Natural Weapon Fighter

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello everyone!
This is my first post here, but I've been playing D&D for some time now. I have recently been informed by our DM that the campaign we are doing (Baldur's Gate) is just a stepping stone in our Forgotten Realms fantasy universe and that later on when we move on to bigger better things, we may be creating entirely new characters to handle another timeline of events going on simultaneously with our current characters.
At first I was taken a bit aback at the thought of playing someone other than my Paladin in this world, but we were also presented that at some point our character parties might "meet up" which really got my wheels turning. Currently I play an Aasimar Paladin/Fist of Raziel. But for my next character I want to do something odd, so since I hadn't seen a build for it (possibly due to poor searching) I wanted to talk about a Natural Weapon Fighter.
Here is what I have so far:

Race: Human
Type: Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType)
Template: Half-Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Level: 18 (ECL 21)
Class: Barbarian (http://dndtools.eu/classes/barbarian/) (8), Black Blood Cultist (http://dndtools.eu/classes/black-blood-cultist/) (10)

Str: 26
Dex: 10
Con: 20
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

Feats:
Power Attack (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/power-attack--2208/)
Frightful Presence (http://dndtools.eu/feats/draconomicon--92/frightful-presence--3261/) (DC 19)
Awaken Spell Resistance (http://dndtools.eu/feats/draconomicon--92/awaken-spell-resistance--3216/) (14)
Improved Natural Attack (http://dndtools.eu/feats/eberron-campaign-setting--12/improved-natural-attack--1531/) (2 Claws)
Improved Unarmed Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/improved-unarmed-strike--1595/)
Track (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/track--2952/)
Dragon Breath (http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/dragon-breath--720/)
Beast Strike (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Beast_Strike)

Armor: Sectioned (Fully Reduced)
Magic Items: Necklace of Natural Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99215-Necklace-of-Natural-Weapons-(D-amp-D-3-5)) +2 Flaming Burst (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Flaming_Burst) x2 (46,000gp)

Feats to consider:
RapidStrike
Improved RapidStrike
Instantaneous Rage
Intimidating Rage
Never Outnumbered
Imperious Command

Things to look into:
Weapon Crystals
Totem Variants


That is about what I have right now. I plan on putting most of my ability points in Con for health and to up the DC for my breath attack (Pyroclastic). Any ideas where I should go from here or what I should change? We are playing a 3.5 game in the Forgotten Realms, but we have access to most all content.

[Vaz]

Black Blood Cultist. It is bar none, the best Natural Attacker in the game, as a result of its 8th level ability. Combine with either Warshaper (for growing whichever natural attacks you need), or Totemist (for shaping soulmelds and binding them to gain a ton of Natural Attacks).

It takes a long while to get there - ECL13 for earliest access - but you can combine it with something like Totem Rager later on for a fairly powerful natural attacker.

[LoyalPaladin]

Black Blood Cultist. It is bar none, the best Natural Attacker in the game, as a result of its 8th level ability.

Holy cow. That class is pretty crazy. I do have some technical questions though:

- Would it up my damage on my claws more? Since I am taking improved natural attack and my bite already does a d6 would they go up another damage class?
- Does the DR stack with the Barbarian DR? So many questions, so little time.

I really like the rend capability of that class. I was just trying to figure out how to make rend work yesterday. We may start at an even higher level that ECL 9. But that is still unclear. We've been playing our current characters since level 1. So we'll probably start out where they end.

[Red Fel]

Be aware that you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons. You either need a lot of them, or a way to add them to your unarmed attacks (e.g. the Beast Strike feat) to make up the difference.

I would also advise you to invest in a Necklace of Natural Weapons when it becomes feasible to do so. If you plan to use just the claws, the Necklace will allow you to enhance them as you would any other weapon - which makes them a very real threat.

[Dread_Head]

If you plan on using your breath weapon you probably want the Dragon Breath feat from races of the dragon so you can use it every 1d4 rounds rather than 1/day.

[Ferronach]

You may want to take a look at warlocks and splash a little in for a "claw-lock" vibe and extra damage

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm going to reply to these seperately here...


Be aware that you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons. You either need a lot of them, or a way to add them to your unarmed attacks (e.g. the Beast Strike feat) to make up the difference.
This is super helpful, I had no idea they didn't get iterative attacks. So with the Beast Strike feat I essentially make unarmed attacks (which do become iterative) but I do it with my claw attack (or do I just add their damage to the attack).


I would also advise you to invest in a Necklace of Natural Weapons when it becomes feasible to do so.
This is also spectacular. Our DM usually allows us a magical item (within certain cost limits). If I understand this post (linked below), it is 2600gp per natural weapon? So I would multiply it by 3 for 7800gp?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99215-Necklace-of-Natural-Weapons-(D-amp-D-3-5)

[LoyalPaladin]

If you plan on using your breath weapon you probably want the Dragon Breath feat from races of the dragon so you can use it every 1d4 rounds rather than 1/day.

Definitely taking that feat.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Since you're obviously ok with obscene level adjustments, I suggest you scale it down and take the Feral template from savage species instead of half dragon. Slap it on a Water Orc or Desert Half Orc and take levels in Totemist. You can focus stat boosts on Con like you planned and the character will be much more playable. Later grab levels in Warshaper. Feral isn't really needed to make this work, it's just a nice RP template with some great mechanical benefits.

[LoyalPaladin]

Since you're obviously ok with obscene level adjustments, I suggest you scale it down and take the Feral template from savage species instead of half dragon.
The only issue I have with this, is that I am a very fluff oriented player and I am going for the Half-Dragon/Human character with some anger issues. Hahaha. I might be able to buy off one level of LA by getting a cheaper magical item as well. Which would be sweet. I just realized I never even linked the Shyvana page, so basically anyone who didn't play League wouldn't get it. I'll amend that and post it here as well.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Shyvana

[Red Fel]

This is super helpful, I had no idea they didn't get iterative attacks. So with the Beast Strike feat I essentially make unarmed attacks (which do become iterative) but I do it with my claw attack (or do I just add their damage to the attack).

Okay. First off, Beast Strike is from Dragon Magazine, so make sure it flies with your DM. Second, it requires Improved Unarmed Strike and a BAB of +5 or higher, so it may take you some time. Now, the good news - yes, Beast Strike adds your claw damage to your unarmed strikes.

Mind you, a medium creature's unarmed strike is not particularly potent (1d3), but thanks to IUS it becomes lethal or nonlethal, at your discretion. A medium Half-Dragon gets two 1d4 claw attacks and a 1d6 bite attack. So tacking the claw damage (1d4) onto your unarmed strikes (1d3) and then being able to apply iteratives is pretty nice. Let's look at how it all plays out: On a full attack, at level 20, you get: Four iterative unarmed strikes, dealing unarmed damage (1d3) plus claw damage (1d4) Two claw attacks at your highest BAB -5, dealing 1d4 One bite attack at your highest BAB -5, dealing 1d6That's pretty great, isn't it?


This is also spectacular. Our DM usually allows us a magical item (within certain cost limits). If I understand this post (linked below), it is 2600gp per natural weapon? So I would multiply it by 3 for 7800gp?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99215-Necklace-of-Natural-Weapons-(D-amp-D-3-5)

Okay. Here's the first thing you have to understand - there is another item to consider, the Amulet of Mighty Fists, that overlaps with the Necklace of Natural Weapons. Here's how they differ.

The NoNW allows you to enhance each natural weapon (e.g. unarmed strikes, claws, bite) separately, and add effects - but it costs separately for each weapon. The AoMF allows you to enhance all natural weapons across the board, for a single cost - but it only adds the numerical effect.

If your goal is simply to turn your natural attacks into +X magic weapons, the AoMF is the superior choice when you have 3 or more natural weapons, due to cost. If, however, you want to add special effects (e.g. flaming burst, vorpal, throwing and returning), NoNW is the only choice. So keep that in mind.

Now, onto the details. The NoNW itself costs 600 gp. A +1 NoNW costs 2,600. A +1 NoNW for three weapons costs 7,800. That's assuming you just get +1 and be done with it; if, instead, you wanted to add properties, you would take the 600, add the cost of the enhancements, and triple the total. It adds up.

By contrast, as I mentioned, the AoMF is cheap. According to the DMG 3.5, an AoMF +1 costs a measly 6,000. At +2, it costs 24,000, at +3 54,000, at +4 96,000, and the +5 model costs a whopping 150,000. It sounds like a lot, but if you plan to enhance your bite as well as your claws and unarmed strikes, the AoMF might be cheaper.

Note that I said if. Because here's the thing - I don't think it's worth it to you to enhance your bite. Unless you really want it, a NoNW that enhances claws and unarmed strikes is still pretty great, and you get to double the bonus. Think about it. Say you have a NoNW or AoMF that gives a +1 bonus to your unarmed strikes and your claws, and you're using Beast Strike. Your unarmed attacks get a +1 to hit. They also deal +2 damage. Why? Because the item adds +1 to unarmed strike damage, and +1 to claw damage - and both of these are added to your unarmed strikes. So they deal 1d3+1 +1d4+1, or 1d3+1d4+2. Also, both of your claw attacks gain the same +1 to hit and +1 damage. So enhancing both unarmed strikes and claws helps you.

Enhancing bite? Not so much. It's a nice little supplemental damage source, but think of the savings if you abstain from it.

[BladeofObliviom]

Since nobody's brought it up yet and we're talking about enchanting natural weapons, the Kensai (http://dndtools.eu/classes/kensai/) is an incredibly entertaining class to play and rather fits the bit of Shyvana's fluff where she's a Knight in the service of Jarvan IV. Unfortunately doesn't play well with Black Blood Cultist (or Barbarian for that matter), though.

[LoyalPaladin]

Okay. First off, Beast Strike is from Dragon Magazine, so make sure it flies with your DM.
I'll definitely bring it up with him. He is a really cool guy, so it probably wont be a big deal. Better safe than sorry though.


Let's look at how it all plays out: On a full attack, at level 20, you get: Four iterative unarmed strikes, dealing unarmed damage (1d3) plus claw damage (1d4) Two claw attacks at your highest BAB -5, dealing 1d4 One bite attack at your highest BAB -5, dealing 1d6That's pretty great, isn't it?
That makes sense. Those are all full attacks though right? Just for clarity's sake on my end. Per turn I can chose to either do the unarmed strike (adding the claw damages) or to do the claw attacks with one bite correct? Or are you saying I can do ALL of those in one round.




If, however, you want to add special effects (e.g. flaming burst, vorpal, throwing and returning), NoNW is the only choice. So keep that in mind.
Then NoNW it is. I wanted to put flaming burst on them somehow.


Enhancing bite? Not so much. It's a nice little supplemental damage source, but think of the savings if you abstain from it.
I agree with you, I'll just leave bite alone.

[LoyalPaladin]

Since nobody's brought it up yet and we're talking about enchanting natural weapons, the Kensai (http://dndtools.eu/classes/kensai/) is an incredibly entertaining class to play and rather fits the bit of Shyvana's fluff where she's a Knight in the service of Jarvan IV. Unfortunately doesn't play well with Black Blood Cultist (or Barbarian for that matter), though.
I actually thought about Kensai, but the only issue for me is that I feel like Shyvana is not refined at all. I think giving up the knight archetype for the rage feature really works for Shyvana. I also don't plan on playing her in conjunction with other League characters, so I can't really serve J4. That is a really cool point though, I didn't realize Kensai could augment Natural Attacks. Food for thought if I decide to keep NWF but stray from Shyvana. Thank you.

[ComaVision]

I'd switch the LA +3 half-dragon template for the LA +0 dragonborn template. Same feel, way less LA. You could also look at the Wild template, which is also LA +0 and seems fitting for this character.

It's worth noting that if you pick up Totemist levels, the dragonblood subtype lets you get some other soulmelds (dragon claws and tail, for starters). An easy way to get full attacks with all your natural weapons is take a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for the ability to pounce. You'd get a raging, draconic chick that runs up and unleashes a torrent of natural weapon strikes.

[Rubik]

Black Blood Cultist. It is bar none, the best Natural Attacker in the game, as a result of its 8th level ability.Except for psychic warrior. King/president/emperor of smack is a thing.

Oh, and totemists. Totemists are almost on par with psywars. They're crazy-good for natural weapons users.

And monks, if properly optimized. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

Taking a level in (chaos variant) monk will allow you to enhance your unarmed strikes directly, since monk bodies count as manufactured weapons for any and all effects when they're beneficial. (And enhancing your body with magic is beneficial.) You also should look up the weapon crystals from the Magic Item Compendium. Much cheaper if you want flamey bursty death on your natural weapons.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd switch the LA +3 half-dragon template for the LA +0 dragonborn template. Same feel, way less LA. You could also look at the Wild template, which is also LA +0 and seems fitting for this character.

It's worth noting that if you pick up Totemist levels, the dragonblood subtype lets you get some other soulmelds (dragon claws and tail, for starters). An easy way to get full attacks with all your natural weapons is take a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for the ability to pounce. You'd get a raging, draconic chick that runs up and unleashes a torrent of natural weapon strikes.

Note: Dragonborn has no native access to natural weapons, so you'd need to take Shape Soulmeld (Dragon Claws).

[Red Fel]

That makes sense. Those are all full attacks though right? Just for clarity's sake on my end. Per turn I can chose to either do the unarmed strike (adding the claw damages) or to do the claw attacks with one bite correct? Or are you saying I can do ALL of those in one round.

That's right, those are full attacks. A standard action attack will just be a single strike, and I'd suggest using your primary unarmed strike for that. With Beast Strike, you add your claw damage anyway (so you're looking at 1d3+1d4+modifiers).

As an aside, there are two Barbarian ACFs that you want. The first, mentioned by Coma, is the Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion. (Not to be confused with the Lion Totem from Unearthed Arcana. Different kitty.) It replaces your Fast Movement with Pounce, which (as Coma mentioned) allows you to make a full attack on a charge.

The second is the Whirling Frenzy variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) from Unearthed Arcana. It replaces your Rage with Whirling Frenzy. Among other things, Whirling Frenzy allows you to make an extra attack during the round, in exchange for taking -2 to hit with all attacks that round. But since you're a shredding machine, take the risk.

Other things to consider are Snap Kick (gives you an extra unarmed attack whenever you attack), Shock Trooper (if you Power Attack during a charge, you can assign the penalty to AC instead of to attack), and one of my favorite combos, which I will now outline.

Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command. Note first that this combo requires a fair amount of Cha. Lucky you, you've got it. So here's what you get: Instantaneous Rage is a feat that allows you to rage in response to someone else's actions, even when it's not your turn. Intimidating Rage is a feat that allows you to demoralize an opponent when you enter a rage. Never Outnumbered is a skill trick that allows you to demoralize multiple opponents whenever you would demoralize one. Imperious Command is a feat that allows you to drive a demoralized opponent directly to Cowering for one round, then Shaken the round after.So, at the drop of a hat, you can fly into a rage and cause anybody on the field to start cowering. No saves, just a skill check on your part. And that's how it works. Three feats, one skill trick, and you can lock down a battlefield instantly.

Lastly, you might consider a Warblade dip for the Punishing Stance stance. It adds 1d6 to every attack you make, at the cost of -2 AC. Since you make multiple unarmed strikes, plus two claws, plus a bite, that's +1d6 for each. Which is mighty fine. It also allows you access to Ironheart Aura and Stormguard Warrior, the latter of which is super-fun for seriously explosive full attack actions.

[Bluydee]

In addition, if you take Whirling Frenzy, I suggest also taking the feat Reckless Rage. It gives +2 strength and con in exchange for -2 ac while raging, which, when using Whirling Frenzy, means you end up with +6 strength, +2 con, an extra attack, and +1 to reflex.

[gorfnab]

The feats Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike from Draconomicon may be worth looking into for any paired natural attacks you may have, such as claws or wings.

A level of Soul Eater from Book of Vile Darkness is awesome on natural attack based builds.

[Extra Anchovies]

The feats Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike from Draconomicon may be worth looking into for any paired natural attacks you may have, such as claws or wings.

A level of Soul Eater from Book of Vile Darkness is awesome on natural attack based builds.

I've never entirely understood the Rapidstrike chain's effect. It essentially lets you make your full BAB-derived iteratives with one natural weapon and then attack with the rest, right?

[Red Fel]

I've never entirely understood the Rapidstrike chain's effect. It essentially lets you make your full BAB-derived iteratives with one natural weapon and then attack with the rest, right?

Sort of. Rapidstrike allows you to strike one extra time with a paired natural weapon (at a -5 penalty). Thus, for a creature with two claws and Rapidstrike, he could make two claw attacks at full BAB, then one at -5. Improved Rapidstrike lets you make (essentially) iteratives, however; you make your natural weapon attack at full BAB (here, two claws), followed by two or more at -5, -10, etc., to a maximum of four extra attacks.

And yes, you can attack with the rest of your natural weapons.

The problems: (1) the Rapidstrike chain is type-locked to more traditional monsters - which is no issue for a Half-Dragon, who gains the appropriate type; and (2) the feats require a fairly high BAB (+10 and +15, respectively), meaning they take a long time to come online. Admittedly, #2 isn't that big a deal either - until you hit BAB +10, you're still making two claw attacks; once you hit BAB +10, you can take Rapidstrike, and make two claw attacks at full BAB (as opposed to unarmed strikes at iterative BAB) followed by a third at -5. And once you hit BAB +15, you're making two claw attacks at +15, one at +10, one at +5. In theory you could make four additional attacks, with the last one at a net BAB -5, but that's reading into things, I think.

On re-read, this is an option if you want to forgo Improved Unarmed Strikes and Beast Strike, and focus solely on claw attacks. You're not getting the damage boost from Beast Strike (all of 1d3), but you're getting iterative claw attacks. Worth consideration.

[LoyalPaladin]

Whoa. This thread has taken off quite a bit while I slept.

Except for psychic warrior. King/president/emperor of smack is a thing.

Oh, and totemists. Totemists are almost on par with psywars. They're crazy-good for natural weapons users.
That is one thing that is difficult, our program that we use (HeroForge) hasn't really ever worked with variant classes and no one really knows why... on another note, I really like the Black Blood Cultist because their level stacks with Barbarian when considering rage.


You also should look up the weapon crystals from the Magic Item Compendium. Much cheaper if you want flamey bursty death on your natural weapons.
Can someone direct me to where I can read about this?


On re-read, this is an option if you want to forgo Improved Unarmed Strikes and Beast Strike, and focus solely on claw attacks. You're not getting the damage boost from Beast Strike (all of 1d3), but you're getting iterative claw attacks. Worth consideration.
I think that is really worth noting... unfortunately you need Improved Unarmed Strikes for Black Blood Cultist. But I would consider dropping Beast Strike and Power Attack from my build... I will update to a level 18 (ECL 21) build up top. Also:

Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered + Imperious Command. Note first that this combo requires a fair amount of Cha. Lucky you, you've got it. So here's what you get: Instantaneous Rage is a feat that allows you to rage in response to someone else's actions, even when it's not your turn. Intimidating Rage is a feat that allows you to demoralize an opponent when you enter a rage. Never Outnumbered is a skill trick that allows you to demoralize multiple opponents whenever you would demoralize one. Imperious Command is a feat that allows you to drive a demoralized opponent directly to Cowering for one round, then Shaken the round after.So, at the drop of a hat, you can fly into a rage and cause anybody on the field to start cowering. No saves, just a skill check on your part. And that's how it works. Three feats, one skill trick, and you can lock down a battlefield instantly.
This is awesome.

[Rubik]

That is one thing that is difficult, our program that we use (HeroForge) hasn't really ever worked with variant classes and no one really knows why...Chaos monk is the only variant involved, and you basically trade your alignment (Lawful to Chaotic) and flurry of sucks to flailing strike (1dX+Y attacks on a full attack, which averages out to better than the flurry).


on another note, I really like the Black Blood Cultist because their level stacks with Barbarian when considering rage.There is that, but it's not that good of a class, overall, especially when Extra Rage is a thing -- and psychic warriors give bonus feats you can use to free up your HD-based feats to trade for it. And the Expansion power alone is better than the entire BBC class.


Can someone direct me to where I can read about this?Uh...


You also should look up the weapon crystals from the Magic Item Compendium. Much cheaper if you want flamey bursty death on your natural weapons.Page 64.