost any attack, I'd count this lower than Iron Shell. Lost 10 DR in the main book.

Scarlet Throne
Scarlet Zweihander: Got a makeover to Scarlet Einhander, and only works when wielding a weapon on one hand. Also now scales.
Scarlet Eye's perception: Strictly speakimg, this stops you power attacking, would not take.
Blade of Perfection: This no longer auto-threatens a critical hit.
Riddle of Steel: Damage got upped to 10d6

Primal Fury
Shoulder Rush: Has a pretty long shelf life, even after you get Improved and Greater bull rush, considering how high bull rush DCs can get.

Disparity blow: Gained a damage bonus, which sweetens the deal.

Meteoric Crash got a name change to Meteoric Collision: And a d6 of damage and a +4 to the bull rush, but still not great.

Blade of Fury: Loses the to-hit bonus, but it gets channeled straight into damage (IE, double IL to damage, no bump to hit)

Meteoric Crash: Gained a to-hit bump, but to hit wasn't the problem.

Wrath of the Primal Hunter: Got nerfed into the dirt. Lost 6d6 daamge and the to hit bonus.

Thrashing Dragon
Talon on the Wing: No longer exists, seemingly. It has been replaced with Leaping Dragon, which is swift action movement, in the form of a jump with a +10 acrobatics check, and you count as running up.

Sweeping Tail: Has had a damage buff.

Vicious Swipe: This does 3d6 and dazes for 1d4 rounds, making this strictly better than Dazing attack

Tail Slap: Bonus damage dice got doubled, maybe kicks this up to four stars? It also takes a bit of reading to get, but this is actually two attacks, at full BAB, on only one of which is a UAS

Steel Serpent
Body of the Night: Got a buff: +4 to hit and +1d6 damage against enemies who are flat-footed or enemies who are denied dexterity. Unfortunately, not to flanked enemies.

Fading Dodge: Not only does this now negate the damage entirely, it gives you a free dirty trick attempt.

Iron Fang: This has only been buffed! It gives a +2 to the DCs of poisons or Pranas delivered with this strike.

Steel Fang: Also got a boost, +3 to DCs of poisons and pranas delivered via this strike.

Spitting Cobra Stance: Got something of a buff: It now increases the damage dealt by
poison by 1 per die, including ability damage die, and increases flat damage by 1. So, sting of the viper goes from 1d6+2 charisma damage on a failed save to 1d6+4 charisma damage.

Adamantine Fang: Like it's predecesors, gets a +4 to DCs of blah blah.

[Draacul]

Well,with Body of the Night you can still troll the GM using various flat-footing maneuvers in combination with Deadly ambush and *4 crit weapons.
I know that because i'm routinely get trolled by it.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm not disagreeing with you. That's the point of the suggestion. You'd still lose flight, but it'd be faster than Omenwalk at every level except 10 and more synergistic with her abilities. And less nonsensical with the stated design goals of the class.

I guess I'm not understanding what you're saying. The Countess is going to be less mobile and less maneuverable than the standard Harbinger in pretty much every single instance. Are you suggesting making a change to how the Crimson Countess works? Cuz that isn't going to happen.


I think it's worth pointing out that the hawkguard is, IIRC, the only dedicated archery Archetype in Path of War to date, and the Defensive Focus works excellently with the Snap Shot line: You get to threaten adjacent to you, Improved furthers your ranged threatened area, and Greater gives you a decent damage bump. I'd nominate it for a fourth star, myself.

Also, I've compiled a non-comprehensive list of maneuvers which have been altered:

Broken Blade
Shards of Steel Strike: Does negate DR in long form.

Steel Axe Kick's daze duration is 1d3 rounds.

Golden Lion
Golden General's Attitude scales up to +5 (1 per 4 levels)

Iron Tortoise
Iron Shell: Should maybe get another star due to the fact that you actually get a Shield Bash + Shield AC, rather than BAB+Shield AC, unlike Steel and Adamantine shell

Enduring Shell: This only works against Fortitude and Reflex saves, so it doesn't stop mind control.

Enraging Strike: now does an unambiguous +10 damage, the will save is easily stackable, (I have it at 19 at level 4 on my Vanguard commander, which I think is decent), and the bonus to hit is now a -2 penalty to hit you.

Shell Defense has been definitively renaged Defensive Shell, and now it's Shield Bash vs. an enemies attack roll (not specified melee, ranged or spell!) against an adjacent ally to negate it.

Tortoise Defense: Now grants DR 20/-, which at least would merit 2/3 stars, I'd think?

Snapping Riposte: Now it's a Shield Bash vs. their attack, and if you beat theirs, you get an attack with your main weapon. The opposed attack roll implies that it negates their attack, but by RAW it doesn't.

Turtle Knight's Stance: Moving makes you give up the stance, but you can retake the stance as a swift action.

Shell Shock: The damaged got bumped 2d6, but 6d6 is still maybe a bit low.

Snapping Turtle Rush: This can, strictly speaking, render prone creatures which are immune to trip, unless I'm mistaken.

Steel Shell: This is actually less likely to negate an attack than Iron Shell, but gives you DR when it fails.

Cyclonic Shell Crush: The extra damage dice got almost doubled in the main book.
Glorious Shell Shock: Got another 3d6 damage

Adamantine Shell: If this didn't give enough DR to swallow almost any attack, I'd count this lower than Iron Shell. Lost 10 DR in the main book.

Scarlet Throne
Scarlet Zweihander: Got a makeover to Scarlet Einhander, and only works when wielding a weapon on one hand. Also now scales.
Scarlet Eye's perception: Strictly speakimg, this stops you power attacking, would not take.
Blade of Perfection: This no longer auto-threatens a critical hit.
Riddle of Steel: Damage got upped to 10d6

Primal Fury
Shoulder Rush: Has a pretty long shelf life, even after you get Improved and Greater bull rush, considering how high bull rush DCs can get.

Disparity blow: Gained a damage bonus, which sweetens the deal.

Meteoric Crash got a name change to Meteoric Collision: And a d6 of damage and a +4 to the bull rush, but still not great.

Blade of Fury: Loses the to-hit bonus, but it gets channeled straight into damage (IE, double IL to damage, no bump to hit)

Meteoric Crash: Gained a to-hit bump, but to hit wasn't the problem.

Wrath of the Primal Hunter: Got nerfed into the dirt. Lost 6d6 daamge and the to hit bonus.

Thrashing Dragon
Talon on the Wing: No longer exists, seemingly. It has been replaced with Leaping Dragon, which is swift action movement, in the form of a jump with a +10 acrobatics check, and you count as running up.

Sweeping Tail: Has had a damage buff, and , after a bit of parsing, is actually two attacks, one of which is a UAS.

Vicious Swipe: This does 3d6 and dazes for 1d4 rounds, making this strictly better than Dazing attack

Tail Slap: Bonus damage dice got doubled, maybe kicks this up to four stars? It also takes a bit of reading to get, but this is actually two attacks, at full BAB, on only one of which is a UAS

Steel Serpent
Body of the Night: Got a buff: +4 to hit and +1d6 damage against enemies who are flat-footed or enemies who are denied dexterity. Unfortunately, not to flanked enemies.

Fading Dodge: Not only does this now negate the damage entirely, it gives you a free dirty trick attempt.

Iron Fang: This has only been buffed! It gives a +2 to the DCs of poisons or Pranas delivered with this strike.

Steel Fang: Also got a boost, +3 to DCs of poisons and pranas delivered via this strike.

Spitting Cobra Stance: Got something of a buff: It now increases the damage dealt by
poison by 1 per die, including ability damage die, and increases flat damage by 1. So, sting of the viper goes from 1d6+2 charisma damage on a failed save to 1d6+4 charisma damage.

Adamantine Fang: Like it's predecesors, gets a +4 to DCs of blah blah.


I really appreciate you looking these maneuvers up for me, I'll be getting them updated and disseminated over the course of the week, while I try and work on my next guide.

I'm not saying that Hawkguard is bad, it isn't. But I don't account for feats in my ratings of archetype abilities, as that requires a specific build. Plus, the Hawkguard's Ranged Defensive Focus and Close Combat Archery already give you the effects of Snap Shot, but with a 15 ft. range.

Actually, if you want to make a potent Ranged Character, take a look at the Steelfist Commando. Steel Serpent has the second highest number of maneuvers that work with ranged attacks, and it retains Solar Wind as a discipline as well. Your bonus feats give you a little bit of protection in melee until you can get Snap Shot at 6th level. With Warlord Bonus Feats, Weapon Group Adaptation, and your pick of ranged feats you can make a surprisingly powerful ranged character.

EDIT: I forgot why I actually posted, the Zealot doc has been updated to include Archetypes.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm planning on doing a "Guide to Maneuvers" at some point to review all the disciplines and how to get them for each class, that way I can update all the maneuvers in one go and then move those updated lists into the guides themselves.

I was going to suggest just that, good work on these guides, looking forward to the maneuver update.

[RedOndjage]

Would you consider adding some potential builds? Or at least ideas for builds like your ranged Steelfist Commando idea? I think that would be pretty useful!

These guides have been great for my gaming group. Thank you so much for all your hard work!

Also, you seem to understand the PoW system very well. I wrote a racial archetype for the warder. If you get a spare minute, could you take a look at it and tell me what you think of it? I based it off of Sayt's Clanhold Warden which I think is great and really hope it makes it into a PoW book or supplement. A racial archetype pdf would probably be pretty nice to see down the road, especially considering certain races don't mix well with certain classes due to stat penalties to initiating stats.


Here's the archetype.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381765-Orcish-Mauler-a-racial-archetype-for-Path-of-War

[Elricaltovilla]

Would you consider adding some potential builds? Or at least ideas for builds like your ranged Steelfist Commando idea? I think that would be pretty useful!

These guides have been great for my gaming group. Thank you so much for all your hard work!

Also, you seem to understand the PoW system very well. I wrote a racial archetype for the warder. If you get a spare minute, could you take a look at it and tell me what you think of it? I based it off of Sayt's Clanhold Warden which I think is great and really hope it makes it into a PoW book or supplement. A racial archetype pdf would probably be pretty nice to see down the road, especially considering certain races don't mix well with certain classes due to stat penalties to initiating stats.


Here's the archetype.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381765-Orcish-Mauler-a-racial-archetype-for-Path-of-War

Builds, if I even decide to do them, will be at the bottom of my priority list considering all the other things I have going on. If I see any really good builds floating around various boards I may collect them here, but I make no promises.

I'm glad you and your group have been able to put my guides to good use. It always puts a smile on my face to hear that.

I've seen your archetype on here and over on the DSP forums. If I take a look at it, it'll just be as a fellow homebrewer, not as a member of the POW design team. We aren't looking at making racial archetypes at this time.

I would like to specifically point out that unless you're dealing with the very highest levels of optimization, a -2 penalty to your initiating stat is not the be all end all. Its not difficult to build around or compensate for unless you really need to pump your save DCs through the roof. Even then there are alternative ways of doing so.

[RedOndjage]

That would be very appreciated. Thanks! Sad to hear about the lack of racial archetypes, but maybe that will get revisited one day.

[Sayt]

I'm not saying that Hawkguard is bad, it isn't. But I don't account for feats in my ratings of archetype abilities, as that requires a specific build. Plus, the Hawkguard's Ranged Defensive Focus and Close Combat Archery already give you the effects of Snap Shot, but with a 15 ft. range.


Actually, Snapshot itself is a dead feat, but Improved increases your 15 to 25, I think?

[RedOndjage]

You mentioned in the thread that you're looking for help. What do you need done? At around mid-December I'll be a lot freer for a few weeks and could put in some work on these guides if you'd like.

[Elricaltovilla]

You mentioned in the thread that you're looking for help. What do you need done? At around mid-December I'll be a lot freer for a few weeks and could put in some work on these guides if you'd like.

Well as I said in my original post, I'd like to get some pictures to add to the docs to spruce them up. If you've got some more confidence, I could also use a write up for Mithral Current and the Class Templates for the guides.

[Elricaltovilla]

All of the maneuver lists have been updated for each class. I have finished guides for Black Seraph and Silver Crane, but as they're part of a larger document, I'm not going to release it yet until it has more material.

[deuxhero]

I like Barroom Brawler (ACG) as a feat for initiators. 1/day being able to pull out any maneuver (or two or a stance) you qualify for a minute is worth a mention.

Fortuitous weapon property (also ACG) should get a mention in the Warder guide if magic items are ever added. Doubling up AoOs is great when AoO boosting is built into the class.

[Elricaltovilla]

I like Barroom Brawler (ACG) as a feat for initiators. 1/day being able to pull out any maneuver (or two or a stance) you qualify for a minute is worth a mention.

Fortuitous weapon property (also ACG) should get a mention in the Warder guide if magic items are ever added. Doubling up AoOs is great when AoO boosting is built into the class.

Barroom Brawler could definitely see use, although I'm not so sure about the Fortuitous weapon property as its only 1/round.

[PsyBomb]

Barroom Brawler could definitely see use, although I'm not so sure about the Fortuitous weapon property as its only 1/round.

It may be only once per round, but the fact is that the Warder is a class built around the concept of nearly ALWAYS being able to make that AoO. Being able to get an additional attack almost every round which stacks with just about everything is a Big Dealtm

[ErrantX]

I updated the ones I could find, but I very well could have missed a few.

Its been tricky to go back and update them all as I don't have a hard copy to take with me to places, and I travel a lot so I don't always have access to my PDF. The PFSRD section is poorly organized and edited, making it even more of a chore. I'm planning on doing a "Guide to Maneuvers" at some point to review all the disciplines and how to get them for each class, that way I can update all the maneuvers in one go and then move those updated lists into the guides themselves.

Was there anything specific you noted? PM/email what I might have missed so I can make corrections.

I'd say to check through maneuvers that you marked violet or red; if it was really good or if it was really bad, I tried to alter them.

-X

[Elricaltovilla]

I'd say to check through maneuvers that you marked violet or red; if it was really good or if it was really bad, I tried to alter them.

-X

Since I've got you, how does Solar Hailstorm Stance interact with haste, speed, rapid shot, manyshot and other extra attack stacking effects? Because the big issue with it was that it explicitly didn't stack with these other effects.

[Elfkin_King]

Will you be doing anything concerning the PrC's? Such as listing (and possibly rating) the PrC's that would work great within each class, or the inverse of that for a handbook covering only the PRC's, rating them, and giving them suggested classes to go into them and how that would affect the overall playstle.

For example: The Dragon Fury can easily be entered using any of the 3 base classes, but can only be done using the Dervish Defender Warder, and that presents a completely different playstyle compared to using a Warlord or even the Stalker to enter into it. (Personally, I'm a big fan of the dervish defender Dragon Fury lol)

[Elricaltovilla]

Will you be doing anything concerning the PrC's? Such as listing (and possibly rating) the PrC's that would work great within each class, or the inverse of that for a handbook covering only the PRC's, rating them, and giving them suggested classes to go into them and how that would affect the overall playstle.

For example: The Dragon Fury can easily be entered using any of the 3 base classes, but can only be done using the Dervish Defender Warder, and that presents a completely different playstyle compared to using a Warlord or even the Stalker to enter into it. (Personally, I'm a big fan of the dervish defender Dragon Fury lol)

I thought I'd answered this in the thread already but I guess not. I will be reviewing the PrCs at some point, but I can't say for sure when. I'm not trying to stake a claim on them though. So if someone else is interested in doing guides, I encourage them to do so. Its a great way to learn the system in depth.

You're right about dervish defender/dragon fury being very different from stalker or warder play, but that's just the nature of the beast really. PrCs will play differently depending on which class is used to enter them because they'll have different abilities to advance.

[ErrantX]

Since I've got you, how does Solar Hailstorm Stance interact with haste, speed, rapid shot, manyshot and other extra attack stacking effects? Because the big issue with it was that it explicitly didn't stack with these other effects.


Solar Hailstorm Stance
Discipline: Solar Wind (Stance); Level: 8
Prerequisite(s): Three Solar Wind maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

A master of the Solar Wind, the disciple may attack with the speed of the sun's rays. While in this stance and making a full attack, he may make two additional ranged weapon attacks using his full base attack bonus and he may add his initiation modifier to damage on these attacks. This is a supernatural ability.

Posted for ease of reference.

I see no reason why you cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot on this now. Haste is not forbidden either. Enjoy your ridiculous torrent of arrows/throwing knives/spoons.

-X

[Sayt]

Please, real professionals uses foons.

[Elricaltovilla]

Please, real professionals uses foons.

Do you mean sporks?

[Sayt]

I'd appeal the rating on Leaping Dragon, personally. It's swift action movement. At level one, with a rank in acrobatics and 16 dex (Not unreasonable for a finesse TWFer?) you can make a jump check as a swift action at +17, which will, on average, net you 25ft of movement as a swift action. Throw in skill focus at 10 and keep it maxed(Not unreasonable, considering it's the counter skill for Thrashing Dragon and Broken Blade) and a and it's a +37, for 35ft minimum movement, and your dex has probably gone up by then.

As, y'know.

A swift action.
So you can still make full attacks.

[ghanjrho]

Some new/changed Stalker Arts I found

Rogue Talent now allows you to take Ninja Trick (the banned list is now advanced talents, Ki Pool and Underhanded). Probably should put it up a star

Obfuscate lasts for Wis Mod minutes and adds the power of cloud mind to your stealthing. THe saving throw makes it tricky, especially because buffing the DC gets expensive, fast.

Ki Vampirism has been tweaked. Both kills and crits apply, but it's 3+WIS per day limit. Which, admittedly, is still a nice buff to your pool. Mayyybe down a star, but I think it's good where it is.

Murderous Insight is my new favorite. For a ki, one attack/round for the next 1+WIS rounds is roll twice and take the better. That's a ~+3 bonus to hit on a 3/4ths class without inherent accuracy buffs, and an almost doubled chance of critting. Sure, it's only one attack per round (as clarified on the DSP forum), but you're an initiating class.

[DarkSonic1337]

The critical edge stalker art stacks with the deadly pairing teamwork feat right? (they both say they apply after keen/improved crit and neither says they don't stack with other threat range increases).

13-20 crit range sounds pretty nice even if it's a bit pricy (1 stalker art, 1 feat, 1 stance, and a +1 weapon property)

[Elricaltovilla]

I've added a new guide to my list, an introduction guide which currently talks a bit about weapon selection and has my guides to all the disciplines currently released, including Black Seraph and Silver Crane.

I am still hoping someone will do reviews of the Bushi, Hussar and Mithral Current Discipline. So if anyone's interested please let me know!

[DarkSonic1337]

Did you forget that the Rapier is a finessable weapon and thus qualifies for deadly agility (it's actually used for the example in the feat itself)? There's no need to go for weapon focus+fencing grace.

Also Scimitar is not a finessable weapon and thus doesn't qualify for deadly agility. You HAVE to go the dervish dance route (or weapon finesse+the agile enchantment) if you want dex to damage with scimitars.

[Elricaltovilla]

Did you forget that the Rapier is a finessable weapon and thus qualifies for deadly agility (it's actually used for the example in the feat itself)? There's no need to go for weapon focus+fencing grace.

Also Scimitar is not a finessable weapon and thus doesn't qualify for deadly agility. You HAVE to go the dervish dance route (or weapon finesse+the agile enchantment) if you want dex to damage with scimitars.

I noted that the scimitar was not finesseable, but also pointed out that even if it was it wouldn't net you a damage increase because you don't get bonus damage for wielding it two-handed.

[deuxhero]

Longbow says it's only a discipline weapon for Solar Wind. It's also a discipline weapon for Silver Crane.

Dwarven Longhammer is worth a mention for Dwarfs (Who are one of the top core options for most martial classes anyways). It's the Earthbreaker with reach (and more weight), plus it's from a "main" book and not Golarion speciffic, not worth an exotic weapon prof though. Problem is that its weapon group(s) is/are never actually given, though it should be a polearm and/or hammer.

[hoborobot]

i was wondering, when would the path of war expanded come out?

[Elricaltovilla]

i was wondering, when would the path of war expanded come out?

When we're done with it. There's still a lot to go: Archetypes, Prestige Classes, Mystic, Elemental Flux, Magic Items?, Monsters?

The last two I'm not even sure are going to make the cut.

[Dusk Eclipse]

But... but Magic Items! How much longer do I have to wait for that awesome magic weapon enchant that made a duplicate of the weapon to use in the off hand (way back from the first PoW thread IIRC)?

Eh... for something more on topic, are you by any chance planning to make something for the archetypes that genuinely change how the class is played? For example a Dervish Defender plays a lot different from a normal Warder, ditto for the Hawkguard.

[Elricaltovilla]

But... but Magic Items! How much longer do I have to wait for that awesome magic weapon enchant that made a duplicate of the weapon to use in the off hand (way back from the first PoW thread IIRC)?

Eh... for something more on topic, are you by any chance planning to make something for the archetypes that genuinely change how the class is played? For example a Dervish Defender plays a lot different from a normal Warder, ditto for the Hawkguard.

There are reviews for each of the Archetypes in the guides. For the most party I don't think they warrant a full guide, although I would encourage you or anyone else to take a crack at it if you feel its necessary. I'm a little too busy to try and tackle that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I understand, the reason why I thought it would be a good idea to expand upon them is that they change the way the class works completely and it changes how things are rated; for example in your Warder guide you rate Dex as an Orange ability score, which is fine and logical, but in the case of a Dervish Defender, it jumps to Blue if not to purple immediately. I may try my hand at it, because I seriously love those archetypes, but I'm fairly busy myself too, so I don't know when I´d be able to do so.

[ghanjrho]

I'm working on a Dragon Fury guide right now, as it happens. When it's finished, should I host it on Google Docs and post the link here?

[Elricaltovilla]

I understand, the reason why I thought it would be a good idea to expand upon them is that they change the way the class works completely and it changes how things are rated; for example in your Warder guide you rate Dex as an Orange ability score, which is fine and logical, but in the case of a Dervish Defender, it jumps to Blue if not to purple immediately. I may try my hand at it, because I seriously love those archetypes, but I'm fairly busy myself too, so I don't know when I´d be able to do so.

I can expand the Archetypes analysis a bit to include alternate stat priorities. That's the fun of google docs, much easier to edit.


I'm working on a Dragon Fury guide right now, as it happens. When it's finished, should I host it on Google Docs and post the link here?

Ultimately that's up to you. I recommend Google Docs just for ease of writing/editing. If you want me to put it in the first post here, I'd be happy to do so, but if you want it in your own space, that's fine too.

[Fatal Rose]

I love these guides!

[Elricaltovilla]

I love these guides!

Always glad to hear that. Thank you :smallbiggrin:

[N. Jolly]

Hey man, like what I see here. Let me know if you ever want to collab on a guide, seems like it'd be fun.

[Sayt]

I ain't got nothing but nothin to do at the moment, So I'm thinking I'll try my hand at an Awakened Blade guide.

[Taveena]

It's worth noting that failing an Intimidate check results in the DC for future attempts increasing by 5, so you can't really take 20 on Black Seraph's Glare. (I only learned this today. Oops.)

[Ssalarn]

Posted for ease of reference.

I see no reason why you cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot on this now. Haste is not forbidden either. Enjoy your ridiculous torrent of arrows/throwing knives/spoons.

-X

Take that Sohei! You're not the only one who can put out 9 arrows a round now... (Though I think with haste, flurry, and the ki attack he still comes out a step ahead, but that's fine, he really should).

[GhorrinRedblade]

I ain't got nothing but nothin to do at the moment, So I'm thinking I'll try my hand at an Awakened Blade guide.

Don't toy with me; this is really going to happen...?

Cautiously optimistic,
Ghorrin Redblade

[Arbane]

You might want to downgrade the rating you've given Shards of Iron Strike - according to the SRD, it's been nerfed from auto-stun to auto-stagger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers). Which is still good, but not as much of a must-have.

[xt828]

I'm not sure if I'm calculating this correctly, but if I take a Zweihander Warder Duergar with an Impact Fauchard and Primal Warrior Stance, at 6th level I can be hitting for 5d8+bonus damage? That's d10 base -> 2d8 impact -> 3d8 enlarge person -> 5d8 primal warrior stance. Seems rather good for that level.

[Vhaidara]

I'm not sure if I'm calculating this correctly, but if I take a Zweihander Warder Duergar with an Impact Fauchard and Primal Warrior Stance, at 6th level I can be hitting for 5d8+bonus damage? That's d10 base -> 2d8 impact -> 3d8 enlarge person -> 5d8 primal warrior stance. Seems rather good for that level.

Well, that is a fair bit of investment. Also, since Impact is a +2 enhancement, you would need a +1 Impact Fauchard. Which costs 18000gp. Which, since you aren't supposed to have anything costing more than 1/2 WBL, means level 9.

[Sayt]

Don't toy with me; this is really going to happen...?

Cautiously optimistic,
Ghorrin Redblade

It's almost in a state to post, matter of fact.

[xt828]

Well, that is a fair bit of investment. Also, since Impact is a +2 enhancement, you would need a +1 Impact Fauchard. Which costs 18000gp. Which, since you aren't supposed to have anything costing more than 1/2 WBL, means level 9.

Ah, our GM hasn't been enforcing the 1/2 WBL. Even without that, though, you're looking at 4d8 base at 6th level, and you can trade out Duergar for a party member able to cast enlarge person - which is a fairly standard buff spell.

[GhorrinRedblade]

It's almost in a state to post, matter of fact.

Oooh, that's zesty news. I look forward to reading it. You gonna drop word here when it's ready?

[deuxhero]

Eternal Guardian's Unberable Gaze is activated when you are targeted. Can't you can use it against a spellcaster and force them to roll concentration?

[Nyaa]

On Grim News: Harbinger can get Stance of the Ether Gate at level 5, almost the same thing as Omenwalk - doesn't let you teleport through doors (which you could do at level 5 with Ghostwalk anyway), but doesn't provoke for disengaging with it. IIRC Harbinger can't get flight from its disciplines, unless he takes Black Seraph tradition. Therefore, it would make sense to take Dark Wings first.

[CGNefarious]

Would you generally suggest only focusing on two disciplines in a build? I was trying to build a Harbinger with Cursed Razor, Shattered Mirror, and Veiled Moon and I was having trouble meeting the prereqs. Is that standard among the classes or a consequence of the Harbinger's fewer maneuvers known?

[Feint's End]

@Zealot:

As I've mentioned in the other thread I think that the recovery method of the zealot is way too limited as it is now. Yes standard action recovery is nice IF you have an ally around. However being the only class dependant on having an ally around kind of sucks.

-Rating of Unleash the Godess: Counting as being psionically focused doesn't let you expend focus as much as you want. You still have to regain your original focus. I do however see that it could be interpreted otherwise so I'll ask for clarification.

[stack]

Would you generally suggest only focusing on two disciplines in a build? I was trying to build a Harbinger with Cursed Razor, Shattered Mirror, and Veiled Moon and I was having trouble meeting the prereqs. Is that standard among the classes or a consequence of the Harbinger's fewer maneuvers known?

I find, and believe others will agree, that outside of level 1 maneuvers it is best to focus on not more than two disciplines unless you spend feats to improve your number known. Not to say you can't try to cherry pick some here and there from a third, but it isn't easy. There are many tempting maneuvers, so it can be hard to narrow your focus.

[Nyaa]

And if you take Advanced Study you better be ready to spend another feat or two on Extra Readied Maneuver to be able to actually use these maneuvers.
I hope PoW:Ex will fix these issues with favored class bonuses.

[CGNefarious]

I would absolutely love a FCB similar to the human sorcerer one. But I don't see that happening. Even something like +1/2 maneuvers known would be awesome.

[Nyaa]

Some races from Bloodforge have FCB of +1/4 maneuver known.

[137beth]

Why are the Golden Lion maneuvers not rated in the warlord guide:smallconfused:
They are in the general guide with all the maneuvers, but not in warlord despite being available to warlords. I'm guessing this is just a copy/paste error.

[Elricaltovilla]

A recent update to the Mystic has caused me a bit of a conundrum. The Mystic has traded Broken Blade for Mithral Current, which is both awesome and a little bit troublesome for me.

I enjoy writing up these guides for you all to use, and want to bring you the best possible guide I can, to that end I decided I won't be writing guides for any of the POW material I wrote for Dreamscarred Press. And that's the conundrum. I need a guide for Mithral Current for my Mystic Guide, but I won't write it myself in order to remain unbiased. So, I'm recruiting someone to help me with the Mystic Guide and in lieu of offering payment (because I'm poor), I'll share credit with you for the guide and give you a baker's dozen internet cookies for the trouble.

So who wants to help me write a mystic guide?

[Vhaidara]

You know, I wasn't going to, and then I realized this is basically what I've done with Flux and Grave. I'll take a shot at it. Probably tomorrow or later tonight though. Got things coming up this afternoon.

[Nyaa]

Not that I want you to stop having fun, but maybe it's worth waiting until Mystic is published? It seems to be in active development.

[Elricaltovilla]

Not that I want you to stop having fun, but maybe it's worth waiting until Mystic is published? It seems to be in active development.

I'm not writing the guide just yet. ErrantX will let me know when its done enough that I can put something out there, but Mithral Current is all but ready for printing (as are all three class templates) so it really doesn't hurt anything to get a head start on this. I usually write up a template for the class before I get started anyway.

[Vhaidara]

Writing now, on level 3, will post when finished. And also, you probably want to have your general disciplines guide finished out. I can work on Piecing Thunder tomorrow, if you want.

[Elricaltovilla]

Writing now, on level 3, will post when finished. And also, you probably want to have your general disciplines guide finished out. I can work on Piecing Thunder tomorrow, if you want.

That was my next thing. While I have down time before writing the mystic guide I was going to try and get a list of stuff that needs fixed/updated for my guides. I'm quite certain there's a lot of it.

[Dgrin]

You know, I'd try to do at least Mithral Current too. I will do that today or tomorrow. I don't really have time for all the disciplines but other opinion may be useful :smallwink:

[Elricaltovilla]

You know, I'd try to do at least Mithral Current too. I will do that today or tomorrow. I don't really have time for all the disciplines but other opinion may be useful :smallwink:

I'm always willing to accept help with this project. Cuz its a massive pain in my butt :smalltongue:

[Vhaidara]

Finished faster than expected. Will be leaving now.

Swift Current****: Strike for +1d6 is fairly standard at this level. However, the draw bonus is very nice in combination with the right class features and stances (Body of the Night springs to mind), which helps it age quite well.

Tidal Blade****: Comparing this to other maneuvers, it does the same thing as Scything Blade from Scarlet Throne: Hit 2 dudes. But, if you draw your weapon, you get a bonus to hit. So potentially better.

Flowing Creek*****: Okay, for perspective, most skill check AC replacers are level 2. and this lets you take a 5ft step if they miss. Fun times.

Following Wake***: So, spend your swift and attach a trip (using Perform (Dance)) to you next attack. Definitely not something to brush off lightly if you are focusing more on control than damage

Ready the Draw*****: This makes the discipline work at low levels before you have the feats to draw/sheathe normally. The extra Combat Reflexes is a bit odd for Warders (does it stack with Defensive Focus?), but this stance is still pretty much mandatory if you want to use on draw effects at low levels.

Reaching Blade Stance****: Damage and reach. Sadly, the damage ages once you can full attack, but more Reach will never be a bad thing (especially since you threaten all of it)

Dual Crash***: +2d6 damage isn't bad. However, +2d6 damage and two hits before activating a Boost is wonderful. [Question for Elric: does the bonus damage apply to both hits? If so, move up a rank]

Iron Wave***: Again, +2d6 damage isn't bad, and the draw effect here isn't nearly as strong as with Dual Crash. However, it is a lot more awesome to visualize.

Calm the Storm*****: Okay, when you get it, this lets you hit someone in retaliation. However, this might be the best scaling counter in PoW. The higher level you get, the more attacks your opponent has. Therefore, the more it will hurt them to lose them. And big things, especially ones that work with class levels, tend to have lower Reflex saves. I can genuinely see myself readying this at 20

Ride the Wake**: I almost gave this a one star, but I can see it having uses. It's a primarily defensive boost that doesn't protect you from AoO.

Riptide Strike***: Standard fare for these strike. +2d6 damage, and trip with +2 as a rider. Passable maneuver.

Salt Breeze Strike**: Decent damage, but the draw rider isn't fantastic [Note to Elric: Maybe save or blind for a round? would up to blue]

Flowing Water Stance**: Defensive bonuses. The initiative is nice, but I would switch out of this as soon as that wasn't needed. The big problem is that, while you can sheathe your weapon as a free action, without Mithral Current Style, this is completely useless. Kick this up to Blue**** with MC Style, since that is the truly glaring problem.

Rippling Current****: Swift Current's older brother. Again, great because of how many things work only against flat footed targets. If you aren't using anything like that, this drops to Orange**

Rushing Wake***: Now, let me clarify something: This is Purple***** for control builds. If you want damage, don't look here, but if you have a focus on tripping and have a reach weapon (thinking Zweihander Sentinel with Reaching Blade Stance), this can trip ARMIES. Even funnier if you can get flight and charge over them, sweeping their legs out as you go.

Silver Wave****: So, that's a jump. Previously, your best strikes were dealing 3d6. Now we have 6d6, and if you draw you get range (and you get to look awesome)

Disruptive Wave***: Caster's don't always need to target you, but this will make them never WANT to. The ability to run up to Mr Squishy and slap him around is fantastic. Obviously not useful if you aren't fighting casters.

Blinding Reflection****: So, lots of extra damage, and a save or suck draw rider. And one of the nastier sucks, as well. And, if they make the save, you get a small consolation rider

Ride the Current*****: This scales for the same reason Calm the Storm does: High level enemies rely on multiple attacks. With this, you shut down their attack (by moving out of range) and get to stab them back (trading for the POSSIBLE hit on you).

Whirlpool Strike***: Nice AoE. Remember to combine with Reaching Blade Stance if you can get the draw rider to extend your reach and add some damage

Flowing Stream*****: You may have noticed a certain bias here, but these counters are great in their scaling. Dodge the attack, shank the enemy, and run away to safety. [Note for Elric: It mentions Reflex saves. Can you use this to completely dodge stuff like Fireball?]

Rapid Current***: This is the upgrade to Dual Crash. Now you get 2 hits standard and a third on draw. [Note for Elric: Same question as Dual Crash, does the damage apply to the draw hit? If so, move up a grade]

Mithral Flash***: Attack vs attack is pretty reliable, and the counterattack is a nice addition. However, your opponent can keep attacking, unlike with other counters in the discipline.

Quicksilver Wave***: The raw damage isn't aging well at this stage. Still looks cool.

Endless Current****: Given the phrasing "10ft step", I'm assuming this works like a 5ft step but longer. If so, this is one of the best ways I've ever seen to reach a backline caster. [Note to Elric: If I'm wrong, this is red]

Mithral Current Stance**: Sad but true. This stance has almost no synergy with the rest of the discipline. The best thing about it is swinging twice on a standard, but that's a bit weak for a 6th level stance.

Crashing Wake****: Remember the silly trips I mentioned on Rushing Wake for builds with reach? Well, now it's silly AoE damage. Would be purple, but doesn't prevent AoO from ruining your day.

Flowing River*****: Remember how I mentioned Disruptive Wave and casters not wanting to target you? Now you don't need a charge line, and get to stab him twice for more damage. Also, boosting skills is way easier than boosting saves.

Raging Whirlpool Strike****: I call this one "The Blender". Slice them up nice and small. On draw nets you two hits and +8d6 damage against everyone adjacent to you.

Blade of the Silver Sea**: So, the same damage as everything else, but no AoE or movement. However, this pulls the silver properties of MC into play (finally). Also worth grabbing a Silver weapon if you want this.

Mithral Wave*: +12d6 and possible range does not an 8th level maneuver make. [Note to Elric: Maybe make this one a Cone attack?]

Mithral Lightning Stance*****: Speed, AC, and counterattacks. Want to have some fun? Use Crashing Wake in this stance. Watch them try to stab you. Worth noting that since you counterattack when they attack, instead of on a hit or a miss, your attack goes before theirs, so you can kill them to negate.

Riptide Slice**: Better because Flat footed scales better than Close Range, but still just an upgrade of a first level maneuver.

And the 9th...

Truesilver Tsunami***: To explain, you make a full attack with everything dealing +4d6. That's the damage you're dealing. DR applies only once to the total, and if you draw, you ignore miss chance and concealment. Fun, but not the best 9th. Wish it had more synergy with the stances.

[Elricaltovilla]

Finished faster than expected. Will be leaving now.

Swift Current****: Strike for +1d6 is fairly standard at this level. However, the draw bonus is very nice in combination with the right class features and stances (Body of the Night springs to mind), which helps it age quite well.

Tidal Blade****: Comparing this to other maneuvers, it does the same thing as Scything Blade from Scarlet Throne: Hit 2 dudes. But, if you draw your weapon, you get a bonus to hit. So potentially better.

Flowing Creek*****: Okay, for perspective, most skill check AC replacers are level 2. and this lets you take a 5ft step if they miss. Fun times.

Following Wake***: So, spend your swift and attach a trip (using Perform (Dance)) to you next attack. Definitely not something to brush off lightly if you are focusing more on control than damage

Ready the Draw*****: This makes the discipline work at low levels before you have the feats to draw/sheathe normally. The extra Combat Reflexes is a bit odd for Warders (does it stack with Defensive Focus?), but this stance is still pretty much mandatory if you want to use on draw effects at low levels.

Reaching Blade Stance****: Damage and reach. Sadly, the damage ages once you can full attack, but more Reach will never be a bad thing (especially since you threaten all of it)

Dual Crash***: +2d6 damage isn't bad. However, +2d6 damage and two hits before activating a Boost is wonderful. [Question for Elric: does the bonus damage apply to both hits? If so, move up a rank]

Iron Wave***: Again, +2d6 damage isn't bad, and the draw effect here isn't nearly as strong as with Dual Crash. However, it is a lot more awesome to visualize.

Calm the Storm*****: Okay, when you get it, this lets you hit someone in retaliation. However, this might be the best scaling counter in PoW. The higher level you get, the more attacks your opponent has. Therefore, the more it will hurt them to lose them. And big things, especially ones that work with class levels, tend to have lower Reflex saves. I can genuinely see myself readying this at 20

Ride the Wake**: I almost gave this a one star, but I can see it having uses. It's a primarily defensive boost that doesn't protect you from AoO.

Riptide Strike***: Standard fare for these strike. +2d6 damage, and trip with +2 as a rider. Passable maneuver.

Salt Breeze Strike**: Decent damage, but the draw rider isn't fantastic [Note to Elric: Maybe save or blind for a round? would up to blue]

Flowing Water Stance**: Defensive bonuses. The initiative is nice, but I would switch out of this as soon as that wasn't needed. The big problem is that, while you can sheathe your weapon as a free action, without Mithral Current Style, this is completely useless. Kick this up to Blue**** with MC Style, since that is the truly glaring problem.

Rippling Current****: Swift Current's older brother. Again, great because of how many things work only against flat footed targets. If you aren't using anything like that, this drops to Orange**

Rushing Wake***: Now, let me clarify something: This is Purple***** for control builds. If you want damage, don't look here, but if you have a focus on tripping and have a reach weapon (thinking Zweihander Sentinel with Reaching Blade Stance), this can trip ARMIES. Even funnier if you can get flight and charge over them, sweeping their legs out as you go.

Silver Wave****: So, that's a jump. Previously, your best strikes were dealing 3d6. Now we have 6d6, and if you draw you get range (and you get to look awesome)

Disruptive Wave***: Caster's don't always need to target you, but this will make them never WANT to. The ability to run up to Mr Squishy and slap him around is fantastic. Obviously not useful if you aren't fighting casters.

Blinding Reflection****: So, lots of extra damage, and a save or suck draw rider. And one of the nastier sucks, as well. And, if they make the save, you get a small consolation rider

Ride the Current*****: This scales for the same reason Calm the Storm does: High level enemies rely on multiple attacks. With this, you shut down their attack (by moving out of range) and get to stab them back (trading for the POSSIBLE hit on you).

Whirlpool Strike***: Nice AoE. Remember to combine with Reaching Blade Stance if you can get the draw rider to extend your reach and add some damage

Flowing Stream*****: You may have noticed a certain bias here, but these counters are great in their scaling. Dodge the attack, shank the enemy, and run away to safety. [Note for Elric: It mentions Reflex saves. Can you use this to completely dodge stuff like Fireball?]

Rapid Current***: This is the upgrade to Dual Crash. Now you get 2 hits standard and a third on draw. [Note for Elric: Same question as Dual Crash, does the damage apply to the draw hit? If so, move up a grade]

Mithral Flash***: Attack vs attack is pretty reliable, and the counterattack is a nice addition. However, your opponent can keep attacking, unlike with other counters in the discipline.

Quicksilver Wave***: The raw damage isn't aging well at this stage. Still looks cool.

Endless Current****: Given the phrasing "10ft step", I'm assuming this works like a 5ft step but longer. If so, this is one of the best ways I've ever seen to reach a backline caster. [Note to Elric: If I'm wrong, this is red]

Mithral Current Stance**: Sad but true. This stance has almost no synergy with the rest of the discipline. The best thing about it is swinging twice on a standard, but that's a bit weak for a 6th level stance.

Crashing Wake****: Remember the silly trips I mentioned on Rushing Wake for builds with reach? Well, now it's silly AoE damage. Would be purple, but doesn't prevent AoO from ruining your day.

Flowing River*****: Remember how I mentioned Disruptive Wave and casters not wanting to target you? Now you don't need a charge line, and get to stab him twice for more damage. Also, boosting skills is way easier than boosting saves.

Raging Whirlpool Strike****: I call this one "The Blender". Slice them up nice and small. On draw nets you two hits and +8d6 damage against everyone adjacent to you.

Blade of the Silver Sea**: So, the same damage as everything else, but no AoE or movement. However, this pulls the silver properties of MC into play (finally). Also worth grabbing a Silver weapon if you want this.

Mithral Wave*: +12d6 and possible range does not an 8th level maneuver make. [Note to Elric: Maybe make this one a Cone attack?]

Mithral Lightning Stance*****: Speed, AC, and counterattacks. Want to have some fun? Use Crashing Wake in this stance. Watch them try to stab you. Worth noting that since you counterattack when they attack, instead of on a hit or a miss, your attack goes before theirs, so you can kill them to negate.

Riptide Slice**: Better because Flat footed scales better than Close Range, but still just an upgrade of a first level maneuver.

And the 9th...

Truesilver Tsunami***: To explain, you make a full attack with everything dealing +4d6. That's the damage you're dealing. DR applies only once to the total, and if you draw, you ignore miss chance and concealment. Fun, but not the best 9th. Wish it had more synergy with the stances.

Thanks for getting this done so quickly! To answer some questions:

Dual Crash and Related: The bonus damage does not apply to the extra attacks gained for drawing your weapon.

Endless Step: The 10 ft. steps are like 5 ft. steps but... 10 ft. long. So it works exactly how you think it does.

Mithral Current Stance: Makes me sad to think this doesn't have any synergy. Any thoughts on how to improve/fix that issue?

[Vhaidara]

The problem is that MC Stance has nothing to do with either counterattacks or drawing, which seem to be the two foci of this discipline. Rather, it makes you a bit faster (woo, Flux got better at 3), treat as silver (pretty useless/fluffy except in combination with Blade of the Silver Sea), and an extra attack on standard and full attacks. The biggest problem is that maneuvers don't really take advantage of Standard or Full Attack actions. Maybe the stance lets you initiate maneuvers as counterattacks?

The big thing for me, when I look at a discipline, is the stances. The stances are the backbone of the discipline, and should be able to tell you, in no uncertain terms, what the discipline does. Unquiet Grave mimics Undead. Elemental Flux manipulates the elements. Black Seraph turns you into the Angel of Death. Broken Blade breaks people, not blades. Golden Lion is for your allies, not you. Silver Crane makes you a holy knight. They all have a theme.

Current has a theme as well: Samurai. From the Iaijutsu that is most of it, to attacking against overwhelming odds (Reaching Blade + AoE maneuvers). But multiple attacks, and only when not using your maneuvers, isn't that.

Also, I believe it is Errant formatting the discipline: Thank you so much

[Dgrin]

Swift Current**** - Strike. Fairly standard bonus damage of +1d6 but draw bonus makes that very good. This may even be useful on higher levels. Or it could if there weren't straight upgrades to it :smalltongue:

Tidal Blade**** - Strike. So, it is better Cleave which does not cost a feat. May also be used with boosts to clear small enemies better

Flowing Creek***** - Counter. Skill check to negate an attack. You can also take a 5-foot step for free which can interrupt full attacks. Great counter that comes online earlier than usual, and you get to negate an attack even if there is no place to 5-foot step into. That will age gracefully as you level up.

Following Wake**** - Boost. If we go with full version, that is free trip attempt with good chances to succeed. You may use it with one of your AoE strikes for sweet trips cause they generally include only one attack roll. However, short version implies that you need to charge, which downgrades that boost to green

Ready the Draw***** - Stance. That stance is equivalent to 4 feats. That is something that enables your fighting style and allowes you to utilize draw bonus. Great stuff

Reaching Blade Stance**** - Stance. Usual bonus damage for first level stances with nice additional effect. If it works on attacks of opportunity, increasing your reach, this may be even better


Dual Crash*** - Strike. Make 2 attacks at full BAB as standard action. It is good, and even better with boosts but not being able to attack another target and low use without draw bonus seal the final rating

Iron Wave*** - Strike. It is definitely cool but not cool enough to be ranked higher. It is like Dual Crash but with weaker draw effect

Calm the Storm*** - Counter. I don't really like counters that require you to get hit in order to use them but that one is quite strong - you get to counterattack your foe and prevent other attacks from him. This becomes stronger while you level up but Flowing Creek can protect you from all attacks, does not require your enemy to fail their save and is one level lower

Ride the Wake** - Boost. This one is bad. If that protected you from AoO at least from the target of your attack (like withdraw), that could be better but now it is not worth preparing.

Riptide Strike*** - Strike. Another +2d6 strike with draw bonus. Trip may be useful so that one is on par with Dual Crash


Salt Breeze Strike*** - Strike. Another [Level]d6 strike with draw effect. This one is even weaker than usual. I'd suggest to change it to penalty to all d20 rolls for round, which makes that strike blue

Flowing Water Stance** - Stance. You sheathe weapon only at the end of your turn. That means your enemies do not provoke attacks of opportunity from you. This may be fixed with feat investment but as it is, defensive bonuses are not worth it.

Rippling Current**** - Strike. Swift Current's big brother. Everything said still applies. Having an easy way to make your opponent flat-footed is great for many characters

Rushing Wake** - Boost. That forces you to provoke in order to utilize it. It could be good for niche builds if it allowed you to use your reach but now it is not worth being hit


Silver Wave**** - Strike. Higher damage makes that worthwhile and treating your weapons as silver is nice little addition.

Disruptive Wave*** - Counter. I like that. It is quite situational and not the strongest counter but it is badass. And that is the reason to love it

Blinding Reflection**** - Strike. The usual strike pattern but it has the chance to blind which is one of the strongest conditions you could have. Basically, that is save or suck

Ride the Current*** - Counter. It is basically Calm the Storm without save. But then you remember that Flowing Creek is level one and can prevent first attack too. It does not offer a counterattack but that's not too useful without bonus damage anyway. Not too good for level 4


Whirlpool Strike**** - Strike. Nice AoE, great for clearing hordes of small enemies. This is a single attack roll so you may combine it with boosts and Reaching Blade Stance. Good stuff

Flowing Stream***** - Counter. All my love for Flowing Creek applies here. Stopping full attacks, offering counterattack and enchanced mobility - what's not to like?

Rapid Current*** - Strike. Pretty straightforward - you deal some good damage. This one is a boss killer, basically

Mithral Flash*** - Counter. This negates only one attack, but with pretty good chance and also allows you to counterattack with nice bonus damage. Why not, I guess?


Quicksilver Wave*** - Strike. I think I've seen that maneuver somewhere... Yea, pretty much everything I said applies here - it is above average but not more.

Endless Wake*** - Boost. To be honest, I am not sure how to rate that. It may be awesome if you have enough enemies that are staying in some kind of formation but it also may be quite useless

Mithral Current Stance** - Stance. Too weak for level 6. Additional attack on standard action does not justify taking it, even with minor bonuses like speed increase. If you have some ways to utilize silver weapons (like style feat), that may be green

Crashing Wake**** - Strike. It is like Rushing Wake but if you have reach, you don't provoke so it is good AoE damage


Flowing River***** - Counter. Now we are talking. Immediate move to the caster to spoil his day - and you get to use skill bonus for saves

Raging Whirlpool Strike**** - Strike. I love that strike. Everyone loves it. Apart from poor foes close to you when you're doing it. Still a single attack roll to combine with boosts

Blade of the Silver Sea** - Strike. May be useful if you are going to use silver vulnerability but too niche for me


Mithral Wave** - Strike. This again? Not at 8th level. Skip that

Mithral Lightning Stance***** - Stance. I love that stance. That is the reason to use all that maneuvers which still provoke attacks from enemies. Amazing mobility and great thematically

Riptide Slice** - Strike. The same problem - damage is not too good at that level and rider is not amazing enough too


Truesilver Tsunami**** - Tons of damage but not anything special. Kinda boring for capstone. But strong. It is capstone, after all. Yea


I already offered some thoughts on the discipline as a whole in PoW thread, I will think more tomorrow. Now I am quite tired so I am going to sleep soon. Hope my work was useful for you :smallwink:

[Feint's End]

Elricaltovilla: Can you offer your opinion on what I said about the Zealot? Maybe I'm not seeing it but in my eyes the class has some major flaws. I'd like to hear your point of view (especially on skills, recovery method and the bad fort save).

[Elricaltovilla]

Elricaltovilla: Can you offer your opinion on what I said about the Zealot? Maybe I'm not seeing it but in my eyes the class has some major flaws. I'd like to hear your point of view (especially on skills, recovery method and the bad fort save).

I'll agree that the recovery method is flawed, Novawurmson is working on that. A good Fort Save would benefit the class, but I don't know that its super necessary, just a bit disappointing and it kind of breaks with the standard class setup. The skills... meh. I'm not too worried about the skills unless its a class that's supposed to utilize them.

[Vhaidara]

Zealot actually has one of my favorite recovery methods, and it fits the class beautifully. I don't really understand the concern about solo play: Why would you use a Zealot (or a Vitalist/Tactician) in solo play? Their main ability is literally making a collective to help their allies! It's like running a Bard solo and complaining that Inspire doesn't do enough.

[Feint's End]

I'll agree that the recovery method is flawed, Novawurmson is working on that. A good Fort Save would benefit the class, but I don't know that its super necessary, just a bit disappointing and it kind of breaks with the standard class setup. The skills... meh. I'm not too worried about the skills unless its a class that's supposed to utilize them.

Yes, yes and yes. I agree with all 3 of them. I kind of understand the skills now if it fits the class setup but I'm still confused on the bad fort save. Hopefully we'll get that. Then the whole class would make a bit more sense to me (tough frontline fighter with leadership capabilities instead of the current mashup between a supernatural support (high will like the other two classes) and frontline melee).


Zealot actually has one of my favorite recovery methods, and it fits the class beautifully. I don't really understand the concern about solo play: Why would you use a Zealot (or a Vitalist/Tactician) in solo play? Their main ability is literally making a collective to help their allies! It's like running a Bard solo and complaining that Inspire doesn't do enough.

The Bard point is kind of moot because it still affects themselves. There will be situations in every campaign (or at least most campaigns) where you have to fight for yourself and what about the Zealot then? I get why they use this recovery but is it too much to ask for an alternative? Even the Mystic has Blade Meditation so they have a way to work around.

The optional recovery doesn't even have to be all that great (heck let them use Aid Another on themselves as a full round action and let them pay some pp) but it would still be nice to have. As I've said in the other thread Mind of the World Mover just doesn't cut it (and feels like a tacked on fix to an inherent problem). Also Mind of the World Shaker becomes so good that it's basically a Conviction tax (and taxation shows bad design).

[deuxhero]

Maybe let Fight Defensively/Total Defense recover maneuvers as well?

[Vhaidara]

Okay, well, I'm bored. Time to write up Piercing Thunder. Which should be good study for my Dragoon build. Yes, I have a friend who wants me to help him build his FF XIV character in PF. I'm thinking heavy focus on Piercing Thunder and Primal Fury on a Warlord.

EDIT: Just got a response from a PbP GM, won't be doing this until tomorrow

[Vhaidara]

Alright, here goes Piercing Thunder, Primary comparison will be to Primal Fury (charges and damage)

Something I noticed: Elric, you seem to misunderstand how Reach weapons work. You have a natural Reach (5ft for medium). A reach weapon doubles that. So if you give +5ft reach with a maneuver, your reach becomes 10ft, and reach weapons threaten at 15 and 20. So if you combined Goring Strike and Stance of Piercing Thunder at level 10 and used a Reach Weapon, you would attack a line out to 30ft (5 base +5 SoPT +5 GS, all doubled by Reach). Citation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-templates) (scroll down to the diagrams)

I've also noticed, in both this and Mithral Current, that you have a lot more "upgrade" maneuvers than normal. I look at other disciplines and don't really see maneuvers that could just be the same name with Lesser, Normal, and Greater. You, meanwhile, have Lancet Charge, Lancer's Edge, and [Metal] Wave. Give the higher level ones some kind of rider beyond just a damage increase. If I want damage, I can play a Paizo class. I play PoW to do fun things that aren't damage.

Mounted Warrior****: Alright, alleviates your feat tax for a while, gives you a bonus on ride, and once you have the feat, protects your mount. For perspective on this, Skill check to negate attack is normally a second level counter. Admittedly, this has to be an attack at your mount, but mounts tend to be squishier, and it doesn't eat your immediate.

Bronze Lancet Charge***: Same rating as Panther on the Hunt. More damage, but less accuracy. The important thing is still that you ignore AoO. [Note for Elric: I mentioned this in the PoW:E thread, but currently the action is 1 standard and the range is a full round action.]

Piercing Strike**: Sadly, this is unlikely to be very useful because it requires enemies to line up. But it looks awesome. [Note to Elric: So, is this not usable if you only have 5ft reach (You wouldn't threaten 2 enemies in a line originating from you)? If so, this is flawed. I might also include a clause that lets you use it against Large creatures, dealing an extra 50% damage instead of getting 2 hits?]

Bronze Lancer's Edge****: Boost for 1d6 (1d8 with discipline). Damage boosts at level 1 are actually rare. Also, you activate this after scoring the hit. So no chance of wasting it.

Stance of Piercing Thunder*****: Okay, a lot of low level stances scale. Usually just the damage. This nets you scaling damage, AC, and eventually some free reach

Mounted Defender****: A level earlier than most skill check AC replacers, protects you or your mount, and has the rider of fear removal. Nice.

Dismounting Strike*: Here's the problem: If you built for mounted combat, you want to stay mounted. The bonus damage is VERY nice, however, the attack comes after the dismount, so no mounted charge multipliers are applied here. And if you aren't mounted, then obviously it's useless. [Note for Elric: It's an interesting idea, but, as I said, it's just asynergystic with a mounted combat build and not usable by those who aren't mounted]

Hastened Burst**: Nice swift action movement. Not usable if not mounted, which hurt its score.

Armor Piercing Thrust****: Very nice. Aim at Touch AC with some bonus damage? Very nice with Martial Charge.

Brace for Impact****: "You wanna charge me? GET STABBED!" This is attack roll attack negation with a counterattack, possibly at double damage. And charges are common enough to not drop it to green.

Throwing Thunder**: Very cinematic, but kind of questionable. This runs into ability priorities. If you're Str based, you have a bad to hit roll with this. If you're Dex based, you probably don't have a backup weapon (discipline weapons are heavy). Falls solidly into the "Look like a badass" category of maneuvers.

Phalanx Lancer***: An interesting stance, I kind of wish this was a level 1 to enable Spartan builds before level 5. It is almost entirely defensive, which is a mark against it, but if you want to go for spear and shield, it's pretty much mandatory. [Note to Elric: How does this interact with Zweihander Sentinel's Armament Shield?]

Levering Hammer***: Damage is pretty good for the level, and the rider is good enough. [Note for Elric: I question your flavor text. Most discipline weapons are piercing weapons (at least in part). I don't see how an overhand blow works with a lance or spear :P]

Iron Lancer's Edge***: Upgrade of Bronze Lancer's Edge, in keeping with MLd6 (d8 with discipline weapon). Again, activate after you confirm the hit, otherwise the damage is already starting to age. Worth noting is that, with Pounce, this becomes Blue**** again.

Goring Strike***: The reach bonus is the goal here. Again, lines are just not something you can usually count on. [Notes for Elric: "dread spear", not "dead spear". Also, correct the reach in you example]

Leaping Strike**: Same problem as Dismounting Strike. At least you now have a VERY situational non-mounted option. Alo, the damage is LOW. Primal Fury just got -4 to hit for 35 damage with a two handed weapon, with none of this dismounting or jumping nonsense. [Notes for Elric: I recommend including the jumping option on Dismounting. Also, include some kind of bonus to the check to jump high enough. 10ft high is DC 40 with a running start No running start means DC 80. That's getting into TO skill checks. And seriously, Furious Primal Wrath can be used in a lance-wielding, mounted Martial Spirited Charge.]

Iron Lancet Charge***: Hey look, it's a new metal! must be an upgrade to an old maneuver. Damage is nicer, but still not amazing.

Twisting Lance**: Trip at +4 and attack if successful for some bonus damage. This is pretty late. [Note for Elric: Consider Riptide Strike form MC. That's level 2, and you get a hit, then the trip. Yes, the bonuses are smaller, but that's expected from the level difference.]

Mounted Retort***: Another AC replacer counter, this time with a counter attack. Good enough for a relatively lackluster level.

Iron Horse Stance*: Does nothing for you, and if you're mounted, you're probably better off with Mounted Warrior's ability to negate attacks against your mount instead of an AC boost and some DR. I suppose this could be Blue**** or even Purple***** is you're using some bizarre build where the mount is the primary combatant and you're supporting (Mounted Summoner picking up Martial Training?)

Twisting Parry****: I love this. Very good imagery, especially if you're fighting badly organized enemies.

Dismounting Thrust**: Mounted enemies aren't too common. However, this is amazing against them. [Note to Elric: Should probably word it to allow for still knocking down unmounted enemies. Also, can we get a version of this at a lower level, like 2? It seems odd that you can't unhorse someone (a classic jousting thing) until level 9]

Meteor Spiral Thrust****: Here's a fun thing. Damage, ignore DR, and a chance to daze. That's a solid 5th level maneuver.

Impaling Comet Strike***: The damage is solid, ignoring DR is good, the reach is awesome. However, again, lines are probably the most situational kind of AoE.

Lightning Rush**: This is Blue**** if you're mounted. Ignoring AoO is great, and the move speed makes some mounts crazy. [Note to Elric: Please allow this unmounted]

Glorious Thunder Charge**: This could be excellent. Except for how comparable it is to Meteor Spiral Thrust. You trade Ignoring DR for ignore AoO, which, while good, puts them on the same level, not one a level higher, especially since this has to be in a charge.

Steel Lancer's Edge**: Upgrade time. Damage is getting old. [Note to Elric: Consider other boost, particularly Devastating Momentum. One level higher, and you get the max damage with discipline weapon (40) guaranteed. It also ignores DR and adds a stun rider. And because it's flat damage, it works infinitely better with mounted combat than this]

Wounding Lance*: Grapple scales badly, since it runs into CMD problems. And high level enemies who survive the charge are going to be strong, so DC 17+ Initiation mod is easy for them, which makes the Con damage negligible. Which it is anyways, because of how slow it is.

Breaking the Charge****: Excellent. Countering your own trick is something that is often overlooked

Slayer's Lance**: Again, mounted enemies aren't too common, making this too situational for me to recommend. And beyond that, most tournament style mounted combats look down on attacking the mount.

Lance Commander's Stance**: At this point, Stance of Piercing Thunder is giving you the same reach, +3 AC, and +3d6 damage. So the reach and damage are about equal. I can see recommending this to Zweihander Sentinels and no one else, because you won't have the AoO or the threatened area to make proper use of it otherwise.

Lancer General's Strike**: This sounds awesome, but it will force you to take Quick Draw to get a new weapon out. And that's a completely unnecessary feat tax when you already have Mounted Combat and you weapon chain.

Adamantine Lancer's Edge*: DAMAGE ONLY BOOSTS ARE NOT GOOD AT THIS LEVEL [Note for Elric: This is pretty much identical to Aurora Break from Solar Wind, except that fighting style supports a TON of attacks in a round. This fighting style is individual MASSIVE hits. And this does less damage]

And our capstone...
Piercing Charge of the Dread Lancer***: Not a bad ender, but it still runs into the problem of lines. Still, worth picking up for the one time your GM is nice. [Note to Elric: I recommend making the d8s for discipline weapon, not mounted. Mounted gets a longer line and charge multipliers]

The biggest problem, Elric, is that you are using almost exclusively dice for damage bonuses. Mounted combat seriously rewards flat bonuses. I'm not even sure I would touch this for a mounted combatant because Primal Fury is so much better (even if it does tax me Martial Charge)

[Elricaltovilla]

I didn't write Piercing Thunder. I included it in the class templates document because the Hussar is the primary means of gaining access to the discipline right now.

I appreciate the work you're doing helping me out, but the critiques of the disciplines would be better served in the discussion thread, not this one. I'd like to save any questions here for issues with wording, ratings, or necessary updates to the guides.

[Vhaidara]

I'll repost it then. I thought you had done all of the stuff in the class templates doc, which also meant you wouldn't be able to review them yourself, since you don't review your own content.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'll repost it then. I thought you had done all of the stuff in the class templates doc, which also meant you wouldn't be able to review them yourself, since you don't review your own content.

I've poked and prodded at nearly everything in PoW:E, Piercing Thunder included, but Piercing Thunder has been around since before PoW apparently. Its an easy assumption to make. It still makes my life easier not having to write up more reviews for it.

[Dgrin]

I got some free time today, so you can expect one more review from me today

EDIT: Either I am too kind today or this discipline is awesome. Whoever wrote it - he definitely deserves a cookie. It is quite strong and has a lot of different and interesting options which are not too under- or overpowered.

Anyway - here's my review. I swear I wanted to use it myself while writing it - I occasionally refreshed the page twice and had to do all that again...


Sands of Time Approach***: Strike – Fatigue is not the best condition, and this one has no bonus damage and works only on living targets (although this is not too likely to come up often). Not great but decent

Strike the Hourglass*****: Strike – The ability to stop your target from moving is very potent. That strike is basically auto-stagger if you hit your opponent

Minute Hand*****: Boost – 1d6 bonus damage is quite usual for first level. However, that one is done as swift action, which is absolutely awesome even with a penalty to hit. It is great for low levels, just don't expect this to last

Clockwatcher**: Counter – It is too niche for my taste. It may sometimes be useful but not often enough for me to warrant preparing it

Sands of Time**: Stance – +2 to initiative and Reflex? Is that it? I could have the same but with additional +2 to AC and initiative if I went Silver Crane route

Distorted Clock****: Stance – This in combination with Silvered Mirror's Stance makes your buffer's best friend. On its own - I assume it does notwork on effects that are already affecting you. If it does, it is swift action to extend all buffs and halve the durations of all negative conditions - this should be enough to bump that to purple. And it may cause a weird cycle when you can use your swift every round to extend the duration of all buffs forever :smalltongue:


Temporal Burn***: Strike – The bonus damage is slightly higher than usual for second level but there's no rider effect and it is used only versus living targets. Not bad

Chronal Aggression***: Strike – It is ranged touch with decent damage which guarantees at least one round of sickening. Good for its level but not going to scale later

Stopwatch****: Counter – Quite usual counter for that level, skill check versus attack roll to 5-ft step out. Can interrupt full attacks but requires you to have place to 5-ft step into

Unhindered Step***: Boost – It is always nice to have additional mobility, so why not?

Rapid Strike****: Strike – 2 attacks on standard action, each doing bonus damage. That is what Flurry of Blows should have been


Probability Twist***: Boost – Reroll any d20 roll on your turn. Interestingly, it does not specify that you have to be the only who made the roll so, if you can, for example, force your enemy to reroll their save, upgrade that to blue

Temporal Fury****: Strike – Slow is great. No save slow is even better. Bonus damage never hurts. Lasts for only 2 rounds though but still a solid maneuver

Time Skitter*****: Boost – Haste is often THE buff to go for on that level, that lets you use haste on your self as swift action and lasts long enough

Flicking Defense*****: Counter – That counter lets you protect yourself or your ally. It forces a -4 penalty AND a reroll from your foe. For that level, it i basically a nope button

Riven Hourglass Stance***: Stance – Nice little defensive stance but it is simply not too good for third level



Gift of Time****: Boost – Donate the action to your ally. Let your wizard cast twice per round (three time with Quicken). Touch range is a huge drawback though.

Tip the Hourglass****: Strike – 5d6 is not too shabby for that level, so this strike will be quite good even if your enemy succeeds on his save

Chronal Draw***: Strike – The damage is less than Tip the Hourglass and I am not convinced that exhausting is better than slowing. Also Tip the Hourglass can be used on ranged attacks. Chronal Draw targets Will though, so it is more likely to succeed

Temporal Body Adjustment*****: Counter – Wait, is that... Iron Heart Surge! No, seriously, look at it! Not exactly but here it is. Negate any one negative condition affecting you. Yes, it is that awesome. No, you cannot TBA the sun. Also, the short version actually says that it can also be used on allies within 60 ft. If that is the case, update the rating to potentially the best maneuver in PoW



Hour Hand****: Boost – Swift action to make an additional attack. This one can be used only as a part of an attack but extra attack is never going to hurt (It is not going to hurt you, I mean. It IS going to hurt your foes, that's what it's for)

Sands of Time Tornado***: Strike – Melee types generally lack AoE. This one offers nice little damage with nice little debuff. Unfortunately, that's just not enough (and you will have better options)

Time-Thief’s Talons***: Strike – Mediocre damage + mediocre healing + awesome name = quite good maneuver that continues to scale as you level, albeit slowly

Relativity Burst***: Counter – Trade your immediate action for move. Immediate/swift actions are generally more useful than move but this may be used for some shenanigans like messing with your foe's action economy, interrupting their full attacks etc.



Shatter the Hourglass**: Strike – If your enemy fail his save, he's basically dead. Otherwise you just wasted your action. Fortitude save is often the highest save for monsters

Temporal Wave*****: Strike – 40 ft. cone of no save nauseating your foes. Damage and chance to slow are just being an icing on the cake.

Temporal Distortion: Counter – No full version text for this one so I'm not going to rate it

Sand-Bearer’s Swiftness**: Stance – It is good but you could have haste for decent time three levels lower. Hence the rating



Sands of Time Hurricane**: Strike – Two attacks for every adjacent target with no bonus damage? If each one offers a separate chance to nauseate is becomes a little better but I'm not sure it deserves green rating even in that case

Temporal Dilation**: Strike – It is tough to say when that is going to be useful. I guess the best use for it would be some hilarious out-of-combat shenanigans considering the target does not notice that is was missing

Beat the Clock*****: Counter – Trade your immediate for out-of-turn standard. That just has too many uses



Wrath of Time***: Strike – AoE damage with Fortitude save for half. For that level - raw damage is not going to be useful, and that is not an exception. Being AoE is the only thing which saves it

Heart of the Time Lord***: Counter – Basically, that's your contingency. But I personally dislike maneuvers that require you to die in order to be useful. You trade one readied maneuver for being safe from death from hit point damage. Some people may find that good but not me

God of the Hourglass Stance*****: Stance – Wow, just wow. That lets you act in any Time Stop and lets you initiate your own time stops. If you have some way to negate Con damage - it is borderline broken although you don't have a lot of ways to interact with enemies from that effect. You're not a wizard, after all


Break the Hourglass*****: Counter – Aaand the capstone does not disappoint. Trade your immediate for full-round action. Who needs turn order? Who said you can only have one turn in a given round?

[Vhaidara]

Elric, I just noticed that your Warder guide has the Martial Training line rated purple. With the note that it is amazing for non-initiators. Also, that means it's rater higher than Advanced Study. Was that intentional?

[Elricaltovilla]

Elric, I just noticed that your Warder guide has the Martial Training line rated purple. With the note that it is amazing for non-initiators. Also, that means it's rater higher than Advanced Study. Was that intentional?

Yes that was a deliberate choice on my part. The rating for Martial Training has nothing to do with the ratings for other feats in the guide and I tried to make that clear by stating the purple rating only applied to non-initiators.

[Vhaidara]

Yes that was a deliberate choice on my part. The rating for Martial Training has nothing to do with the ratings for other feats in the guide and I tried to make that clear by stating the purple rating only applied to non-initiators.

I thought feats were rated based on how good they were for the class relevant to the guide, in this case Warder. I mean, metamagics are great, but you're not going to go and rate them high in a Barbarian guide.

It just feels kind of misleading that the guide says "This is an amazing option but not for you"

[Elricaltovilla]

I thought feats were rated based on how good they were for the class relevant to the guide, in this case Warder. I mean, metamagics are great, but you're not going to go and rate them high in a Barbarian guide.

It just feels kind of misleading that the guide says "This is an amazing option but not for you"

Its probably in need of an update, but I did that deliberately because there were no PoW archetypes at the time and I wanted people to be excited to use the options even if they couldn't redo their characters (such as if they were stuck playing a monk or fighter). The feat is still situationally useful and kind of hard to rate as it depends on the usefulness of the maneuvers you choose.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm going to add a list to the first post of POW:E stuff that I won't be writing guides for, along with the people who helped me write the guides for the material.

[Vhaidara]

Updating at request by Elric

Mithral Current is a discipline focusing on Iaijutsu combat. For the layman, it's the thing a samurai does where he pulls his sword out and suddenly his opponent is in two pieces. When they're ten feet away from him.

Many of the maneuvers in Mithral Current get a bonus if you draw your weapon when initiating them. This would normally be problematic, but the discipline helps you out by frequently allowing you to sheathe your weapon after striking, and its stances (and Style feats) help you threaten with your weapon sheathed.

Possibly the strongest aspect of Mithral Current is its amazing counter potential. It contains some of the best counters in Path of War (along with Riven Hourglass). It does make fairly heavy use of its discipline skill, Perform (Dance), which, while it may sound like a horrible tax, is alleviated by the Agile Dancer feat, which lets you use that skill for Acrobatics (and use your Dex mod instead of Cha).

The Associated Weapon Groups are Light Blades, Heavy Blades and Polearms.

Swift Current****: Strike for +1d6 is fairly standard at this level. However, the draw bonus is very nice in combination with the right class features and stances (Body of the Night springs to mind), which helps it age quite well.

Tidal Blade****: Comparing this to other maneuvers, it does the same thing as Scything Blade from Scarlet Throne: Hit 2 dudes. But, if you draw your weapon, you get a bonus to hit. So potentially better.

Flowing Creek*****: Okay, for perspective, most skill check AC replacers are level 2. and this lets you take a 5ft step if they miss. Fun times.

Following Wake***: So, spend your swift and attach a trip (using Perform (Dance)) to you next attack. Definitely not something to brush off lightly if you are focusing more on control than damage

Ready the Draw*****: This makes the discipline work at low levels before you have the feats to draw/sheathe normally. The extra Combat Reflexes is a bit odd for Warders (does it stack with Defensive Focus?), but this stance is still pretty much mandatory if you want to use on draw effects at low levels.

Reaching Blade Stance****: Damage and reach. Sadly, the damage ages once you can full attack, but more Reach will never be a bad thing (especially since you threaten all of it)

Dual Crash***: +2d6 damage isn't bad. However, +2d6 damage and two hits before activating a Boost is wonderful. [Question for Elric: does the bonus damage apply to both hits? If so, move up a rank]

Iron Wave****: +2d6 Damage is good, and applying vulnerability to silver can ramp up your damage really fast

Calm the Storm*****: Okay, when you get it, this lets you hit someone in retaliation. However, this might be the best scaling counter in PoW. The higher level you get, the more attacks your opponent has. Therefore, the more it will hurt them to lose them. And big things, especially ones that work with class levels, tend to have lower Reflex saves. I can genuinely see myself readying this at 20

Ride the Wake**: I almost gave this a one star, but I can see it having uses. It's a primarily defensive boost that doesn't protect you from AoO.

Riptide Strike***: Standard fare for these strike. +2d6 damage, and trip with +2 as a rider. Passable maneuver.

Salt Breeze Strike***: Damage is nice, and the draw rider is effective, if nothing else.

Flowing Water Stance**: Defensive bonuses. The initiative is nice, but I would switch out of this as soon as that wasn't needed. The big problem is that, while you can sheathe your weapon as a free action, without Mithral Current Style, this is completely useless. Kick this up to Blue**** with MC Style, since that is the truly glaring problem.

Rippling Current****: Swift Current's older brother. Again, great because of how many things work only against flat footed targets. If you aren't using anything like that, this drops to Orange**

Rushing Wake***: Now, let me clarify something: This is Purple***** for control builds. If you want damage, don't look here, but if you have a focus on tripping and have a reach weapon (thinking Zweihander Sentinel with Reaching Blade Stance), this can trip ARMIES. Even funnier if you can get flight and charge over them, sweeping their legs out as you go.

Silver Wave****: So, that's a jump. Previously, your best strikes were dealing 3d6. Now we have 6d6, and if you draw you get range (and you get to look awesome). The silver vulnerability is icing.

Disruptive Wave***: Caster's don't always need to target you, but this will make them never WANT to. The ability to run up to Mr Squishy and slap him around is fantastic. Obviously not useful if you aren't fighting casters.

Blinding Reflection****: So, lots of extra damage, and a save or suck draw rider. And one of the nastier sucks, as well. And, if they make the save, you get a small consolation rider

Ride the Current*****: This scales for the same reason Calm the Storm does: High level enemies rely on multiple attacks. With this, you shut down their attack (by moving out of range) and get to stab them back (trading for the POSSIBLE hit on you).

Whirlpool Strike***: Nice AoE. Remember to combine with Reaching Blade Stance if you can get the draw rider to extend your reach and add some damage

Flowing Stream*****: You may have noticed a certain bias here, but these counters are great in their scaling. Dodge the attack, shank the enemy, and run away to safety. [Note for Elric: It mentions Reflex saves. Can you use this to completely dodge stuff like Fireball?]

Rapid Current***: This is the upgrade to Dual Crash. Now you get 2 hits standard and a third on draw. [Note for Elric: Same question as Dual Crash, does the damage apply to the draw hit? If so, move up a grade]

Mithral Flash***: Attack vs attack is pretty reliable, and the counterattack is a nice addition. However, your opponent can keep attacking, unlike with other counters in the discipline.

Quicksilver Wave****: The raw damage isn't aging well at this stage, but the silver vulnerability really does help this stay valid

Endless Current****: Given the phrasing "10ft step", I'm assuming this works like a 5ft step but longer. If so, this is one of the best ways I've ever seen to reach a backline caster. [Note to Elric: If I'm wrong, this is red]

Mithral Current Stance***: Application of silver vulnerability is a theme, but this doesn't really do a whole lot beyond that. There are better stances, but this is passable.

Crashing Wake****: Remember the silly trips I mentioned on Rushing Wake for builds with reach? Well, now it's silly AoE damage. Would be purple, but doesn't prevent AoO from ruining your day.

Flowing River*****: Remember how I mentioned Disruptive Wave and casters not wanting to target you? Now you don't need a charge line, and get to stab him twice for more damage. Also, boosting skills is way easier than boosting saves.

Raging Whirlpool Strike****: I call this one "The Blender". Slice them up nice and small. On draw nets you two hits and +8d6 damage against everyone adjacent to you.

Blade of the Silver Sea**: So, the damage is on par with the rest of the level. The big advantage is if you can cut out regen. If you're this far into the discipline and don't have a silvered weapon, you clearly don't care about that.

Mithral Wave**: +14d6 and possible range still don't make for an 8th level strike. The silver vulnerability is okay, but now you have a stance for that. [Note to Elric: I still think this should be a cone.]

Mithral Lightning Stance*****: Speed, AC, and counterattacks. Want to have some fun? Use Crashing Wake in this stance. Watch them try to stab you. Worth noting that since you counterattack when they attack, instead of on a hit or a miss, your attack goes before theirs, so you can kill them to negate.

Riptide Slice**: Better because Flat footed scales better than Close Range, but still just an upgrade of a first level maneuver.

And the 9th...

Truesilver Tsunami***: To explain, you make a full attack with everything dealing +4d6. That's the damage you're dealing. DR applies only once to the total, and if you draw, you ignore miss chance and concealment. Fun, but not the best 9th. Wish it had more synergy with the stances.

Just checking, were there any other changes beyond silver vulnerability on the waves, auto sheathing, and Mithral Current Stance? I didn't really notice anything else.

[Elricaltovilla]

Thanks again for doing this Keledrath. The only extra thing I'd like to ask you to do is add a short blurb at the beginning that introduces the themes of the discipline and what kind of abilities the maneuvers focus on. Pretty please?

[Vhaidara]

"Mithral Current is a horrible pile of stupid uselessness designed by some backwards weaboo obsessed with animu fightan magiks."

Edited in the real one. Hope what I wrote is acceptable.

[Elricaltovilla]

"Mithral Current is a horrible pile of stupid uselessness designed by some backwards weaboo obsessed with animu fightan magiks."

Edited in the real one. Hope what I wrote is acceptable.

You have no idea how true that is.

Thanks for adding the real blurb.

[Elricaltovilla]

The Mystic Guide has been added to the first post of this thread.

[stack]

Be nice to get more discussion on the WIS SAD mystic when you can, both soulknife dips and intuitive fighting can work well, in my opinion.

[Vhaidara]

Elric, since you seem accepting of other people's guides, here's my discipline guide (WIP) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gMblWHaR2sv9KGGIWNFUnCsumrIdWofArHX8gDeuOWE/edit).

[Anlashok]

Do you pass all this stuff on to the other devs internally Elric?

Just wondering if the people making the classes and archetypes are hearing you when you say that Flux's ninth is unimpressive or Lightning Speed is just a crappy wind speed or mandala adepts just being a downgrade from basic, etc.

[Elricaltovilla]

Do you pass all this stuff on to the other devs internally Elric?

Just wondering if the people making the classes and archetypes are hearing you when you say that Flux's ninth is unimpressive or Lightning Speed is just a crappy wind speed or mandala adepts just being a downgrade from basic, etc.

I give the other devs a chance to look over my findings before I publish these. Sometimes they make changes, sometimes not.

[stack]

Mystic guide - animus isn't gained every time you initiate a maneuver but in any round you initiate a maneuver, meaning you only get 2/round, one from the round passing, one from the maneuver, regardless of how many maneuvers you used.

In PF you can ignore spell prerequisites for items when crafting, except for spell trigger and spell completion, so with a good spellcraft check you can craft all by yourself. Makes me think we need an INT focused archetype.

I would rate elements as one as blue if focusing on elemental flux and red otherwise, outside of niche psionic builds that could use it.

[jff362]

For folks who didn't catch it yet, the Harbinger has been officially released (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9dq6/discuss?Path-of-War-Expanded-Harbinger)!

The main tweaks is that Accursed Will has been toned down to:

"At 1st level, the harbinger adds 1⁄2 her Intelligence modifier (minimum
+0) as an insight bonus to attack rolls. At 10th level, the harbinger gains an insight bonus to damage rolls equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum +0)."

Other than that, per Jade Ripley on the Paizo forums (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9dq6/discuss?Path-of-War-Expanded-Harbinger#7) the remaining changes are:

"Lots of little stuff, mostly. Razor saw a top-to-bottom wording-and-rebalancing edit (one of its low-level boosts became a different thing entirely), Mirror got cleaned up, and both of the book's 8th-level Stances got fixed and rebalanced 'cause they were psychotic before and I'm not sure what I was on when I wrote them."

I think they tweaks are good ones and make a very flavorful and mechanically interesting class even more solid.

While I'm here, *BIG* thanks for your Harbinger and Disciplines guides! I'm new to Path of War and they've been a big help in learning it.

[Elricaltovilla]

For folks who didn't catch it yet, the Harbinger has been officially released (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9dq6/discuss?Path-of-War-Expanded-Harbinger)!

The main tweaks is that Accursed Will has been toned down to:


Other than that, per Jade Ripley on the Paizo forums (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9dq6/discuss?Path-of-War-Expanded-Harbinger#7) the remaining changes are:


I think they tweaks are good ones and make a very flavorful and mechanically interesting class even more solid.

While I'm here, *BIG* thanks for your Harbinger and Disciplines guides! I'm new to Path of War and they've been a big help in learning it.


Glad you like my guides. I'll get around to updating the Harbinger Guide and Disciplines later this week when I have free time. I'm playing a harbinger too and loving it. The class is still an amazing work of synergy even with the nerfs. I think they were good choices.

[jff362]

Just noticed an error in the Disciplines guide. It says
Shards of Iron Strike*****: Hit your opponent and stun them for one round with no save.

...but at least on the PFSRD it says " the target is staggered for one round in addition to normal damage."

[Nyaa]

Is Animus Healing really worth Green rating? IMO it's Orange at best at levels 1-4 (and you probably have more important feats to take then), and Why Didn't You Take Advanced Study (Elemental Flux Stance) Instead at 5+.

[Elricaltovilla]

Is Animus Healing really worth Green rating? IMO it's Orange at best at levels 1-4 (and you probably have more important feats to take then), and Why Didn't You Take Advanced Study (Elemental Flux Stance) Instead at 5+.

It's free out of combat healing by spending points of animus you were going to lose due to not being in combat anymore anyway. There are much better uses for Advanced Study than Fast Healing Stances.

[Nyaa]

It's free
<...>
There are much better uses for Advanced Study
Guess I'm missing something big here. Advanced Study can be taken multiple times. Is Animus Healing really better use of a feat than getting Elemental Flux Stance?

[Elricaltovilla]

Guess I'm missing something big here. Advanced Study can be taken multiple times. Is Animus Healing really better use of a feat than getting Elemental Flux Stance?

When you're using Advanced Study to take it, yes. Especially if all you want out of Elemental Flux Stance is fast healing. There's a 6th level Silver Crane stance that gives Fast Healing 5. Or you could pick up the 5th level Silver Crane Stance (or the 5th level Black Seraph Stance) for unlimited Flight. Stance of the Ether Gate gives at will teleport and qualifies you for the Dimensional Dervish feats.

If you're mucking around with anima and elemental flux, you're going to take Elemental Flux Stance anyway. Burning a feat on it is a bad move. Anima Healing gives you something to use your leftover Animus pool on at the end of combat and can save you money and healing spells. I'm in no way saying it's a great feat, but if you have room in your build, and nothing else to take, it's a decent option. Thus, it rates green. Solid, but not necessary.

[Dgrin]

Just noticed an error in the Disciplines guide

It is not an error. This guide was written when it was still a stun, if I am not mistaken.

[Elricaltovilla]

It does still need updated though. I need to make time to properly update everything, but between work and DSP stuff, I don't have the free time to tackle all the little edits I need to make.

[Dgrin]

It does still need updated though. I need to make time to properly update everything, but between work and DSP stuff, I don't have the free time to tackle all the little edits I need to make.

I think I started writing down some of them I noticed. I will try to find that.
Do you need our help at all? If yes, post them here or in private message?

EDIT: Found it


7th level - Charge of the Ravager: I think the restriction of targeting different foes with every attack does not apply to primary target of your charge, you get to make full attack AND punch some other unlucky dudes, once per enemy in case you case change the direction of your charge

8th level - Vampiric Aura: As I read it, it stacks with itself, granting you HP for every target in range but refreshing that HP every round

8th level - Void Seraph Strike: How does it protect your target? The miss chance applies to your target's attacks, not to attacks made versus him

Subject to rework, so it I am not going to look at it it now

3th level - Dogpile Strike: As I understand, the target does not need to be flanked, only cursed to have the chance to be knocked prone

4th level - Warlock's Stride: That's not the question about your guide but I'd like to clarify whether the cursed aura is visible for others

5th level - Festering Curse: The text does not mention that the damage stops when your target succeeds on save, only that the damage for that round is negated

7th level - Traitor's Roar: You may want to mention that the target has to make "whatever it percieves as the most harmful ability possible". Although it is very DM-dependent even in that case

8th level - Warlock's Mirror: You redirect the attack not to one but to three targets of your choice. Don't know if you missed that or simply decided not to write about it


I am not going to argue about your ratings, that's more or less subjective thing. But I will write here some maneuvers in which I noticed some kind of mistake or need for clarification.

EDIT 2: Damn, did not see your reply :smallannoyed:. Anyways, it is done now

[Elricaltovilla]

I think I started writing down some of them I noticed. I will try to find that.
Do you need our help at all? If yes, post them here or in private message?

Hang on to them for now. What I might do when I have some free time is open the docs up for comments/suggestions so people can go in and suggest corrections directly in the document. That way I can just go through and accept/reject people's suggested changes. Makes things quicker and easier than running through a bunch of PMs or forum posts. Obviously, I'll include big thank yous for anyone who helps out!:smallbiggrin:

[jff362]

How do Stances work out of combat?

(Apologies if this is answered elsewhere--I've Googled a bit but haven't found an answer.)

Lines like this (from System & Use) imply one might be in a stance all day long:


A stance remains in effect indefinitely and is never expended. The benefit of your chosen stance continues until you change to another stance you know as a swift action.

Though this implies there could be some limit, or at least that they're intended for combat more than out of combat:


A stance is a type of fighting method that you maintain from round to round. So long as you stay in a stance, you gain some benefit from it. A martial disciple who performs a kata and assumes a specific posture as he prepares to fight is using a stance.

Lets take as an example this stance from the Shattered Mirror discipline (which was just released in the Harbinger PDF but isn't yet on the PFSRD).


Silvered Mirror Stance (Su): When you assume this stance, choose a single non-personal range power, psi-like ability, spell, or spell-like ability affecting you. While you maintain this stance, allies within 30 feet of you also gain the benefits of the chosen effect for as long as it is affecting you

This would be an amazing way to share buffs out of combat, e.g. casting Overland Flight or Stoneskin on the Harbinger and getting it for free on any ally within 30'. What are the limits to this?

[jff362]

As an aside, just realized that Tenebrous Reach + an ability to strike everyone in your reach (e.g. Broken Blade's Spinning Flurry Rush) could get incredibly nutty: Punching everyone within 50' (twice!!)

[jff362]

How do Stances work out of combat?

(Apologies if this is answered elsewhere--I've Googled a bit but haven't found an answer.)

Lines like this (from System & Use) imply one might be in a stance all day long:



Though this implies there could be some limit, or at least that they're intended for combat more than out of combat:


Lets take as an example this stance from the Shattered Mirror discipline (which was just released in the Harbinger PDF but isn't yet on the PFSRD).


This would be an amazing way to share buffs out of combat, e.g. casting Overland Flight or Stoneskin on the Harbinger and getting it for free on any ally within 30'. What are the limits to this?

OK, got my answer: one can indeed stay in a stance from the moment you wake up to the time you go to sleep (or go unconscious or are otherwise made helpless).

[Adam500]

I've been kicking around ideas for a Path of War character for a while now, and I recently fell in love with the Eternal Guardian discipline from the playtest. The only real issue with it is that I'm not big on the Zealot, but I know I can sub a discipline out in another class for it.

I've been eyeing Zweihander Warder for a while as well, as the idea of the 'Zone of Nope' appeals to me (I played a similar character as a Jedi in SAGA edition Star Wars), and was wondering if anyone had any reccomendations for this combination.

I'm also afraid Eternal Guardian on Warder might be a little redundant as they cover some of the same ground, and I'm not sure what kinds of things I should look to use out of other disciplines (I know I can resonably expect to use stuff from 1 other, and Counters from Iron Tortoise seem a likely candidate).

Thoughts anyone?

[mostholycerebus]

Old thread, but relevant question: do you intent to update these guides with the recent revision of Zealot, Sleeping Goddess and Eternal Guardian? Or are the revisions so minor that this is not required?

[Elricaltovilla]

Old thread, but relevant question: do you intent to update these guides with the recent revision of Zealot, Sleeping Goddess and Eternal Guardian? Or are the revisions so minor that this is not required?

Every guide will be updated after PoW:E is finished to include the new material from that book. Right now there isn't much point in updating the guides yet. Depending on forum rules I might have to post them all in a new thread though. We'll see.

[Renen]

And if you can add things like analysis of the Crane discipline (Maybe you did and I missed it)
And I think some maneuvers were changed after you did the guides too.

[Elricaltovilla]

And if you can add things like analysis of the Crane discipline (Maybe you did and I missed it)
And I think some maneuvers were changed after you did the guides too.

A lot has changed. There's going to be major overhauling done once I get around to updating these guides. Obviously, help is appreciated.

Silver Crane should be in the Initiating Introduction Guide, which has ratings for all the disciplines.

[mostholycerebus]

Awesome, thanks for the response and eventual update. Really looking forward to release of this book.

[jff362]

Hey there. I'm building a 2nd level Warder with a 15pt buy. I see the recc to put CON and INT first, followed by STR. I am willing to dump CHA below 10 but really reluctant to do so with WIS or DEX. We'll do max HP at 1st, 1/2+1 after that, so at 2nd he'd have 12+7+CON+fcb. With a +2 from CON he'd have 31 HP (or 33, with fcb).

I'm leaning toward either
STR: 14(16) DEX: 9 CON: 14 INT: 16 WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (putting +2 into STR)

OR
STR: 15 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 14(16) WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (putting +2 into INT)

I see your recommend to max CON in order to max tankiness...and I haven't played the class or seen it played so I'm sure there's a bunch I'm missing...but would you really bump CON higher for this build? More broadly, what overall 15pt buy might you consider? It's so hard for me to imagine a martial character with a 14 STR, which is I think the max I can get if I bump up CON...but maybe I'm thinking too much about Fighters and not understanding how different a Warder (or PoW in general) plays?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[Taveena]

Sorry to bug you, but is the Black Seraph information in the guide outdated? Black Seraph Onslaught is one of my favorite maneuvers, and I've had it confirmed as "Pounce, and you can attack every enemy you threaten while moving", rather than "Pounce, but split between multiple enemies".

EDIT: And Broken Blade still has the discipline weapon restriction. Are you going to be update at any point, or are you leaving it as is?

RE-EDIT: Okay, right. Rereading the maneuver I can see how you got confused because I actually made the same mistake. I asked a while ago, and the intention is that you may only make one attack on each ADDITIONAL target, thus why the first line still says 'full attack'.

[Nyaa]

15pt buy

Play a wizard or summoner.

Ahem. I'd probably put 5 points into str, con and int (making them 14), dump cha to 8 or 7 and increase wis and maybe dex to 12 with these points. Racial +2 goes to str.

Or use your second array, but put +2 into str.

There's a new thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?440952-Dreamscarred-press-Build-questions-thread) specifically for builds.

[upho]

Sorry to bug you, but is the Black Seraph information in the guide outdated? Black Seraph Onslaught is one of my favorite maneuvers, and I've had it confirmed as "Pounce, and you can attack every enemy you threaten while moving", rather than "Pounce, but split between multiple enemies".I take it you're actually talking about the 7th level Charge of the Ravager, not the 9th level Black Seraph Onslaught (which doesn't include any charging as far as I can tell)? Or has this been changed in some way by recent errata I somehow missed and that doesn't yet up show on d20pfsrd?


EDIT: And Broken Blade still has the discipline weapon restriction. Are you going to be update at any point, or are you leaving it as is?

RE-EDIT: Okay, right. Rereading the maneuver I can see how you got confused because I actually made the same mistake. I asked a while ago, and the intention is that you may only make one attack on each ADDITIONAL target, thus why the first line still says 'full attack'.Updates will happen once PoW:E has been released according to Elric's posts above.

[Vhaidara]

EDIT: And Broken Blade still has the discipline weapon restriction. Are you going to be update at any point, or are you leaving it as is?

I recall them saying that the restriction was removed, but it didn't make it into the PDF version. Same thing with Scarlet Throne only working with Einhander/Two Handing (though Scarlet Einhander still has the restriction, of course)

[Taveena]

I take it you're actually talking about the 7th level Charge of the Ravager, not the 9th level Black Seraph Onslaught (which doesn't include any charging as far as I can tell)? Or has this been changed in some way by recent errata I somehow missed and that doesn't yet up show on d20pfsrd?


No, you're right, I just... brainderped. Both being full attack high-levelled Black Seraph maneuvers. ><

[upho]

Ah, OK thanks. I was worried I was the one doing the brainderping, since that really seems to be the statistically far most prevalent case when somebody's saying something I don't follow... :smallredface:

[Andreaz]

Harbinger guide needs a severe update. The whole guide hinges on the character only ever investing in intelligence, but now that feature only applies to half attacks and damage, instead of a ton of things.
That changes the stats' weight and feat priorities a little, which also takes a little of the save based maneuvers' oomph.

[Vhaidara]

Elric mentioned he won't be updating these until the full release of PoW:E.

[Andreaz]

Makes sense. Just had to bring it up.

[Captain Morgan]

In lieu of the guides being updated, or perhaps to support that endeavor via comparing notes, what would be the most appropriate thread to discuss options for the released Harbinger? I've posted some general questions in a couple threads but there doesn't seem to be much talk going on about it.

[Nyaa]

In lieu of the guides being updated, or perhaps to support that endeavor via comparing notes, what would be the most appropriate thread to discuss options for the released Harbinger?

Probably this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?440952-Dreamscarred-press-Build-questions-thread).

[Qwertystop]

Quoting in from my post on the old Stalker thread:


A useful old feat you seem to have missed: Barroom Brawler gives any Combat feat you qualify for for a minute as a Move action once per day. This includes Extra Stalker Art, Advanced Study, Martial Training I, and possibly a higher Martial Training if you have the BAB and have gone farther down the line. Also the list of Rogue Talents via the relevant Stalker Art. In all that, there's got to be some useful-but-situational stuff that's good even if it only lasts a minute. Off the Rogue list, just from a quick glance down the first-party part of the list, I see Guileful Polyglot, Grig Jig, Esoteric Scholar, maybe Developed Poison Immunity to trick someone (in a "where's the poison" gambit like in Princess Bride)... The list of actual Stalker Arts useful for this is smaller, but maybe Obfuscation or Mind Bending. "All Combat feats" is a big enough list I'm not looking. Maneuvers might be useful in a situation where you want to get some ranged damage and aren't a specialist, or maybe something from out-of-class schools. Also Ninja Tricks - I can't see why you can't chain to that through Rogue Talents.

It's already a pretty versatile feat, but getting full access to four other sets and limited access to a fourth (out-of-class maneuvers) is a really big boost to it.

[Ancalidormis]

in your maneuver guide, you list Shards of Iron Strike as causing a stun effect, rather than a staggering effect. it would also lower it to probably blue, rather than purple.

[Ecliptic]

Are there any guides that hit on the piercing thunder, black seraph, silver crane, or tempest gale disciplines?

The rest seem to be covered here and there.

Thanks ;)

[Elricaltovilla]

Are there any guides that hit on the piercing thunder, black seraph, silver crane, or tempest gale disciplines?

The rest seem to be covered here and there.

Thanks ;)

In the very first post in this thread.

[Ecliptic]

In the very first post in this thread.

Ah thanks. I see it now... I hadn't noticed the first link because I was specifically looking at the various class guides:)

[Ecliptic]

Actually, even with that link, I still don't see guides for piercing thunder or tempest gale?

Could very well be missing something though. If so, apologies and thanks for the guides, in any case.

[Elricaltovilla]

Actually, even with that link, I still don't see guides for piercing thunder or tempest gale?

Could very well be missing something though. If so, apologies and thanks for the guides, in any case.

If you actually take the time to read the whole first post, you will see why that is the case.

[Elricaltovilla]

I finally have the time to update my guides, so that'll be a thing this week. As noted in my first post, there are large swathes of PoW material that I will not write a guide for (because I wrote the material itself) so those of you who care about PoW and PoW:E please step up and contribute to help make these guides the best they can be!

Also, if you haven't, check out Castilonium's Guide to the Zealot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505647-Unity-and-Determination-Castilonium%92s-guide-to-the-Path-of-War-Zealot&highlight=zealot) for an alternate take on the class that I think is excellent work.

[Elricaltovilla]

It's my thread so I get to double post. The disciplines have been updated in the Guide to Maneuvers and Initiating. I'll be propagating them to their respective class guides later today.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I noticed you're missing the nodachi in the two-handed lineup. It's statistically better than a falchion, and is in both the heavy blade and polearm weapon groups. Yes it's a giant katana, but a zweihander sentinel wearing O-Yoroi and using a nodachi is high up on my list of things I wanna play.

[Elricaltovilla]

I noticed you're missing the nodachi in the two-handed lineup. It's statistically better than a falchion, and is in both the heavy blade and polearm weapon groups. Yes it's a giant katana, but a zweihander sentinel wearing O-Yoroi and using a nodachi is high up on my list of things I wanna play.

I'm missing a lot of weapons. Fact is, when it comes to two-handed weapons, as long as you're meeting discipline weapon groups (and sometimes not even then) the choice of weapon makes little to no difference mechanically. Maybe a point or two of damage, unless you're CRIT fishing.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

But the nodachi is unique in that it is both a heavy blade AND a polearm, in addition to having d10 instead of 2d4. And it does both slashing and piercing. And, for some reason, it's cheaper. And it's a martial weapon. It counts as a discipline weapon for Piercing Thunder, which is one of those that requires a discipline weapon usually; it can be used to use that discipline while still using what's essentially a better falchion.

[Vortenger]

Thanks for all the hard work you've put in, Elric! You've had an immense impact on the way my friends and I enjoy the game. Moreover, thanks for coming back to this project!

[Castilonium]

Yay for updates! And thank you for plugging my guide :smallbiggrin:. Since the ratings in my guide are zealot-specific and quite different to yours as a result of the zealot's unique playstyle, please feel free to link my guide in your original post so that more people can see it and get more tailored info and a different perspective. If you don't want to, that's completely understandable.

I look forward to seeing the rest of your work!

[Elricaltovilla]

Harbinger class features and archetypes are up to date. Working on rating maneuvers for the harbinger.

Still don't have anyone to write up a Tempest Gale review for me.

[The Glyphstone]

The guide seems to still mention that Crimson Countess gains Fast Healing at level 15, but on PFSRD the Crimson Countess reportedly gains a fly speed in their blood form instead, along with counting as difficult terrain for any enemies inside the cloud (which would be a 75-ft radius sphere/pool). Is the SRD wrong, or did that detail get skipped over in the rewrite?

[upho]

Harbinger class features and archetypes are up to date. Working on rating maneuvers for the harbinger.Wohoo! Finally some action here! Keep up the great work, Elric!


Still don't have anyone to write up a Tempest Gale review for me.I might, since it seems I happen to have quite a bit of free time on my hands for a few weeks. Anyone has any specific guidelines/tips/wishes on how (and for which class(es)) I should do this?

[Sayt]

Harbinger class features and archetypes are up to date. Working on rating maneuvers for the harbinger.

Still don't have anyone to write up a Tempest Gale review for me.


Wohoo! Finally some action here! Keep up the great work, Elric!

I might, since it seems I happen to have quite a bit of free time on my hands for a few weeks. Anyone has any specific guidelines/tips/wishes on how (and for which class(es)) I should do this?

I may also have a crack at the Tempest gale myself.

And just one question: Does the Edgelord's "Let the Bodies hit the floor" obey the Conjuration (Teleportation) rules, as those specifically require teleported creatures to be placed on surfaces that can support them..

[Elricaltovilla]

I may also have a crack at the Tempest gale myself.

And just one question: Does the Edgelord's "Let the Bodies hit the floor" obey the Conjuration (Teleportation) rules, as those specifically require teleported creatures to be placed on surfaces that can support them..

It does not. Otherwise how could the bodies hit the floor?:smalltongue:

[Elricaltovilla]

Mystic has been updated with the appropriate class features, archetypes and maneuvers.

Lord Gareth, if you're reading this I hate you and your stupid "chance all the class features" archetype.:smalltongue:

[Nyaa]

Mystic has been updated with the appropriate class features, archetypes and maneuvers.

Blade meditation was nerfed from 1d6 per remaining animus to 1d6 + 1d6 per two points of remaining animus.

Candle Magic seems to be able to project one effect of each tier simultaneously.

[Sayt]

Mystic has been updated with the appropriate class features, archetypes and maneuvers.

You don't need spells to craft magic items, or for allies to provide them. You can take a +5 to the craft DC to do them without the spell ready.

[Elricaltovilla]

You don't need spells to craft magic items, or for allies to provide them. You can take a +5 to the craft DC to do them without the spell ready.

Yes, I know. But why spend the extra effort when you could spend quality alone time with the party's cute sorceress? :smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Mystic has been updated with the appropriate class features, archetypes and maneuvers.

Jade, if you're reading this I hate you and your stupid "chance all the class features" archetype.:smalltongue:

I prefer my handle online, if y'please.

Also! Your opener on Harbi still suggests that Accursed Will influences saves.

EDIT: Also you can have one candle magic effect of each level; one Votive, one Lantern, one Bonfire.

[Elricaltovilla]

My bad, I forgot. Good to know on the candle magic, it didn't seem to read that way to me. I'll fix it tomorrow, for now: Pokemon.

[Da Beast]

Do you plan on tackling the new Warlord material from PoWE soon? I'm making a desperado for a campaign I'll be playing in soon and I'd be curious to see your take on the new gambits and which gunslinger deeds are best for a desperado.

[Elricaltovilla]

Do you plan on tackling the new Warlord material from PoWE soon? I'm making a desperado for a campaign I'll be playing in soon and I'd be curious to see your take on the new gambits and which gunslinger deeds are best for a desperado.

How soon is soon? I haven't got a particular order I'm doing things in so depending on how soon you need to be ready I could work on the warlord next or you could make a thread and plug the community for build suggestions.

[Da Beast]

I'll probably be playing this character in 2 to 4 weeks but I can figure things out for myself if you want to get to other things first.

[Elricaltovilla]

I can get the warlord updated in that time.

EDIT: I can give you ratings on the deeds right now: Deadeye, Quick Clear, and Gunslinger's Initiative are the only ones worth taking. Everything else is basically worthless. If you have to get a 4th one, it'll be Lightning Reload, but you don't actually need it at all.

[Da Beast]

Keep in mind the desperado is specifically allowed to take deeds normally reserved for gunslnger archetypes. This would allow the musket master fast musket deed to get reloads on a two handed firearms down to a free action, various techslinger deeds might be useful depending on prevalence of advanced technology, mysterious stranger's focused aim could be good at low levels (although it regrettably competes for a swift action which the warlord has in short supply), and there's probably some other choice deeds that could come in handy.

[Elricaltovilla]

Reloading a musket as a free action can be done by 5th level thanks to alchemical cartridge + Rapid Reload + Fan the Hammer.

[Da Beast]

I forgot about alchemical cartridges. I suppose the musket master deed would at least save you some money and the other deeds I mentioned could still be useful.

[Elricaltovilla]

Made some updates to the warlord guide: added new gambits, presences and the desperado archetype.

[Fenryr]

Thanks for the hard work! :smallbiggrin:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

... Wait, so the Desperado only lets you cherry-pick deeds? I thought it granted you them as normal except as a gunslinger three levels lower, and at the levels specified, you chose (potentially archetype) deeds that functioned at your full level.

[Elricaltovilla]

... Wait, so the Desperado only lets you cherry-pick deeds? I thought it granted you them as normal except as a gunslinger three levels lower, and at the levels specified, you chose (potentially archetype) deeds that functioned at your full level.

From the text:



Desperados spend grit points to accomplish deeds. Most deeds grant the desperado some momentary bonus or effect, but there are some that provide longer lasting effects. Some deeds stay in effect as long as the desperado has at least 1 grit point. For the purposes of learning and performing deeds and for prerequisites, a desperado’s effective gunslinger level is equal to his class level –4. Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the appropriate amount of grit is spent to perform the deed. At 5th level and again at 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, and 15th levels, the desperado learns a deed that a gunslinger of his effective gunslinger level could learn.

This ability replaces dual tactical presence and warlord’s presence.


"A" means one. The upside is that you can learn deeds from gunslinger archetypes, but gunslinger archetype deeds are equally crap.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I gleaned that, but it seems to be written in a way that assumes the Gunslinger learns deeds like rogues learn rogue talents, when they automatically get batches at certain levels. I was looking at the part where it says "For the purposes of learning and performing deeds and for prerequisites, a desperado’s effective gunslinger level is equal to his class level –4." And that "At 5th level and again at 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, and 15th levels, the desperado learns a deed that a gunslinger of his effective gunslinger level could learn" meant that the desperado chose one to function at his actual warlord level.

I admit its a poor reading, but it's worded differently than gun archetypes usually do it. If I were writing it, I would have had it say something like, "At 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, and 15th level, a desperado may select a gunslinger deed to learn. This must be a deed a gunslinger of his level-3 would have access to, but may be from a gunslinger archetype."

Most gunslinger deeds aren't that good, but the thing which makes gunslingers interesting is that they get all of their deeds. You may not use them, in most situations, but you're not picking them individually. Granted, the class might be better if you did choose them and they were worth picking but he, better than the monk.

[Elricaltovilla]

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how gunslinger operates. The desperado operates the way it was written, and other classes have no bearing on that.

It's a "select a deed" system, that's how it's written. You pick one deed at each of those levels, and your effective gunslinger level is your Warlord level -4. There really isn't any other way to read what's written.

I know you guys like to propose wording changes to things, and they are usually appreciated, but this is not the thread to do it in. I would greatly appreciate it if we could keep this thread on the topic of the guides and their analyses.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Don't forget that Psionic deeds can be selected, for psionic characters, which by RAW Gunslingers don't seem to be able to get at all because they don't get to select deeds. So there's a little bit of give and take, though not necessarily all that much.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I would argue that yes, since you are literally getting things directly from another class, how the gunslinger operates is very important to how the desperado operates. Especially since it is very unlike how the gunslinger operates; I can't think of a single deed-using class/archetype that chooses a single deed, aside from the Amateur Gunslinger feat.


Don't forget that Psionic deeds can be selected, for psionic characters, which by RAW Gunslingers don't seem to be able to get at all because they don't get to select deeds. So there's a little bit of give and take, though not necessarily all that much.

I always thought gunslingers with the psionic subtype automatically got them.

[Elricaltovilla]

You are allowed to make whatever argument you want, but once again, please do not do it in this thread. This is not the place for discussion of wording except to establish it's RAW function, which in this case is clear.

[Ilorin Lorati]

I don't see Piercing Thunder in the Discipline guide at all, but it's not on the list of stuff you haven't looked over.

[Elricaltovilla]

Piercing Thunder is in a difficult place for me. Essentially, I can't decide if it crosses my threshold for having had too much of my personal input. My life would be easier if someone offered to step up and review it for me, but given that hasn't really happened for anything else I may have to bite the bullet whether I want to or not.

Edit: it isn't a list of stuff I haven't looked over. It's the list of stuff I won't look over because I wrote too much of it and therefore can't be a source of objective evaluation. It's an important distinction.

[Elricaltovilla]

Stalker Guide updated with new stalker arts and full list of written discipline guides. No new archetypes written up because I wrote the archetypes themselves.

If you want to thank me for all my hard work, please consider looking at the list of stuff in the first post, picking one of them and doing a writeup for me. It will be greatly appreciated!

[Sayt]

So, I've put together a guide for Tempest Gale (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jQRdELmj5HQDCDeAt5Z_18zs1-Mt-WigHKO5Qn5obmI/edit), you can comment in thread or in the document.

[Galacktic]

Stalker Guide updated with new stalker arts and full list of written discipline guides. No new archetypes written up because I wrote the archetypes themselves.

If you want to thank me for all my hard work, please consider looking at the list of stuff in the first post, picking one of them and doing a writeup for me. It will be greatly appreciated!

Really appreciate all the work you've done, and I'm in fact playing a Vigilante Stalker in a Forgotten Realms set game next week! After a bit of playing and tinkering with it, I'll write up a mini handbook for the archetype if you'd like that!

[Elricaltovilla]

I appreciate the help. Every little bit ends up being a big benefit. I hope you enjoy the archetype.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Path of War Stuff I Won't (or Didn't) Review:

Class Archetypes:
Vigilante-
Primal Disciple-
Monk of the Silver Fist-
Knight Disciple-
Ambush Hunter-
Brutal Slayer-

Class Templates:
Bushi-
Privateer-
Hussar-
Polymath-
Warpath Follower-

Disciplines:
Veiled Moon- Thank you Novawurmson!
Mithral Current- Thank you Keledrath!
Tempest Gale-
Sleeping Goddess-

Prestige Classes:
Landsknecht-
Phoenix Champion-

Man this makes me feel so bad. Because i love Path of War and just adore that one of the writers makes guides for it as well. So When i see you dont want/ can't write for some of the content i really want to help! But i am fairly sure that my grasp of Pathfinder power and therefore the usefullness of the various parts of PoW eludes me. So i kinda want to help you out, but i can't :s

Anyway, thanks for all the hard work Elricaltovilla! If i can help in any way please let us know, i think the community would do so gladly.

[Elricaltovilla]

I appreciate the support Swaoeaeieu. I think you'd be surprised at how easy it is to actually do a guide like this. Determining initial ratings isn't too difficult, it's the volume of material you have to sift through that is the real problem.

I take the objectivity of guides very seriously. I can't be an objective source of critique for anything I've written, by the very definition of objectivity. So my only choice is to turn to the community for help. If you want to help, then picking something on that list and writing a review for it is how. Or you can find useful feats and items to add to the list. Every little bit helps, the depth of material available in PF is seriously overwhelming sometimes.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Are you going to be covering the style feats?

[Swaoeaeieu]

I appreciate the support Swaoeaeieu. I think you'd be surprised at how easy it is to actually do a guide like this. Determining initial ratings isn't too difficult, it's the volume of material you have to sift through that is the real problem.

I take the objectivity of guides very seriously. I can't be an objective source of critique for anything I've written, by the very definition of objectivity. So my only choice is to turn to the community for help. If you want to help, then picking something on that list and writing a review for it is how. Or you can find useful feats and items to add to the list. Every little bit helps, the depth of material available in PF is seriously overwhelming sometimes.

If someone has some tips or how to's on how they go about writing a guide, like how to judge power of maneuvers or class features i would be happy to take something off the list for you. It might be time for me to stop mooching off the community and do something back :)

[Fenryr]

I will try to make somethin' 'bout Knight Disciple. Will send you a PM within these days.

[Fenryr]

Here it is!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0AjFQ-_II4bWJjh-nxYbGDYsYxNBlwdiWixCvRupis/edit?usp=sharing

Included Style Feats just for lulz. Starts at mid page 8. I request help to analyze Sleeping Godess Style 'cause 'm not very good with Psionic stuff. EDIT: Thanks Castilonium for the explanation.

Feel free to point any mistake, suggestion, change or whatever. Feedback is appreciated.

EDIT: Thanks a lot to Castilonium for the suggestions and corrections.

[Swaoeaeieu]

So i want to add to the collection of guides as mentioned before. Considdering doing one for the Landsknecht PrC since i love its flavor and historical background. Has anyone made a guide for other PrC's before?

And to make sure it is a quality guide, do i ask question for clarification here or in the PoW:E thread?

[Sayt]

Here it is!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0AjFQ-_II4bWJjh-nxYbGDYsYxNBlwdiWixCvRupis/edit?usp=sharing

Included Style Feats just for lulz. Starts at mid page 8. I request help to analyze Sleeping Godess Style 'cause 'm not very good with Psionic stuff. EDIT: Thanks Castilonium for the explanation.

Feel free to point any mistake, suggestion, change or whatever. Feedback is appreciated.

EDIT: Thanks a lot to Castilonium for the suggestions and corrections.

Guide looks great!

Regarding iron Tortoise Style, I' pretty sure that d8 up one is 2d6, not d10. Also, Iron Tortoise Snap is fantastic for Vanguard Commanders as well.

[Elricaltovilla]

So i want to add to the collection of guides as mentioned before. Considdering doing one for the Landsknecht PrC since i love its flavor and historical background. Has anyone made a guide for other PrC's before?

And to make sure it is a quality guide, do i ask question for clarification here or in the PoW:E thread?

DSP thread is probably better.

[Swaoeaeieu]

DSP thread is probably better.

gotcha, you will probably see me there. Do i make a thread for the guide or a googledoc i send to you Elric?

[Elricaltovilla]

gotcha, you will probably see me there. Do i make a thread for the guide or a googledoc i send to you Elric?

Most people have been sending me links to Google docs. If it's for material that needs to go into another guide (like for an archetype or class template) then I definitely prefer a google doc. Otherwise, do whatever is easier for you.

[Fenryr]

Guide looks great!

Regarding iron Tortoise Style, I' pretty sure that d8 up one is 2d6, not d10. Also, Iron Tortoise Snap is fantastic for Vanguard Commanders as well.

Fixed that, thanks. Made some changes as well.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I have read, reread and thought about The Landsknecht and put those thoughts into a document.
It has my impression on the Landsknechts features, somewhere in the coming week i will add possible entries and useable tactics with this cool class. but for now this is all i have. Please check if my assessment is right and if you have anything to add.

Also, if you have played this class or have a build using it, let me know :)

The Landsknecht! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rlg780SDhjDirhwrnF-wG6m5PySf7EcVoeHYbIj76uk/edit?usp=sharing)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I keep forgetting to point this out, but Mockery was changed between your guide and the full book being published. It's no longer a damage boost, but it lets you hit touch AC on a cursed enemy.

Edit: Additionally, you recommend Elan partially because you say they are aberrations, when they are humanoids with the aberrant subtype.

[ghanjrho]

I think the Monastic Training Stalker Art should go up at least one star, borderline two. Yeah, it was bad when stalkers got their first Art at level 3, but now they get an Art at level 1, as well. Yes, most monk weapons are garbage, but I've made good use of the shuriken on builds that use Steel Serpent or either ranged discipline.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It was pretty vital to a build I had, but it relied on a homebrew weapon for the setting I'm working on that was basically a wrist-mounted shortsword. Worked well of course with Mithral Current, of course, since the clockwork variant could be retracted as a free action with Quick Draw. Monastic Training was useful for grabbing the proficiency, since it was a monk weapon (since I wanted people to flurry with it), and IUS was just some extra goodness.

[Elricaltovilla]

Review of Unquiet Grave added to the Discipline Guide. Will propagate to all the other guides later when I feel like it.

[FabulousChester]

So, silly question: where might one find the Soul Hunter archetype?

[Vhaidara]

So, silly question: where might one find the Soul Hunter archetype?

In the original Path of War, after Judge
https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/path-of-war/classes/stalker/stalker-archetypes/soul-hunter-stalker-archetype
Also here

[FabulousChester]

Coolio. Thanks much!

[Elricaltovilla]

Updated warder guide with full maneuver list, fiendbound marauder and ordained defender archetypes.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I wouldn't rate Knowledge (Local) so low. Its one of the default knowledge-gathering skills, along with Diplomacy; and that's not even counting it's expanded use in the Spymaster's Handbook, where it is used to identify class features from non-spellcasting classes, combat feats, and non-metamagic or teamwork feats.

[Elricaltovilla]

I wouldn't rate Knowledge (Local) so low. Its one of the default knowledge-gathering skills, along with Diplomacy; and that's not even counting it's expanded use in the Spymaster's Handbook, where it is used to identify class features from non-spellcasting classes, combat feats, and non-metamagic or teamwork feats.

Comparing the two, knowledge local doesn't really do anything that can't be covered by diplomacy, and diplomacy has the benefit of being a discipline skill that is actually used by its discipline.

[Sayt]

Updated warder guide with full maneuver list, fiendbound marauder and ordained defender archetypes.

So, the wardermguide doesnt seem to be taking the old dogs amd new tricks chapter into account. Is this intentional, or an overeight?

[Elricaltovilla]

So, the wardermguide doesnt seem to be taking the old dogs amd new tricks chapter into account. Is this intentional, or an overeight?

I work long hours many days a week. I update what I can, when I can.

[Sayt]

I work long hours many days a week. I update what I can, when I can.

No problem, the guides are great, I was just wondering if it was put for another time or missed :)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Comparing the two, knowledge local doesn't really do anything that can't be covered by diplomacy, and diplomacy has the benefit of being a discipline skill that is actually used by its discipline.

When you have that discipline and haven't dumped Charisma into the ground. I was specifically referring to it on the Stalker page; someone with Golden Lion would definitely want to hedge in on that. But for your normal stalker, you can assume he doesn't usually have Golden Lion, even if he didn't dump charisma. And Local is a class skill by default. I would say it deserves better than a red.

[Elricaltovilla]

Added the guides to Knight Disciple and Landsknecht to the first post. Thanks again Fenryr and Swaoeaeieu!

[Swaoeaeieu]

Added the guides to Knight Disciple and Landsknecht to the first post. Thanks again Fenryr and Swaoeaeieu!

i should be updating mine sometime in the future, it is a little bare as it is. But you know how it goes with finding time :s

[Fenryr]

Added the guides to Knight Disciple and Landsknecht to the first post. Thanks again Fenryr and Swaoeaeieu!

If anyone finds a mistake or somethin' please let me know! Post here or send me a PM.

Will update a few things later.

[Elricaltovilla]

I am putting puts request for builds for PoW classes. If you have fun and interesting setups, feel free to share them and I'll add them to the appropriate guides this weekend.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I am putting puts request for builds for PoW classes. If you have fun and interesting setups, feel free to share them and I'll add them to the appropriate guides this weekend.

i took a look through some builds i have used in games, how detailed do you want them?


EDIT: one build for a level 8 warlord.
My first build for a PoW game, this was during the time PoW:E was stil in beta, so some of it is outdated.
She only made it to level 8 in the campaign. But inspired by the jumping charges from the final fantasy dragoons, the fighting style used in RWBY and a healty splash of just wanting to do cool anime nonsense, Yari was born. A Warlord that wields a polearm and a shield and was very fun to play, if not the most effective. She charges into battle with Piercing Thunder, bounces around with Scarlet Throne and wields her weapons like with precision as a dex based fighter. the build is as follows:



Human Warlord 8

Stats: Dex-Cha-Con-Int-Wis-Str

Gambits:
Acrobatic, Brave, Unbreakable, Victory

Traits: unorthodox method (golden lion for iron tortoise traded) and armor expert (you want a low ACP to finesse).

Feats:
Open minded, Weapon finesse, Deadly agility, Piranha stroke, Polearm dancer, precise strike, Martial charge, Pikeman's training, Primal fury style.

Open minded for more skillpoints to keep those discipline skills maxed. weapon finesse and polearm dancer, combined with pikeman to use a spear and shield pretty effectively without the Piercing thunder stance. Martial charge and primal fury style to boost charge attacks. Deadly agility and piranha strike are essential for her Dex focussed style.

Maneuvers where mostly Piercing Thunder, Scarlet Throne, a little Primal Fury and some Iron Tortoise. Giving her a devastating charge, mobility, good counters and some ranged (throwing shields maneuvers are so much fun!)

Gear: Glaive-guisarme. reach, decent damage and discipline weapon for PT.
Spiked mitrhal heavy shield. Spiked is to bump the damage when throwing or bashing. mithral to reduce ACP.
Mitrhal chain shirt. Best combination of AC, ACP and max DEX

[JonathanPDX]

Here's a build question for you guys: I want to make a strength-based martial character in the style of the anti-Paladin. Full plate, two-handed weapon, maneuvers focused on damage and perhaps curses or mobility as opposed to team support. I want to wade into melee and crush my enemies. I'm struggling to find the right build that fits without throwing away a ton of feats.

The Harbinger fits perfectly but I'm spending two feats on armor, or one if I go with the Omen Rider (even though mounted combat doesn't interest me at all and Ill Tidings is tough to give up.)
The Zweihander Sentinel Warder has the right proficiency but is too defensive.
A Warlord would fit but I'm spending a feat on heavy armor. Vanguard Commander Warlord gets the heavy armor but then spends too many resources on shield skills.
The Brutal Slayer Stalker has the right disciplines and strength focus but again, I'm investing two feats in armor and I'm not sure if the armor hinders any base Stalker abilities.
The Zealot has the right proficiency but the team-focused collective and Aid Other abilities feel at odds with the concept of a selfish, offensive-focused character.

Is there an obvious archetype or option I am missing? If not, what do you think is the best way to go?

Also, are there any class-based limitations on the Unorthodox Method trait? Could I take, say, Elemental Flux as a Harbinger or am I missing a rule that prevents it? Obviously I might lack the appropriate Animus or Power Points to augment maneuvers in a non-class discipline.

Thanks!

[Vhaidara]

Here's a build question for you guys: I want to make a strength-based martial character in the style of the anti-Paladin. Full plate, two-handed weapon, maneuvers focused on damage and perhaps curses or mobility as opposed to team support. I want to wade into melee and crush my enemies. I'm struggling to find the right build that fits without throwing away a ton of feats.

The Harbinger fits perfectly but I'm spending two feats on armor, or one if I go with the Omen Rider (even though mounted combat doesn't interest me at all and Ill Tidings is tough to give up.)
The Zweihander Sentinel Warder has the right proficiency but is too defensive.
A Warlord would fit but I'm spending a feat on heavy armor. Vanguard Commander Warlord gets the heavy armor but then spends too many resources on shield skills.
The Brutal Slayer Stalker has the right disciplines and strength focus but again, I'm investing two feats in armor and I'm not sure if the armor hinders any base Stalker abilities.
The Zealot has the right proficiency but the team-focused collective and Aid Other abilities feel at odds with the concept of a selfish, offensive-focused character.

Well, there are a few options
Zweihander Sentinel Warder is actually able to be a very aggressive class. Full BAB and a focus on two handed weapons with maneuver access is a really powerful combination.
Zealot can be done if you take an odd look at it. Namely, think of the zealot as berating his allies to stop ****ing up instead of supporting them. If they can't take the hits, he'll do it for them, and punch back harder, because he's STRONGER than them.
I do recommend against a heavy armor brutal slayer, one of their biggest upsides is using Str in place of Dex for AC, which is at odds with heavy armor
You could also go with a 2/3 initiatior, like Myrmidon Fighter, and trait/tradition into Seraph/Razor
Another 2/3 option would be to take an Aegis, go for the Juggernaut Astral Suit, and use your customizations for Seraph/Razor.


Also, are there any class-based limitations on the Unorthodox Method trait? Could I take, say, Elemental Flux as a Harbinger or am I missing a rule that prevents it? Obviously I might lack the appropriate Animus or Power Points to augment maneuvers in a non-class discipline.

Nope, there are no class based limits to discipline access

[Fenryr]

Builds.



Moult
NE Medium Outsider (native)
Tiefling Asura-Spawn, Soul Hunter Stalker 9, Lords of the Wheel Tradition
Init +3 (+4/+2)

--
DEFENSE
--

AC 27, touch 18, flat-footed 20 (+4/+4); 7 armor, 5 Dex, 2 natural armor, 2 dodge, 1 deflection; 4 or 4 depending on stance
HP 8d8+17; Fort 6, Ref 10 (+4), Will 12; spend a Ki point as Immediate to get +4

--
OFFENSE
--

30 ft speed
Melee +12, Quarterstaff MW (d6+5); Ranged +12, +1 Composite Longbow (d8+1)

--
STATISTICS
--

15 Point Buy

Str 11, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10 including point increase of 4th and 8th; including wondrous items
Base Atk +6/+1; CMB +7; CMD 24 (+4/+4)

--
FEATS AND TRAITS
--

1 Sin Eater, 3 Discipline Expertise, 5 Quick Draw, 7 Dark Authority, 9 Mixed Combat
Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility with Quarterstaff and Bite (Stalker Art)
Point-blank Shot/Precise Shot Longbow and Dagger(Stalkert Art)
Lurker in Darkness (Tradition)

Friendless (Tiefling) and Unorthodox Method (Tempest Gale)

--
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--

Stalker Arts: Sniper’s Tools, Killer’s Implements, Combat Precognition, Evasion (Favored Class 4/4 times), Advanced Study (Favored Class 4/4 times)

Ki Pool: 10
Soulburning +3d6


--
EQUIPMENT
--

Gear: +1 Elven Chain, Quarterstaff MW Darkwood, +1 Composite longbow MW Darkwood, Handy Haversack Bag, 20 arrows, 5 Daggers; Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Vest of Resistance, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, - 5

36.5/38 lb Light load

Inside Handy Haversack Bag: 80 arrows, bedroll, 4 Trail Rations, 2 Waterskin, Healer's Satchel

561 gp remaining

--
SKILL BONUS
--

Acrobatics +14
Autohypnosis +13
Bluff +8
Climb +2
Craft +4
Escape Artist +15
Heal +15 (+17 with Healing Kit)
Perception +15
Sense Motive +13
Sleight of Hands +15
Spellcraft +10
Stealth +17 (+23 with Stance)

--
MANEUVERS
--

Maneuvers Known 14
Maneuvers Readied 7
Stances Known 4

Disciplines: Riven Hourglass (Martial Tradition), Tempest Gale (Trait), Steel Serpent, Thrashing Dragon, Cursed Razor, Veiled Moon

Maneuvers: Clockwatcher, Disarming Shot, Minute Hand, Slipstream Strike, Temporal Burn, Cursed Fate, Resonance Strike, Time Skitter, Battering Gale, Sting of the Asp, Temporal Body Adjustment, Iron Wind, Ethereal Reminiscence, Warp Worm, Time-thief's Talons (Advanced Study), Piercing Gale (Advanced Study)

Stances: Leaping Spirit Dance, Body of the Night Stance, Riven Hourglass Stance, Stance of the Ether Gate Stance

--
RACE
--

Tiefling Standard Racial Traits: Scaled Skin, Skilled, Maw or Claw, Darkvision, Prehensile Tail.





Limdis Randiriel

LG Medium Elf (humanoid)
Elf, Paladin Knight Disciple 6, The Scales of Mourning Tradition
Init +3(+4)

--
DEFENSE
--

AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+2); 6 armor, 3 shield, 3 Dex, 1 deflection; +2 depending on stance; +2 vs undeads
HP 6d10+12
Fort 10, Ref 9 (+2), Will 9 (+6 vs fear, +2 vs Mind affecting); +2 vs undead abilities

--
OFFENSE
--

20 ft.
Melee +10, +1 Shortsword (d6+2)
Ranged +10, Composite Longbow MW (d8)


--
STATISTICS
--

15 Point Buy

Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16 including point increase from 4th and wondrous items

--
FEATS
--

1 Weapon Finesse, 3 Martial Power, 5 Blood of Heroes

--
TRAITS
--

Combat Training
Sound of Mind

--
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--

Aura of Good
Mark of Censure: DR 3/-, 2/day
Crusader's Training: Know Thine Enemy, Righteous Sanctuary
Guardian's Shield: 12 HP, 6/day, 3 rounds
Divine Grace
Aura of Courage
Divine Health
Merciful Shield: Shaken, Diseased
Empowered Healing


--
EQUIPMENT
--

Breastplate MW 30 lb - 350 gp
+1 Heavy Mithral Shield MW - 7 lb - 2020 gp
MW Short Sword -2 lb - 310 gp
Backpack MW - 4 lb - 50 gp
Headband of alluring charisma +2 - 4,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 - 2,000 gp
2 scrolls Restoration, Lesser - 50 gp
+1 Corset of Resistance - 1,000 gp
Ioun torch - 75 gp
Bedroll (0.5) - 5 lb

48/50 lb Light load

644 gp remaining

--
SKILL RANKS: 24
--

Diplomacy 6
Knowledge (nobility) 1
Knowledge (religion) 1
Knowledge (nature) 1
Knowledge (planes) 1
Perception 6
Sense motive 3
Spellcraft 3
Stealth 2


--
SKILL BONUS
--

Diplomacy 12
Knowledge (nobility) 4
Knowledge (religion) 6 (+3 to identify chaotic and/or evil creatures)
Knowledge (nature) 4 (+3 to identify chaotic and/or evil creatures)
Knowledge (planes) 6 (+3 to identify chaotic and/or evil creatures)
Perception 11
Sense motive 6
Spellcraft 6
Stealth 6

--
MANEUVERS
--

Irton Tortoise, Unquiet Grave, and Silver Crane.

Maneuvers Known 6
Maneuvers Readied 4
Stances Known 2


Thirsting Axe Strike, Enduring Shell, Enduring Crane Strike, Enraging Strike, Throwing Shell, Rattling Skeleton Parry, Oaken Shield
Silver Crane Waltz, Eyes of the Crane

--
RACE
--

Keen Senses
Fey Thoughts
Low-Light Vision
Memories Beyond Death

[Castilonium]

Here's a build question for you guys: I want to make a strength-based martial character in the style of the anti-Paladin. Full plate, two-handed weapon, maneuvers focused on damage and perhaps curses or mobility as opposed to team support. I want to wade into melee and crush my enemies. I'm struggling to find the right build that fits without throwing away a ton of feats.

The Harbinger fits perfectly but I'm spending two feats on armor, or one if I go with the Omen Rider (even though mounted combat doesn't interest me at all and Ill Tidings is tough to give up.)
The Zweihander Sentinel Warder has the right proficiency but is too defensive.
A Warlord would fit but I'm spending a feat on heavy armor. Vanguard Commander Warlord gets the heavy armor but then spends too many resources on shield skills.
The Brutal Slayer Stalker has the right disciplines and strength focus but again, I'm investing two feats in armor and I'm not sure if the armor hinders any base Stalker abilities.
The Zealot has the right proficiency but the team-focused collective and Aid Other abilities feel at odds with the concept of a selfish, offensive-focused character.

Is there an obvious archetype or option I am missing? If not, what do you think is the best way to go?

Also, are there any class-based limitations on the Unorthodox Method trait? Could I take, say, Elemental Flux as a Harbinger or am I missing a rule that prevents it? Obviously I might lack the appropriate Animus or Power Points to augment maneuvers in a non-class discipline.

Thanks!

Another vote for Zealot. Just think of your team-supporting abilities as incidental rather than active. You're not willfully buffing your allies' attacks with Zeal, granting them maneuvers with Echoes of Steel, or soaking their damage with Martyrdom. You're just such an inspirational, terrifying badass that your allies can't help but be impressed and bolstered whenever you're around, and feel compelled to copy your maneuvers. Stick with Black Seraph, Cursed Razor, and Primal Fury. Use Aid Another on yourself to buff your own attacks. Pick the Destruction mission to plow through DR and turn your attacks into lines and cones. You can use your best strike and boost every round because you can refresh your maneuvers with a move action, something no other class can do.

Regular Zealot is fine, or you could pick the Void Prophet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/zealot/void-prophet-zealot-archetype/) archetype. It lets you force enemies into your collective and automatically debuff them. It's much more offensive and less supportive than regular Zealots, but you can't refresh your maneuvers as easily.

[Elricaltovilla]

My recommendation is Ordained Defender Zweihander Sentinel Warder. Ordained Defender is WIS based, but it also gets access to inquisitions or blessings which can tune up your evil flavor. Free access (via swap) into Black Seraph if you're evil aligned, and then you have a trait or tradition available to pick up Cursed Razor. You could also spend your trait/tradition (whichever didn't go to CR) on Eternal Guardian, which has more curse effects as well as a nasty punishment theme.

With all the AoOs you can throw around, you won't just be brutalizing enemies on your turn, you'll be making the feel the pain and terror of your wrath even on your turn. You'll have high damage potential, great debuffs and plenty of utility and punishment options thanks to your maneuvers and class features.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

We have someone playing that combination in our game (though he picked up Mithral Current because he wanted Iajutsu and the heavy armor), and he's doing pretty well.

I have a question: I want to play a class that can utilize Sleeping Goddess, but I don't want to play a Zealot; I'd rather play something wisdom-based. I've narrowed down my choices to either Pathwalker->Awakened Blade (and just suck up the redundant powers and embrace the craziness of the combined recovery method of getting back maneuvers and psionic focus), or make a Mystic and pick up the Awakened Animus feat. Downside of that is that I don't know if that can actually make it work and have enough to meaningfully augment the SG maneuvers, and I'd be pretty shoehorned into a Dex build.

[Galacktic]

We have someone playing that combination in our game (though he picked up Mithral Current because he wanted Iajutsu and the heavy armor), and he's doing pretty well.

I have a question: I want to play a class that can utilize Sleeping Goddess, but I don't want to play a Zealot; I'd rather play something wisdom-based. I've narrowed down my choices to either Pathwalker->Awakened Blade (and just suck up the redundant powers and embrace the craziness of the combined recovery method of getting back maneuvers and psionic focus), or make a Mystic and pick up the Awakened Animus feat. Downside of that is that I don't know if that can actually make it work and have enough to meaningfully augment the SG maneuvers, and I'd be pretty shoehorned into a Dex build.

A War Soul Soulknife works preeettttyyyy damned well for this. Only 6th level progression, but there are a few new PRCs for Soulknife that can advance that to 9th! Primarch is a personal favorite. And you can be 100% wisdom based due to their blade skills.

[Elricaltovilla]

A War Soul Soulknife works preeettttyyyy damned well for this. Only 6th level progression, but there are a few new PRCs for Soulknife that can advance that to 9th! Primarch is a personal favorite. And you can be 100% wisdom based due to their blade skills.

Yeah, war soul was the first thing that leapt to my mind too. They're very solid on their own but become amazing with just a little support.

[Xaragos]

Excellent job on this. Thank you for putting this together.

Do you think you can add in a color code for each of the maneuver trees overall? IE which maneuver lines you think are the strongest overall, not just the individual viability of the maneuvers.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

A War Soul Soulknife works preeettttyyyy damned well for this. Only 6th level progression, but there are a few new PRCs for Soulknife that can advance that to 9th! Primarch is a personal favorite. And you can be 100% wisdom based due to their blade skills.

I haven't really looked at the Soulknife, to be honest, though I was considering it among the options to go into Awakened Blade, and since Sleeping Goddess actually has some boosts that combo with them, though ultimately decided against it because I'm a sucker for gishes. I'll see what I can do to pick up the Augmented series.

But, in the meantime, does anyone think a Mystic could use PP (from SG itself and FCB from a psionic race, I've been leaning towards Elan myself) and animus to effectively use Sleeping Goddess?

[Elricaltovilla]

Excellent job on this. Thank you for putting this together.

Do you think you can add in a color code for each of the maneuver trees overall? IE which maneuver lines you think are the strongest overall, not just the individual viability of the maneuvers.

You're welcome. I'm not going to color code the disciplines as a whole. Doing so with anything approaching accuracy would be nearly impossible given the variety of maneuvers available, the wide differences between Discipline themes and focuses, and the variety of roles, builds and interests that each discipline can fulfill or can be fulfilled by any PoW class or Archetype.

It also goes against the spirit of PoW and PoW:E and our philosophy of minimizing bad options. In any set there will be better or worse choices, but in terms of playability PoW and PoW:E strive to bring as many good options forward as possible, and I think that they largely succeed in that endeavor. Rating disciplines as a whole would, aside from being inherently innacurate, discourage people from selecting huge swathes of viable, flavorful and fun options for what would ultimately be arbitrary reasons.

[Elricaltovilla]

Added builds that were submitted as well as some of my own (still working on those, more to come:smalltongue:). If you've got builds you want to share, feel free to submit them here. Please consider the amount of space your build writeup takes up however, as I don't want the builds to get too long.

[Elricaltovilla]

I've got a challenge for you all. I have a build stub I'm working on in the mystic guide called "The Wizard," I would love your assistance finding spells that can be imitated through the use of Mystic or Animus Adept class features (excluding scroll/wand usage, that's too easy) and maneuvers. I'll post what I have so far below:


The Wizard
Disclaimer: This build is flavor focused. That doesn’t mean it’s lacking power by any stretch of the word, but it has a very unusual goal: To spoof playing as the party wizard without taking a single level of a spellcasting class. Fortunately, the Mystic has a plethora of class features that can mimic spells, the ability to craft as good as a wizard and with the help of Animus Adept, even more glyphs that are on par with spells. There is a lot of flexibility in the build and quite a bit of tinkering to be done if you have access to some extra material from other Dreamscarred Press products.

Mystic 5/Animus Adept 5/Mystic 10
Race: Human
Ability Scores: WIS>DEX>CON>INT>STR>CHA
Feats:
BF1- Weapon Finesse
1- Animus Healing
BF2- Deadly Agility
3- Scribe Scroll
5- Craft Wand
7- Craft Wondrous Item
9- Extra Granted Maneuver
11- Discipline Focus (Elemental Flux) OR Ability Focus (Martial Glyphs)
BF12- Advanced Study
13-
15-
17-
BF17-
19-

Maneuvers: For this build you’ll want access to the following disciplines: Cursed Razor, Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass and Veiled Moon. Trait or Tradition into Cursed Razor as that’s the only one you don’t have native access to. If you really want to, you can try to pick up Black Seraph or Silver Crane as well, but you’ll have a hard time finding room for their maneuvers.

The difficult part of maneuver selection for The Wizard is that the build is open to interpretation. Whatever maneuvers you can combine with stances or boosts or other effects to spoof casting spells are things you should consider strongly. You will still mostly be a blaster (just claim you’re an evocation specialist), but you have a massive number of buffing options available through your Glyphs, Martial Glyphs, and Maneuvers, with quite a few debuffs and other things to throw around. Some suggestions for spells that you can mimic are:

Scorching Ray (With various metamagics attached)
Chilling Touch
Haste
Inflict Wounds
Fireball
Stoneskin
Protection From Evil
Shield
Mage Armor

[The Insaniac]

Thanks for the guides. I'm going to try to do one for Piercing Thunder. I think you misread and misrated Void Seraph Strike, though. It is really random but the 50% miss chance applies to the target's attacks not to attacks made against the target.


While being devoured by these shadowy birds, the target suffers a 50% miss chance on any attacks he makes due to his senses being obscured by the flapping wings and horrible pain he is enduring.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I've got a challenge for you all. I have a build stub I'm working on in the mystic guide called "The Wizard," I would love your assistance finding spells that can be imitated through the use of Mystic or Animus Adept class features (excluding scroll/wand usage, that's too easy) and maneuvers. I'll post what I have so far below:


The Wizard
Disclaimer: This build is flavor focused. That doesn’t mean it’s lacking power by any stretch of the word, but it has a very unusual goal: To spoof playing as the party wizard without taking a single level of a spellcasting class. Fortunately, the Mystic has a plethora of class features that can mimic spells, the ability to craft as good as a wizard and with the help of Animus Adept, even more glyphs that are on par with spells. There is a lot of flexibility in the build and quite a bit of tinkering to be done if you have access to some extra material from other Dreamscarred Press products.

Mystic 5/Animus Adept 5/Mystic 10
Race: Human
Ability Scores: WIS>DEX>CON>INT>STR>CHA
Feats:
BF1- Weapon Finesse
1- Animus Healing
BF2- Deadly Agility
3- Scribe Scroll
5- Craft Wand
7- Craft Wondrous Item
9- Extra Granted Maneuver
11- Discipline Focus (Elemental Flux) OR Ability Focus (Martial Glyphs)
BF12- Advanced Study
13-
15-
17-
BF17-
19-

Maneuvers: For this build you’ll want access to the following disciplines: Cursed Razor, Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass and Veiled Moon. Trait or Tradition into Cursed Razor as that’s the only one you don’t have native access to. If you really want to, you can try to pick up Black Seraph or Silver Crane as well, but you’ll have a hard time finding room for their maneuvers.

The difficult part of maneuver selection for The Wizard is that the build is open to interpretation. Whatever maneuvers you can combine with stances or boosts or other effects to spoof casting spells are things you should consider strongly. You will still mostly be a blaster (just claim you’re an evocation specialist), but you have a massive number of buffing options available through your Glyphs, Martial Glyphs, and Maneuvers, with quite a few debuffs and other things to throw around. Some suggestions for spells that you can mimic are:

Scorching Ray (With various metamagics attached)
Chilling Touch
Haste
Inflict Wounds
Fireball
Stoneskin
Protection From Evil
Shield
Mage Armor



speaking of Mystic builds, i used a (IMO) pretty cool, low gear build for a gunsmoke mystic that reached 11 or 12 gunshots in one round. I can write it up later today after work if you need one of those for the builds section.

[Elricaltovilla]

speaking of Mystic builds, i used a (IMO) pretty cool, low gear build for a gunsmoke mystic that reached 11 or 12 gunshots in one round. I can write it up later today after work if you need one of those for the builds section.

I would be happy to put it in my guide.

[upho]

Here's Eddie "Pincerhand", a truly nasty (in every sense of the word) grappling and demoralization focused Fiendbound Marauder and Ordained Defender based example build for the warder guide! He's a bit of a cross-over kitchen thing, being served on a generous foundation of hearty Tetori monk and topped with a splash of raging hot Primal Disciple barbarian. But I still think Eddie very much fits in a warder cook book class guide and I hope people will enjoy the mixed crunch and flavor as much as I do.

Since this write-up is very long and detailed, including quite a bit of fluff as well as explanations of the crunchy bits (I had fun making this), I suggest you simply link to this post. I can of course also provide a short blurb to go with that, and/or a highly condensed summary if you like.

I'd be grateful for any comments/suggestions/critique/praise!


http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/v1490778013/Eddie_pic_n4zxpz.jpg
No, you don't wanna push this any further, kid. Believe me.

Eddie is intended to showcase some of the rather unique melee control and debuff potential the Fiendbound Marauder warder archetype has, and especially some of the grapple and demoralization related feats and multiclass options which IMO have both fluff and crunch that go particularly well with the archetype. He is also intended to be an example of a warder based build fully playable as a PC in a real game. This means I've aimed to give him quite a few tools useful in a majority of adventuring situations (both in and outside of combat) and a good deal of survivability, using options which I believe also support an interesting, coherent and unique flavor.

In addition, Eddie is intended to be a plug-'n'-play NPC, with a personal history which should make him easy to use exactly as written in a Golarion game, as a villain or a potential ally of the PCs.

It should be noted that Eddie is here described as a neutral evil worshiper of Zon-Kuthon, partially because I wanted to give an example of how I believe these two more controversial character elements can be expressed without being disruptive in an otherwise non-evil party and campaign, and partially simply because I think they go so damn well with the original fluff of the other options and makes for an interesting backstory in the Golarion setting. Regardless, no options are tied to the Golarion setting, and by simply replacing the [evil] Shadow Raptor Swarm, the build can instead have a neutral alignment.

CAUTION! If played according to RAW, Eddie's demoralization and grapple combos can be too strong for some games, and/or behave in a "binary" fashion potentially difficult for a GM to adapt the opposition to. I've therefore included a few simple house rule suggestions (see Combined Mechanics spoiler) for making them less so yet still well worth the considerable investments.


The following details Eddie while he is raging, in the Black Seraph Style and Stance of the Thunderbrand stances, and affected by Time Skitter, enlarge person and long arm (cast from his wands by party member).

Oni-Spawn Tiefling Monk (Tetori) 4/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder, Ordained Defender) 7/Barbarian (Primal Disciple) 2
NE Huge male humanoid outsider (akashic*, native, orc)
*Strictly RAW, this should be the human subtype, but since Eddie is a tiefling of alqarn descent, his Pass for Human ART has been slightly altered.

Initiative +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Perception +24 (+26 vs chaotic or evil outsiders)
Auras Aegis 10 ft. (allies gain +1 morale to AC and Will), Black Seraph Annihilation 30 ft. (foes lose immunity to fear, those immune to mind-affecting gain +5 resistance vs fear)


DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 12, flat-footed 24; +3 profane vs scared* (12 armor, 1 natural, 4 shield, 1 deflection, 5 dodge, -2 size, -2 rage)
HP 167 (8+9d12+3d8 hit dice, 78 Con, 7 favored class)
Fort +21, Ref +10, Will +19; +2 vs enchantment; +3 profane vs scared*
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 15, electricity 5, fire 5; uncanny dodge
Weakness damned (unaffected by breath of life and raise dead, non-evil caster must make DC 25 CL check to bring Eddie back from death)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE (all values including Power Attack)
Speed 40 ft.
Melee pain's grip or fear's grip +22/+22/+17/+12 (4d6+23 plus demoralize, grab and the dark mark),
or unarmed strike +21/+21/+16/+11 (4d6+22 plus demoralize and the dark mark)
Space 15 ft., Reach 25 ft., 40 ft. with fiend's grips (40 ft., 55 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks Cornugon Smash (demoralize vs foe damaged by melee, Intimidate +36), grab (CMB +40, hit effects as fiend's grip)

Special Abilities
Adaptive Tactics Eddie may replace up to 4 readied maneuvers as full-round action
Attacks of Opportunity Eddie can make 6 AoOs/round, and may replace normal attack with a standard action combat maneuver
Counter-Grapple Eddie can make an AoO against a foe without the Greater Grapple feat which attempts to grapple him
Demoralization foes in 30 ft. of Eddie lose immunity to fear, multiple demoralize successes increase fear condition instead of duration
Fiend's Grip as a free action, Eddie may manifest his fiend's grips, and these are treated as ghost touch weapons
Graceful Grappler Eddie takes no penalties when grappling or pinning a foe, and can still make AoOs
Ki Pool 7 ki points/day, Eddie can spend 1 point as swift action for +20 ft. speed or +4 dodge to AC for 1 round
Rage during 14 rounds/day, Eddie gains +6 morale to Str and Con, and he is not fatigued when the rage ends
Raging Grappler initiating a grapple has effects as if Eddie hit with a fiend's grip, and Eddie may knock a grappled foe prone when maintaining
Spell-Like Ability alter self 1/day, 13 minutes, CL 13
The Dark Mark up to 8/day when damaging a foe, Eddie may curse and mark the foe for 4 rounds (-4 to attack other than Eddie, +13% ASF)
Vicious Stomp Eddie may make an unarmed strike as an AoO against an enemy falling prone adjacent to him

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 12, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's GlareBS1, Primal Warrior StancePF3, Stance of the ThunderbrandPT5 active
Boosts Time SkitterRH3 active, 4 rounds remaining
Counters Intruder’s EndEG3, Shadow PinCR5, Vengeful RiposteBS4
Strikes Cornered Frenzy StrikePF5
Recovery full-round: recovers 4 maneuvers, defensive focus for +15' reach, CMD 54 vs Acrobatics checks to avoid AoO
Known Fear the ReaperEG2, Make them HumbleFE4, Shadow Raptor SwarmBS6, Witchfinder's BrandCR4

Barbarian Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 7, Wisdom
Stances Iron Pikeman’s AttitudePT1
Boosts Leaping DragonTD1, Minute HandRH1
Strikes Panthera on the HuntPF1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains 1 round of rage
Known Encouraging RoarGL1


STATISTICS
Str 33, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 5
Bab +12; CMB +29 (using fiend's grip +38, grapple +44) as Gargantuan; CMD 43 (46 vs grapple) as Gargantuan

Feats Black Seraph AnnihilationI, Black Seraph Style, Black Seraph's Malevolence, Combat ReflexesB, Cornugon SmashI, Equipment Trick (rope)I, Fiendskin, Haft StrikeB, Improved GrappleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Mighty FrameF, Power Attack, Seize the OpportunityB, Soulless Gaze, Stunning FistB, Stunning PinB, Vicious StompI, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)I
BBonus feat granted by class feature or martial tradition. IFeat granted by magic item (training weapon or ioun stone). FFeat from Bloodforge.

Trained Skills Bluff +18H, Disguise +10 (+20 using alter self), Intimidate +36, Knowledge (martial) +5, Knowledge (planes) +11R, Knowledge (religion) +5R, Perception +24R, Sense Motive +19
HHeresy Inquisition up to 4/day, Eddie may roll a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Stealth check twice and take best result
RReverents of the Lance allegiance benefit +2 to Knowledge and Perception checks related to outsiders with chaotic or evil subtype

Languages Abyssal, Common, Infernal
Alternate Racial Traits alqarn heritage (Large size), Pass for Alqarn*; SQ powerful build, strong neutral and evil aura
Traits Mixed Blood (orc), Practiced Initiator (warder), Unorthodox Method (Riven Hourglass); Drawback Foul Brand (hand)
Martial Tradition Reverents of the Lance (Piercing Thunder)
*This is a slightly tweaked Pass for Human ART because Eddie is of alqarn, not human, descent. No build options are dependent on this tweak.

Gear pain's grip (+1 training (Equipment Trick (rope), Vicious Stomp) Gargantuan gauntlet), fear's grip (+1 training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Cornugon Smash) Gargantuan gauntlet), angered1 furious amulet of mighty fists, dwarven boulder helmet, barbazu beard, +3 spiked hellknight plate of +1 natural armor and protection2, +3 buckler, belt (+4 Str, +2 Con)2, "piercings of the midnight inquisition" (headband slot; +4 Wisdom; +2 Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive, saves)2, bracelet of charms3 with 5 charms of anger3, cracked dusty rose prism, cracked opalescent white pyramid (spiked gauntlet) in wayfinder, cracked pale green prism (2), wand of enlarge person and long arm, lots of rope, approx. 500 gp (remainder of 140,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Item from Bloodforge.
2 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "generic" bonuses to (any) slotted item).
3 Item from Steelforge.


ABILITY SCORES 20-point buy
Str 33 16 base, 2 race, 3 level, 4 enhancement (belt), 6 morale (4 rage, 2 angered weapon), 2 size enlarge person
Dex 10 12 base, -2 size enlarge person
Con 22 14 base, 2 enhancement (belt), 6 morale (4 rage, 2 angered weapon)
Int 12 12 base
Wis 20 14 base, 2 race, 4 enhancement (piercings)
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race


DEFENSE VALUES
AC 29, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (10 + 12 armor (+3 plate), 1 natural enhancement (+1 plate of natural armor), 4 shield (+3 buckler), 1 deflection (+1 plate of protection), 5 dodge (haste (Time Skitter), Stance of the Thunderbrand), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Fort +21 (6 Con, 3 barbarian, 4 monk, 5 warder, 2 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism))
Ref +10 (4 monk, 2 warder, 2 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter))
Will +19 (5 Wis, 4 monk, 5 warder, 2 resistance (piercings), 1 competence (pale green prism), 2 rage)

CMD
Base CMD 43 (10 + 12 bab, 13 Str, 1 deflection (+1 armor of protection), 5 dodge (haste (Time Skitter), Stance of the Thunderbrand), 4 size (Large race, Mighty Frame, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Grapple 46 (43 base CMD, 1 graceful grappler (monk levels as bab), 2 Improved Grapple)


OFFENSE VALUES
Reach 25 ft. / 40 ft. with fiend's grips (15 Huge size (Large race, enlarge person), 5 Stance of the Thunderbrand, 5 long arm / 15 Huge reach weapon)

Attack and Damage
Fiend's Grips Attack Bonus +22 (12 bab, 11 Str, 1 Mixed Blood, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste (Time Skitter), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage, -4 Power Attack)
Unarmed Strike Attack Bonus +20 (22 as fiend's grips above except: -1 no Weapon Focus, -1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Damage Bonus +23 (unarmed strike +22) (11 Str, 1 Mixed Blood, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 8 Power Attack (-1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Damage Die 4d6 (1d8 Medium size fiend's grip/4th level monk -> 2d6 Large size (race size) -> 3d6 Huge size (Mighty Frame) -> 4d6 Gargantuan size (enlarge person))

CMB
Base CMB +29 (12 bab, 1 maneuver training (monk levels as bab), 11 Str, 1 Mixed Blood, 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste (Time Skitter), 4 size (Large race, Mighty Frame, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Using Fiend's Grips +38 (29 base CMB, 5 Wis (canny pugilist), 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon))
Grapple +44 (38 as fiend's grips, 4 grab, 2 Improved Grapple)


MISCELLANEOUS VALUES
Initiative +1 (1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))

Trained Skills
Total Skill Ranks 65 (13 levels x (4 class, 1 Int))
Bluff +18 (10 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis (Heresy Inquisition))
Disguise +10 (+20 using alter self) (10 ranks, 3 class skill, -3 Cha, 2 race, -2 Foul Brand (10 alter self bonus))
Intimidate +36 (11 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis (Heresy Inquisition), 11 Str (Intimidating Prowess), 2 race, 2 Soulless Gaze, 2 competence (piercings))
Knowledge (martial) +5 (1 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int)
Knowledge (planes) +11 (+13 concerning chaotic or evil outsiders) (10 ranks, 1 Int (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Knowledge (religion) +5 (+7 concerning chaotic or evil outsiders) (1 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Perception +24 (+26 vs chaotic or evil outsiders) (13 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 competence (piercings) (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Sense Motive +19 (9 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 competence (piercings))




Level
Class
Features
Feats retrained@ level intoR


1
Monk 1
Graceful grappler (level as bab for grapple), stunning fist, unarmed strike
Improved GrappleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Stunning FistB


2
Monk 2
Evasion
Stunning PinB


3
Monk 3
Fast movement, maneuver training, still mind
Mighty Frame


4
Monk 4
Counter-grapple, graceful grappler (no grapple penalties), ki pool (magic)
Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)I


5
Warder 1
Aura, defensive focus, fiend’s grip
Combat ReflexesB, Seize the Opportunity11


6
Warder 2
The dark mark
Haft StrikeB


7
Warder 3
Divine gift (heresy inquisition)
Black Seraph Style, Equipment Trick (rope)I


8
Warder 4
Canny Pugilist
-


9
Warder 5
Improved fiend’s grip (free action, ghost touch)
Cornugon SmashI, Power Attack


10
Barbarian 1
Rage
-


11
Barbarian 2
Ancestral style, rage power (raging grappler), uncanny dodge
Black Seraph AnnihilationI, Black Seraph's MalevolenceR, Fiendskin (cold), Seize the OpportunityB


12
Warder 6
Aegis +1 (10 ft.)
-


13
Warder 7
Adaptive tactics
Soulless Gaze, Vicious StompI




FLUFF
Eddie "Pincerhand" is a former Silent Enforcer and elite soldier of Nidal and Zon-Kuthon, now an adventurer and demon hunter in a self-imposed exile after the catastrophic failure of his first military mission.

Though he initially only accepted to join the small group of odd individuals that saved his life out of necessity, Eddie has come to value and even respect the undeniably useful talents, dedication and loyalty each of them have shown during their many adventures together. And despite the annoying personalities and laughably naive beliefs his rag-tag flock of eccentric outcasts frequently displays, they are now nevertheless his flock, an idea which has him lash out with lethal force against anyone or anything that would so much as think of trying to steal a member of his flock from him, and has him protecting them with the near suicidal zeal and fury of a tigress protecting her cubs.

The traumatic experiences of Eddie's failed military mission against demonic forces, along with his subsequent travels outside of Nidal, have of course changed both his view of the world and his personal religious beliefs. And most importantly, he is convinced his lingering questions and doubts about his faith have actually been answered by the Midnight Lord himself, his strangely alien deep rasping whispers as loud as thunder in Eddie's ears when he finally dared pray again for the first time since leaving Nidal. But what surprised Eddie the most was not hearing the Dark Prince speak to him, but that the deafening words made so much sense, that they contained such simple yet elegant and suitably razor sharp logic.

Regardless of the objective truth of the matter - if such a thing even exists - Eddie was forever changed by what he believes to have been a most personal and private conversation with his nihilistic god. And ever since that conversation, he has not seen any reason to actively seek to provoke, judge or hurt those who have not attempted to hurt him, while he also no longer sees any reason for not giving himself completely to the pure sadistic ecstasy he feels while "sharing the pleasures of pain" with his true enemies. It is as if the voice of the fanatic fiend in him has found a way to speak in unison with the voice of the more compassionate humanoid as well as that of the pragmatic skeptic in him, two voices now finally allowed to be heard again after having been suppressed during decades of intense religious indoctrination.

Despite his newly found inner balance and redefined relationship with Zon-Kuthon, most people still find Eddie an ugly creature with a humorless and decidedly gloomy view of the world and its inhabitants. But the truth is Eddie often tries to maintain this illusion of lacking social skills, making it easier for him to hide the fact that he is actually a highly observant listener and an accomplished liar, trained by some of Golarion's greatest masters of interrogation and subtle deception. In sharp contrast to his dour outlook and seeming disinterest in people, Eddie suddenly comes to life when expecting violence, his eyes gaining a fiendish red glow and his wide mouth a cruel smile of sadistic glee, the tip of his tongue playing across his lips in excitement. And even hardened war veterans who have been the unfortunate witnesses of Eddies behavior in combat are often profoundly shaken by the experience, wishing they could forget the deeply disturbing memories of already incapacitated enemies screaming in pain and horror while being slowly mutilated by Eddie's enormous serrated pincers, not to mention the expression of pure bliss on his bloodstained face.

Though Eddie is even larger than normal rhinofolk, his relatively slim and long-limbed proportions, pale skin and normally hunched posture would almost make him appear old and frail next to his stockier relatives, when in truth his wiry compact muscles gives him enormous strength. And in the eyes of humans and most other civilized races, Eddie is a towering barrel-chested giant, standing 9 feet tall and weighing approximately 550 pounds if measured in his bare skin and with his back uncharacteristically straight. (While equipped and enlarged, as shown above, Eddie is 18 feet tall and weighs approximately 4,750 pounds.)

Eddie was born almost 80 years ago near the Brazen Peaks in the Mwangi Expanse, but was stolen from his small tribe of alqarn by slavers, sold in Katapesh, brought across the Inner Sea and then sold yet again while still a young child. In what would prove to be one of the rare lucky events in Eddie's life, he ended up as the property of a surprisingly kind and caring middle-aged Chelish merchant noblewoman. In her service, Eddie spent the following four decades in relative freedom, growing up content and mostly happy, sheltered and blissfully ignorant of much of the prejudice, fear and hatred the civilized world has in store for those born different. But Eddie was in for a rude awakening when his elderly mistress unexpectedly died during a return journey from Korvosa, apparently while she had been peacefully asleep in her cabin as her ship slowly crept south across Conqueror's Bay. The superstitious ship crew almost immediately started eyeing the shy and oddly looking Eddie with suspicion, and not more than a day after the death of his beloved mistress, the cold hearted captain set course for the closest harbor and then abandoned the shocked Eddie crying on the docks of Nisroch.

Afraid, cold and hungry without so much as a copper to buy food Eddie paced the oddly clean and eerily silent streets of the city, unsuccessfully pleading for help from the few and clearly disapproving citizens he met. Within hours, he was spotted by a pair of patrolling Silent Enforcers who immediately saw him guilty of loitering and begging. But before they had managed to beat Eddie to death, his whimpering pleading and the fine quality of his clothes led them to conclude that he was a slave recently and illegally abandoned by his owner, and seemingly still a child despite his size, and so they decided to bring their strange find before the Silent One to be considered as a recruit. That same night, Eddie was forced into the sinister training and indoctrination program of the Silent Shroud, his voice burned from his throat and the chained skull of Zon-Kuthon burned into the back of his hand soon thereafter.

Some thirty years later, Eddie was fully grown and transformed into a loyal servant of Zon-Kuthon and the Shrouded One, and his imposing size and brutally effective signature wrestling fighting style had made him feared on the streets of Nisroch as well as the cause of much obvious envy from fellow Silent Enforcers. And one day, word of Eddie's exotic appearance and martial prowess also happened to reach the ears of one of Nidal's generals visiting the city. Intrigued, the general decided to find out how much truth there was to the rumors about this odd Silent Enforcer, and arranged for a couple of seasoned soldiers in his retinue to fight Eddie, promising his mysterious leader a hefty compensation should Eddie be killed. After seeing Eddie swiftly incapacitating the two fully armed soldiers with his bare hands and then starting to calmly torture his helpless foes by breaking fingers and crushing toes, the general seemed pleased and ordered an agent of the Umbral Court to test Eddie for special training in Ridwan, claiming such skills would better serve Nidal's interests if properly cultivated and directed by the military.

Not more than a year later, Eddie had already caught up with the senior students at Schola Cruciamenia*, Ridwan's most elite military academy, his fiendish heritage giving him an uncanny knack for quickly mastering the mercilessly cruel and frightening martial disciplines and techniques favored by ordained champions of the Midnight Lord. During this year, Eddie was also for the first time in his life not only allowed but encouraged to explore and develop the supernatural powers hiding in his rare mixed blood. Through hard and persistent work he was finally able to will his body into the shape of any humanoid for several minutes, and to stretch his arms and transform his gauntleted hands into terrifying barbed pincer-like weapons. His unique talents and dedication were eventually also recognized and rewarded by his tutors, first by allowing him to receive the blessings of a Zon-Kuthon high priest to restore his voice, and then by declaring him ready for the final lethal exams years before any of the equally junior students would be considered.

But despite his many successes, Eddie never made any friends and remained shy and awkward in social situations where he was expected to be himself. And perhaps more importantly, even after being subjected to decades of constant and calculated political and religious indoctrination by his masters and tutors, Eddie was still harboring doubts about the superiority of Nidal and its forces, as well as that of certain aspects of Zon-Kuthon's teachings.

*This name was made up by me 'cause I couldn't find any names of Nidalese martial art/military schools in Paizo material. It's Latin and roughly translates into "school/elite troop of soldiers/sect (of) pain/torment/torture". Seemed fitting... :smalltongue:


The following describes Eddie's two most noteworthy mechanical combos (aside from the more obvious ones providing size increases and purely numerical bonuses). These combos are typically available in every fight, and are of course accompanied by synergizing maneuvers which further increase Eddie's capabilities as a control and debuff focused defender.

Painfull Pacifying Pincerhand
Seize the Opportunity is a fantastically powerful feat, and Eddie uses it with grapple related options it to immediately reposition and tie up enemies hit by his a melee attacks.

1. Fiend's Grip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype) Most of the melee attacks Eddie makes have the grab ability, allowing him to start a grapple as a free action if he hits, and he may grapple incorporeal creatures thanks to the ghost touch quality of his fiend's grips.
2. Graceful Grappler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) When grappled, Eddie doesn't suffer the penalties to attack or AC, and can still make AoOs.
3. Grapple RAW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple) "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."
4. Stance of the Thunderbrand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/piercing-thunder-maneuvers#TOC-Stance-of-the-Thunderbrand) The automatic movement of an opponent Eddie grapples (as per point #3) allows him to make an AoO.
5. Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) Eddie can attempt to maintain a grapple when the grappled opponent provokes an AoO, and he may thus immediately both start and maintain a grapple when he hits a non-adjacent opponent with any kind of melee attack made with either of his fiend's grips.
6. Raging Grappler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/raging-grappler-ex/) Eddie deals damage and triggers other hit effects (demoralization etc) also when he initiates a grapple, meaning a single melee attack hit will often have the same effects as that of two hits. In addition, whenever Eddie maintains a grapple (such as per point #5), he may give his opponent and/or himself the prone condition. Notably, this is not a trip attempt, and thus bypasses all those pesky immunities or bonuses opponents often have against that combat maneuver (flight, weird physiology, no/several legs etc).
7. Vicious Stomp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vicious-stomp-combat/) When an opponent falls prone adjacent to Eddie (such as per point #6), he can make an unarmed strike AoO against that opponent. Since Eddie can also manifest and stop manifesting his fiend's grips as free actions, he can usually make this unarmed strike with his normal gauntleted hand, gaining the associated bonuses (typically as per unarmed strike detailed in the Offense section in the build summary).
8. Equipment Trick (rope) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat#TOC-Rope-Tricks) Eddie only takes a –5 penalty to his grapple check when attempting to tie up an opponent he grapples.

Soulless Seraph Smash
Seems practicing scary faces in front of a mirror, cultivating relationships with certain individuals in the "underworld", and just being a cold-hearted sadist in general definitely has its merits... (Now doesn't that send a wonderfully cynical moral message? :smallamused: It's practically giving all the self-righteous goody-two-shoes hero schmucks a big fat EVILTM finger!)

1. Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat/) Eddie can make a demoralization attempt as a free action against an enemy he damages with a melee attack while using Power Attack. It's worth noting that a grapple check is a melee attack affected by Power Attack.
2. Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation/) When Eddie successful demoralizes a target already suffering the effects of his previous demoralization, the fear condition worsens (up to panicked from three successful attempts), instead of increasing the shaken condition by another round.
3. Black Seraph Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/black-seraph-style/) Eddie gains scaling profane bonuses to AC and saves against the attacks and effects made by enemies suffering from a fear condition.
4. Black Seraph Annihilation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/black-seraph-style/) All enemies within 30 ft. of Eddie lose their immunity to fear, although those immune to mind-affecting gain a +5 resistance bonus to saves against fear. So yeah, undead, constructs, aberrations...
5. Heresy Inquisition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/inquisitions/inquistions-paizo/heresy-inquisition/) Eddie has a pathetic Cha score, so luckily this allows him to add his Wis instead of his Cha to Intimidate (and Bluff) checks.
6. Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat-final/) Lets Eddie add his Str mod to Intimidate checks, in addition to his Wis mod. And since Eddie is pretty darn strong and wise, he'll easily succeed on those checks against virtually every enemy he's likely to face.


Combined Result
Together with the Eddie's other options, the two above combos result in the following whenever Eddie hits a non-adjacent foe with a melee attack using his fiend's grip and Power Attack, regardless of whether that melee attack was a made as part of a full attack, charge, martial maneuver, AoO, etc. (Action/event with increased indent is dependent on the last action/event with less indent being successful, including average damage (but not crit damage) and typical results of other effects.)

1. Damage the target takes 37 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

2. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make a demoralize attempt (Intimidate +36 vs DC = 10 + target's HD + target's Wis mod): the target is shaken for at least 1 round, and Eddie gains +3 profane to AC and saves vs target's attacks/effects.
3. Grab granted by fiend's grips - Eddie makes grapple check to initiate a grapple as a free action (CMB +40): Eddie and the target are grappling, but Eddie takes no penalties from the condition and can still make AoOs.

4. Damage granted by Raging Grappler - the target takes another 37 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

5. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is frightened for at least 1 round.
6. Grapple Move the grappled enemy is moved to a free space adjacent to Eddie.

7. AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - the target's movement provokes an AoO from Eddie

8. Tie Up granted by Seize the Opportunity and Equipment Trick (rope) - Eddie may make a grapple check to maintain the grapple and immediately tie up the target instead of making a normal AoO (CMB +40: -5 to Tie Up grappled, +5 to maintain grapple): the target is tied up and must make a DC 64 grapple or Escape Artist check to free itself, and Eddie is no longer grappling the target (once the triggered actions/events #9 - 14 have been resolved).

9. Damage granted by fiend's grips - the target takes another 37 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

10. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is panicked for at least 1 round.
11. Prone granted by Raging Grappler - Eddie knocks the target prone.

12. AoO granted by Vicious Stomp - the adjacent target falling prone provokes an unarmed strike AoO from Eddie

13. Damage granted by unarmed strike - the target takes another 36 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

14. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is panicked for at least +1 additional round.

Net result (assuming all the above succeeds): the target takes 147 points of damage and is prone, tied up and panicked for at the very least 2 rounds (usually more than 6 rounds), and Eddie gains a +3 profane to AC and saves vs the target's attacks/effects while the target remains affected by a fear condition.

Eddie can normally perform the above combo on up to three enemies within his 40 ft. fiend's grip reach on his turn, or on up to two enemies triggering AoOs outside his own turn. If he activates his Intruder’s End counter, this increases to up to five and three enemies, respectively. Note also that the second AoO granted by Vicious Stomp (points #12 - 14 above) isn't needed in order for the target to end up both tied up and panicked - excluding this AoO will simply reduce the average damage dealt to 111 points and the number of additional rounds the target remains panicked caused by the final demoralization attempt. So if facing several enemies, Eddie simply cuts the combo short to save up on AoOs and thus be able to perform it against additional enemies each round (up to four enemies with a full attack during his turn, plus an additional three enemies outside his turn, if using Intruder’s End).

[Sayt]

Here's Eddie "Pincerhand", a truly nasty (in every sense of the word) grappling and demoralization focused Fiendbound Marauder and Ordained Defender based example build for the warder guide! He's a bit of a cross-over kitchen thing, being served on a generous foundation of hearty Tetori monk and topped with a splash of raging hot Primal Disciple barbarian. But I still think Eddie very much fits in a warder cook book class guide and I hope people will enjoy the mixed crunch and flavor as much as I do.

Since this write-up is very long and detailed, including quite a bit of fluff as well as explanations of the crunchy bits (I had fun making this), I suggest you simply link to this post. I can of course also provide a short blurb to go with that, and/or a highly condensed summary if you like.

I'd be grateful for any comments/suggestions/critique/praise!

Eddie is intended to showcase some of the rather unique melee control and debuff potential the Fiendbound Marauder warder archetype has, and especially some of the grapple and demoralization related feats and multiclass options which IMO have both fluff and crunch that go particularly well with the archetype. He is also intended to be an example of a warder based build fully playable as a PC in a real game. This means I've aimed to give him quite a few tools useful in a majority of adventuring situations (both in and outside of combat) and a good deal of survivability, using options which I believe also support an interesting, coherent and unique flavor.

In addition, Eddie is intended to be a plug-'n'-play NPC, with a personal history which should make him easy to use exactly as written in a Golarion game, as a villain or a potential ally of the PCs.

It should be noted that Eddie is here described as a neutral evil worshiper of Zon-Kuthon, partially because I wanted to give an example of how I believe these two more controversial character elements can be expressed without being disruptive in an otherwise non-evil party and campaign, and partially simply because I think they go so damn well with the original fluff of the other options and makes for an interesting backstory in the Golarion setting. Regardless, no options are tied to the Golarion setting, and by simply replacing the [evil] Shadow Raptor Swarm, the build can instead have a neutral alignment.

CAUTION! If played according to RAW, Eddie's demoralization and grapple combos can be too strong for some games, and/or behave in a "binary" fashion potentially difficult for a GM to adapt the opposition to. I've therefore included a few simple house rule suggestions (see Combined Mechanics spoiler) for making them less so yet still well worth the considerable investments.


The following details Eddie while he is raging, in the Black Seraph Style and Stance of the Thunderbrand stances, and affected by Time Skitter, enlarge person and long arm (cast from his wands by party member).

Oni-Spawn Tiefling Monk (Tetori) 4/Barbarian (Primal Disciple) 2/Warder (Fiendbound Marauder, Ordained Defender) 7
NE Huge male humanoid outsider (akashic*, native, orc)
*Strictly RAW, this should be the human subtype, but since Eddie is a tiefling of alqarn descent, his Pass for Human ART has been slightly altered for a better fit.

Initiative +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Perception +24 (+26 vs chaotic or evil outsiders)
Auras Aegis 10 ft. (allies gain +1 morale to AC and Will), Black Seraph Annihilation 30 ft. (foes lose immunity to fear, those immune to mind-affecting gain +5 resistance vs fear)


DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 12, flat-footed 24; +3 profane vs scared* (12 armor, 1 natural, 4 shield, 1 deflection, 5 dodge, -2 size, -2 rage)
HP 167 (8+9d12+3d8 hit dice, 78 Con, 7 favored class)
Fort +21, Ref +10, Will +19; +2 vs enchantment; +3 profane vs scared*
Defensive Abilities evasion; Resist cold 15, electricity 5, fire 5; uncanny dodge
Weakness damned (unaffected by breath of life and raise dead, non-evil caster must make DC 25 CL check to bring Eddie back from death)
*scared = shaken, frightened, panicked or cowering enemy


OFFENSE (all values including Power Attack)
Speed 40 ft.
Melee pain's grip or fear's grip +22/+22/+17/+12 (4d6+22 plus demoralize, grab and the dark mark),
or unarmed strike +21/+21/+16/+11 (4d6+21 plus demoralize and the dark mark)
Space 15 ft., Reach 25 ft., 40 ft. with fiend's grips (40 ft., 55 ft. while using defensive focus)
Special Attacks Cornugon Smash (demoralize vs foe damaged by melee, Intimidate +35), grab (CMB +40, hit effects as fiend's grip)

Special Abilities
Adaptive Tactics Eddie may replace up to 4 readied maneuvers as full-round action
Attacks of Opportunity Eddie can make 6 AoOs/round, and may replace normal attack with a standard action combat maneuver
Counter-Grapple Eddie can make an AoO against a foe without the Greater Grapple feat which attempts to grapple him
Demoralization foes in 30 ft. of Eddie lose immunity to fear, multiple demoralize successes increase fear condition instead of duration
Fiend's Grip as a free action, Eddie may manifest his fiend's grips, and these are treated as ghost touch weapons
Graceful Grappler Eddie takes no penalties when grappling or pinning a foe, and can still make AoOs
Ki Pool 7 ki points/day, Eddie can spend 1 point as swift action for +20 ft. speed or +4 dodge to AC for 1 round
Rage during 14 rounds/day, Eddie gains +6 morale to Str and Con, and he is not fatigued when the rage ends
Raging Grappler initiating a grapple has effects as if Eddie hit with a fiend's grip, and Eddie may knock a grappled foe prone when maintaining
Spell-Like Ability alter self 1/day, 13 minutes, CL 13
The Dark Mark up to 8/day when damaging a foe, Eddie may curse and mark the foe for 4 rounds (-4 to attack other than Eddie, +13% ASF)
Vicious Stomp Eddie may make an unarmed strike as an AoO against an enemy falling prone adjacent to him

Warder Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 12, Wisdom
Stances Black Seraph's GlareBS1, Primal Warrior StancePF3, Stance of the ThunderbrandPT5 active
Boosts Time SkitterRH3 active, 3 rounds remaining
Counters Intruder’s EndEG3, Shadow PinCR5, Vengeful RiposteBS4
Strikes Cornered Frenzy StrikePF5
Recovery full-round: recovers 4 maneuvers, defensive focus for +15' reach, CMD 54 vs Acrobatics checks to avoid AoO
Known Fear the ReaperEG2, Make them HumbleFE4, Shadow Raptor SwarmBS6, Witchfinder's BrandCR4

Barbarian Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 7, Wisdom
Stances Iron Pikeman’s AttitudePT1
Boosts Leaping DragonTD1, Minute HandRH1
Strikes Panthera on the HuntPF1
Recovery full-round: recovers 5 maneuvers and regains 1 round of rage
Known Encouraging RoarGL1


STATISTICS
Str 33, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 5
Bab +12; CMB +29 (using fiend's grip +38, grapple +44) as Gargantuan; CMD 43 (46 vs grapple) as Gargantuan

Feats Black Seraph AnnihilationI, Black Seraph Style, Black Seraph's Malevolence, Combat ReflexesB, Cornugon SmashI, Equipment Trick (rope)I, Fiendskin, Haft StrikeB, Improved GrappleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Mighty FrameF, Power Attack, Seize the OpportunityB, Soulless Gaze, Stunning FistB, Stunning PinB, Vicious StompI, Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)I
BBonus feat granted by class feature or martial tradition. IFeat granted by magic item (training weapon or ioun stone). FFeat from Bloodforge.

Trained Skills Bluff +18H, Disguise +10 (+20 using alter self), Intimidate +35, Knowledge (martial) +5, Knowledge (planes) +11R, Knowledge (religion) +5R, Perception +24R, Sense Motive +19
HHeresy Inquisition up to 4/day, Eddie may roll a Bluff, Diplomacy, or Stealth check twice and take best result
RReverents of the Lance allegiance benefit +2 to Knowledge and Perception checks related to outsiders with chaotic or evil subtype

Languages Abyssal, Common, Infernal
Alternate Racial Traits alqarn heritage (Large size), Pass for Alqarn*; SQ powerful build, strong lawful and evil aura
Traits Mixed Blood (orc), Practiced Initiator (warder), Unorthodox Method (Riven Hourglass); Drawback Foul Brand (hand)
Martial Tradition Reverents of the Lance (Piercing Thunder)
*This is a slight tweak of the Pass for Human ART, since Eddie is a tiefling of alqarn descent, not human.

Gear pain's grip (+1 training (Equipment Trick (rope), Vicious Stomp) Gargantuan gauntlet), fear's grip (+1 training (Black Seraph Annihilation, Cornugon Smash) Gargantuan gauntlet), angered1 furious amulet of mighty fists, dwarven boulder helmet, barbazu beard, +3 spiked hellknight plate of +1 natural armor and protection2, +3 buckler, belt (+4 Str, +2 Con)2, "piercings of the midnight inquisition" (headband slot; +4 Wisdom; +2 Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive, saves)2, bracelet of charms3 with 5 charms of anger3, cracked dusty rose prism, cracked opalescent white pyramid (spiked gauntlet) in wayfinder, cracked pale green prism (2), wand of enlarge person and long arm, lots of rope, approx. 500 gp (remainder of 140,000 gp standard WBL)
1 Item from Bloodforge.
2 Uses variant item rules from Steelforge (no stacking costs of "generic" bonuses to (any) slotted item).
3 Item from Steelforge.


ABILITY SCORES 20-point buy
Str 33 16 base, 2 race, 3 level, 4 enhancement (belt), 6 morale (4 rage, 2 angered weapon), 2 size enlarge person
Dex 10 12 base, -2 size enlarge person
Con 22 14 base, 2 enhancement (belt), 6 morale (4 rage, 2 angered weapon)
Int 12 12 base
Wis 20 14 base, 2 race, 4 enhancement (piercings)
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race


DEFENSE VALUES
AC 29, touch 12, flat-footed 24 (10 + 12 armor (+3 plate), 1 natural enhancement (+1 plate of natural armor), 4 shield (+3 buckler), 1 deflection (+1 plate of protection), 5 dodge (haste (Time Skitter), Stance of the Thunderbrand), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Fort +21 (6 Con, 3 barbarian, 4 monk, 5 warder, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism))
Ref +10 (4 monk, 2 warder, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 dodge haste (Time Skitter))
Will +19 (5 Wis, 4 monk, 5 warder, 2 resistance (pauldrons), 1 competence (pale green prism), 2 rage)

CMD
Base CMD 43 (10 + 12 bab, 13 Str, 1 deflection (+1 armor of protection), 5 dodge (haste (Time Skitter), Stance of the Thunderbrand), 4 size (Large race, Mighty Frame, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Grapple 46 (43 base CMD, 1 graceful grappler (monk levels as bab), 2 Improved Grapple)


OFFENSE VALUES
Reach 20 ft. / 35 ft. with fiend's grips (15 Huge size (Large race, enlarge person), 5 living bastion / 15 Huge reach weapon)

Attack and Damage
Fiend's Grips Attack Bonus +22 (12 bab, 11 Str, 1 Mixed Blood, 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste (Time Skitter), -2 size (Large race, enlarge person), -2 rage, -4 Power Attack)
Unarmed Strike Attack Bonus +20 (22 as fiend's grips above except: -1 no Weapon Focus, -1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Damage Bonus +22 (unarmed strike +21) (11 Str, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon), 8 Power Attack (-1 enhancement (only furious weapon))
Damage Die 4d6 (1d8 Medium size fiend's grip/4th level monk -> 2d6 Large size (race size) -> 3d6 Huge size (Mighty Frame) -> 4d6 Gargantuan size (enlarge person))

CMB
Base CMB +29 (12 bab, 1 maneuver training (monk levels as bab), 11 Str, 1 Mixed Blood, 1 competence (pale green prism), 1 haste (Time Skitter), 4 size (Large race, Mighty Frame, enlarge person), -2 rage)
Using Fiend's Grips +38 (29 base CMB, 5 Wis (canny pugilist), 1 Weapon Focus, 3 enhancement (+1 furious weapon))
Grapple +44 (38 as fiend's grips, 4 grab, 2 Improved Grapple)


MISCELLANEOUS VALUES
Initiative +1 (1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))

Trained Skills
Total Skill Ranks 65 (13 levels x (4 class, 1 Int))
Bluff +18 (10 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis (Heresy Inquisition))
Disguise +10 (+20 using alter self) (10 ranks, 3 class skill, -3 Cha, 2 race, -2 Foul Brand (10 alter self bonus))
Intimidate +35 (11 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis (Heresy Inquisition), 11 Str (Intimidating Prowess), 2 race, 2 competence (piercings))
Knowledge (martial) +5 (1 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int)
Knowledge (planes) +11 (+13 concerning chaotic or evil outsiders) +4 (10 ranks, 1 Int (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Knowledge (religion) +5 (+7 concerning chaotic or evil outsiders) +4 (1 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 Int (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Perception +24 (+26 vs chaotic or evil outsiders) (13 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 competence (piercings) (2 Reverents of the Lance allegiance benefit))
Sense Motive +19 (9 ranks, 3 class skill, 5 Wis, 2 competence (piercings))




Level
Class
Features
Feats retrained@ level intoR


1
Monk 1
Graceful grappler (level as bab for grapple), stunning fist, unarmed strike
Improved GrappleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Stunning FistB


2
Monk 2
Evasion
Stunning PinB


3
Monk 3
Fast movement, maneuver training, still mind
Mighty Frame


4
Monk 4
Counter-grapple, graceful grappler (no grapple penalties), ki pool (magic)
Weapon Focus (spiked gauntlet)I


5
Warder 1
Aura, defensive focus, fiend’s grip
Combat ReflexesB, Seize the Opportunity11


6
Warder 2
The dark mark
Haft StrikeB


7
Warder 3
Divine gift (heresy inquisition)
Black Seraph Style, Equipment Trick (rope)I


8
Warder 4
Canny Pugilist
-


9
Warder 5
Improved fiend’s grip (free action, ghost touch)
Cornugon SmashI, Power Attack


10
Barbarian 1
-
-


11
Barbarian 2
Ancestral style, rage power (raging grappler), uncanny dodge
Black Seraph AnnihilationI, Black Seraph's MalevolenceR, Fiendskin (cold), Seize the OpportunityB


12
Warder 6
Aegis +1 (10 ft.)
-


13
Warder 7
Adaptive tactics
Soulless Gaze, Vicious StompI




FLUFF
Eddie "Pincerhand" is a former Silent Enforcer and elite soldier of Nidal and Zon-Kuthon, now an adventurer and demon hunter in a self-imposed exile after the catastrophic failure of his first military mission.

Though he initially only accepted to join the small group of odd individuals that saved his life out of necessity, Eddie has come to value and even respect the undeniably useful talents, dedication and loyalty each of them have shown during their many adventures together. And despite the annoying personalities and laughably naive beliefs his rag-tag flock of eccentric outcasts frequently displays, they are now nevertheless his flock, an idea which has him lash out with lethal force against anyone or anything that would so much as think of trying to steal a member of his flock from him, and has him protecting them with the near suicidal zeal and fury of a tigress protecting her cubs.

The traumatic experiences of Eddie's failed military mission against demonic forces, along with his subsequent travels outside of Nidal, have of course changed both his view of the world and his personal religious beliefs. And most importantly, he is convinced his lingering questions and doubts about his faith have actually been answered by the Midnight Lord himself, his strangely alien deep rasping whispers as loud as thunder in Eddie's ears when he finally dared pray again for the first time since leaving Nidal. But what surprised Eddie the most was not hearing the Dark Prince speak to him, but that the deafening words made so much sense, that they contained such simple yet elegant and suitably razor sharp logic.

Regardless of the objective truth of the matter - if such a thing even exists - Eddie was forever changed by what he believes to have been a most personal and private conversation with his nihilistic god. And ever since that conversation, he has not seen any reason to actively seek to provoke, judge or hurt those who have not attempted to hurt him, while he also no longer sees any reason for not giving himself completely to the pure sadistic ecstasy he feels while "sharing the pleasures of pain" with his true enemies. It is as if the voice of the fanatic fiend in him has found a way to speak in unison with the voice of the more compassionate humanoid as well as that of the pragmatic skeptic in him, two voices now finally allowed to be heard again after having been suppressed during decades of intense religious indoctrination.

Despite his newly found inner balance and redefined relationship with Zon-Kuthon, most people still find Eddie an ugly creature with a humorless and decidedly gloomy view of the world and its inhabitants. But the truth is Eddie often tries to maintain this illusion of lacking social skills, making it easier for him to hide the fact that he is actually a highly observant listener and an accomplished liar, trained by some of Golarion's greatest masters of interrogation and subtle deception. In sharp contrast to his dour outlook and seeming disinterest in people, Eddie suddenly comes to life when expecting violence, his eyes gaining a fiendish red glow and his wide mouth a cruel smile of sadistic glee, the tip of his tongue playing across his lips in excitement. And even hardened war veterans who have been the unfortunate witnesses of Eddies behavior in combat are often profoundly shaken by the experience, wishing they could forget the deeply disturbing memories of already incapacitated enemies screaming in pain and horror while being slowly mutilated by Eddie's enormous serrated pincers, not to mention the expression of pure bliss on his bloodstained face.

Though Eddie is even larger than normal rhinofolk, his relatively slim and long-limbed proportions, pale skin and normally hunched posture would almost make him appear old and frail next to his stockier relatives, when in truth his wiry compact muscles gives him enormous strength. And in the eyes of humans and most other civilized races, Eddie is a towering barrel-chested giant, standing 9 feet tall and weighing approximately 550 pounds if measured in his bare skin and with his back uncharacteristically straight. (While equipped and enlarged, as shown above, Eddie is 18 feet tall and weighs approximately 4,750 pounds.)

Eddie was born almost 80 years ago near the Brazen Peaks in the Mwangi Expanse, but was stolen from his small tribe of alqarn by slavers, sold in Katapesh, brought across the Inner Sea and then sold yet again while still a young child. In what would prove to be one of the rare lucky events in Eddie's life, he ended up as the property of a surprisingly kind and caring middle-aged Chelish merchant noblewoman. In her service, Eddie spent the following four decades in relative freedom, growing up content and mostly happy, sheltered and blissfully ignorant of much of the prejudice, fear and hatred the civilized world has in store for those born different. But Eddie was in for a rude awakening when his elderly mistress unexpectedly died during a return journey from Korvosa, apparently while she had been peacefully asleep in her cabin as her ship slowly crept south across Conqueror's Bay. The superstitious ship crew almost immediately started eyeing the shy and oddly looking Eddie with suspicion, and not more than a day after the death of his beloved mistress, the cold hearted captain set course for the closest harbor and then abandoned the shocked Eddie crying on the docks of Nisroch.

Afraid, cold and hungry without so much as a copper to buy food Eddie paced the oddly clean and eerily silent streets of the city, unsuccessfully pleading for help from the few and clearly disapproving citizens he met. Within hours, he was spotted by a pair of patrolling Silent Enforcers who immediately saw him guilty of loitering and begging. But before they had managed to beat Eddie to death, his whimpering pleading and the fine quality of his clothes led them to conclude that he was a slave recently and illegally abandoned by his owner, and seemingly still a child despite his size, and so they decided to bring their strange find before the Silent One to be considered as a recruit. That same night, Eddie was forced into the sinister training and indoctrination program of the Silent Shroud, his voice burned from his throat and the chained skull of Zon-Kuthon burned into the back of his hand soon thereafter.

Some thirty years later, Eddie was fully grown and transformed into a loyal servant of Zon-Kuthon and the Shrouded One, and his imposing size and brutally effective signature wrestling fighting style had made him feared on the streets of Nisroch as well as the cause of much obvious envy from fellow Silent Enforcers. And one day, word of Eddie's exotic appearance and martial prowess also happened to reach the ears of one of Nidal's generals visiting the city. Intrigued, the general decided to find out how much truth there was to the rumors about this odd Silent Enforcer, and arranged for a couple of seasoned soldiers in his retinue to fight Eddie, promising his mysterious leader a hefty compensation should Eddie be killed. After seeing Eddie swiftly incapacitating the two fully armed soldiers with his bare hands and then starting to calmly torture his helpless foes by breaking fingers and crushing toes, the general seemed pleased and ordered an agent of the Umbral Court to test Eddie for special training in Ridwan, claiming such skills would better serve Nidal's interests if properly cultivated and directed by the military.

Not more than a year later, Eddie had already caught up with the senior students at Schola Cruciamenia*, Ridwan's most elite military academy, his fiendish heritage giving him an uncanny knack for quickly mastering the mercilessly cruel and frightening martial disciplines and techniques favored by ordained champions of the Midnight Lord. During this year, Eddie was also for the first time in his life not only allowed but encouraged to explore and develop the supernatural powers hiding in his rare mixed blood. Through hard and persistent work he was finally able to will his body into the shape of any humanoid for several minutes, and to stretch his arms and transform his gauntleted hands into terrifying barbed pincer-like weapons. His unique talents and dedication were eventually also recognized and rewarded by his tutors, first by allowing him to receive the blessings of a Zon-Kuthon high priest to restore his voice, and then by declaring him ready for the final lethal exams years before any of the equally junior students would be considered.

But despite his many successes, Eddie never made any friends and remained shy and awkward in social situations where he was expected to be himself. And perhaps more importantly, even after being subjected to decades of constant and calculated political and religious indoctrination by his masters and tutors, Eddie was still harboring doubts about the superiority of Nidal and its forces, as well as that of certain aspects of Zon-Kuthon's teachings.

*This name was made up by me 'cause I couldn't find any names of Nidalese martial art/military schools in Paizo material. It's Latin and roughly translates into "school/elite troop of soldiers/sect (of) pain/torment/torture". Seemed fitting... :smalltongue:


The following describes Eddie's two most noteworthy mechanical combos (aside from the more obvious ones providing size increases and purely numerical bonuses). These combos are typically available in every fight, and are of course accompanied by synergizing maneuvers which further increase Eddie's capabilities as a control and debuff focused defender.

Painfull Pacifying Pincerhand
Seize the Opportunity is a fantastically powerful feat, and Eddie uses it with grapple related options it to immediately reposition and tie up enemies hit by his a melee attacks.

1. Fiend's Grip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype) Most of the melee attacks Eddie makes have the grab ability, allowing him to start a grapple as a free action if he hits, and he may grapple incorporeal creatures thanks to the ghost touch quality of his fiend's grips.
2. Graceful Grappler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) When grappled, Eddie doesn't suffer the penalties to attack or AC, and can still make AoOs.
3. Grapple RAW (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple) "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)."
4. Stance of the Thunderbrand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/piercing-thunder-maneuvers#TOC-Stance-of-the-Thunderbrand) The automatic movement of an opponent Eddie grapples (as per point #3) allows him to make an AoO.
5. Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) Eddie can attempt to maintain a grapple when the grappled opponent provokes an AoO, and he may thus immediately both start and maintain a grapple when he hits a non-adjacent opponent with any kind of melee attack made with either of his fiend's grips.
6. Raging Grappler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/raging-grappler-ex/) Eddie deals damage and triggers other hit effects (demoralization etc) also when he initiates a grapple, meaning a single melee attack hit will often have the same effects as that of two hits. In addition, whenever Eddie maintains a grapple (such as per point #5), he may give his opponent and/or himself the prone condition. Notably, this is not a trip attempt, and thus bypasses all those pesky immunities or bonuses opponents often have against that combat maneuver (flight, weird physiology, no/several legs etc).
7. Vicious Stomp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vicious-stomp-combat/) When an opponent falls prone adjacent to Eddie (such as per point #6), he can make an unarmed strike AoO against that opponent. Since Eddie can also manifest and stop manifesting his fiend's grips, he can usually make this unarmed strike with his normal gauntleted hand, gaining the associated bonuses (typically as per unarmed strike detailed in the Offense section in the build summary).
8. Equipment Trick (rope) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/equipment-trick-combat#TOC-Rope-Tricks) Eddie only takes a –5 penalty to his grapple check when attempting to tie up an opponent he grapples.

Soulless Seraph Smash
Seems practicing scary faces in front of mirror, cultivating relationships with certain individuals in the "underworld", and just being a cold-hearted sadist in general definitely has its merits... (Now doesn't that send a wonderfully cynical moral message? :smallamused: It's practically giving all the self-righteous goody-two-shoes hero schmucks a big fat EVILTM finger!)

1. Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat/) Eddie can make a demoralization attempt as a free action against an enemy he damages with a melee attack while using Power Attack. It's worth noting that a grapple check is a melee attack affected by Power Attack.
2. Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation/) When Eddie successful demoralizes a target already suffering the effects of his previous demoralization, the fear condition worsens (up to panicked from three successful attempts), instead of increasing the shaken condition by another round.
3. Black Seraph Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/black-seraph-style/) Eddie gains scaling profane bonuses to AC and saves against the attacks and effects made by enemies suffering from a fear condition.
4. Black Seraph Annihilation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats/black-seraph-style/) All enemies within 30 ft. of Eddie lose their immunity to fear, although those immune to mind-affecting gain a +5 resistance bonus to saves against fear. So yeah, undead, constructs, aberrations...
5. Heresy Inquisition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/inquisitions/inquistions-paizo/heresy-inquisition/) Eddie has a pathetic Cha score, so luckily this allows him to add his Wis instead of his Cha to Intimidate (and Bluff) checks.
6. Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat-final/) Lets Eddie add his Str mod to Intimidate checks, in addition to his Wis mod. And since Eddie is pretty darn strong and wise, he'll easily succeed on those checks against virtually every enemy he's likely to face.


Combined Result
Together with the Eddie's other options, the two above combos result in the following whenever Eddie hits a non-adjacent foe with a melee attack using his fiend's grip and Power Attack, regardless of whether that melee attack was a made as part of a full attack, charge, martial maneuver, AoO, etc. (Action/event with increased indent is dependent on the last action/event with less indent being successful, including average damage (but not crit damage) and typical results of other effects.)

1. Damage the target takes 36 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

2. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make a demoralize attempt (Intimidate +35 vs DC = 10 + target's HD + target's Wis mod): the target is shaken for at least 1 round, and Eddie gains +3 profane to AC and saves vs target's attacks/effects.
3. Grab granted by fiend's grips - Eddie makes grapple check to initiate a grapple as a free action (CMB +40): Eddie and the target are grappling, but Eddie takes no penalties from the condition and can still make AoOs.

4. Damage granted by Raging Grappler - the target takes another 36 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

5. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is frightened for at least 1 round.
6. Grapple Move the grappled enemy is moved to a free space adjacent to Eddie.

7. AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - the target's movement provokes an AoO from Eddie

8. Tie Up granted by Seize the Opportunity and Equipment Trick (rope) - Eddie may make a grapple check to maintain the grapple and immediately tie up the target instead of making a normal AoO (CMB +40: -5 to Tie Up grappled, +5 to maintain grapple): the target is tied up and must make a DC 60 grapple or Escape Artist check to free itself.

9. Damage granted by fiend's grips - the target takes another 36 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

10. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is panicked for at least 1 round.
11. Prone granted by Raging Grappler - Eddie knocks the target prone.

12. AoO granted by Vicious Stomp - the adjacent target falling prone provokes an unarmed strike AoO from Eddie

13. Damage granted by unarmed strike - the target takes another 35 points of damage (and Eddie may mark and curse the target).

14. Demoralization granted by Cornugon Smash - Eddie may make an additional demoralize attempt (as per #2): the target is panicked for at least +1 additional round.


If you take Fortuitous (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/gear/weaponSpecialAbilities.html#fortuitous)on your amulet of mighty fists, it could get even sillier!

[upho]

If you take Fortuitous (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/gear/weaponSpecialAbilities.html#fortuitous)on your amulet of mighty fists, it could get even sillier!I don't actually think I've ever found Fortuitous to be worth the +1 cost even in a game limited to Paizo options, not to mention a game with PoW content. The -5 attack penalty is just too much, especially when considering the fact that there are quite a few other and IMO superior options which grant additional AoOs. And I find this even more true for a build like Eddie, who has already spent a minor fortune on his weapons and really likes his rage booster enchantments and the extra feats from his Training weapons. So instead, Eddie would use his Intruder's End when facing a horde of enemies, giving him a total of 11 AoOs for one round. Enough for him to be able to tie up and scare the living daylights out of up to six or more enemies during that round.

[Sayt]

I don't actually think I've ever found Fortuitous to be worth the +1 cost even in a game limited to Paizo options, not to mention a game with PoW content. The -5 attack penalty is just too much, especially when considering the fact that there are quite a few other and IMO superior options which grant additional AoOs. And I find this even more true for a build like Eddie, who has already spent a minor fortune on his weapons and really likes his rage booster enchantments and the extra feats from his Training weapons. So instead, Eddie would use his Intruder's End when facing a horde of enemies, giving him a total of 11 AoOs for one round. Enough for him to be able to tie up and scare the living daylights out of up to six or more enemies during that round.

Really? Cause this is making me doubt I'm reading Fortuitous right. The way I figured this worked was, in a sample build Of Greater Trip+Vicious Stomp+Fortuitous amulet, you go Trip->AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(at-5)

It could just be the Optimisation level I build at though, and Eddie is still really scary anyway.

[upho]

Here's another build! This little stalker based troll has much less elaborate descriptions than Eddie "Pincerhand", so you should be able to basically copy and paste him into the guide.

Troll is scary. Really scary. And by that, I don't just mean he's probably scarier than any other PF character you've seen, I mean he's so scary every enemy within 30 ft. of him is likely to cower in fear and have great trouble even laying their eyes on him after his opening turn. In every fight, all day long, every day. And because Troll doesn't understand the concept of a fair fight, and nothing makes him happier than seeing the look of pure horror on the faces of bad guys when he suddenly pops up out of nowhere, screaming at the top of his lungs, and punches them in the unmentionables, he's also really sneaky.

BEWARE! No matter how much he may plead, beg and promise to behave, the True Terror Troll will still end up wreaking absolute havoc on most games and shouldn't be let anywhere near them. But you can still make him a happy troll if you take a page or two from his book of combined nightmare shenanigans and do some more modest trolling for him.

Grendle Aegis (Aberrant) 1/Dread (Nightmare) 1/Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1/Warlord (Privateer) 1/Stalker (Brutal Slayer) 9
Troll is LN (and since he grew up with nice parents who didn't troll him, he's actually LG until he starts hanging out with exactly the kind of people his mother told him to stay away from).

Class Progression, Feats and Notable Features
1 Aegis 1 Intimidating Prowess; customizations: climb, tentacle(?)
2 Dread 1 devastating touch
3 Monk 1 Black Seraph Style, Broken Dreams StyleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Stunning FistB
4 Warlord 1 daring gambit (dastardly gambit), dazzling gambit, salt in the wound: ImprovedB & Greater Dirty TrickB
5 Stalker 1 Fiendskin; combat art: furious strikes
6 Stalker 2
7 Stalker 3 Soulless Gaze; combat art: Shattered Dream StrikeB
8 Stalker 4
9 Stalker 5 Combat Style Master
10 Stalker 6
11 Stalker 7 Black Seraph's Malevolence; combat art: brutal ambush
12 Stalker 8
13 Stalker 9 Dazzling Display
Item training cestus: Black Seraph Annihilation
Item training cestus: Disheartening Display
Item training amulet of mighty fists: Nightmare Veil
Item cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder: Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Martial Tradition Lords of the Wheel: Lurker in Darkness

Ability Scores 20-point buy
Str 22/30 16 base, 2 level, 4 enhancement (belt) / 8 brutal strikes
Dex 10 10 base
Con 16 12 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement (belt)
Int 8 10 base, -2 race
Wis 20 15 base, 1 level, 4 enhancement (headband)
Cha 14 12 base, 2 race

Other Stuff
Important Maneuvers Beat the Clock and preferably Blade-Dance Ballet, Tempest Tango Blitz (from Fool's Errand (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#)), or anything else allowing for both (non-charge) movement and at least three accurate unarmed strikes
Traits Practiced Initiator (stalker), Wisdom in the Flesh (Stealth)
Alternate Racial Traits Imperious Bearing

True Terror Trolling
This is an example of how Troll does his thing using Tempest Tango Blitz in an opening turn.

1. Troll enters the Black Seraph Style stance when initiative is rolled, and then the Broken Dreams Style stance as a free action on his turn (MoMS monk, Combat Style Master)
2. Troll initiates Tempest Tango Blitz:

A. sneaks up to a foe not yet aware of him or one who has not yet acted (ie a flat-footed foe), moving up to his speed (typically 60+ ft.) to a position within 30 ft. of as many enemies as possible. (Tempest Tango Blitz)
B. makes an unarmed strike while shouting "Peekaboo!", adding his devastating touch and activating his brutal strikes for a +8 bonus to his Str. (Tempest Tango Blitz, Broken Dreams Style, brutal ambush, devastating touch, furious strikes)
C. makes a demoralize attempt as a free action to make all enemies within 30 ft. shaken. (Shattered Dream Strike, Imperious Bearing)
D. gains concealment from all shaken enemies, moves up to 10 ft. and makes a Stealth check to hide. (Nightmare Veil, Tempest Tango Blitz)
E. Troll then repeats B - D three more times, attacking the same enemy or another one, gaining his brutal strikes and invisibility bonuses on every attack thanks to being concealed and moving to hide between each attack, so every enemy within 30 ft. are now panicked, even if they're otherwise immune to fear or mind-affecting effects. (Tempest Tango Blitz, Nightmare Veil, Soulless Gaze, Black Seraph Annihilation)
3. The moment Troll has ended his turn, he initiates Beat the Clock and makes a Dazzling Display, making every enemy within 30 ft. cowering and unable to do anything for at the very least 3 rounds (usually at least 7 rounds). (Dazzling Display, Disheartening Display)
4. Troll giggles while his allies executes the survivors and steals their stuff.

[upho]

Really? Cause this is making me doubt I'm reading Fortuitous right. The way I figured this worked was, in a sample build Of Greater Trip+Vicious Stomp+Fortuitous amulet, you go Trip->AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(At Full Bab), AoO(at-5)That's exactly how I read it as well. I should've made it clear I was thinking specifically for a control/debuff AoO defender build like Eddie, because for a more damage focused character I also think Fortuitous can be great, especially when combined with trip since the prone condition almost completely voids the -5 attack penalty.

But for mentioned defender builds, my experience has been that there always seem to be more urgently needed enchants/items, like Dueling (PFSG/psionic), Leveraging, Phase Locking, Titanic armor, etc. Meaning stuff that quickly become vital during mid levels for you to be able to do your thing with any reasonable success chance, and for that thing to have enough impact to be worth the investments already made. For initiators, it has also been my experience that Fortuitous offers a less unique advantage than for Paizo martials, since maneuvers opens up for quite a few combos which can both generate additional AoO triggers and give you plenty of additional AoOs during a round. And now when Training exists, it seems chances are Fortuitous will be worthwhile even less often for these typically very feat starved defender builds.

But admittedly, I guess my views on these things make me a bit of an outlier, since I seem to have this obsession with martial builds able to be truly effective without having to deal virtually any damage at all.


It could just be the Optimisation level I build at though, and Eddie is still really scary anyway.I dunno 'bout that. If a player actually made a build like Eddie and expecting it to work according to RAW in a game I run, I think it would be because the game was actually more of a Tippy-style one-off, or because I had done a poor job communicating the game's power level.

...Or simply that my leg was being pulled in case it was suggested by a player in my regular group. Similar quite hilarious jokes at my expense have been attempted and embarrassingly often successful in the past... :smallredface:

[FabulousChester]

Another question: What's a good entry for Landsknecht?

I was thinking either Warlord or Warder, potentially with the Bushi archetype?

[Sayt]

Zweihander Sentinel would be a better entry than a vanilla Warder

[FabulousChester]

Isn't that counter to the Landsknecth's core concept?

Edit: I know Landsknecht historically used two-handed weapons, but the PrC itself seems to promote one-handed (+ shield maybe).

[Swaoeaeieu]

Another question: What's a good entry for Landsknecht?

I was thinking either Warlord or Warder, potentially with the Bushi archetype?

i was going to add this to the guide at some point.

but it looks like the landsknecht has the most synergy with a bushy warder.
but honestly it goes well with warlord as well.

you can twohand with a landsknecht, the class feature just means it doesnt matter damagewise if you one hand or not.

[upho]

Speaking of trip and Fortuitous, here's a damage focused warder/psion/awakened blade sample build incorporating those options:

Combining the warder with a psion dip and the amazing Awakened Blade PrC gives fantastic power and versatility, adding substantial raw number boosts to both offense and defense, improved action economy, awesome buffs for a melee defender (metamorphosis at 10th level or earlier!), and tons of utility.

Since the metamorphosis line's size increases are one of the major selling points of this class combo, it's best as Str based with the psychometabolism (egoist) psion discipline, and goes especially well with an aasimar, skinwalker or tiefling of gamla heritage for a Large starting size. Otherwise, this kind of build excels at any melee combat focus that goes well with the warder, such as control, damage and/or debuff. It's significantly stronger than straight warder in virtually all cases, and arguably at least on par with the similar zealot/wilder/awakened blade variant, losing raging surge and the ability to augment maneuvers, but gaining numerous additional powers, skill points and a better power progression. Despite not making use of the Awakened Blade's Warrior's Path feature, both of these Awakened Blade build combos are also substantially stronger than those with psychic warrior or soulknife based manifestation progression (although combos including these classes for other purposes may be competitive).

Below is a 15 level outline of a trip Vital Strike AoO damage focused build which prioritizes the warder side. It's able to deal massive amounts of AoO damage (typically at least 170 points on average) thanks to the damage die increases granted by Improved Vital Strike with Seize the Opportunity, metamorphosis size increases, Mighty Frame and Primal Warrior Stance. The 19 psion powers also give superior senses, defenses and plenty of utility, not to mention the ability to divine what challenges awaits and then to adapt by doing an almost complete rebuild of up to all 15 levels via the amazing psychic reformation.

Awakened Trip-Killer Sentinel - 15th Level Build Outline
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Warder (Zweihander Sentinel) 4/Psion (egoist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion/psionic-disciplines/psychometabolism/)) 1/Awakened Blade 10
CG Large outsider (native, orc, psionic)

Class Progression, Notable Features / Feats and Powers
1 Warder 1 Defensive focus, aegis +1 (10 ft.) / Combat ReflexesB, Fiendish Heritage (+2 Int)
2 Psion 1 Egoist discipline / Psionic BodyB; defensive and offensive precognition, minor metamorphosis
3 Warder 2 Armiger’s mark / Swift Shapeshifter
4 Warder 3 Dirty FightingB
5 Warder 4 Tactical acumen / Psionic Meditation
6 Awakened Blade 1 Situational awareness / Deep FocusB
7 Awakened Blade 2 Stance of the inner eye / Improved Metamorphosis; telempathic projection, vigor
8 Awakened Blade 3 Uncanny dodge / animal affinity, share pain
9 Awakened Blade 4 Additional Traits (Mixed Blood (orc), Reactionary), Vital StrikeB; control sound, heartbinding
10 Awakened Blade 5 Precognitive defense / metamorphosis, banshee’s hearing
11 Awakened Blade 6 Hypercognitive focus / Improved Vital Strike
12 Awakened Blade 7 Clairsentient counter / fettering the shade, spiritual resting place
13 Awakened Blade 8 Mighty Frame, Power Attack; psychic reformation, fold space
14 Awakened Blade 9 Improved uncanny dodge / augured answer, energy adaptation
15 Awakened Blade 10 Pretercognitive mind / Martial Charge; pierce the veils, psionic revivify
Item training gauntlets: Greater Trip, Seize the Opportunity
Item cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder: Weapon Focus (guisarme)
Power metamorphosis: Improved Trip
Martial Tradition Reverents of the Lance: Haft Strike

Stances and Readied Maneuvers Intelligence, IL 15, 12 known
Stances Chronal FissionRH5, Primal Warrior StancePF3, Unbroken StrideSG1, Vigilant Keeper’s StanceEG1
Boosts Lightning StepPF5, Blade of FuryPF6
Counters Beat the ClockRH7, Relativity BurstRH5, Time SkitterRH3
Strikes Hammer of the ImmortalEG8, Primal FrenzyPF7

Psion Manifestation Intelligence, ML 11, 19 powers known, 144 PP/day, concentration +17

Ability Scores oni-spawn tiefling, 20-point buy
Str 30 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 6 enhancement (belt), 4 size (metamorphosis)
Dex 10 10 base, 4 enhancement (metamorphosis), -4 size (metamorphosis)
Con 18 14 base, 4 enhancement (animal affinity)
Int 22 15 base, 2 race (Fiendish Heritage), 1 level, 4 enhancement (headband)
Wis 16 12 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement (headband)
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race

Alternate Racial Traits Fiendish Sprinter, Maw, Prehensile Tail
Traits Mixed Blood (orc), Practiced Initiator (warder), Psionic Knack (psion), Reactionary

Noteworthy Offense Values (including Power Attack and Primal Warrior Stance, assuming +4 enhancement from psychic weapon)
Initiative +14 (6 int (tactical acumen), 2 trait (Reactionary), 5 insight (situational awareness), 1 competence (cracked dusty rose prism))
Melee psycho-trip guisarme +28/+28/+23/+18 (12d6+37/x3, +2d6 precision)
AoO 7/round: +28 (36d6+37/x3, +2d6 precision); Trip CMB +53 (as if Colossal)

Suggested Gear (included in above numbers, 171,809 gp total market price) psycho-trip guisarme (+1 dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons/#TOC-Dueling) fortuitous psychic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons/#TOC-Psychic) deep crystal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-special-materials/) "wingtrip guisarme" (= Dragoncatch Guisarme (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/dragoncatch-guisarme/) w/o bane)), +1 training (Greater Trip) gauntlet, +1 training (Seize the Opportunity) gauntlet, +6 str belt, +4 int/+2 wis headband, cracked pale green prism, power stones of incarnate and ubiquitous vision (1 charge of each used), cognizance crystal (9 PP), cracked dusty rose prism, cracked opalescent white pyramid in wayfinder


Improvement suggestions/comments/questions are most welcome, as always!