What exactly *is* a spiked chain, anyway?

[WhiteHarness]

Seriously. It seems like no consensus can ever be arrived at regarding what the thing looks like, which real-world weapon it's based on, etc.

What is it? I genuinely want to know.

[AtomicKitKat]

Think of it as a bicycle chain. With little strips of barbed wire interwoven. Ahh hell, just imagine your character whipping around the barbed wire you see on top of chain link fence. It's probably smarter than trying to imagine a character whipping around razor wire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_wire).

[SpiderBrigade]

The only "real" weapon I can think of that remotely resembles the spiked chain is the manriki-gusari, which is not spiked at all.

That said, I know exactly what you mean regarding the lack of consensus. The picture in the PHB is ridiculous, and is pretty much a double flail with no handles. There's a much better pic in Complete Warrior, page 111, which shows a much longer, slimmer chain (justifying the reach, as well as looking a lot less dangerous to the wielder.)

[kamikasei]

"No consensus"? Isn't there a picture in the PHB?

It looks like this (http://www.dragonquestfrontiers.com/images/chain.JPG), as I recall. It's a chain, where the links have spikes on them. It's certainly weird, but not particularly controversial, that I'm aware of.

[Jayabalard]

a length of heavy chain that has wire wrapped around some of the links.

For the most part, it's a silly weapon with highly exaggerated abilities in game over what it can really do.

[Telonius]

I think of it like swordchucks, except with spikes instead of swords.

[Morgan_Scott82]

The closest real world weapon I'm aware of is the Kusari-Gama (Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusarigama) which is essentailly a Kama with a lenght of chain attached. Though as I understand it the chain on a Kusari Gama was used to distract, disarm or entangle the opponent and not to do damage, but then again I'm by no means an expert.

As for the D&D spiked chain that does piercing damage and has a bonus to trip and disarm attmepts, I have no idea.

[SpiderBrigade]

"No consensus"? Isn't there a picture in the PHB?

It looks like this (http://www.dragonquestfrontiers.com/images/chain.JPG), as I recall. It's a chain, where the links have spikes on them. It's certainly weird, but not particularly controversial, that I'm aware of.Well, the controversy comes in because some people are...unsatisfied with that picture. For instance, if that picture is to scale, the ends of the chain are way too big for it to be effectively used, especially as a finessable weapon.

I mean, it's clearly a "fantasy weapon," which is why you didn't see them on medieval battlefields :smallbiggrin: But the PHB pic lacks verisimilitude, IMO. As I say, check out Complete Warrior for a much more plausible version.

[Diggorian]

I envision it as a 10ft length of chain with little spikes on both sides of each link, exotic to reflect the special training involved in not shredding your hands.

I contend that a friend of mine invented it's concept during a Dark Sun campaign back in '93 or '94. He played a gladiator with improvised weapon ability and lots of non-weapon prof. slots used for Rope Use.

We were pinned down in a corridor by archers hiding around corners at a T junction. He gets the idea to tie a sword to 10ft of rope and swung it so the corner acted like a fulcrum for the tossed sword. The newly minted "sword-on-a-rope" killed both archers. Later he got dual wielding and tied another sword to the other end. :smallamused:

We're not seeking royalties; I dont know where the D&D designers got the idea. If the whip was modeled better in the RAW you wouldnt even need the chain IMHO.

[WhiteHarness]

See? Just half a dozen or so replies, and no consensus at all as to what this weapon is supposed to be.

If I were to take a stab at it, I'd picture it as looking something like what that schoolgirl wielded in "Kill Bill." That's the only way I can imagine anything called a "spiked chain" could stand a chance of injuring someone in rigid armour.

http://www.fantasyprops.com/gallery/yubari.html

[Ramza00]

Though as I understand it the chain on a Kusari Gama was used to distract, disarm or entangle the opponent and not to do damage, but then again I'm by no means an expert.

Also stun and to break momentum, but yeah minor details you hit the major.

[Mewtarthio]

It's a chain that has been spiked. Honestly, I don't see where the confusion comes from. :smallsigh:

[Fax Celestis]

The picture in the back of the PHB-II is best, actually.

[kamikasei]

Well, the controversy comes in because some people are...unsatisfied with that picture. For instance, if that picture is to scale, the ends of the chain are way too big for it to be effectively used, especially as a finessable weapon.

I mean, it's clearly a "fantasy weapon," which is why you didn't see them on medieval battlefields :smallbiggrin: But the PHB pic lacks verisimilitude, IMO. As I say, check out Complete Warrior for a much more plausible version.

Interesting. I agree the PHB version looks... well, silly; but I had no idea other books pictured it differently. Any complaints I've seen here about the spiked chain have tended to focus on its crunch, more than its fluff...

[Ramza00]

Isn't there a pict in complete warrior of some ogre using one or something?

[Iron_Mouse]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75468.jpg
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97175.jpg

[Fax Celestis]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97175.jpg

That's the one I was talking about.

[Ramza00]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75468.jpg
here

[AtomicKitKat]

I still contend that if you look for pictures of punks wielding bicycle chains, then mentally replace the chains with lengths of barbed wire, you'd have a rough idea of how it would look(and wielded).

Edit: IMO, the rings contribute to the "ludicrosity" of the image. As someone who's swung their keychain around their finger, I can tell you that having your finger/hand actually in and over the ring interferes with the ability to swing the rest of the chain effectively(unless you like twisting the chain, which costs you momentum)

Sword on rope is reminiscent of the Meteor Hammer. Just more sharp, less bludgeon.

[Captain van der Decken]

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97166.jpg

That the one?(haven't got PHB-II) I'd agree with you, though it seems a little short.

... Yeah, I was slow. Is that Redgar? Looking at it.. doesn't seem long enough.

[Golthur]

So, a pointy meteor hammer?

[Ramza00]

The problem with spiked chain in real life is threefold.
1) You will never be able to create enough downward "force" of the blade to pierce armor instead it would bounce off
2) You risk the chance of a heavily bladed weapon (that isn't balanced that well with the rest of the weapon) of hitting yourself or not hitting the target.
3) One miss and there is no way you can change montenum fast enough, you are screwed.

The Kursi gama doesn't have problem 1 due to how the weapon is used. The extra blade/size/weight makes it counter productive, to those type of trip, stun, distract entangle.

The Kursi Gama is specifically a light weight ball to reduce problem 2.

The Kursi Gama still has problem 3 its just reduced by you dropping the chain and defending with the kama. Of course in real life the samurai has an opening to kill you and he would use it.

[Diggorian]

OK, I had envisioned the chain as that in CW, the pic Ramza posted above, but now I'm joining concensus with Fax for the PHB2 pic.

It looks far more reasonable to wield and would have the reach if Regdar wielded it in his right hand by the loop his left hand is holding. In essense, long-hafting the grip for more length; as I believe you should be able to do with shortspears.

[Gryndle]

As a previous poster mentioned, I envision it being used more along the lines of the manriki-gusari. If you're properly trained with a manriki, it is a nasty little surprise for whoever you use it on.

That said, its a fantasy weapon in a fantasy game. it doesn't have to make any more sense than creating fireballs out of bat guano and sulfur, or animated statues, or any number of other oddities you can pick from the books.

[Woot Spitum]

The problem with spiked chain in real life is threefold.
1) You will never be able to create enough downward "force" of the blade to pierce armor instead it would bounce off
2) You risk the chance of a heavily bladed weapon (that isn't balanced that well with the rest of the weapon) of hitting yourself or not hitting the target.
3) One miss and there is no way you can change montenum fast enough, you are screwed.

The Kursi gama doesn't have problem 1 due to how the weapon is used. The extra blade/size/weight makes it counter productive, to those type of trip, stun, distract entangle.

The Kursi Gama is specifically a light weight ball to reduce problem 2.

The Kursi Gama still has problem 3 its just reduced by you dropping the chain and defending with the kama. Of course in real life the samurai has an opening to kill you and he would use it.

Actually, if you think about it, most slashing weapons won't do a very good job of cutting through armor. A battleaxe or greatsword will do most of its damage against an armored foe by breaking his bones, not chopping through his armor. The same goes for the spiked chain. Against unarmored foes though...

[Ramza00]

Actually, if you think about it, most slashing weapons won't do a very good job of cutting through armor. A battleaxe or greatsword will do most of its damage against an armored foe by breaking his bones, not chopping through his armor. The same goes for the spiked chain. Against unarmored foes though...
Yes and no, a person with an great axe can also go for the weakspots in the armor such as the joints. A person with a spiked chain can not. But you are right those weapons are applying alot more force causing internal injurries that a spiked chain can not due to how physics work. Bludgeoning/Piercing combo weapons are what destroys plate. Things such as slashing are better against leather armor.

[Threeshades]

Here's another version
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97166.jpg
This one should make some sense too

[Diggorian]

Actually, if you think about it, most slashing weapons won't do a very good job of cutting through armor. A battleaxe or greatsword will do most of its damage against an armored foe by breaking his bones, not chopping through his armor. The same goes for the spiked chain. Against unarmored foes though...

Agreed. Also, if you're hitting good enough to get over an armor's AC bonus that denotes a gap in protection being exploited.

[Iron_Mouse]

It looks like it might hurt, but a sword would still hurt more I guess...especially against armor.

I like the one from the halforc the most. I think this could actually work. No spikes, but saw-like blades. Wrap it around the extremities of the enemy and pull as hard as you can. Or strike with it, like you would with a whip.
Although that wouldn't be called a "spiked" chain, more a bladed chain, and maybe it wouldn't do piercing damage, but slashing.

[Sulecrist]

My campaign setting has perhaps six in existence--the only ones created were largely ceremonial.

That said, I always ignore the PHB art and go with a 'Blades of Chaos' look (a la God of War.) The chain (thirty feet long) is wound over the forearms, around the shoulders, and across the back. Also, all of the Spiked Chains in my setting are at least a +1--nonmagical ones are nearly impossible to use. Some of the runes inscribed in the magical creation give the chain limited inertia-defying side-effects.

One chain is actually sentient. That was fun.

[Mike_G]

Interesting. I agree the PHB version looks... well, silly; but I had no idea other books pictured it differently. Any complaints I've seen here about the spiked chain have tended to focus on its crunch, more than its fluff...

I agree. It's not totally unweildable, but the way it's got pretty much longswrd damage, can be finessed, or Power Attacked with, or used as Reach, or Close, or gets a bonus to Trip or Disarm, it's just too good for a weapon that really wouldn't stand up on the battle field.

In a gang fight, sure it'd be intimidating and maybe useful. But so would a sharpened screwdriver.

I'd scale back the advatages of the chain. Take away the power attack, lower the damage, force an action to change from Reach to Close, and still allow the trip/disarm stuff.

[SpiderBrigade]

MikeG, I believe the issue with that is that if you scale it back too badly, no one will invest the exotic proficiency. I think if you choose 2 of your suggested changes, that could be ok, but all 3 is maybe too much.

[Mike_G]

MikeG, I believe the issue with that is that if you scale it back too badly, no one will invest the exotic proficiency. I think if you choose 2 of your suggested changes, that could be ok, but all 3 is maybe too much.

You may be right. It needs nerfing, but maybe I'm overdoing it. I still say lower the damage and lose Power Attack. It's not like you can really get much more oomph into a swing with a chain. It'll still yield when it hits, so it should benefit less from PA than a rigid weapon.

I just have a hate-on for the Spiked Chain since it'd be such a lousy weapon in real life and is so advantaged in D&D.

[Morgan_Scott82]

You may be right. It needs nerfing, but maybe I'm overdoing it. I still say lower the damage and lose Power Attack. It's not like you can really get much more oomph into a swing with a chain. It'll still yield when it hits, so it should benefit less from PA than a rigid weapon.

I just have a hate-on for the Spiked Chain since it'd be such a lousy weapon in real life and is so advantaged in D&D.

I wouldn't say you're overdoing it, even compared to other exotic weapons the spiked chain stands head and shoulders above the rest. It needs to be brought down in power to be comparable to other two handed exotic weapons. Unfortunately its the only two handed exotic weapon in the core rules that isn't a double weapon, making it difficult to develope a frame of reference.

[silentknight]

It certainly makes more sense to me for the spiked chain to be a length of chain with a weighted spike at one or both ends (like the kusari-gama) rather than a length of chain with spikes sticking out of the links or razor wire wrapped around.

That way the "exotic" weapon training teaches how to swing it around to make effective strikes rather than trying not to shred your own hands.

[Vaynor]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

[Mewtarthio]

Perhaps something like the Daggertail from Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones...

[Tengu]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Selb11.gif/320px-Selb11.gif (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ee/Selb11.gif)

[NecroPaladin]

The only chains I can think of that were ever recorded as being effective in combat were blunt, and even those were obscure weapons from places like Japan.

So chain wieldable in combat? Yes. Spiked? No. Add weapon spikes? Conundrum.

[Mewtarthio]

That's more like a Kusari-Gama, I believe, Tengu.

...Funny. I can't really find a good picture of the Daggertail online.

[Tengu]

That's more like a Kusari-Gama, I believe, Tengu.

Indeed. The only way a spiked chain would work.
Except that it's not really spiked per se, but it's better than a weapon defying laws of physics, or even common sense.

[Arbitrarity]

Hmm, my DM thinks of it as just whipping the thing around your head really, really fast, and using it to SMACK people. Of course, with this image, it would seem to do bludgeoning, but it has spikes.

Hell, I'd prefer a bludgeoning version! Then it could also sunder :D.

There's also the vampire picture in the MM, http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG251.jpg

I use that for my imaging, along with either a gauntlet or some very tough hands. The weapon itself is made of cheese. Tripping, disarming, 1.5x str, finessable, PA, etc.

Actually, it seems like such a weapon could do that (i.e. wraps, or swinging really fast, etc) but it's still imbalancing.

[NullAshton]

So when has fantasy weapons needed to follow 'real life' weapons?

[kamikasei]

I use that for my imaging, along with either a gauntlet or some very tough hands.

Note that, at the points on the chain where he's wielding it, it simply doesn't have any spikes: it's normal chain. Which looks a little more sensible than the ringed design, and doesn't really require gauntlets or anything - just care.

[Siberys]

Here's another version
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97166.jpg
This one should make some sense too

Exactly how I've always imagined it.

Vamp from MM, too...

[Stephen_E]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_G http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2228720#post2228720)
You may be right. It needs nerfing, but maybe I'm overdoing it. I still say lower the damage and lose Power Attack. It's not like you can really get much more oomph into a swing with a chain. It'll still yield when it hits, so it should benefit less from PA than a rigid weapon.

I just have a hate-on for the Spiked Chain since it'd be such a lousy weapon in real life and is so advantaged in D&D.



I wouldn't say you're overdoing it, even compared to other exotic weapons the spiked chain stands head and shoulders above the rest. It needs to be brought down in power to be comparable to other two handed exotic weapons. Unfortunately its the only two handed exotic weapon in the core rules that isn't a double weapon, making it difficult to develope a frame of reference.

Not this again. I sympathise with Mike G regarding the lack of realism regarding the qualities of the Spiked Chainas a RL weapon, BUT, in DnD terms it's a Exotic Weapon. This means no one gets its with spending a feat on it.

Is it more powerful than the other core Exotic Weapons? Yes.
Head abd shoulders better? Again, yes.
Does it make it to powerful and requiring nerfing? NO! Hint here. Look at all the other core Exotic Weapons. Have you EVER seen someone spend a feat to use them (other than as a joke)? I haven't (even as a joke). It simply isn't worth it. The simple truth is that for a weapon to be worth spending a feat on to use, it MUST be significantly better.

If you power it down you're really saying "remove this weapon from availability", and that's the last you'll see of people using exotic weapons except for racial weapons where the the race member gets it for free with Martial weapon profincies.

Stephen

[Wehrkind]

I think I would take away power attack, and probably something else, but I would ADD that it ignores shields and any parry tricks.

The whole fun of chains and balls on the ends of them, is that they are a HUGE problem to block because they just wrap around things.

It is a silly weapon to use where people have plate armor though. Makes about as much sense as a quarter staff vs full plate. (Which is to say very non-lethal, but potentially very annoying and awkward to fight.)

[EvilElitest]

See? Just half a dozen or so replies, and no consensus at all as to what this weapon is supposed to be.

If I were to take a stab at it, I'd picture it as looking something like what that schoolgirl wielded in "Kill Bill." That's the only way I can imagine anything called a "spiked chain" could stand a chance of injuring someone in rigid armour.

http://www.fantasyprops.com/gallery/yubari.html

Thats a metor hammer in real life, uses in china. The spikes are added though.
[QUOTE]It certainly makes more sense to me for the spiked chain to be a length of chain with a weighted spike at one or both ends (like the kusari-gama) rather than a length of chain with spikes sticking out of the links or razor wire wrapped around.
[QUOTE]
Have that, chain whip, also china.
The only spike chain i consider valid is the one from herroes of horror, the tainted reaper pic. I don't know where to get it though.
from,
EE

[Krellen]

I think I would take away power attack, and probably something else, but I would ADD that it ignores shields and any parry tricks.
From the pictures of the Spiked Chain, while it takes two hands to wield, one of them is used just to keep a hold on it. Therefore, it should take two hands, but function as one-handed, because only the twirling/throwing hand actually has anything to do with how hard it hits. It's clear from all the pictures we have available that the Spiked Chain is essentially thrown at your enemy, with the second hand keeping a hold on it so as to withdraw it quickly.

[ArmorArmadillo]

I honestly believe "spiked chain" is more a category of weapon than a type of weapon.

Just as "short sword" could encompass a Seax, Gladius, or a Wakizashi, "spiked chain" refers to any weapon formed of a chain and some kind of spiky portrusion.

P.S. Kusari-Gama is statted in the DMG, it's identical to Spiked Chain except it deals Slashing/Bludgeoning and deals 1d6 (I think)

[Jack Mann]

Like Stephen said, Mike, the spiked chain isn't overpowered. It's as powerful as an exotic weapon should be. It's the other exotic weapons that should be changed. None of them is really worth a feat.

Also:http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91999.jpg
Tainted Minion
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/92000.jpg
Tainted Raver

Both from Heroes of Horror.

[AtomicKitKat]

Have that, chain whip, also china.
The only spike chain i consider valid is the one from herroes of horror, the tainted reaper pic. I don't know where to get it though.
from,
EE

Is it this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91999.jpg)? Or this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/92000.jpg)?

First is Minion, second is Raver. Both Tainted.

[Tengu]

So a spiked chain is either a kusari-gama, or a long morningstar without a handle. Now I have flashbacks of night goblin fanatics from Warhammer.

[Attilargh]

I wonder, why does nearly every pic of the chain make it look like a double weapon, when it isn't?

[AmoDman]

Also:http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/hoh_gallery/91999.jpg

Aw man, that guy's about to get jacked...by his own damn weapon.

[Stephen_E]

I wonder, why does nearly every pic of the chain make it look like a double weapon, when it isn't?

That's because it's treated as a semi double-weapon. The Exotic Weapon-Master has a special ability that gives Double Weapons AND the Spiked Chain an extra attack.

Stephen

[marjan]

Probably off-topic but here you go:
Exotic weapon master's Flurry of Strikes says you get extra attack when you wield spiked chain with both hands. I was wondering how else could you wield spiked chain?

[hewhosaysfish]

Probably off-topic but here you go:
Exotic weapon master's Flurry of Strikes says you get extra attack when you wield spiked chain with both hands. I was wondering how else could you wield spiked chain?

Thri-Kreen! Four hands!

[Jayabalard]

personally, I don't think that a spiked chain needs to be nerfed because it's overpowered... I think that it needs to be nerfed because the mechanics on it are just plain silly. Treating it as a 2 handed light weapon, with no power attack might be enough.

[Vodun]

I just got rid of it with alot of other weapons I consider silly. (i.e., the dire flail, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, and two-bladed sword.) I use a house rule that if its got two ends that you cant help but hit yourself with, its got to go.

[AtomicKitKat]

I just got rid of it with alot of other weapons I consider silly. (i.e., the dire flail, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, and two-bladed sword.) I use a house rule that if its got two ends that you cant help but hit yourself with, its got to go.

Most double-ended weapons can be used in a "staff-like" fashion, wherein you use the big non-ouchy portion in the middle to brace/handle/bounce off your own body in between the attack motions. The Dire Flail is pretty ridiculous though. Only way I can see it working is those old martial arts cliches where the little old (wo)man has these buckets hanging from a staff across their shoulders, and they lead with their shoulders on the swings.

[Golthur]

Most double-ended weapons can be used in a "staff-like" fashion, wherein you use the big non-ouchy portion in the middle to brace/handle/bounce off your own body in between the attack motions. The Dire Flail is pretty ridiculous though. Only way I can see it working is those old martial arts cliches where the little old (wo)man has these buckets hanging from a staff across their shoulders, and they lead with their shoulders on the swings.

Or maybe use it like a kayak paddle, but then all someone has to do is stand directly in front of you and you can't hit them :tongue:.

Yep, I got rid of the dire flail...

[Clementx]

I just got rid of it with alot of other weapons I consider silly. (i.e., the dire flail, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, and two-bladed sword.) I use a house rule that if its got two ends that you cant help but hit yourself with, its got to go.
Can you personally use a rope dart without tying yourself up? I guess that means that they don't exist in China where martial artists have been using them for a thousand years. Just because you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency, doesn't mean a Fighter that spends the feat can't do it.

[Wolf53226]

Actually, I would believe you could whip the dire flail around much like a three section staff. Although that weapon always seemed silly to me, and I can't imagine how useful it would really be on a battlefield, it seems like them most likely option.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, I would believe you could whip the dire flail around much like a three section staff. Although that weapon always seemed silly to me, and I can't imagine how useful it would really be on a battlefield, it seems like them most likely option.

Three-section staffs are very good on the battlefield. They're like nunchaku, but easier to defend with, and they reach further.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I always found the three-section-staff to be a highly impractical weapon, since it has several weak spots that a bladed weapon could easily utilize to break it. Plus, I had a habit of hitting myself when I used one. Anyway- from the looks of it, it appears as though the spiked chain is supposed to be thrown like a harpoon. The "tip" doesn't have to pierce the enemy, however. It just has to get near enough so that when you pull back, the spikes, which look to be pointed backwards like on a harpoon, would catch on the skin/clothing/armor and either rip it or drag the person (hence the trip attack). At close range, it could be used for more defensive purposes as any chain could, but since the ends are still spiked, it could also be wrapped around anyone that close to cause some very nasty wounds.

All speculation, of course.

[Wolf53226]

Well Yuki, I've seen one used in a demonstration once, and I can see it's usefulness from that. Although for all I know, most of the moves he was doing were just for show, so I will take your word for it on it being very good. Question is then, COULD a dire flail be used in the same general manner?

[Yuki Akuma]

Well Yuki, I've seen one used in a demonstration once, and I can see it's usefulness from that. Although for all I know, most of the moves he was doing were just for show, so I will take your word for it on it being very good. Question is then, COULD a dire flail be used in the same general manner?

No. You'd have to do the "old lady with two buckets on the end of a staff" thing, or hit yourself in the face.

Three-section staffs are used similarly to normal staffs and nunchaku; that is, you hold them by the striking surface.

[Fhaolan]

Actually, I can see the dire flail actually working, but not if it's depicted in the way it is in the PHB. That version I can see making a wonderful martial art weapon, with emphasis on 'art', not 'martial'. It's very stylistic and fancy, and would allow for very impressive katas. Throwing it in the air, with the spiked ends twirlling around, and catching it again, doing cool maneuvers with it passing around behind your shoulders, etc.

Right up to the point where you actually hit something with one end of it. Then it all falls apart. It's the length of the chains that makes it unworkable. The chains are too long compared to the length of the solid staff. If anything happens to one end of the staff, there's this extra spiked ball on a relatively long chain somewhere out there moving very fast while effectively not under anyone's control. Not a good situation.

Now, if it was a dire bishop's flail, where the heads are attached to a long shaft by very short chains (pretty much just a multi-directional hinge), it becomes workable. Not a really impressive weapon, but within the range of weird weapons used by martial artists. Or, eliminate the shaft itself, so the two flail heads are almost independant of each other on long chains that just happen to join in the middle (much like some of the depictions of spiked chains). Again, a fancy-dancy weapon only used by martial artists, but technically workable.

In order for spikes on a chain to be useful, there has to be mass behind them. Otherwise, they're only useful against people in light, or no, clothing. Putting mass behind them, and you're back to the 'no-staff' version of the dire flail. Or, since the version in the PHB is nominally *not* a double weapon, a staff-less regular flail. Which sends us back to the chinese Meteor weapon with spikes added to it. [As a note, a spiked Meteor would be silly, as a significant number of the maneuvers depend on being able to redirect the meteor's vectors by kicking it or something similar. Putting spikes on the meteor eliminates your ability to do that.]

[Vodun]

Can you personally use a rope dart without tying yourself up? I guess that means that they don't exist in China where martial artists have been using them for a thousand years. Just because you don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency, doesn't mean a Fighter that spends the feat can't do it.

I should have specified to say that Its really applying to things that I cant really see being used well enough. The spiked chain in question is apparently possible according to some of the people here so Ill have to look that one up a bit more. The two-bladed sword can obviously be seen used without hitting ones self, as seen from darth maul, but I cant tell if youd really be able to hit things with enough force to constitute a d8's worth of damage. The gnome hooked hammer looks to me like youd pierce your gut if you tried to use the hammer side, the dire flail looks like one of the easiest ways to get a vasectomy, as well as removing other more vital body parts. Plus it looks silly. The orc double axe has the same issue as the two-bladed sword. at least to me. The Urgrosh, however, looks to me like its actually quite possible to use, as the spear end doesnt appear to get in the way while using it as an axe, and vice versa, so I kept it. Im probably wrong though.

[Mike_G]

I just got rid of it with alot of other weapons I consider silly. (i.e., the dire flail, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, and two-bladed sword.) I use a house rule that if its got two ends that you cant help but hit yourself with, its got to go.


My sentiments exactly.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It's a typical fantasy viewpoint. "The more blades/spikes the better!", and "Chains make everything cooler!"

Nevermind the logical applications of such nonsense. They're there to look good in the heads of the players, not in actual practice. When it comes right down to it, any of those weird weapons could be easily dealt with by a simple shortsword.

[Deus Mortus]

I know a person who uses a double meteor hammer (long chain with two heavy balls attached to the ends) you need some training to use it, but when you get better with it, it's like fighting a bloody whirlwind. I can imagine spiked chains working.

[Diggorian]

Would it make more sense as a slashing weapon?

I always described hits with it in-game as the spikes ripped across exposed spots. Dont see how it could truely pierce like a spear or rapier being flexible.

In our games, it's been houseruled that spiked chains provoke AoO when used on adjacents, like a whip. Whips threaten their full 15ft also with us.

[Stephen_E]

To those who ban or nerf the Spiked chain because of lack of realism, in that they chain weapons don't look or work precisely how DnD portrays the Spiked Chain, I ask you -

Do you also ban the Great Sword or Falchion as just two examples of DnD weapons that don't work or look like their RL counterparts?

In fact if combat/weapon realism is such a big thing why are you even using the DnD combat system?

The DnD weapons/combat system is, and always has been, patently unrealistic in how they operate. There are more realistic systems but I recall something someone once said to me "If realistic combat bothered me that much I get armour and weapons and actually fight the damned combats". The system is reasonably balanced within itself, including the Spiked Chain. What more really matters?

Stephen

[Vodun]

To those who ban or nerf the Spiked chain because of lack of realism, in that they chain weapons don't look or work precisely how DnD portrays the Spiked Chain, I ask you -

Do you also ban the Great Sword or Falchion as just two examples of DnD weapons that don't work or look like their RL counterparts?

In fact if combat/weapon realism is such a big thing why are you even using the DnD combat system?

The DnD weapons/combat system is, and always has been, patently unrealistic in how they operate. There are more realistic systems but I recall something someone once said to me "If realistic combat bothered me that much I get armour and weapons and actually fight the damned combats". The system is reasonably balanced within itself, including the Spiked Chain. What more really matters?

Stephen

I dont know about you, but I can easily imagine the greatsword working, even if its not an accurate representation, but I find myself very hard pressed to imagine the dire flail working.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Yeah, the greatsword and falchion are both based off of real weapons. If you're having trouble imagining those, you must be thinking of their seven foot long, two foot wide anime variants or something.

And spiked chain, balanced?!

[Jack Mann]

The spiked chain is balanced, mechanically. It's just that the other exotic weapons in the SRD are too weak. There isn't a single one of them that's worth using a feat to get.

EDIT: Even the spiked chain isn't really worth taking, since you can get much the same effect with a guisarme and armor spikes.

[Deepblue706]

A spiked-chain to me is about as cool as sword-boots or shoulder-pads with axes built into them. Or, maybe like a dagger connected to a dire-flail. Or a rope that you swing around, with a heavy crossbow attached to the end.

No, no, an axe-helmet! Or...a spiked cape!

No. A triple-bladed sword...or even a quadruple-bladed sword?!

Yeah, a sword with 4 blades, connected by chain to a double-trident, which can merge with the sword to make the whole thing a masterwork "helicopter" sword.

[Dhavaer]

I imagine wielding a quadruple-bladed sword would look a lot like breakdancing.

[Golthur]

Oooh! I know! A dire longbow! :tongue:

EDIT: come to think of it, this would end up looking a lot like some sort of bizarre two-stringed lyre...

[Mike_G]

A spiked-chain to me is about as cool as sword-boots or shoulder-pads with axes built into them. Or, maybe like a dagger connected to a dire-flail. Or a rope that you swing around, with a heavy crossbow attached to the end.

No, no, an axe-helmet! Or...a spiked cape!

No. A triple-bladed sword...or even a quadruple-bladed sword?!

Yeah, a sword with 4 blades, connected by chain to a double-trident, which can merge with the sword to make the whole thing a masterwork "helicopter" sword.

See, I can imagine that happening at the WOTC design meeting after about a kilo of weed.

I think that's how the Orc Double Axe was conceived.

The Dire Flail didn't come about until the lightweights were all lying on the floor, holding the carpets because the room was spinning so fast and trying to describe how the color blue tastes.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Incidentally, it tastes GROOVY.

[Enzario]

@ whoever posted regarding two-bladed swords: yes, you can attack with one of these and not hit yourself. I've done it, and essentially like fighting with a large staff. Except that the staff has blades attatched to it.

Orc racial weapon?
The Stick

[AtomicKitKat]

I know a person who uses a double meteor hammer (long chain with two heavy balls attached to the ends) you need some training to use*snip*

That's the image I had in my mind when I read about taking out the "staff" part of the Dire Flail.



A spiked-chain to me is about as cool as sword-boots

How "swordy" are we talking? Boots with toe spikes/claws have been around for a while.


or shoulder-pads with axes built into them.

Ever seen Aribeth's second set of armour in NWN? Yeah, weirdness over practicality. This one I'll agree is probably useless. Swords that pointed perpendicularly up from your shoulders(past your head, of course) however, I could definitely see being useful.


Or, maybe like a dagger connected to a dire-flail.

I could see that working. You'd need to spin the flail part one-handed, while simultaneously twirling the dagger end in the other.


Or a rope that you swing around, with a heavy crossbow attached to the end.

You'd need like a second string to pull the trigger. Reloading will require you to pull it back, of course.


No, no, an axe-helmet!

Again, axes are impractical to use with your main body. A spiked helmet on the other hand...


Or...a spiked cape!

Have you met these (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/5d/200px-Igniz.jpg) 2 guys (http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/p2/k/f/kf01p2043.jpg)?


No. A triple-bladed sword...

Marilith Scissorsword? From Savage Species.


or even a quadruple-bladed sword?!

I could see that working. Either some sort of cross design like a marionette's handle, or 2 double-ended swords attached by a chain at their staff parts.

[/quote]Yeah, a sword with 4 blades, connected by chain to a double-trident, which can merge with the sword to make the whole thing a masterwork "helicopter" sword.[/quote]

Now you're just being silly. The double-trident is entirely doable, however. Just tack a second fork to the back-end, and you're done!

[Inyssius Tor]

Yeah, a sword with 4 blades, connected by chain to a double-trident, which can merge with the sword to make the whole thing a masterwork "helicopter" sword.
Now you're just being silly. The double-trident is entirely doable, however. Just tack a second fork to the back-end, and you're done!

Nononono, it's like a really big shuriken with a chain stuck through the middle, and then you can screw the quadruple-bladed sword in on the side of the double-bladed trident (as a move-action?) and then you can throw it! The quadruple-sword would act as a stabilizing rotor, giving it a 150-foot range increment! Brilliant! :smallbiggrin: (Also, the flavor is perfect for that new supplement we're working on; perhaps the half-blue-elven evil-paladin Order of the Lawful Doom can have free EWP with it!)

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm here, I might as well nod to the topic with yet another take (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50110.jpg) on the spiked chain...

[Demented]

Ever seen Aribeth's second set of armour in NWN? Yeah, weirdness over practicality. This one I'll agree is probably useless. Swords that pointed perpendicularly up from your shoulders(past your head, of course) however, I could definitely see being useful.

A la the football charger from hell?
Axe blades would probably be better than swords, so long as they're bigger than your head. Though they'd cut into your peripheral vision. Spearpoints would be even better. Ram a guy, rip off the heads in his chest, unscrew the broken hafts, screw in replacement spearpoints, repeat.

[Tengu]

Axe helmet and shoulderpads, eh?

Go go, Gadget World of Warcraft!
http://www.goblinworkshop.com/gallery/albums/goaq/normal_Warrior.jpg

[Deus Mortus]

It's the can opener!

[Saph]

Three-section staffs are very good on the battlefield. They're like nunchaku, but easier to defend with, and they reach further.

I'm dubious about this one. I used to hang out with a group of people that spent a lot of time researching the self-defence applications of weird weapons, and nunchaku and tri-section staffs were two of the ones specifically mentioned as "don't use these, ever" weapons.

But they're still better than the PHB spiked chain.

- Saph

[Fhaolan]

What I think this all boils down to is this:

1) Nearly all weapons in the PHB could technically work, if they were designed properly. That doesn't mean they would have the stats given to them, of course. And very likely they would be 'demo' weapons, like a lot of martial art weapons.

2) Just because a weapon technically works, doesn't mean it's effective or efficient.

3) 90% of the artists who depict the weapons based on their descriptions are not weapon designers, martial artists, or combat experts, so when they draw these items, they look exceedingly silly. Just like those bizzare fantasy 'knives' you see in the knife shops. [I say 90%, because I know of at least one fantasy artist who *is* a martial artist and combat historian. Dameon Willich, who did a few Magic Cards and magazine illustrations. Unfortunately, he was not hired to do the PHB illustrations.]

[Deepblue706]

Holy crap. I was just rattling things off the top of my head! I had no idea some of that stupid stuff actually...

And, when I said sword boots, I meant like...longsword-boots.

[Peregrine]

The problem with a lot of these pictures is that they have spikes at both ends. The spiked chain is not a double weapon and I've yet to see anything but homebrew that lets you treat it like one. If they really have spikes at both ends, why isn't there an official splatbook ability letting you wield it without reach as a double weapon? A spiky dire flail, as it were.

Hey, let's throw in the Giant's impression of one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) while we're at it. :smallsmile:

Edit: Wait. Somehow I missed the whole second page of this thread, where both that comic and such a splatbook ability (PrC, actually) were referenced. Oops.

[Vodun]

@ whoever posted regarding two-bladed swords: yes, you can attack with one of these and not hit yourself. I've done it, and essentially like fighting with a large staff. Except that the staff has blades attatched to it.

Orc racial weapon?
The Stick

Well we've seen it can be used without hitting oneself, its easy enough to see that by using a staff like it or seeing Phantom Menace, but the question is can you hit someone with enough force to actually do a reasonable amount of damage?

[kellandros]

Well we've seen it can be used without hitting oneself, its easy enough to see that by using a staff like it or seeing Phantom Menace, but the question is can you hit someone with enough force to actually do a reasonable amount of damage?

My answer would be yes. A quarterstaff can have a powerful impact already, easily causing bruises or potentially breaking bones. Now take a similar amount of force and apply it on a single cutting edge...

[Cyborg Pirate]

Well we've seen it can be used without hitting oneself, its easy enough to see that by using a staff like it or seeing Phantom Menace, but the question is can you hit someone with enough force to actually do a reasonable amount of damage?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.


A double bladed sword is just another weapon in the long line of "Yeah it looks cool when you flourish it around, just don't bring one to a real fight and expect to live" type of weapons.




My answer would be yes. A quarterstaff can have a powerful impact already, easily causing bruises or potentially breaking bones. Now take a similar amount of force and apply it on a single cutting edge...

A quarterstaff won't break bones if you strike with it while having both hands on the center portion.

Aside from that, cutting weapons need to be swung precisely to make an effective cut.

[headwarpage]

A double bladed sword is just another weapon in the long line of "Yeah it looks cool when you flourish it around, just don't bring one to a real fight and expect to live" type of weapons.

But it's like a sword, only like, twice as good, 'cause it's like a double sword, so it's twice as awesome as just one sword.

Duh.

[Cyborg Pirate]

But it's like a sword, only like, twice as good, 'cause it's like a double sword, so it's twice as awesome as just one sword.

Duh.

Tss. We all know Dire Sword-Chucks win the universe! :smallbiggrin:

[kamikasei]

I feel this (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/82.html) is appropriate. Actually I'm surprised no one else has already referenced it.

[Cyborg Pirate]

I feel this (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/82.html) is appropriate. Actually I'm surprised no one else has already referenced it.

hahahaha :smallbiggrin:

Best thing is, he was right!

[Clementx]

A double bladed sword is just another weapon in the long line of "Yeah it looks cool when you flourish it around, just don't bring one to a real fight and expect to live" type of weapons.
You do know why, right? Because you are taking a -4 to hit because you don't have EWP.

Give a commoner a light crossbow and he might be able to hit something is he took his one proficiency in it. Give him a longbow and he is taking a -4 to twang his wrist and poke himself in the eye with the fletching of the arrow. I guess by your logic that means that longbows shouldn't exist, because they require training above and beyond the baseline to use.

As for the spiked chain being unbalanced, it is close. It is two damage dice and a crit lower than a greatsword, and exotic, which is worth one more increment, and does a slightly worse damage type. Finesseablitly is worth one (see rapier). Trip and disarm bonus is worth a second (see flail). Reach is worth one (see any reach weapon). So we have one "point" and some change left to cover the chain's other abilities. The designers thought that threatening at 5ft was worth it. The PHBII has a feat to shorten up on any reach weapon as a swift action. So it does a better job than a feat, but only for itself. Very close.

[Cyborg Pirate]

You do know why, right? Because you are taking a -4 to hit because you don't have EWP.

Give a commoner a light crossbow and he might be able to hit something is he took his one proficiency in it. Give him a longbow and he is taking a -4 to twang his wrist and poke himself in the eye with the fletching of the arrow. I guess by your logic that means that longbows shouldn't exist, because they require training above and beyond the baseline to use.


There's a difference between "Takes training to be effective" and "Nomatter how much you train with it, it's never going to be effective".

The longbow was a very effective weapon if you spent a long time training with it. As soon as other ranged weapons became more reliable and easier to manufacture, the longbow slowly faded from war use to sport use.

With a double bladed sword, you'll never, Ever be able to put as much force and accuracy behind a cut as you can with a normal sword. And believe me, people are Not easy to cut through. The only advantage of a double bladed sword is that you can attack with the back, an advantage easily replicated by taking any normal polearm and sticking a small spike on the back. A double bladed sword misses the advantage of a polearm however, in that it lacks reach. You're sacrificing power, weapon mobility (you lose out on many directions to cut from) and reach for no more advantage that all other polearms who do not sacrifice anything already have.

[Mewtarthio]

Axe helmet and shoulderpads, eh?

Go go, Gadget World of Warcraft!
http://www.goblinworkshop.com/gallery/albums/goaq/normal_Warrior.jpg

That has to be ceremonial. There's no way he actually charges into battle and nods vigourously at his enemies.


I'm dubious about this one. I used to hang out with a group of people that spent a lot of time researching the self-defence applications of weird weapons, and nunchaku and tri-section staffs were two of the ones specifically mentioned as "don't use these, ever" weapons.

But they're still better than the PHB spiked chain.

- Saph

I'm fairly certain that nunchucks were only used for threshing rice. It then became a misconception that ninjas used them to assassinate people (while disguised as farmers), and soon somebody created a "combat" set of nunchucks which were useless for threshing rice but could be used in a weapons drill (albeit probably not in combat).

Still, the three-section-staff did give us that coat hanger scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, so it can't be all bad.

[Saph]

I'm fairly certain that nunchucks were only used for threshing rice. It then became a misconception that ninjas used them to assassinate people (while disguised as farmers), and soon somebody created a "combat" set of nunchucks which were useless for threshing rice but could be used in a weapons drill (albeit probably not in combat).

Yeah. The conclusion these guys came to was that a lot of the things we think of as 'traditional Eastern weapons' were used not because they were especially effective but because they were farming implements that could be easily grabbed / explained away as tools (example - kamas).

Lengths of chain and nunchaku and tri-staffs are weapons in the same way that pool cues, beer bottles, and baseball bats are weapons. Just because you can hurt someone with it doesn't mean that it's something you want to bring to a battlefield. :)

- Saph

[Deus Mortus]

Why do people keep saying spiked chains can't work? I just told all of you that a friend of mine uses a chain to fight, except instead of spikes there are heavy balls on the ends and fighting that is like fighting a whirwind. I requires some more training to use then most weapons, but it is possible and better yet, it work well.

[AtomicKitKat]

Who cuts through people? Swords aren't for cutting through people, merely for making holes for their blood to leak from.

[Lapak]

Why do people keep saying spiked chains can't work? I just told all of you that a friend of mine uses a chain to fight, except instead of spikes there are heavy balls on the ends and fighting that is like fighting a whirwind. I requires some more training to use then most weapons, but it is possible and better yet, it work well.There is a fundamental difference between a blunt weight on a chain and spikes on a chain. A blunt weight you can grip if necessary as part of maintaining the weapon's movement and it will richochet from an impact in a predictable manner, allowing you to clobber someone and be ready for the next strike.

Spikes will pierce you if you try to grab them while in motion, and if you do poke someone with them your chain is now stuck in them and you've fouled your momentum and stopped the 'whirlwind' effect you're describing.

EDIT: Heck, if you hit a wooden object you've probably gotten yourself stuck without even injuring your opponent.

[Deus Mortus]

He uses the entire chain to wrap and defend, but I always imagine spiked chains having 3-4 larger and heavier links with spikes at the end, making it function like that.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Who cuts through people? Swords aren't for cutting through people, merely for making holes for their blood to leak from.

Actually, you want to cut tendons and nerves to disable limbs and cause so much pain the other can't continue. But even basic clothing can make it a lot harder to cut someone then when the skin if bare.

Not to mention that you have to land a good cutting blow on a moving person in combat, not on a dummy standing still.

Double bladed weapons are crap. If common sense and experience isn't enough, then look at history.



@Deus Mortus: It's nice that he can swing em around and all, but can he really fight with them? Can he retract, reposition and re-engage fast enough with his chains to effectively protect himself And hit an opponent?

From how you describe it, it seems to me that anyone with a sense of timing and easily move past the reach of his chains and attack.

[Deus Mortus]

Well I have about 11 years of experience with martial arts and 8-9 years with katana's, so let's agree I have a good sense of timing, I have my master title and tutor others, so if I don't have that, I'm going to get hurt :P

Now he can retract them by placing the flat of his hand against the chain on the outer side of himself and pushing it towards him while moving his hand along the chain, it's a bit harder when he's in the middle of a strike, but with a pull and at the very worst of situation a slight dodge he can extract it in a split second. Now he has more training with this then the uttermost basic, so he's rather quick with this and like I said, fighting him is like fighting a whirlwind. By the time you see an opening his pattern has already changed and there is no way someone is fast enough to quickly stab before your weapon is caught inside the chain.

Now there is a weakness and that is mobility, he can't move quickly, so to beat him I usually run around him and keep smacking his chain with the flat of my hand, which forces him to focus on gaining control of the chain and usually giving me a large enough opening.

So it isn't an unbeatable weapon, but unless you know what you're doing and are quick, you're going to loose, but the chain is extremely hard to use on a high level, but that's why it requires a feat. It usually takes a good student about 3 months to learn the basics of control (I'm in month 2 BTW, but only because it looks badass and I want to learn how to use as much weapons as possible ;) ) and years before you can use it like that, but that is no different from a sword.

I qould stat out a chain like this:

Double Meteor Hammer
Damage 1d8 x2 18-20 crit range bludgeoning
10 foot reach you can make trip attack +2 on attack rolls to disarm.
You can not power attack with the weapon, but if you use it with weapon finesse you gain a +5 on AC or a plus +5 on parry checks. You can't dualwield two chainlike weapons.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It's the problem with any chain or whip-like weapon- all the opponent has to do is wrap the thing around his own weapon to entirely negate your motion. A weight? That just makes it so any idiot can wrap it up by sticking their sword up near the end of the chain's swing. And while that does make your chain motions practically impossible, it doesn't stop the guy with a sword at all- he has a whole blade and tip that can kill you, and that chain can't be covering it all. Your only reasonable chance then requires you to pull his sword away from him. But he can do the exact same thing to you by yanking back with his sword, so it comes down to whoever's strongest.

Also, if the chain link were to catch on the ground and the sword-wielder had good enough aim, he could thrust through a chain link and break it without too much effort. It's a pretty silly idea to fight with a chain unless the chain isn't actually the weapon OR the handle, like in a medieval flail or chigirki. Your friend might look awesome wielding a chain and doing kata, but that doesn't mean he's effective in any way.

[Mike_G]

My issue is not that they have a chain as a weapon, even a spiked one. My issue is that they stated it better than almost any other weapon, when it's not better than most other melee weapons.




In order for spikes on a chain to be useful, there has to be mass behind them. Otherwise, they're only useful against people in light, or no, clothing.



And yet, it does the same damage as a longsword or battle axe. That's insane.



Putting mass behind them, and you're back to the 'no-staff' version of the dire flail. Or, since the version in the PHB is nominally *not* a double weapon, a staff-less regular flail. Which sends us back to the chinese Meteor weapon with spikes added to it. [As a note, a spiked Meteor would be silly, as a significant number of the maneuvers depend on being able to redirect the meteor's vectors by kicking it or something similar. Putting spikes on the meteor eliminates your ability to do that.]

Yet it's Finessable. And you can Power Attack. And use reach. Or not.


For those who mention Exotic Weapon Proficiency, yeah sure. It requires a feat, but two weapon fighting, which was used quite a bit in real life, and is effective and much easier to learn, requires a huge feat tree. Hell, just using a bastard sword one handed requires the same feat.

It's just over statted.

I can see a chain being used to trip, disarm, and entangle a foe, if you spend a lot of time learning it. More time invested than is worth it for a combat wepaon, but, sure, in a fantasy game or Jet Li movie. A length of chain will never do more damage to an armored enemy than a mace or axe.

And, even with training, it's just not as effective as a simpler weapon. Yes, a very skilled and trained chain figter can beat an average swordsman, but the best swordsmen in the world could eat the best chainfighters in the world for breakfast.

My problem with it is that it's mechanically good enough (in D&D) that a very odd, rare, and hard to learn weapon has become a standard build.

As a rare Monk weapon, sure. As a whip with slightly better damage, sure, but as the All The Advantages and None of The Drawbacks of Every Style it's overdone.

[Deus Mortus]

I suggest you try to block a good heavy chain while it's in swing, I tried it with two hands and I'm pretty strong, but I lost grip of sword and there is nothing you can do about it, unless you're superman you can't hold on. Also breaking the link with your sword? That will demolish your blade after 1 or 2 tries and I think the chain will probably be still in working order.

Let's make a little calculation, the chain he uses is 3 meters long and when he swing with it, he uses 1-2 meters of it, let's use the most favorable number 1 meter. Now the weights he uses are about 20 kg each. His average swings clock in on 18 m/s when he's using 2 meters of the chain, now he's using 1 meter so let's cut that down in half, meaning 9 m/s. At the moment of impact that would translate in 180N or the force of a normal sized person falling two meters upon your sword. Now I may have made some mistakes since I don't have the formula's handy, but there is no way in hell you can stop that without having to brace for it. He however doesn't need to, so that's a moment where you are just pushing and he can yank it back, your tactic might sound good in theory, but it won't work unless you are ridiculously strong and fast and from experience, that usually doesn't combine. I don't even want to think on how that will completely demolish my blade.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

If it's that heavy, then the solution is even easier- avoid it. The wielder can't possibly be strong enough to control the weapon if there's that much force behind it in order to redirect spent energy after being dodged, and changing the direction mid-swing would likewise be futile. The wielder is the center of their attack. The greatest motion is on the outside of the weapon, but the wielder needs to be able to counter this outward motion if he's to control the weapon in any way. Not to mention that he'd need to have his weapon already swinging for a few seconds before he gets into any fight as well- otherwise, there won't be much force behind it at all due to the weight and size of the thing. Especially since the portion that requires the outwards motion (the weight) will remain immobile until the rest of the chain is already moving quickly, making it an exceptionally unusable weapon at the start of any fight and in any situation where that weight might need to be redirected.

[Deus Mortus]

Actually it's quite agile with some training behind it, I was surprised by that, it's not so much about bluntly redirecting as changing the flow, with a few nudges at the right time at the right place you can change the whole direction. As of the start, well that is true, you need a good 10 seconds or so to get it started, 5 seconds if your strong, but you can allow yourself burst with the strength, even in long fights since once you start it you need almost no strength to control it, hell I've seen video's of people who used the weapon as a way to move, swing it hard enough with a heavier ball and let yourself get "pulled" away.

So yes, you don't want to get ambushed while wielding that weapon, but that is why you always carry a backup weapon ;)

All of this is making me want to go homebrew a PrC or perhaps a ToB style for spiked chain, hmmm...

[Deepblue706]

All of this is making me want to go homebrew a PrC or perhaps a ToB style for spiked chain, hmmm...

And I really, really wanna make my suit of armor:

Sword-Boots
Axe-Helmet
Axe-Shoulderpads
Spiked Cape

What else does it need...

hmm...

I guess I could just get some full plate, duct tape some more axes on it and call it a day.

[Vodun]

So it would take a hell of alot of effort to actually hurt a fellow with the two-bladed sword, or the spiked chain. the dire flail is simply laughable, from the way its drawn in the PHB, it looks like the gnome hooked hammer has to actually be spun all the way around to use both ends in one attack, the Orc double axs also lacks actual power behind it like the two-bladed sword, so what exactly were these fellows thinking when they made these weapons?

[Deepblue706]

Uh...the thinking part? Yeah, that didn't happen.

[Vodun]

Uh...the thinking part? Yeah, that didn't happen.

Well another thing Ive noticed was that alot of us arent weapons specialists, I know for certain that I'm not, and I was able to see that some of these weapons they've made were just plain silly and really hard to use, so Im wondering if they had any other reason than to include the weapons just for mechanics.

[Mewtarthio]

And I really, really wanna make my suit of armor:

Sword-Boots
Axe-Helmet
Axe-Shoulderpads
Spiked Cape

What else does it need...

hmm...

I guess I could just get some full plate, duct tape some more axes on it and call it a day.

Armor spikes. On the ends of longspears. That shoot bullets. Bullets with sword attached to them. That shoot lasers.

This discussion is reminding me of 8BT's Fighter--Sword-chucks, yo.

---

Re: The double swords

I think it all came from Darth Maul. His double weapon actually worked because lightsabers burn their opponents with a touch, so the ability to put decent strength behind the blow is more or less irrelevant. Of course, Maul's double lightsaber is probably infinitely inferior to just carrying a shorter lightsaber in your off-hand... which no Jedi ever apparently ever thinks of doing, despite their preternatural fighting skills.

[Fhaolan]

Well another thing Ive noticed was that alot of us arent weapons specialists, I know for certain that I'm not, and I was able to see that some of these weapons they've made were just plain silly and really hard to use, so Im wondering if they had any other reason than to include the weapons just for mechanics.

Some of us *are* weapon... well, I can't call myself an 'expert', but I do have what I consider a reasonable amount of experience with real medieval-style weapons.

I'm all for fantasy weapons. Some real-world weapons look awfully fantastic, and some specific martial-art weapons are very, very weird. So I don't have a problem with that.

I just think there was a serious disconnect between the people who statted out the weapons mechanically, the people who wrote the description text, and the people who drew them. In cases like the spiked chain, the three things don't line up much at all. The mechanics in the weapon table seem to indicate a weighted length of heavy razor-wire-equivalent that takes two hands to use. The description makes it sound like a light whip-like weapon (finessable) that you can choke up on to hit close targets. And every illustration of it makes it look like a double weapon that's twirled around by the fingertips. Any one of those things is fine, as far as I'm concerned. Silly perhaps, but within reason for a fantasy world. But they don't *match*. The illustrations look nothing like what the mechanics depict, and the text description just confuses the issue.

[WhiteHarness]

Three-section staffs are very good on the battlefield. They're like nunchaku, but easier to defend with, and they reach further.

Since when did three-section-staffs and nuchaku ever see use on the battlefield? They're single-combat weapons; there weren't ever any regiments of men trained with these things fielded by Chinese/Japanese armies. In fact, reading through a book on Chiese warfare...

http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Chinese-Warfare-300-900-History/dp/0415239540

...leads me to believe that Chinese armies have historically fielded units equipped with what are more or less the local versions of familiar weapons--spears, shields, swords, bows, etc. No three-section-staffs, no "monk's spades," no latajangs, no meteor hammers--none of the wacky "martial arts" weapons that tickle the "kewl p0w3rz" obsessed, cultural-tourist Western kids. Thus I conclude that most of these silly weapons were in fact not all that effective; if they were, then they'd have seen actual battlefield use. But they didn't, so...

[Deus Mortus]

But those ma weapons were used by martial artists, because they are harder to master and guess what, no one wants to RP a common grunt, they want to rp that unique hero.

[Mike_G]

I just think there was a serious disconnect between the people who statted out the weapons mechanically, the people who wrote the description text, and the people who drew them. In cases like the spiked chain, the three things don't line up much at all. The mechanics in the weapon table seem to indicate a weighted length of heavy razor-wire-equivalent that takes two hands to use. The description makes it sound like a light whip-like weapon (finessable) that you can choke up on to hit close targets. And every illustration of it makes it look like a double weapon that's twirled around by the fingertips. Any one of those things is fine, as far as I'm concerned. Silly perhaps, but within reason for a fantasy world. But they don't *match*. The illustrations look nothing like what the mechanics depict, and the text description just confuses the issue.


Exactly!!

If it's a light, finessable weapon, the damage should be lower, not more than a mace or axe, and you shouldn't be able to Power Attack.

If it's a big, heavy anchor chain with nails in it, you shouldn't be able to finesse it or quickly choke up to threaten close opponents.

No weapon should get all these abilities. I don't give a rodent's posterior how the "weapon points" thing for exotic works out. WOTC didn't include Fullblade or the Elven special swords in the 3.5 update, since they got the benefits of both light and heavy weapons. For some reason, they left the chain as is.

[Iron_Mouse]

Axe helmet and shoulderpads, eh?

Go go, Gadget World of Warcraft!
http://www.goblinworkshop.com/gallery/albums/goaq/normal_Warrior.jpg
The odd thing is, I can see this actually being useful. Not against humanoids, of course. But when fighting against huge monsters who try to swallow you or strike with "soft" natural weapons (bite, tentacles, fists and the like), some blades on your armor might be not such a bad idea.

Oh, someone HAS to make stats for this thing, now...

:smallsmile:

[AmoDman]

Armor spikes. On the ends of longspears. That shoot bullets. Bullets with sword attached to them. That shoot lasers.

This discussion is reminding me of 8BT's Fighter--Sword-chucks, yo.

---

Re: The double swords

I think it all came from Darth Maul. His double weapon actually worked because lightsabers burn their opponents with a touch, so the ability to put decent strength behind the blow is more or less irrelevant. Of course, Maul's double lightsaber is probably infinitely inferior to just carrying a shorter lightsaber in your off-hand... which no Jedi ever apparently ever thinks of doing, despite their preternatural fighting skills.

It's been awhile, but didn't Obi-Wan fight with two light sabers after Qui-Gon died? I've done it KOTOR. You don't need a lighter weapon in the off-hand...light sabers are already light enough (pun un-intended...it's just that they are made of pure energy).

[Mike_G]

But those ma weapons were used by martial artists, because they are harder to master and guess what, no one wants to RP a common grunt, they want to rp that unique hero.

A lot of martial art weapons were adopted not because they were better than the typical martial weapons of the era, but because peasants weren't supposed to be carrying weapons.

Now, you can't outlaw sticks or grain flails or sickles from an agricultural peasant society, so they could keep these things and learn how to use them.

I think a Shaolin monk who was given a longsword to train with for years, using centuries of drill and techniques handed down from other monks, would be a more effective fighter than the same monk with a Kama. Or Meteor hammer or Nunchucks. Look at the Katana Fanboy Cult. That derives from the awe in the way a group of warriors used a weapon they trained with from childhood. I'd put odds on the Samurai over the peasant with the grain flail any day.

[WhiteHarness]

The idea that these weapons didn't see use in war because it takes lots of training to use them, and armies were compopsed of untrained peasant grunts (not true; in fact, many of their soldiers were professionals) is the argument that the Asian martial arts fans usually fall back on when you question the real-world effectiveness of their favorite weapons.

I don't buy it. Ancient and Medieval China had plenty of horse archers. Being an effective horseback archer takes many years of training--possibly more than it takes to be able to do all that flipping around one sees in Asian martial arts exhibitions. If fighting with a meteor hammer, three-section-staff, or any of those crazy weapons really yielded good battlefield results, then Chinese generals would have had their men train with those weapons, just like they had their men train to be good horse-archers.

On top of that, I question the ability of most such weapons to actually cause injury to a man in armour. The only exception is the meteor hammer, and I've yet to see any evidence that this thing even existed in ancient/medieval China; I think it's a fairly recent invention of the martial arts crowd. Staffs, three-section or otherwise, don't kill armoured men. Period. If they did, then people the world over wouldn't have bothered putting spearheads on the ends of them. I've got a set of plate armour:

http://www.mediumaevum.com/josh/Miscpics1%20033b.jpg

I often get struck with SCA rattan weapons, plenty of which (thicker polearms and greatswords especially) approximate being hit with a staff. I've yet to get anything worse than a light bruise. You can't reliably kill an armoured man with a staff, nunchaku, latajang, etc. That's why these things didn't see use on real-world battlefields. The only reason these things enjoy so much popularity today is because they appeal to the overstimulated teenager who is bored with more common sword, axes, and spears.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It's also important to note that a lot of martial art weapons were never developed for use in combat- they were meant entirely for kata. I remember learning this lesson well with Wing Chun- much of what I was taught wasn't actually viable in any situation where I'd need to save my own skin. This was instead practiced because it helped hone the mind and bring the practicioner closer to the Buddhist ideal of inner peace. It really hit me, and brought me to question the teachers and learn this, when I was told to start practicing ribbon dancing. One of those moments when you just look at the thing in your hands and go "...what."

Asian martial arts weren't truly developed for fighting- that's just a synergy bonus. They were made to be graceful, delicate, and require a lot of concentration. People just get the wrong impression from how dangerous such fluid motions look.

[Fhaolan]

It really hit me, and brought me to question the teachers and learn this, when I was told to start practicing ribbon dancing. One of those moments when you just look at the thing in your hands and go "...what."


I'm sorry, but that wins the Funniest Thing Fhaolan's Read Today Award. Congratulations. :smallsmile:

[Deus Mortus]

Indeed, I never meant to say that a longsword isn't more dangerous, I practice my martial art because it centers me and it's fun.

What I meant to say is that people want to play memorable unique heroes in DnD and a unique weapon helps with that image, sure it isn't as effective, but it makes for a memorable char.

[Krellen]

I've got a set of plate armour[.] I often get struck with SCA rattan weapons, plenty of which (thicker polearms and greatswords especially) approximate being hit with a staff. I've yet to get anything worse than a light bruise. You can't reliably kill an armoured man with a staff, nunchaku, latajang, etc. That's why these things didn't see use on real-world battlefields.
Well, to be fair, the armour available to the medieval japanese was not up to the level of plate armour. For that matter, the armour available to the medieval Europeans wasn't up to the level of plate armour, which came about more in the High Medieval/Renaissance period. To really explain why you didn't see wooden weapons used on battlefields, you'd have to compare it to chainmail (a Dark Age technology, far more widespread on European battlefields.) Of course, against chainmail, you do see similar results, but bringing up plate armour is just unfair. :smallbiggrin:

[Viscount Einstrauss]

By the end of the medieval ages in Europe, you really had just a handful of excellent weapons that dominated combat- swords (and particularly longswords) being the most popular, followed by in order of their usefullness: bow-and-arrows, lances, polearms, and morningstars. Axes and flails weren't unheard of, but were generally uncommon and made up less than 1% of most armies.

Meanwhile, in Asia, you had longswords and shortswords. But they were actually the uncommon ones. Instead, soldiers were usually equipped with polearms and bow-and-arrows mostly, due to their effectiveness against soft-targets. Axes, morningstars, lances, and flails were practically non-existant, since their usefullness was against heavily armored foes. Few in Asia could afford heavy armor or the more metal-based weaponry (like swords) since their metal quality was vastly inferior, and often harder to come by, then in Europe.

So, come to think of it, some fantasy weapons might actually be decent in an Asian setting due to the rarity of proper defensive equipment and heavy reliance on polearms for melee.

[AtomicKitKat]

Polearms were more popular in East Asia for pretty much the same reasons t hey were popular in Ancient Rome and Medieval Europe. They don't take much training("While holding your pointy stick, thrust your arm forwards and down, to about groin height." "Bring your arm back as far as you can, then thrust forwards as hard as you can." etc.), and they can be used in tight formations, due to a narrow arc of motion. Most of the "fantastic"(as in, belonging to a "fantasy") weapons require enormous amounts of room to swing, whether it be over your head, or around your shoulder. This makes them impractical for tight formations of troops, but fairly effective for zone control, when you want people to not get closer than about 2-5 feet away.

[Norsesmithy]

Let's make a little calculation, the chain he uses is 3 meters long and when he swing with it, he uses 1-2 meters of it, let's use the most favorable number 1 meter. Now the weights he uses are about 20 kg each. His average swings clock in on 18 m/s when he's using 2 meters of the chain, now he's using 1 meter so let's cut that down in half, meaning 9 m/s. At the moment of impact that would translate in 180N or the force of a normal sized person falling two meters upon your sword. Now I may have made some mistakes since I don't have the formula's handy, but there is no way in hell you can stop that without having to brace for it. He however doesn't need to, so that's a moment where you are just pushing and he can yank it back, your tactic might sound good in theory, but it won't work unless you are ridiculously strong and fast and from experience, that usually doesn't combine. I don't even want to think on how that will completely demolish my blade.
I am sorry but I have to call shenanagans. TWO 44lb weights at the end of two 6 foot lenths of chain!?!

Unless his name is Braham the Bull, and he weighs a (muscular) short ton, he would not be able to exert enough force to strike with alacrity, precision, power, or without completely telegraphing his intention.

Perhaps he could accomplish one of the four, but that isn't good enough in a fight, you need at least three, and you prefer four.

Besides, weights on chains are generally poor because they don't transfer the energy fom the weight to the "Haft" section of chain particularly well, and if you can't do that, you can't really threaten anyone who steps inside the arc of the weight itself. The chain will coil around your attacker sure, but by the time it coils and hits him, it has lost mush of its energy, and your attacker gets to chose where it hits him, not you, so he could choose to let it strike his sheild, while he guts you with his sword.

Besides, some of us fight with swords that are a meter or two meters, and that would allow us to strike him without having to traverse the small threatened sphere.

I am a big guy, from a family of big guys, and noone I know could do what you claim your friend does, not for lack of training, but for lack of personal inertia.

[SpiderBrigade]

Yeah, the 20 kg weight seems...wow, a lot. Not to mention being extremely ungainly. Some people would have trouble lifting one 20 kg weight in one hand, let alone tossing two such objects around on the end of a chain.

Most descriptions I can find of the weapon seem to put the weight at about the size of a large egg, which could NOT weigh 20 kg unless it were made of iridium or something (which, actually, would be a very funny thing to make a meteor hammer out of. You could call your main attack move the Chicxulub Strike or something :smallbiggrin:) 20 kg of iron, unless I missed my math, is a cube roughly 14 cm on a side. That's HUGE.

A few sites that I found list each weight at 0.26 kg, which seems a lot more likely.

[AtomicKitKat]

Hmm. I suspect 1 of two things. Either the poster meant 20 lbs, which is still pretty heavy(just not insanely so), or the entire length of chain, plus the weights, is 20 kg.

[PnP Fan]

What *is* a spiked chain? (looking at the phb picture)
In a word. . . stupid. It falls into the same category as many (not all) of the double ended weapons. Damn Lucas and his stupid (yet visually stunning) Darth Maul character (who didn't use hammers at all. . . *sigh*). Much (not all) of what Maul did in that movie was similar to the staff style of Okinawa (dog paddle for parries, poking for strikes), and that works fine, for farmers who have to defend themselves from time to time. One of the big advantages of a RL staff is that you can get significant reach over your opponent (presumably using a sword), without losing much power and speed. The big advantage of a cutting blade is that you can put all of your momentum/strength into it, aim it right, and get a good solid kill in one strike. It is very difficult to put your strength/speed into a blade, when there is a spike/blade swinging right back at you. So your double axes? stupid. double swords? stupid. double lightsabers? extra stupid, because you can't even orient the blades 90 degrees from each other, stupid lightsabers cut in any direction! hooked hammers? mm spike in my wrist/side as I hammer the guy in the head? stupid. About the only one that I could look at and see using is the Urgrosh. At least when you swing the axe, you aren't going to get poked by the spear, and vice versa. Oh and the spiked chain? Maybe if it was a kusari gama (like others have said, or the manriki gusama, which I think is esentially the same weapon, just a different name) One of the big complaints I've heard from people who have watched/trained with chains, is that in the beginning you tend to get wrapped up/smacked in the head with your own chain (nunchaku anyone? and that's just a short length of chain!). And it hurts! Never mind that the weight of the chain wouldn't drive the spikes into anything. the chain would just turn over on its side (perhaps some scratches, but nothing deep) and y'know, be a chain wrapped around something. Yeah, stupid.
Does this mean it's not fun to play with? no, of course not. they look cool and menacing, and so they increase the tension (especially if you've seen the spiked chain build), and so they are still fun, especially in the hands of the DM ('cause the cheese will either be gone when you kill it, or the cheese will be a recuring source of xp ;-)
Why do people rail against these ridiculous weapons when wizzies can change reality? Because we've got no physical basis for magic. As soon as you say "magic" that explains away whatever nonsense follows. When you create something that common sense should dictate is "stupid" in the form of a physical thing (weapons in this case), the alarms start going off.

[Awetugiw]

The problem is pretty much that in order to somewhat believe in what is happening in game, one usually has to be able to "see" it happening.

A wizard tossing a firebal out of his fingertips? Sure, I can see that happening. It's not realistic, but it is not too hard to get a mental image of it. Greatsword? No problem. It may not be that effecitve in real life, but I can approximately imagine the moves the charater does.

Now the spiked chain. It depends somewhat on what type is used (there really are a lot of different "spiked chains" out there), but with spiked chains it is much harder to see what the character is actually doing.

[AmoDman]

Here's another version
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ph2_gallery/97166.jpg
This one should make some sense too


I think this earlier posted picture was the best along with, seriously, The Giant's comic. Here's a martial arts weighted chain -

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3930/mr4nf5.jpg

Why couldn't you get a nice, heavy chain and replace the weighted ends with a mass of larger linls and spikes to smack into people and pull back. I think the two ends in the picture, practical or not, is to utilize either end while you pull the former back. It's possible...but I'd say very tiring, manipulating that chain like that. *shrugs*

[Vodun]

The funniest thing about Darth Maul's lightsaber is that it seems MORE feasable as a combat weapon than the two-bladed sword, considering he didnt have to put very much strength at all into it to cut something, he didnt need to orient the blades cutting edges, and he didnt need to turn the thing to block with the flats of the blades. But of course there is the whole thing about having to be an individual thats been relentlessly trained, even through torture, and having to have a connection to the force. Well shucks.

but this brings me to an idea for a weapon that would be EXCELLENT for DnD. There have been polymers and compounds created in the Star Wars universe that are capable of somewhat resisting lightsabers, so what if you made a whip out of said polymers, and attatched a lightsaber to the end? IT WOULD BE FANTASTIC. ALMOST AS COOL AS THE DIRE FLAIL. Just change tech to magic, and WotC would eat that right up.

[Fawsto]

I think that, even being a stupid point of view, that a spiked chain is merely a dire flail with more reach and less damage. The broken thing is the finesse, that I don't believe that should be applied, since the weapon needs momentum to damage, not "skill" like a whip does.

[AtomicKitKat]

I think that, even being a stupid point of view, that a spiked chain is merely a dire flail with more reach and less damage. The broken thing is the finesse, that I don't believe that should be applied, since the weapon needs momentum to damage, not "skill" like a whip does.

Finessing it seems far more likely than Power Attacking, if only because anytime a weapon threatens to take its own wielder's head off, the wielder has to concentrate more on dodging/manipulating than putting the "full force" of the weapon behind it. Especially for such a "soft form" weapon as a chain.

[Jack Mann]

Finesse isn't particularly broken here. You're rarely going to want to use it with the spiked chain. If you're using a spiked chain, the odds are that you want to trip people, in which case you need high strength, and are better off without weapon finesse.

Now, whether or not you feel it makes sense... That's up to you. But the spiked chain is by no means a broken or unbalanced weapon, mechanically.

[Tack122]

Just a few things people have been mentioning about the star wars universe.

In the newest series of novels out, Luke Skywalker has taken to carrying around a short lightsaber called a shoto which he uses to counteract the lightwhip carried Lumiya.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightwhip
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shoto
for reference.

[Vodun]

Oh dear...they made the whole thing a lightsaber.
Again, I suppose the excuse they have is that jedi are insanely well trained and in tune with the force.

[AmoDman]

Finesse isn't particularly broken here. You're rarely going to want to use it with the spiked chain. If you're using a spiked chain, the odds are that you want to trip people, in which case you need high strength, and are better off without weapon finesse.

I just built and submitted a swordsage that has the Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade feats...that's DEX to HIT and DMG when in a Shadows Hand stance...just sayin'...

p.s. Now that I think about, KOTOR had short lightsabers as well, but I just screwed that and carried two full-bladed ones. I don't think a shorter ones, as I've said, would even be necessary...cause it'd be, like,the same weight as the longer.

[kamikasei]

p.s. Now that I think about, KOTOR had short lightsabers as well, but I just screwed that and carried two full-bladed ones. I don't think a shorter ones, as I've said, would even be necessary...cause it'd be, like,the same weight as the longer.

I believe the idea was that they were actually smaller, because only usable in one hand, so they had a shorter hilt. A bit like Palpatine's saber from RotS.

[Mewtarthio]

Just a few things people have been mentioning about the star wars universe.

In the newest series of novels out, Luke Skywalker has taken to carrying around a short lightsaber called a shoto which he uses to counteract the lightwhip carried Lumiya.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightwhip
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shoto
for reference.

Light...whip? I've heard of such a monstrosity before, but... how? Lightsabers are made by focusing energy, right? How do you focus it into a whip shape?


p.s. Now that I think about, KOTOR had short lightsabers as well, but I just screwed that and carried two full-bladed ones. I don't think a shorter ones, as I've said, would even be necessary...cause it'd be, like,the same weight as the longer.

I'm no weapons expert, but it seems to me a shorter lightsaber blade means that it won't interfere with your primary lightsaber when you swing it around. I imagine you could parry with the main blade while quickly thrusting with the shorter one (or vice versa, I suppose, but strength and efficient force don't matter as much with lightsabers). Also, since it's in the off hand, a Jedi probably won't want to focus on it quite as much, and keeping the blade shorter gives you more control over what you hit (compare shining a laser pointer into your hand to shining it at the other side of a room). The main downside would be an opponent who comes at you in a rage, wielding the lightsaber with both hands. Since strength does matter when you get blades crossed, a strong blow would be harder to parry with one hand.

[alchahest]

I suggest you try to block a good heavy chain while it's in swing, I tried it with two hands and I'm pretty strong, but I lost grip of sword and there is nothing you can do about it, unless you're superman you can't hold on. Also breaking the link with your sword? That will demolish your blade after 1 or 2 tries and I think the chain will probably be still in working order.

Let's make a little calculation, the chain he uses is 3 meters long and when he swing with it, he uses 1-2 meters of it, let's use the most favorable number 1 meter. Now the weights he uses are about 20 kg each. His average swings clock in on 18 m/s when he's using 2 meters of the chain, now he's using 1 meter so let's cut that down in half, meaning 9 m/s. At the moment of impact that would translate in 180N or the force of a normal sized person falling two meters upon your sword. Now I may have made some mistakes since I don't have the formula's handy, but there is no way in hell you can stop that without having to brace for it. He however doesn't need to, so that's a moment where you are just pushing and he can yank it back, your tactic might sound good in theory, but it won't work unless you are ridiculously strong and fast and from experience, that usually doesn't combine. I don't even want to think on how that will completely demolish my blade.




so this weapon is 40 kilograms + the weight of a 3 meter chain strong enough to not break when striking something with the forces generated by swinging it against a hard target?

wow. that's 88 pounds of metal. before adding in the weight of the chain. that's like eleven two handed swords. wow. he must have arms like the hulk

[EvilElitest]

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm here, I might as well nod to the topic with yet another take (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50110.jpg) on the spiked chain...

This one lacks the rings, and the freaky mace ends, this might makes sense.

There are two pic i know that people would like, but they are from really obstere books. I bought both of these at a yard sale. If anyone ever saw teh everquest player's handbook (No i am not kidding they made it. And i don't even play everquest) their spike chain is the crazy retarted thing i ever say.
Their is some weapon book, ill look up the title later, that has a good two handed sword. Unlike the one in the PHB, this one is more like a pole with two spear/sword ends.
from,
EE

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I tried practicing with a two-bladed sword once. I wouldn't reccommend it. Kata was just fine and sort of pretty with it, but dueling was another matter. My biggest problem was my hands- namely, blocking was almost impossible with either end of the weapon due to how I needed to flip it around constantly to execute attacks, so blocking duties ended up falling upon the middle of the weapon- where I was holding it. Except unlike with a bo, I couldn't shift my hands in order to make that blocking area wider.

A few bloody fingers later, I decided it was a retarded weapon idea and went back to twin short swords. Which is infinitely superior.

[AtomicKitKat]

Increase the tangs, reduce the length of actual "blade". Otherwise, your only other choice is to increase the overall length of the weapon, which sort of alters the effectiveness(you basically get a spear)

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I did consider that, but I didn't have the time/patience to test it. I'd built the first one myself using two wasters and an extra haft for the grip. The grip I'd used was two feet long, and the wasters were sized as shortswords (around 60 cm each after I removed the hilts, I'd imagine). So, the weapon was around six feet in total length. I designed it to look like most fantasy books have it portrayed.

Of course, that's probably where I went wrong.

[Mike_G]

I did consider that, but I didn't have the time/patience to test it. I'd built the first one myself using two wasters and an extra haft for the grip. The grip I'd used was two feet long, and the wasters were sized as shortswords (around 60 cm each after I removed the hilts, I'd imagine). So, the weapon was around six feet in total length. I designed it to look like most fantasy books have it portrayed.

Of course, that's probably where I went wrong.

I could see a two bladed sword work if it were basically a 4' staff with a shortsword on either end. You have the ability to shift your hands and change grip like a staff, block with the center if you wanted, and have enough unstabby bit to place against your body if need be. You'd be less likely to hurt yourself. Not unlikely, but less likely.

But the way it's usually drawn, like two longswords welded together at the tang, is very unwieldy and pretty much a bad idea.

[Fhaolan]

In the live steel stage combat troupe I work with we have a thingy that the fight director/head instructor calls a 'glaive'. I put quotes around it because it doesn't match the glaive as I understand it from any historical source.

Basically, it's what we do with broken swords. Since most of our steel swords break on the tang (because the tang is made stupid on most re-enactment blades), what we have is usually a full sword blade with no way to attach it to a grip. So, we usually take something like an axe hande/pick handle, put a slot in it, drive the broken blade into that, and rivet it in place. So, we end up with a full sword blade on a long handle. I've made several of these things for our group, including one that looks an *awful* lot like the elven pole-weapons you see in the Lord of the Rings movie.

There's a point to this, wait for it. :smallsmile:

One of the ladies in our group (We're about 50% women, which is apparantly unusual for a medieval-style jousting/fighting troupe.) broke one of her curved blades, and asked one of the people who makes a living building pollaxes for renfaire sales to do something unusual. He took the long curved blade, and a matching short curved blade, and made a two-ended glaive out of it. The pole for it is somewhere around 4-5 feet long. The short blade faces backwards to the main blade, so it looks something like a S.

It works surprisingly well, though the owner says that she'd rather have double swords. If I was to guess, I would say that it's the length of the pole that makes the difference. 4-5 feet of pole gives you enough room to move your hands around. It's more of a pole-weapon, really.

So, that's the only way I've found that makes a double-sword work. If you build it like a double-ended poleweapon.

Just to add to the fun, one of the guys in the group has a double-ended bec de corbin. It also works reasonably well, but isn't as good as double-weapons are depicted in D&D. In order to get both heads in play,you have to effectively choke up on the weapon, so you loose range and leverage (strength of attack) to gain rate of attacks.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I might try that the next time I buy wasters. It basically sounds like a bo where end strikes happen to be more lethal.

All in all, though, it seems more like a gimmick.

[Fhaolan]

I might try that the next time I buy wasters. It basically sounds like a bo where end strikes happen to be more lethal.

All in all, though, it seems more like a gimmick.

Yah, you've got the concept down. It's like a lot of modern 'martial art weapons'. They're not really as effective as they look, because to gain that coolness-factor, they actually loose some effectiveness.

It's like what I tell the newbies in the stage combat group. There are reasons some weapons are only used by 'martial artists' in katas, and not by professional soldiers of the period. Fantasy weapons with serrations and multi-blades and flippy bits are all cute looking, but a plain bearded axe is far more effective.

[PnP Fan]

Agreed! both Fhaolan and VE!
I'd thought about extending the length of the handle in the weapon (for your two ended swords/axes/etc. . . and come up with what amounted to an elaborate two ended spear in most cases.
This actually brings up another related question. .. .
Pole arms. . . . Basically a staff with a blade of some sort on the end. Some staves are longer than others, depending on the historical use of the weapon, but still basically a stick. Okay, when I learned to use a staff (bo and jo), you generally use both ends of the thing, as well as the length of the staff. Why is it that I need a special feat (Complete Warrior I think) to use the blunt end of a polearm as an off-hand weapon. I understand that in some cases, typically because of length, this may be impractical, but I'm thinking the halberd in particular ought to do just fine as a two ended weapon. As far as the cases where it is impractical, well, no one would train that way in the first place
Sorry if this isn't exactly clear, it's late, and I"m checking the forum before sleep overtakes.

[AtomicKitKat]

This actually brings up another related question.
Pole arms. . . . Basically a staff with a blade of some sort on the end. Some staves are longer than others, depending on the historical use of the weapon, but still basically a stick. Okay, when I learned to use a staff (bo and jo), you generally use both ends of the thing, as well as the length of the staff. Why is it that I need a special feat (Complete Warrior I think) to use the blunt end of a polearm as an off-hand weapon. I understand that in some cases, typically because of length, this may be impractical, but I'm thinking the halberd in particular ought to do just fine as a two ended weapon. As far as the cases where it is impractical, well, no one would train that way in the first place
Sorry if this isn't exactly clear, it's late, and I"m checking the forum before sleep overtakes.

I think because the majority of polearms are used in tight quarters/formations, so they're generally taught to either slash down, or poke forwards, always with the "business end". It takes someone with some free time(like an adventurer) to devote the energy(Feat slot) to pick up the basics of using the butt-end. What sucks is how they only give you 1 additional attack with it.

[Fhaolan]

Agreed! both Fhaolan and VE!
I'd thought about extending the length of the handle in the weapon (for your two ended swords/axes/etc. . . and come up with what amounted to an elaborate two ended spear in most cases.
This actually brings up another related question. .. .
Pole arms. . . . Basically a staff with a blade of some sort on the end. Some staves are longer than others, depending on the historical use of the weapon, but still basically a stick. Okay, when I learned to use a staff (bo and jo), you generally use both ends of the thing, as well as the length of the staff. Why is it that I need a special feat (Complete Warrior I think) to use the blunt end of a polearm as an off-hand weapon. I understand that in some cases, typically because of length, this may be impractical, but I'm thinking the halberd in particular ought to do just fine as a two ended weapon. As far as the cases where it is impractical, well, no one would train that way in the first place
Sorry if this isn't exactly clear, it's late, and I"m checking the forum before sleep overtakes.

Okay, I've dealt with a lot of polearms in RL, and relative to this question they break down into two categories: Short and Long.

Halberds, Bardiches, Pollaxes and so on are short polearms. Staff length from 4' to 7' long or so. In RL, you *do* use the butt end, and some polearms even come with a spike on the butt that you can use as a spearhead. These weapons were common in one-on-one combat during tourneys, so many of the surviving fight manuals from the period go into a lot of detail about using the butt of the pollaxe. Just to reinforce this, according to what we've been able to figure out, the Viking and Greek methods of spear fighting (Shield + Spear) uses a lot of butt strikes as well.

Spetums, partisans, voulges, and so on are long polearms. Staff lengths in to 8' to 10' range, or more in the case of pikes. Technically, you could use the butt end, but the length of the staff means it's just too slow to bring the butt end around. It's not feasable. These weapons are pretty much *always* used in formation fighting, as one-on-one with a weapon this long is fairly silly. In D&D terms, these would be reachweapons.