Optimizing a Tenebrous Apostate with Urpriest

[Bad Wolf]

So I'm making a BinderX/UrpriestX/Tenebrous ApostateX build, partly for liking the fluff, partly for seeing how long it takes for me to become an unholy abomination in the eyes of Good-aligned religions. What's the best way to make this character?

[Troacctid]

Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5

Use the Improved Binding feat for early access to Tenebrous.

[Zilzmaer]

Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5

Use the Improved Binding feat for early access to Tenebrous.

This; follow up with Bone Knight, and dual bind Acererak. You will, for all practical purposes, be undead without changing your type. Build here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240008-3-5-Triad-of-Shadows

[WhamBamSam]

You need spellcraft as a class skill somehow to enter Ur-Priest from Binder 5. The two ways from this list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6832.0) are Keeper of Forbidden Lore, which requires Int 13, which you'll need anyway because of all the skill points you'll need to get into Ur-Priest, and Aereni Focus which is an Eberron regional feat for elf subraces. I'd probably go with Keeper of Forbidden Lore on a human personally, especially as it's sort of novel to use an Abyssal Heritor feat for something other than the mid-point in a chaos shuffle. It looks as though the Bone Knight build that Zilzamer linked does that as well.

If your DM allows the Divine Anima Mage adaptation, take that after finishing Tenebrous Apostate. Otherwise, any decent casting PrC will work. The Bone Knight recommendation is a decent one.

[Bad Wolf]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Think I'll go with Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Divine Anima Mage 2/Binder 3/Ur-Priest 3. If I've done my math right, that gives me full casting with divine spell resistance and steal SLA for Ur-Priest, with immunity to energy drain and negative levels on my Binder side. I can bind two additional vestiges (one's permanently occupied with Tenebrous) of up to seventh level.

Okay, so I'll need Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Spell Focus (Evil), Improved Binding, and Iron Will. Any other recommendations for feats?

[WhamBamSam]

Okay, so I'll need Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Spell Focus (Evil), Improved Binding, and Iron Will. Any other recommendations for feats?Divine Defiance is a great one for divine casters bound to Tenebrous. Once per 5 rounds you get a free counterspell as an immediate action. DMM Persist is a classic, and Tenebrous makes each Persist one Rebuke cheaper. Persist is even better if you can take Divine Anima Mage, as you'll get a few free metamagic uses per day.

Note that you can get Improved Binding as your Bonus Feat at Binder 4 and might be able to get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole.

Also, since you have a high enough EBL for a second bind, you can use Naberius to heal the ability damage from Corrupt Spells. Lahm's Finger Darts is a nasty one.

[Bad Wolf]

Divine Defiance is a great one for divine casters bound to Tenebrous. Once per 5 rounds you get a free counterspell as an immediate action. DMM Persist is a classic, and Tenebrous makes each Persist one Rebuke cheaper. Persist is even better if you can take Divine Anima Mage, as you'll get a few free metamagic uses per day.

Note that you can get Improved Binding as your Bonus Feat at Binder 4 and might be able to get Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole.

Also, since you have a high enough EBL for a second bind, you can use Naberius to heal the ability damage from Corrupt Spells. Lahm's Finger Darts is a nasty one.

Huh, forgot about the bonus feats. Okay, if I find an Otyugh Hole and choose Improved Binding as a bonus feat, that leaves me with Spell Focus (Evil) and Keeper of Forbidden Lore that need to be taken. And I'm going to take Nonconbatant as a flaw (it's basically a redeemable ticket for one bonus feat for a non-gish) and some other one (or two) that leaves me with...7 or 8 feats over 20 levels.

Persist seems a little..rebuke-intensive, as each use would cost me seven rebukes. Divine Defiance seems good, though. Is there any other good divine feats?

Ouch, Finger Darts seems nasty. I'll be sure to prepare that.

[Ryuuk]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Think I'll go with Binder 5/Ur-Priest 2/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Divine Anima Mage 2/Binder 3/Ur-Priest 3. If I've done my math right, that gives me full casting with divine spell resistance and steal SLA for Ur-Priest, with immunity to energy drain and negative levels on my Binder side. I can bind two additional vestiges (one's permanently occupied with Tenebrous) of up to seventh level.

Okay, so I'll need Keeper of Forbidden Lore, Spell Focus (Evil), Improved Binding, and Iron Will. Any other recommendations for feats?

Quick note, Tenebrous Apostate and Divine Anime Mage would advance Soul Binding (+Number of vestiges bound) and Divine Casting. That's it. The other class features, like Soul Guardian and Steal SLA are bound to their respective classes, and you don' get them unless you reach say Ur-Priest 10 for Steal SLA or Binder 13 for Soul guardian (immune to energy drain and negative levels).

[WhamBamSam]

Huh, forgot about the bonus feats. Okay, if I find an Otyugh Hole and choose Improved Binding as a bonus feat, that leaves me with Spell Focus (Evil) and Keeper of Forbidden Lore that need to be taken. And I'm going to take Nonconbatant as a flaw (it's basically a redeemable ticket for one bonus feat for a non-gish) and some other one (or two) that leaves me with...7 or 8 feats over 20 levels.

Persist seems a little..rebuke-intensive, as each use would cost me seven rebukes. Divine Defiance seems good, though. Is there any other good divine feats?

Ouch, Finger Darts seems nasty. I'll be sure to prepare that.Well, six actually, since one Rebuke can come from Tenebrous each time. But yeah, it does sorta burn through them. Extra Turning and a Nightstick would help.

Your CL will be low, so Practiced Spellcaster and Divine Spell Power would be good choices.

[Bad Wolf]

Well, six actually, since one Rebuke can come from Tenebrous each time. But yeah, it does sorta burn through them. Extra Turning and a Nightstick would help.

Your CL will be low, so Practiced Spellcaster and Divine Spell Power would be good choices.

Ah, thanks for the advice. Well, that's everything, I think. Thanks for all the help.

[Chronos]

For divine feats, you really want ones that only cost one turn/rebuke each, so you can power them entirely with your free Tenebrous turns, and you also want ones that you don't mind waiting 5 rounds each time. I recommend Sacred Healing (the version from Complete Divine, not PHB2), to heal your party up completely between combats, and Divine Vigor (also Complete Divine), to get +10 move speed and temporary HP.

[Troacctid]

Healing Devotion is probably better than Sacred Healing since it's an immediate action to use, so you just always have fast healing all the time.

[Bad Wolf]

Yeah, I'm definitely getting Healing Devotion, even if it may not fit fluff wise. With Tenebrous's rebuking ability, I may as well have permanent fast healing. I'll pick up Divine Vigor, thanks for the suggestion.

...Ever look down at what you're doing and realize you've crossed the fine line between optimizing and munchkining?

[Ellowryn]

Yeah, I'm definitely getting Healing Devotion, even if it may not fit fluff wise. With Tenebrous's rebuking ability, I may as well have permanent fast healing. I'll pick up Divine Vigor, thanks for the suggestion.

...Ever look down at what you're doing and realize you've crossed the fine line between optimizing and munchkining?

And thats when you know the dish is done. :smallbiggrin:

[Bad Wolf]

And thats when you know the dish is done. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I guess it is. Got the build, the feats, and everything else. Thanks for the help everyone.

[Bad Wolf]

Okay, sorry to necro my own thread, but I had a question, and I didn't think it was worth starting up a new thread. What would be the best vestiges to bind? I can only bind two vestiges, as Tenebrous continuously occupies one slot, so there's a variety of options.

[KingAtomsk]

Okay, sorry to necro my own thread, but I had a question, and I didn't think it was worth starting up a new thread. What would be the best vestiges to bind? I can only bind two vestiges, as Tenebrous continuously occupies one slot, so there's a variety of options.

Acerak for flavor and profit

[Chronos]

Isn't Healing Devotion just for you, though? Sacred Healing will let you heal your entire party. The action cost only matters in battle, and neither feat is really going to be significant in battle.

[WhamBamSam]

Okay, sorry to necro my own thread, but I had a question, and I didn't think it was worth starting up a new thread. What would be the best vestiges to bind? I can only bind two vestiges, as Tenebrous continuously occupies one slot, so there's a variety of options.Naberius to heal ability damage from Corrupt spells or Zceryll because Zceryll are good options. In downtime, Astaroth is handy for floating crafting feats.

[Ellowryn]

Isn't Healing Devotion just for you, though? Sacred Healing will let you heal your entire party. The action cost only matters in battle, and neither feat is really going to be significant in battle.

Healing devotion, as a full round action, allows you to transfer the fast healing to someone else.

[Bad Wolf]

Naberius to heal ability damage from Corrupt spells or Zceryll because Zceryll are good options. In downtime, Astaroth is handy for floating crafting feats.

Kay. I don't see what's so good about Zceryll that makes everyone mention her every time vestiges come up. Is it the whole Summon Monster thing?

[WhamBamSam]

Kay. I don't see what's so good about Zceryll that makes everyone mention her every time vestiges come up. Is it the whole Summon Monster thing?It's the ability to spam summon monster every 5 rounds, all day, and the fact that, RAW, it doesn't seem that the summons have a duration. It only references Summon Monster in terms of the things you can summon, not in how it actually functions.

100ft Mindsight is also a really nice thing.

[Bad Wolf]

It's the ability to spam summon monster every 5 rounds, all day, and the fact that, RAW, it doesn't seem that the summons have a duration. It only references Summon Monster in terms of the things you can summon, not in how it actually functions.

100ft Mindsight is also a really nice thing.

Hmm, seems like you're just casting Summon Monster as a sorcerer of your level. Don't see how theres unlimited duration, but fine. Any other goodies?

[Chronos]

Most of the goodness comes from creative ways to use the Summon Monster spells. There are a lot of summonable monsters with useful spell-like abilities (sometimes even at earlier levels than you'd get the spell itself directly), and so having Summon Monster indirectly gives you access to all of those spells, too.

A few of them are even more useful on summons than on yourself: For instance, there are some divination spells which have a chance of giving false information, and which always give the same answer when used by the same caster on the same subject. So casting it yourself, you can't just spam it until you can pick out the right answer statistically... but if you have a summoned monster use it, you can just summon another one and have it use the ability, too, and so on, and it's a different caster every time, so the "same caster" rule doesn't come up.

[Bad Wolf]

Most of the goodness comes from creative ways to use the Summon Monster spells. There are a lot of summonable monsters with useful spell-like abilities (sometimes even at earlier levels than you'd get the spell itself directly), and so having Summon Monster indirectly gives you access to all of those spells, too.

A few of them are even more useful on summons than on yourself: For instance, there are some divination spells which have a chance of giving false information, and which always give the same answer when used by the same caster on the same subject. So casting it yourself, you can't just spam it until you can pick out the right answer statistically... but if you have a summoned monster use it, you can just summon another one and have it use the ability, too, and so on, and it's a different caster every time, so the "same caster" rule doesn't come up.

I see the Avoral being useful, and maybe the Bone Devil and Djinn. Thanks.

Okay that's one vestige I'm keeping bound, any others?