what prcs suck so much you could cram then and still be okay?

[CyberThread]

Am thinking really bad sucky 5 or 10 level prc that you could reduce to just being 3 or 5 levels and still keep all the class benefits and would not make then op.

Hell it might actually make then decent.

[ahenobarbi]

Rosen Martyr kinda sucks by making charakter irrevacably unplayble as a capstone. Though making it shirter would only make it worse.

EDIT: Looking at -1 and -2 PrCs in here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) will give you some.

[PraxisVetli]

Shining Blade of Heironies (not even worth figuring out how to spell) could totally be shortened to a Feat.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hey, don't knock the Risen Martyr. It has a niche use in E6 and one-offs for the cap of a White Dragonspawn Kobold Monk 1/Sorcerer X build. +2 to Charisma, plus Cha to AC twice (ascetic mage + risen martyr), along with White Dragonspawn's +7 natural armor, can make for a very hard target. Use the Draconic Rites to make up for one level of lost spellcasting, and White Dragonspawn (if not E6, buy off the LA) to make up for the other.

[OldTrees1]

Let's start with the DMG
Arcane Archer: 3 levels long
Enhance Arrow is neat but not worth a level. Maybe the entire progression is worth a level.
Imbue Arrow is worth a level.
The 1/day arrows in total might be worth a level.

Blackguard: (I do not have enough experience with Paladins to judge)

Dragon Disiple: 5 levels long
Half Dragon Template claims to be worth +3 LA, I think 2 levels is more reasonable
At Will Breath Weapon is worth a level
EX Wings is worth a level
Blindsense is worth a level

Duelist: (I do not see enough of value to trust my judgement)

Dwarven Defender: (I do not see enough of value to trust my judgement)

Hierophant and Horizon Walker are better suited to other rebalancing techniques.

[Troacctid]

Umbral Disciple is loaded with dead levels. It could easily be a 5-level PrC.

[Eldan]

Green Star Adept. I'm not even sure what it's meant to achieve, mechanically, but it doesn't.

[eggynack]

Beastmaster is really awful, so that could work. It's kinda awkward for this purpose without some other forms of modulation though. My initial thought, though it could be a bit much on some non-druid builds, is a three level prestige class, with the animal companion buff at first level, and an extra companion at each level. These companions would run penalties, maybe the same penalties as the base beastmaster, but the levels would stack together. Alternatively, maybe a five level prestige class with the extra companions at 1, 3, and 5, with no penalty, a -2, and a -4 respectively could work. Tricky stuff.

[prufock]

Master of Masks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3) could be converted to a 5-level prestige class. Full spellcasting (or lose a single caster level at first), because the masks aren't strong enough to warrant 4/6 casting. Get one mask per level and get rid of the dead levels. I would also give it 3/4 BAB instead of half. Something like...



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Spellcasting


1
+0
+0
+2
+2
Disguise Prodigy, Persona Masks
-


2
+1
+0
+3
+3
Hidden Mask, Many Faces (standard)
+1 level of existing spellcasting


3
+2
+1
+3
+3
Many Faces (move), Mask Specialist
+1 level of existing spellcasting


4
+3
+1
+4
+4
Many Faces (swift), Mask Mastery
+1 level of existing spellcasting


5
+3
+1
+4
+4
Many Faces (immediate), Master of Disguise
+1 level of existing spellcasting



Persona Masks: Changed to 1 per level. Save DCs change to 10 + twice your class level + charisma modifier.
Disguise Prodigy: You gain the skill tricks Assume Quirk and Second Impression at no cost and these do not apply to your maximum number of skill tricks known. In addition you gain a bonus to disguise checks equal to your class level.
Many Faces: You can always wear all your masks at once, but only one is in effect at any time. At second level you can switch them as a standard action, which improves as you increase in level.
Hidden Mask: No change.
Mask Specialist: Increase DCs and bonuses by 2.
Mask Mastery: Use the abilities of 2 masks at the same time.
Master of Disguise: Use disguise self as a spell like ability at will.

Of course, the masks themselves would have to be altered as well to reflect these changes.


Beastmaster is really awful, so that could work.
Speaking of Beastmaster, how about Animal Lord? As a 5-level prc, it could have:
1st: Animal Bond, Detect Animals, First Totem, Wild Empathy
2nd: Low-Light Vision, Speak With Animals, Wild Aspect 1/day
3rd: Second Totem, Summon Animal
4th: Animal Growth, Wild Aspect 2/day
5th: Animal Telepathy, Third Totem

[ranagrande]

I think Beastmaster is perfectly fine just the way it is: one of the very best one level prestige classes.

Speaking of the Shining Blade of Heironious, it actually becomes viable as a five level class. With full casting and BAB, it's like a divine version of Abjurant Champion, with far less useful class features.

I'd like to mention my favorite useless prc, the Epic Mystic Theurge, which is mechanically inferior in every way to anything else that advances caster levels.

[ngilop]

I have re-done a lot of the more 'under-performing' PrCs Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?311379-Insert-fixed-PrC-here!). Having done such as the Dwarven Defender, Shining, duelist, and others, ad of course still taking requests :)

I have always really never understood why the reaping mauler makes one worse at grappling when it is supposed to be the PrC about getting dat grapple.

[heavyfuel]

I feel like most non full casting or non almost full casting PrCs could have this done to them.

[Telonius]

Darkrunner would probably be in contention.

[daremetoidareyo]

drunken master springs immediately to mind. The class is terrible for monks but great for barbarians, if the feat tax wasn't so high. Lots of levels with bleh, it should probably be about 7 levels long.

Force missile mage needs its capstone to be the application of class features to the spells of to energy missile and chain missile to make me even consider it.

slime lord should be 5 levels long or simply superimposed over ooze master to actually make a cool slime based class.

[Galen]

Let's start with the DMG
Arcane Archer: 3 levels long
Enhance Arrow is neat but not worth a level. Maybe the entire progression is worth a level.
Imbue Arrow is worth a level.
The 1/day arrows in total might be worth a level.Every time I read Arcane Archer I just assume it's a full spellcasting-progressing class. And then I'm shocked to find out it doesn't progress spellcasting at all :smallfrown:

[The Viscount]

Peregrine Runner cries out to be 5 levels long, but isn't. Most of the levels are dedicated to advancing skirmish and slow fall. Slow fall.

Initiate of Pistis Sophia needs to be condensed as well so there are more than 2 ways of entering the class by level 11.

[rgrekejin]

The Hellfire Warlock could easily be compressed into a single level, and in fact probably should be.

...at least, that's what you'll tell my DM if they stop by this thread, right?

(slides unmarked envelope stuffed with cash across the table)

[TheIronGolem]

Pale Master could comfortably fit into five levels. Maybe less.

[Kornaki]

I have always really never understood why the reaping mauler makes one worse at grappling when it is supposed to be the PrC about getting dat grapple.

How does it make you worse?

[The Insaniac]

When grappling, you want to be as large as possible but one of the pre-reqs for reaping mauler requires you to be medium size.

[eggynack]

How does it make you worse?
It forces you to take clever wrestling, which requires that you be small or medium, trapping you in that size range. Not being small or medium is critical to a grappling build, both because of the big bonuses, and because being larger grants you a larger number of foes you can grapple. Therefore, there's a big downside to the class, and there isn't much in the way of upside for separate reasons, so the class makes you worse.

[Troacctid]

Well, that or get it as a bonus feat from Leviathan Hunter, which ignores prerequisites.

[NotScaryBats]

Libris Mortis has a ton of cool, flavorful, 3-and-5 level long PrCs that are worth a look to see this concept done well.

But then the "terrain books" tend to wayyyyy over-value the super-niche stuff that they offer in their PrCs, like Stormwrack's Knight of the Pearl. It is a 5 level paladin PrC that trades spellcasting for...
1 - nothing (still progresses LoH and you can multiclass back to paladin after you're done yay!)
2 - free Buoyant on your armor (+1 equivalent)
3 - an actual class feature
4 - free Pearlsteel on your weapon (+1,500 gp equivalent)
5 - advancing level 3 actual class feature

So, the class could easily be a paladin ACF -- you trade your spellcasting (or maybe 1 use of your highest spell a day) to be able to channel positive energy into a burst of holy water that damages undead and evil water creatures. Bam.

[Aegis013]

Probably everything in the "Catastrophic (-2) tier" on this list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0l).

[(Un)Inspired]

While they're not the absolute worst prestige classes I'd love to see assassin and blackguard trimmed down to 5 levels. 5 level prestige classes that grant 4th level spells would be really cool to fit into a load of builds.

[eggynack]

Well, that or get it as a bonus feat from Leviathan Hunter, which ignores prerequisites.
Sure, though even if you do bypass the actively harmful prerequisites, the class still doesn't really help much with grappling. Very much not worth it, as these things go.

[darksolitaire]

The Hellfire Warlock could easily be compressed into a single level, and in fact probably should be.

Sure.

It can still be advanced with Legacy Champion, right? :smalltongue:

Edit: I'd love Master of the Unseen Hand as a three level class. You're an angry wizard that throws people around. Losing 3 levels of casting is still horrible, but wizard can take it if not playing in optimized games.

[Sartharina]

Rosen Martyr kinda sucks by making charakter irrevacably unplayble as a capstone. Though making it shirter would only make it worse. Playing a Risen Martyr gives you 9 more levels of a character you otherwise can't play at all.

[Extra Anchovies]

Playing a Risen Martyr gives you 9 more levels of a character you otherwise can't play at all.

Indeed. This makes it very useful in a game where A) resurrection magic is nonexistent/inaccessible and B) the dead character is particularly important to the plot. Such as when they know something very important.

[Darrin]

When grappling, you want to be as large as possible but one of the pre-reqs for reaping mauler requires you to be medium size.

Well, that and the other odd part about insisting on Clever Wrestling as a prerequisite is the bonuses you get from the feat are only to get *OUT* of a grapple... which is kind of completely the opposite of what you want as a dedicated grappler.

[SMWallace]

While they're not the absolute worst prestige classes I'd love to see assassin and blackguard trimmed down to 5 levels. 5 level prestige classes that grant 4th level spells would be really cool to fit into a load of builds.

This would actually be fairly fitting if you're trying to balance in a T4 party. If you use a Rogue/Fighter base, you'll be getting 4th-level casting at about the same level as the party Ranger or other half-caster. (Or is that partial caster? I'm pretty sure the wording used refers to Bards as partial caster and Paladin/Ranger as half-caster, but I may be wrong.)

[Extra Anchovies]

This would actually be fairly fitting if you're trying to balance in a T4 party. If you use a Rogue/Fighter base, you'll be getting 4th-level casting at about the same level as the party Ranger or other half-caster. (Or is that partial caster? I'm pretty sure the wording used refers to Bards as partial caster and Paladin/Ranger as half-caster, but I may be wrong.)

I call Paladins/Rangers half-casters and Bards two-thirds-casters.

[Galen]

Playing a Risen Martyr gives you 9 more levels of a character you otherwise can't play at all.I always though about it as not a real class, but more of a plot device.

[Judge_Worm]

Fighter makes a great 5 level prestige class, full BAB, and two feats a level.

[Rubik]

Fighter makes a great 5 level prestige class, full BAB, and two feats a level.With Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim Soldier as bonus feats, right?

[Extra Anchovies]

Fighter makes a great 5 level prestige class, full BAB, and two feats a level.

Actually, the Bonus Feat Acquirer is a full twenty-level base class, consisting of Cloistered Cleric 1/Martial Monk 2/PsyWar 2/Fighter 2/Feat Rogue 2/Martial Wizard 1/Psion 1/Wu Jen 1/Swashbuckler 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Marshal 1/Ranger 3/Dragon Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1. The best part about the class is that you can take those levels in any order, so it's great for dipping! The downside is XP penalties from multiclassing, but hey. You end up with 35-ish feats (or 28 without counting Discipline Focus) by the end of your build (three devotion feats, seven to nine fighter feats, one to three psionic feats, one metamagic feat, one ranger style feat, plus Weapon Finesse, Dragontouched, SF (Diplomacy), Track, Endurance, Blind-Fight, the seven normal feats from leveling, and a pile of Weapon Focuses), and a BAB of 15.

[Rubik]

Actually, the Bonus Feat Acquirer is a full twenty-level base class, consisting of Cloistered Cleric 1/Martial Monk 2/PsyWar 2/Fighter 2/Feat Rogue 2/Martial Wizard 1/Psion 1/Wu Jen 1/Swashbuckler 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Marshal 1/Ranger 3/Dragon Totem Barbarian 1/Swordsage 1. The best part about the class is that you can take those levels in any order, so it's great for dipping! The downside is XP penalties from multiclassing, but hey. You end up with 35-ish feats (or 28 without counting Discipline Focus) by the end of your build (three devotion feats, seven to nine fighter feats, one to three psionic feats, one metamagic feat, one ranger style feat, plus Weapon Finesse, Dragontouched, SF (Diplomacy), Track, Endurance, Blind-Fight, the seven normal feats from leveling, and a pile of Weapon Focuses), and a BAB of 15.Don't forget the slew of Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Shield/Tower Shield Proficiency feats. Almost all of those classes gain at least some of those. Just DCFS them out.

Check the actual feats, because the classes themselves don't tell you.

[Extra Anchovies]

Don't forget the slew of Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Shield/Tower Shield Proficiency feats. Almost all of those classes gain at least some of those. Just DCFS them out.

Check the actual feats, because the classes themselves don't tell you.

Hm. With those, and by playing an elf, you can get eight more. We're now at 43-ish, all but seven of which can be DCFS'd away (those seven being from Discipline Focus and Ranger Combat Style, since we gain "the benefit of" the feats but not the feats themselves). But IT STILL ISN'T ENOUGH :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Hm. With those, and by playing an elf, you can get eight more. We're now at 43-ish, all but seven of which can be DCFS'd away (those seven being from Discipline Focus and Ranger Combat Style, since we gain "the benefit of" the feats but not the feats themselves). But IT STILL ISN'T ENOUGH :smalltongue:Then DCFS out all the armor and shield feats you get?

Every class but sorcerer, wizard, and monk gives you at least some of those, so you have all of those feats (except Tower Shield Proficiency) multiple times.

[SMWallace]

Then DCFS out all the armor and shield feats you get?

Every class but sorcerer, wizard, and monk gives you at least some of those, so you have all of those feats (except Tower Shield Proficiency) multiple times.

Forgive me for failing at RAW, but I thought class-based weapon proficiency was a feature/benefit, not a bunch of feats?

[Rubik]

Forgive me for failing at RAW, but I thought class-based weapon proficiency was a feature/benefit, not a bunch of feats?It is, yes.

But we're not talking about that.

[Extra Anchovies]

It is, yes.

But we're not talking about that.

Indeed. Armor and shield proficiencies grant the feats IIRC. We have:

4 from Cloistered Cleric (Light/Medium/Heavy/Shields)
4 from PsyWar
5 from Fighter (L/M/H/S/Tower)
1 from Rogue
1 from Swashbuckler
4 from Marshal
2 from Ranger
3 from Barbarian
1 from Swordsage

for a total of 25, from properly placed DCFSes. We could get more, but the point is more geared towards class-derived bonus feats.

[Rubik]

There are also a TON of feats you can get from items which you can DCFS, for around 10k apiece. A good dozen or so for weapons alone, which you can add to every weapon on your person, from ten poison rings to two gauntlets to two knee blades to two sleeve blades to two boot blades to at least one braid blade to a tail blade (or scythe) to an animated shield to shield spikes to armor spikes to your unarmed strike (with that level of monk or swordsage you've got) to the three you've got on your elvencraft longbow to your chronocharms which are also all enhanced as necklaces of natural weapons to a mouthpick weapon.

I'm sure I could squeeze more in there, but you get the point.

[rgrekejin]

4 from Cloistered Cleric (Light/Medium/Heavy/Shields)

Doesn't Cloistered Cleric get only Light armor and no shields?

[Extra Anchovies]

Doesn't Cloistered Cleric get only Light armor and no shields?

That's right, thanks. I missed that one.

[ranagrande]

The optimal featmonger is an Elf with two flaws and Vow of Poverty.

Archivist 1/Ardent 1/Artificer 1/Barbarian (Bear, Dragon, or Lion Totem) 1/Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Divine Mind 1/Dragon Shaman 1/Druid 1/Duskblade 1/Fighter 1/ex-Knight 1/Marshal 1/Paladin of Freedom 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Ranger 1/ex-Samurai 1/Soulborn 1/Soulknife 1/Warblade 1

Chaos shuffle feats as you get them for a total of 108 at level 20.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Everyone seems to be shying away from it but, Ur-Priest would be worth looking at if it could be crunched into 3-5 levels.

[ranagrande]

Most likely, people have been ignoring Ur-Priest because it is quite possibly the prestige class with the absolute least need for this sort of help, given that it's a Tier 1 caster with access to ninth level spells at character level 14.

[SMWallace]

Everyone seems to be shying away from it but, Ur-Priest would be worth looking at if it could be crunched into 3-5 levels.

I like this guy. He knows what's up.

[Seerow]

Most likely, people have been ignoring Ur-Priest because it is quite possibly the prestige class with the absolute least need for this sort of help, given that it's a Tier 1 caster with access to ninth level spells at character level 14.

Yeah this thread is about PrCs that suck and could use the scrunch, not about what PrCs would be the most overpowered if you compressed them.



I actually did Swashbuckler as a 5 level prestige class a few years back. It worked out really well.

Soulknife's big feature boils down to a feat, but I could see giving the psychic strike progression and other stuff as part of a 5 level class.


I remember Races of Stone having a lot of classes that were bad let's flip through there...
Battlesmith is already basically a 1 level dip, the rest of the features could be compressed into 1-2 levels, making the whole class a 2-3 level class as opposed to 5.

Blade Bravo has a couple of nice features, but then filler like bonus feats and sneak attack progression to pretend like it doesn't have dead levels. Squish down to 5 levels easily.

Cragtop Archer is summed up entirely with Arcing Shot. Can be condensed into 1-3 levels easily.

Dawncaller is literally half dead levels. Crunch into 3-5 levels and still be fine.

Deepwarden is another 2 level class with only one feature anyone cares about. The rest is nice, but not worth sticking around for. Condensing down to 3 levels is going to be fine. In 3 levels you get Track + Swift Tracker, Sending + Animal Messenger, Trap Sense, and Con to AC. This PrC is so all over the place I don't even know what to say.

Goliath Liberator... what? Dammit now I kind of want to go rewrite this class, because the concept of a Goliath who goes around killing giants for fun is cool, but looking at the class features I can see why I totally wrote this class off. This can totally be a 2 level class and still be weak.

Iron Mind is actually kind of cool, but would work as a 4 level medium BAB 3/4 manifesting class. You give up 1 BAB and 1 manifester level to gain some DR and an occasional massive bonus to will save for you or your allies. Situationally worth it, and short enough to tack onto a build if you have the feats to spare to qualify.

Peregine Runner is a 5 level class that thinks it's a 10 level class because it pretends to be a scout.

Stoneblessed would be much more functional as a 1 level PrC. Seriously, a 3 level tax to pretend like you're a dwarf/gnome/goliath? Literally the only thing this is good for currently is letting halflings play Hulk and grow 8x bigger when they rage by pretending to be a goliath.



Hrm yeah, I'm beginning to suspect that what someone else said about just condensing every mundane prestige class down to 3-5 levels is pretty accurate.

Oh that reminds me of one more: Dervish Dancer! Then again you already spent every feat you ever had qualifying to get in, so you may as well stick around for the rest of your career.

[Jeff the Green]

Probably everything in the "Catastrophic (-2) tier" on this list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0l).

And at least one "Good to Great" one: Champion of Corellon Larethian. Strip it of its bonus feats and the non-proficiency-based requirement feats, give Superior Defense at 1, 3, and 5, Unimpeded Movement at 4, and Corellon's Wrath at 5.


Stoneblessed would be much more functional as a 1 level PrC. Seriously, a 3 level tax to pretend like you're a dwarf/gnome/goliath? Literally the only thing this is good for currently is letting halflings play Hulk and grow 8x bigger when they rage by pretending to be a goliath.

Don't forget tibbits!

[torrasque666]

Stoneblessed would be much more functional as a 1 level PrC. Seriously, a 3 level tax to pretend like you're a dwarf/gnome/goliath? Literally the only thing this is good for currently is letting halflings play Hulk and grow 8x bigger when they rage by pretending to be a goliath.


That is probably one of the worst I've seen here. Half the time its only ever mentioned for the capstone and only with Goliaths. I never see it being mentioned for Dwarves or Gnomes, though I could see someone possibly taking it to eventually get Shadowcraft Mage.

Keep it as a tax, its only ever used for cheese around here anyway.

[Seerow]

That is probably one of the worst I've seen here. Half the time its only ever mentioned for the capstone and only with Goliaths. I never see it being mentioned for Dwarves or Gnomes, though I could see someone possibly taking it to eventually get Shadowcraft Mage.

Keep it as a tax, its only ever used for cheese around here anyway.

I haven't seen much in the way of actual cheese that comes out of it though. If you leave it as 1 level, you're still paying a 1 level tax (as opposed to 1 buyable LA if you just play a Goliath). Is it actually broken to get SCM on a non-gnome, especially when you're being forced to lose a caster level? Is a non-goliath picking up mountain rage actually cheese, or is it just opening up an interesting/funny option for other races? I've never seen a halfling mountain rager actually be called overpowered compared to a Goliath Mountain Rager, but it is way funnier to have the little halfling hulk out into a large character, which is why it frequently gets brought up.

[torrasque666]

I haven't seen much in the way of actual cheese that comes out of it though. If you leave it as 1 level, you're still paying a 1 level tax (as opposed to 1 buyable LA if you just play a Goliath). Is it actually broken to get SCM on a non-gnome, especially when you're being forced to lose a caster level? Is a non-goliath picking up mountain rage actually cheese, or is it just opening up an interesting/funny option for other races? I've never seen a halfling mountain rager actually be called overpowered compared to a Goliath Mountain Rager, but it is way funnier to have the little halfling hulk out into a large character, which is why it frequently gets brought up.

My point is that a 3 level tax to do something that your race is not supposed to do, get larger when angry because the tribes accepted you as one of their own, is not extreme. Just because all anyone ever cares about is the capstone DOES NOT mean that the rest of the class is worthless enough to be condensed. I'm all for collapsing dead levels, but not levels that actually have class features.

And it probably would be broken for a SCM if they only lose a level, in fact its probably the only thing keeping it from being broken by losing 3. Hell, even as is you still get 9ths. And that means that with 3 feats you get to cast 9th level Evocation spells when they probably banned the school in the first place.



Funny thing, upon actually reading Stoneblessed(which so many apparently haven't due to forgetting its Type limitations) it only mentions qualifying for Feats and Prestige Classes as if you were that race. Mountain Rage is neither.

[Seerow]

And it probably would be broken for a SCM if they only lose a level, in fact its probably the only thing keeping it from being broken by losing 3. Hell, even as is you still get 9ths. And that means that with 3 feats you get to cast 9th level Evocation spells when they probably banned the school in the first place.


Okay I'm curious.

Can you name a single race which is LA+0 but better enough than Gnome at casting illusion spells to be worth giving up 1 level of casting for, let alone 3?

It seems to me like you're flipping out over what amounts to someone paying a level for to pick a different flavor.

[torrasque666]

Okay I'm curious.

Can you name a single race which is LA+0 but better enough than Gnome at casting illusion spells to be worth giving up 1 level of casting for, let alone 3?

It seems to me like you're flipping out over what amounts to someone paying a level for to pick a different flavor.

Honestly I can't. What I am flipping out over is the idea that because only the capstone is ever mentioned, the capstone is all there should be.

And honestly, everyone is always "well you're giving up caster levels..." but they fail to consider the implications of magic in D&D. If you still get the same level spells, then it is merely a race of "who hits first" Magic is basically nuclear weaponry. As long as you have it anywhere in the same range as the other guy, its still scary. A 9th is a 9th is a 9th. Does the other guy possibly have more? Yeah. But its still the same ammo, all he does is have the opportunity to miss. Giving up the most powerful resource in the game is a trade. Is it always a fair trade? Not in a longshot. But not all trades are fair. If you want to do X, sometimes you have to give up the chance to do Y.

[Seerow]

Honestly I can't. What I am flipping out over is the idea that because only the capstone is ever mentioned, the capstone is all there should be.

The capstone is the only reason the class exists. The class is basically a gatekeeper to being able to play a concept outside of the standard stereotype. The other two levels exist solely as filler to make the investment required higher. There is no mechanical reason that investment should be higher. Most DMs I know will say "Just ignore that racial requirement if you really want to run with it" for most feats/classes. Taking the 3 level class and condensing it to one so it actually serves its purpose in a more usable manner, taking it from a very weak niche to a niche that more characters will be willing to consider is exactly the sort of thing this thread is about.

But if you want to complain about the mindset of "Only the ability people care about matters, get rid of the rest of the chaff" I'm really surprised you didn't jump onto Deep Warden instead. A 10 level class I suggested to drop down to 3, because literally nobody cares about the vast majority of its features.

[Barbarian Horde]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.0

Monster classes made into actually character Class levels. I consider it balanced.

[Jeff the Green]

Honestly I can't. What I am flipping out over is the idea that because only the capstone is ever mentioned, the capstone is all there should be.

The capstone is the only class feature that's talked about because it's the only one that's worth having.

[torrasque666]

The capstone is the only reason the class exists. The class is basically a gatekeeper to being able to play a concept outside of the standard stereotype. The other two levels exist solely as filler to make the investment required higher. There is no mechanical reason that investment should be higher. Most DMs I know will say "Just ignore that racial requirement if you really want to run with it" for most feats/classes. Taking the 3 level class and condensing it to one so it actually serves its purpose in a more usable manner, taking it from a very weak niche to a niche that more characters will be willing to consider is exactly the sort of thing this thread is about.

But if you want to complain about the mindset of "Only the ability people care about matters, get rid of the rest of the chaff" I'm really surprised you didn't jump onto Deep Warden instead. A 10 level class I suggested to drop down to 3, because literally nobody cares about the vast majority of its features.

That's mostly because I personally don't have experience with Deep Warden.

And you can say "well, its the only reason the class exists" but is it really? Not all classes are made equally, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread. To say that one feature is the only reason it exists is a failure to understand the core concept of the game. To tell a story. Levels exist in the game both as a way to measure power, and a way to make milestones in the story. The wizard who gains a new level of spells, he has two whole chapters of experience to detail how he got that new level. The warblade who has reached the next maneuver level has the story to tell of how he did so. A monk has the tale of a spiritual journey. Stoneblessed tells the story of how you came to be so accepted by this group of people that you have become one of them in body and soul. To drop that down to a single level is, quite frankly, insulting to that kind of experience. So a guy just up and wanders into a tribe, a town, a city and becomes so accepted that he is one? The hell kind of story does that tell?

You have to keep in mind the nature of the game.
You and your friends create characters that develop and grow with each adventure they complete. One player is the
Dungeon Master (DM). The DM controls the monsters and enemies,
narrates the action, referees the game, and sets up the adventures.
Together, the Dungeon Master and the players make the game
come alive.

That is what the non mechanical side of levels is. The development. That's why, even if a class is horrible and some consider it to only be a few levels long(like the above monk) it still has those levels. To reflect on a class solely from a mechanical point of view ignores the meaning of class levels.

[Seerow]

Stoneblessed tells the story of how you came to be so accepted by this group of people that you have become one of them in body and soul. To drop that down to a single level is, quite frankly, insulting to that kind of experience. So a guy just up and wanders into a tribe, a town, a city and becomes so accepted that he is one? The hell kind of story does that tell?

I think you have it backwards. The prerequisites of the class require that you've already been accepted into the tribe/town/whatever. There is a whole story to be told before you ever enter the class. The class itself is merely the apotheosis that results from that story that was already told before you ever had the chance to consider qualifying.


Just like you can decide one day after leveling up you are now a Wizard, and gain all the features that come with that. Or you can spend the time roleplaying it out ahead of time in preparation, and work towards it in character so when it comes time to take that Wizard level, it doesn't seem to come out of nowhere. Note that you don't have to take a 3 level class that gives no meaningful benefits before you can take that first level in Wizard, you just get to do it.

[torrasque666]

I think you have it backwards. The prerequisites of the class require that you've already been accepted into the tribe/town/whatever. There is a whole story to be told before you ever enter the class. The class itself is merely the apotheosis that results from that story that was already told before you ever had the chance to consider qualifying.
There's a difference between being accepted into a group and becoming a member of that group in such a meaningful way. A better way to put it would be that its more like joining any form of organization that has any modicum of exclusivity. Sometimes you can get in easy enough sure. But to be invited to become a member of the inner circle is something else. And then there is the story of what has happened and changed between the invitation and the initiation.


Just like you can decide one day after leveling up you are now a Wizard, and gain all the features that come with that. Or you can spend the time roleplaying it out ahead of time in preparation, and work towards it in character so when it comes time to take that Wizard level, it doesn't seem to come out of nowhere. Note that you don't have to take a 3 level class that gives no meaningful benefits before you can take that first level in Wizard, you just get to do it.
There's a fundamental difference between the two. One is the end result, while the other is the first step in a long journey. The first step of anything can be taken lightly. The end result only comes about due to commitment.