I was wrong.

[Glome]

Now that we know for certain that all Xykons are fake, I am make a thread stating I'm wrong as per my bet with The Wander earlier when Xykon wearing a necklace first showed up.

Of course that still leaves the mechanical problems I had with all the alternative possibilities that were presented so far that originally gave me some misgivings about the Xykon was fake idea. The most plausible explanation I've heard as to how these decoys are constructed are that they are simulacrums. However, I don't see how Xykon had time to spend 36 hours constructing simulacrams when it appears the plan was devised by Redcloak the night before, much less that they are no longer in the mountains and don't have access to ice.

If the creatures were created earlier, I don't think Redcloak would have had difficulty with strategy so late in the game, plus it seems odd that these simulacrums wouldn't appear anywhere in the comic previous to this (and the MITD didn't even know about any of this until now, although as said before he is oblivious to alot of stuff). Plus the simulacrums wouldn't have needed the necklaces, so why have them if your going for as much versimilutude as possible?

I've already explained earlier the problems with disguised undead or something similar to that effect in an earlier thread. The only solution I can think of is that we're seeing another homebrew spell or magic effect. Anyway, I let the difficulty of the 'how' on the decoy theory muddy the more obvious point that it still wasn't the real Xykon. Kudos to the Wanderer and everyone who guessed correctly that it was a fake Xykon from the beginning.

[Mewtarthio]

Regular undead wearing Necklaces that cast Disguise or Alter Self on the wearer? They probably really are undead, because Redcloak threatens to rebuke one of them.

[No_constraints]

That's it! That would explain their different reactions!

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Well, Xykon and Redcloak are higher level than the party (as per conventional BBEG characteristics regarding primary spellcasters). It's entirely likely that they gated in an outsider that knows wish and spontaneously made the three amulets.
It's also likely that Xykon had them hanging around. He has had several decades of lichdom with the Craft Wondrous Item feat (it's a prereq), and I'm sure he had a few "make the wearer look like me" amulets lying around, among other things.

As for all of the clones talking, I'd say that they're all ghouls, though one or two might be something significantly different just for a laugh.

[Glome]

While the idea that they are disguised undead is another possibility that was brought up, there seems to be problems with that theory as well. Namely that the three Xykons don't seem to behave the way one would expect low level undead to act in a similar situation (wen've only seen ghouls and ghasts as intelligent undead in Xykons army so far). None of the Xykons show acknowledgement of rank structure or even remember Redcloak's name off-hand. None of them show any real hunger of human corpses, and at least the Xykon in the back seems to know more about the overall battle strategy then I would bother telling some peon ghoul.

Still, thinking about it, the theory is actually more mechanically plausible then the Simulacrum theory. I just having trouble connecting their behaviour with how I expect ghouls to act. It probably doesn't help that all the ghouls and ghasts we've seen haven't said more then single word statements in the comic so far.

[13_CBS]

Wait, why couldn't three of the hobgoblins be disguised as Xykon? that way they still retain sentience while looking like undead.

[Vale]

Wait, why couldn't three of the hobgoblins be disguised as Xykon? that way they still retain sentience while looking like undead.

The main arguement against their being hobgoblins is that Redcloak threatened to rebuke (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead) the cowardly one in 422 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html). Wouldn't really be that scary to a hobgoblin, since the worst that'd happen is he'd have a bright light (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) in his eyes. That'd probably be annoying, but not nearly as bad as getting attacked by all those paladins and whatnot.

[OmegaDonut]

We figure the timid Xykon is actually undead, by how Redcloak threatens to "rebuke [it] into next week."

Although it could just be Redcloak allowing himself to pretend that whatever's underneath actually is Xykon, just so he can call him the "whiny crybaby sack of undead crap" he's probably wanted to call him for a long time.

[Brettoe]

was wrong too.....I feel like I got a 1 for my INT stat...



:frown:

[13_CBS]

@Omegadonut: Yeah, that's what I was thinking...now that we know that Redcloak got a nice therapeutic feeling from yelling at "Xykon", I'm wondering if Redcloak is just pretnding that the undead/hobgoblin is just Xykon in the flesh (bones?)

[Andiamo]

Has nobody else noticed that rebuke also happens to be a real life word meaning something along the lines of punish?

[Assassinfox]

Has nobody else noticed that rebuke also happens to be a real life word meaning something along the lines of punish?

That IS the point of the name, yes.

[GSFB]

I think they are just wearing masks. No need to use magic, plus illusions can be defeated by True Seeing but mundane disguises can not.

[Vale]

Masks? And they got their hands and feet painted skeletal white? :P

In a stick figure it's not too hard to have skeleton hands and feet, but that wouldn't really stand up in the Real World of a D&D campaign. To us they look like stick figures, do they view themselves that way? When Haley looks at Elan's hands, are they stick-like or fleshed out?

That'd be the deciding factor in how easy it is to dress up as a lich with a costume I think. If people can't see through parts of your body then the gig is up.

[ShiningTed]

I, too, was wrong, can't deny it. Well done Giant!

[Jawajoey]

I think it's totally, likely even, that the decoys aren't actually undead. It's possible they are, but we haven't seen any remotely intelligent or emotional undead under Xykon's command other than Xykon himself.

And about the rebuking, even without mentioning rebuke, Redcloak worked him over, which was enough to make "Xykon" recoil regardless of whether or not he actually was undead. And from Redcloaks perspective, he's just pretending to say something he's wanted to say tot he real undead for a long time.

What makes me doubt that these are normal decoys, however, are their unique and distinct personalities. That more than anything convinces me that they're probably some sort of projection or weird other thing rather than simple hobgoblins in disguise (who would probably have similar, moderately aggressive personalities, unlike what we're seeing in any of the decoys)

[Fus.Weapon 1337]

Yay, I won. I knew it was none of them.

[Hinton]

I'll chip in and say that I really had no idea. I was pretty sure that the two charging into battle weren't the real Xykon, but the one in the back was a tough call. In the end, I just figured it would be revealed eventually and decided to stop worrying about it.

[BisectedBrioche]

My theory is that they are in fact;

THE RESULT OF MAGIC!

[CardinalFang]

Is it possible that part of the amulets' magic is some Int boost or other effect which in essence allows the ghouls (or whatever undead they actually are) to act (un)alive to at least be believable Xykons at a distance, if not in actual personality? Like, perhaps, what they would have been like when they were alive, and could say something more intelligent than "brains?"

[MolotovH]

Maybe OOTS is coterminous with Eberron right now, and they're Karrnathi Skeletons? :smallcool:

[InfiniteMiller]

Masks? And they got their hands and feet painted skeletal white? :P

In a stick figure it's not too hard to have skeleton hands and feet, but that wouldn't really stand up in the Real World of a D&D campaign. To us they look like stick figures, do they view themselves that way? When Haley looks at Elan's hands, are they stick-like or fleshed out?

That'd be the deciding factor in how easy it is to dress up as a lich with a costume I think. If people can't see through parts of your body then the gig is up.

I'm not so sure. The characters may see each other as stick figures, as evidenced in the strip where the dwarven assassin berates the shadowdancer's plan to shadowjump in a world where no one casts a shadow.

[Hinton]

I'm not so sure. The characters may see each other as stick figures, as evidenced in the strip where the dwarven assassin berates the shadowdancer's plan to shadowjump in a world where no one casts a shadow.

And as evidenced by this "police sketch" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html).

[Wizzardman]

And as evidenced by this "police sketch" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html).

Yes, but both of those incidents were for the sake of humor, rather than an actual plot point. I think 'wearing masks as the perfect disguise' would break the fourth wall a little too much even for this comic.

[13_CBS]

Has anyone mentioned ghasts yet? Xykon had a few in Dorukan's dungeon, and while they haven't shown up yep at Azure City, there's not evidence that Xykon hasn't gotten a few for himself after the Dungeon of Dorukan got blown up...

[Studoku]

I've been thinking about the decoy plan and it would have been better with only one decoy. Think about it, with only one decoy, the order would not have believed anything was wrong and attacked it. This would have left xykon to carry out whatever invisible dragon related deeds he wanted.

[Vale]

Think about it, with only one decoy, the order would not have believed anything was wrong and attacked it.

Well, it would have almost certainly sent them scampering off in a big group to smash "Xykon". That'd be exactly what he/Redcloak wants!

Except that they'd be together rather than split into more easily manageable subgroups... Divide and conquer and all that. Plus the battle with the fake would probably have lasted about 1 round. If they stick together and smash the horse-riding Xykon, and he dies quick, then they'd know they have to run off to stop the cowardly walking Xykon quick! Thereby ensuring several more minutes of diversonary tactics.

So yeah, he'd get a more sure diversion with one decoy, but it'd be a rather weak diversion. Here he's gambling, and might get no diversion at all(what happened), but he also might get a good 10 minutes of them running around trying to kill the right one.

[NecroPaladin]

I would say simulacrums, but those don't have personalities. My guess is it's a house ruled duplicate-but-with-a-personality kind of thing, but I'm likely wrong.

[Wizzardman]

I've been thinking about the decoy plan and it would have been better with only one decoy. Think about it, with only one decoy, the order would not have believed anything was wrong and attacked it. This would have left xykon to carry out whatever invisible dragon related deeds he wanted.

Too obvious. They might have expected that as some form of trick. Plus, this is more exciting.

[the_tick_rules]

yes it is exciting, now xykon is in trouble. they bring that dragon down and he's all alone in the middle of a lot of people who want to kill him.

[Glome]

Has anyone mentioned ghasts yet? Xykon had a few in Dorukan's dungeon, and while they haven't shown up yep at Azure City, there's not evidence that Xykon hasn't gotten a few for himself after the Dungeon of Dorukan got blown up...

Ghasts emit a horrible stench, one that I don't think would be covered up by either disguise self, alter self or even a more convenienal disguise.