Trying to simplify combat for PbP game?

[littlebum2002]

I'm DM in a PbP campaign, and we have a bit of an issue when it comes to combat. It sucks. No one really likes doing it, it slows down everything to a crawl, and honestly I'd rather avoid it as much as possible.

I've heard many people advertise campaigns that are very combat-lite, but how? How can things get resolved without resorting to combat? Or is there a way to make combat quick and easy on PbP? I want this to be an exciting campaign, and their last battle against 4 easy opponents took the wind out of everyone's sails , took months, and lost us a player. How should I fix this problem?

[dascarletm]

Disclaimer: I've never played in a PbP game so take my words with a grain of salt.



I've heard many people advertise campaigns that are very combat-lite, but how?


I've done many sessions where not a single round of combat was played out. Of course this is usually due to the players not having an itchy trigger finger.



How can things get resolved without resorting to combat?
There are many ways to solve situations before resorting to violence, you do it every day (I assume). As far as specifics I'd need a specific example to tackle some of the possibilities.

[Psyren]

D&D and PF are very combat-heavy so, sad though it is to say you may want to try a different system all together.

If you guys do want to stick with these, maybe block off some time that works for everyone and get them onto an online tabletop like Roll20 or something.

[littlebum2002]

Switching to a new system isn't an option. Doing combat in real time is an option, but it's not very likely.


I mean, I understand I don't engage in combat every day, but I'm not trying to stop people from conquering the world. What, for example, should they do at the BBEG? Have him just surrender? Run? I mean, they're good players in that they TRY to resolve situations without combat, but I as the DM just can't figure out how to do it. This guy wants to conquer the world, they want to arrest him. Hes not very likely to just give himself in, is he?

[torrasque666]

Use roll20 on your own for these purposes. When combat starts, after everyone rolls initiative, allow them to place their token within a certain area marked out on it in the order of initiative. When they want to make a move, have them send you a picture of any change they were going to make(movement, what they are attacking, etc.) on it in their own color. Moves these tokens on your roll20 map. When everyone has taken their action, post the new map. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm going to go on a limb and say that your players would not be happy if you use roll20, and those who cannot attend tell another player they select what their intentions are likely to be and play for them?

[busterswd]

Find a way to minimize dice rolls. You could scale down HP a lot for boss fights, like so:

BBEG is moderately tough, so 3/3 HP. You have a fighter, rogue, and cleric with 1 HP each.

Fighter takes a swing at BBEG (his to-hit opposed to BBEG AC). He hits, one damage.
Rogue stabs BBEG with an exotic poison (his to hit vs. BBEG Fort). He hits, two damage.
Cleric takes a swing with his mace. He misses.

BBEG goes. He rolls to-hit vs. Fighter AC and hits. Fighter goes down.

Rogue stabs. He misses.
Cleric swings and hits. Three damage, BBEG down, combat over.

If you want to give actual class differences, you can do things like give the Fighter an extra HP and priority targeting (he gets hit first), Cleric can bring someone back up once, Rogue deals 2 HP on a crit, etc.



And just model minion type encounters by having someone in the party roll a d20 against a specific check (5 for easy encounter, 10 for moderate, 15 for hard.)

-10 vs. check = They lost. They need to retreat, rest, and do the encounter again, OR find a different solution to the combat.
-5 vs check = They won, but they took a beating and need to find a safe place to rest to keep moving.
0 vs check = They succeeded and didn't take a lot of damage; they keep moving.
+5 vs check = They did well; they get a +2 bonus on their next combat.

[Namfuak]

Would it make it any faster to take turns asynchronously? For example, each player could post their actions that round out of initiative order, and if something happens before them in initiative that would cause them to not take one of their actions, like their ally kills a monster they were going to attack, they can change what they do on the fly and with minimal rerolling, in this case just choosing a different monster to attack but using the same attack and damage rolls. You could even try resolving it like Diplomacy does where everyone's moves happen at the same time, and use initiative to determine the order of two actions that conflict, such as a person attacking a monster which tries to move away from them.

[DarkOne-Rob]

I don't have time to post details now, but I have some advice based on running two PbP games successfully (adventures and campaigns with a healthy amount of combat) and participating in several more.

Check out the games of which I am a part from my profile, and I will try to post some thoughts tomorrow.

For now, can you give us some details on what specifically is slowing down the game so much? Initiative order? Use or lack of maps? Confusion on mechanics? Players trying to over-strategize?

DMing a PbP game is tough, and combat is particularly so. Any info you can give us on the particular problems you have had will help us give relevant advice.

[PsyBomb]

One big thing I like is implementing initiative as "PCs" and "NPCs". I only use hard initiative in surprise rounds and in case of a tightly-timed event (such as racing to grab a MacGuffin off an altar). The PCs can throw their rolls up in any order they feel like, you just have to make sure to update with action results frequently.

In other minutiae, make sure your characters tell you what they will default to for AoO attempts, and it is often a good idea to tell them what various enemies roll for their own AoOs in order to streamline posts which would require a lot of time to resolve otherwise (which would be ~10 seconds at an actual table)

[littlebum2002]

I'll post more details tomorrow. Thanks for your help though.

[littlebum2002]

Anyway, there are 2 issues I really find.

One I've pretty much solved, and that is the initiative issue. I roll initiative for each pc and enemy, then put them in order, but all the characters initiatives become genetic Pc Initiative, and any PC can use them, so we don't have to wait on a specific person.

The second issue is time. Even if everyone posts once per day, itjust takes SO LONG to finish combat. (No one in my game us powerful enough to finish combat in one round). So even when everyone posts when they're supposed to, it seems that combat takes weeks, and honestly, it feels REALLY boring.

Yes, a way to simplify combat would be nice, but what I'm REALLY looking for are good ways to roleplay where combat only happens when strictly necessary.

[FearlessGnome]

Here's what I do: I divide combats into "Normal" and "PCs might actually die" combats. For normal combats, I use initiative but everyone can post their actions whenever, and then I just resolve them in order. Fail to post within 24 hours and I act for you.

For "PCs might die" battles it slows down a little. I roll initiative and might end up with something like:
PC1: 24
NPC1: 20
PC2: 18
PC3: 17
PC4: 12
NPC2: 10
PC5: 2

PC1 posts, then NPC1, then PC2-4 can post in any order, and their actions happen in the order they post, then NPC2 acts, then PC5 and PC1 can post in any order, then NP1, then PC2-4, etc. Where there's only one enemy or I have them act at the same time it's simply: PCs faster than NPC -> NPC -> All PCs -> NPC -> All PCs. So high initiative is rewarded but after that it's just everyone at once.

[DarkOne-Rob]

The Play-by-Post medium creates some issues with combat that it doesn't with role playing. It is going to go slower than even the most drawn out table top game - that is just the nature of the venue. To combat this and keep things moving ahead at a pace that doesn't kill the motivation of the players two things need to happen (IMO):

1. The players must post daily with an easily understood format that allows the DM to understand their intent quickly.
2. The DM must adjudicate combat (using initiative) after taking in all the input from the players, often adjusting things slightly (in the PCs' best interest)

To elaborate on this subject - In our games I do not expect the players to post in initiative order, ever. We have an out-of-character thread for each game as well as a FaceBook conversation with all the players, and we use that to discuss anything that is not clearly in-character. I post the introduction to combat, ask for initiatives and the PCs' actions in Round 1, and then all of them post. Once all players have posted, I take the initiatives, planned actions, and map (we use google spreadsheets for maps, since they are relatively easy to share - other options may work well for you) and then I adjudicate what happens that round. My next post is a summary of Round 1 followed by re-linking the updated map and saying anything I need to say, followed by the players posting and repeating that process for Round 2.

It is a whole lot of work for the DM, but I think it is the best way to handle things. If one player (or more) delays their posting, I check in with them and either post actions for them or we wait. Our longest interruption was for travel and weddings and lasted I think 1-2 weeks. Otherwise, we have been playing for nearly a year without disruption.

For the sake of everyone, here are the formats we use in our games for combat posts:

Round #

Flavorful text describing the events of that round of combat in initiative order. This section is often written after first posting a "Reserved" block here and allowing the dice roller to function. Then I edit this paragraph to take into account all variables (like NPC attack rolls) and go from there.

In this space I list all PCs in initiative order, inserting NPCs and monsters at their initiative order.

Once listed, I refer to the posts by the players and adjudicate which actions work and how based on the map, their dice rolls, etc...

This area takes the most time to format, as the NPC/Monster rolls can get involved, and any saving throws or attacks of opportunity need to be handled. It often results in editing (of text) to note which rolls succeeded and which failed, and is really a trial-and-error sort of thing.
In red I post a quick summary of my thoughts and needs from the PCs and link the map (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fXxrGaewhcYkBXwdZbYT0yZs3hLAiwZ-H6NKgzTHLRQ/edit?usp=drive_web).

In the final spoiler I write any notes I need to manage combat, including hidden information. If the players read this spoiler, they are just ruining things for themselves, so we work on the honor system. So far it has worked, but I am largely playing with close friends and families, so your mileage may vary.
Round #

I copy and paste the character status block from MythWeavers character sheets here. You can use other methods, but this way the DM has all the defenses, weapon bonuses, saving throws, etc... in a handy place for each PC.
Flavorful in-character description of my PC's actions, including anything he/she says to the other PCs or NPCs/Monsters.

List all actions, including a description of the type of action (free, immediate, swift, move, standard) taken by the PC this round. Include all dice rolls necessary, and if you expect attacks of opportunity, roll them too. I would also encourage you to roll for critical confirmations ahead of time - if you don't threaten, the roll is unneeded, but if you do threaten, you save a post.

If there is any doubt that an action will work or be necessary, I encourage players to write a list of possible actions (target order, "if" "or" statements) - really anything that will better express the intent of the player for the PCs' actions.

Anyway, there are 2 issues I really find.

One I've pretty much solved, and that is the initiative issue. I roll initiative for each pc and enemy, then put them in order, but all the characters initiatives become genetic Pc Initiative, and any PC can use them, so we don't have to wait on a specific person.

The second issue is time. Even if everyone posts once per day, itjust takes SO LONG to finish combat. (No one in my game us powerful enough to finish combat in one round). So even when everyone posts when they're supposed to, it seems that combat takes weeks, and honestly, it feels REALLY boring.

Yes, a way to simplify combat would be nice, but what I'm REALLY looking for are good ways to roleplay where combat only happens when strictly necessary.
Your solution for initiative isn't bad. It is certainly better than expecting everyone to post in their PCs' initiative order. Consider how much work you as a DM are willing to do and decide if the option I suggest above is better for you.

There really is no solution to this except to push your players to post daily (at least) and to encourage clarity and well-read understanding of the rules and mechanics when they do post. Combat takes longer in PbP - that's the cost for the perks of this medium of gaming.

[DarkOne-Rob]

An important point I forgot to mention: At no point is a dice roll visible outside a spoiler. This breaks the immersive aspect of the storytelling, and is one of the best things about the PbP format. If you look at one of my games' IC threads and read it from the beginning, you will see what is (roughly) a work of cooperative fantasy literature. The dice rolls are all behind spoilers, and the adjudication of the mechanics and rules happens there too.

That means you never see "AC" or "Saving throw" or "AoO" or... outside a spoiler. You see descriptive text and dialogue.

My players tell me it is one of the best parts about our games - that they read like a novel, not a treatise on dice rolling and math.

[littlebum2002]

Here's what I do: I divide combats into "Normal" and "PCs might actually die" combats. For normal combats, I use initiative but everyone can post their actions whenever, and then I just resolve them in order. Fail to post within 24 hours and I act for you.

For "PCs might die" battles it slows down a little. I roll initiative and might end up with something like:
PC1: 24
NPC1: 20
PC2: 18
PC3: 17
PC4: 12
NPC2: 10
PC5: 2

PC1 posts, then NPC1, then PC2-4 can post in any order, and their actions happen in the order they post, then NPC2 acts, then PC5 and PC1 can post in any order, then NP1, then PC2-4, etc. Where there's only one enemy or I have them act at the same time it's simply: PCs faster than NPC -> NPC -> All PCs -> NPC -> All PCs. So high initiative is rewarded but after that it's just everyone at once.

That's literally exactly what I do




The Play-by-Post medium creates some issues with combat that it doesn't with role playing. It is going to go slower than even the most drawn out table top game - that is just the nature of the venue. To combat this and keep things moving ahead at a pace that doesn't kill the motivation of the players two things need to happen (IMO):

1. The players must post daily with an easily understood format that allows the DM to understand their intent quickly.
2. The DM must adjudicate combat (using initiative) after taking in all the input from the players, often adjusting things slightly (in the PCs' best interest)

To elaborate on this subject - In our games I do not expect the players to post in initiative order, ever. We have an out-of-character thread for each game as well as a FaceBook conversation with all the players, and we use that to discuss anything that is not clearly in-character. I post the introduction to combat, ask for initiatives and the PCs' actions in Round 1, and then all of them post. Once all players have posted, I take the initiatives, planned actions, and map (we use google spreadsheets for maps, since they are relatively easy to share - other options may work well for you) and then I adjudicate what happens that round. My next post is a summary of Round 1 followed by re-linking the updated map and saying anything I need to say, followed by the players posting and repeating that process for Round 2.

It is a whole lot of work for the DM, but I think it is the best way to handle things. If one player (or more) delays their posting, I check in with them and either post actions for them or we wait. Our longest interruption was for travel and weddings and lasted I think 1-2 weeks. Otherwise, we have been playing for nearly a year without disruption.

For the sake of everyone, here are the formats we use in our games for combat posts:

Round #

Flavorful text describing the events of that round of combat in initiative order. This section is often written after first posting a "Reserved" block here and allowing the dice roller to function. Then I edit this paragraph to take into account all variables (like NPC attack rolls) and go from there.

In this space I list all PCs in initiative order, inserting NPCs and monsters at their initiative order.

Once listed, I refer to the posts by the players and adjudicate which actions work and how based on the map, their dice rolls, etc...

This area takes the most time to format, as the NPC/Monster rolls can get involved, and any saving throws or attacks of opportunity need to be handled. It often results in editing (of text) to note which rolls succeeded and which failed, and is really a trial-and-error sort of thing.
In red I post a quick summary of my thoughts and needs from the PCs and link the map (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fXxrGaewhcYkBXwdZbYT0yZs3hLAiwZ-H6NKgzTHLRQ/edit?usp=drive_web).

In the final spoiler I write any notes I need to manage combat, including hidden information. If the players read this spoiler, they are just ruining things for themselves, so we work on the honor system. So far it has worked, but I am largely playing with close friends and families, so your mileage may vary.
Round #

I copy and paste the character status block from MythWeavers character sheets here. You can use other methods, but this way the DM has all the defenses, weapon bonuses, saving throws, etc... in a handy place for each PC.
Flavorful in-character description of my PC's actions, including anything he/she says to the other PCs or NPCs/Monsters.

List all actions, including a description of the type of action (free, immediate, swift, move, standard) taken by the PC this round. Include all dice rolls necessary, and if you expect attacks of opportunity, roll them too. I would also encourage you to roll for critical confirmations ahead of time - if you don't threaten, the roll is unneeded, but if you do threaten, you save a post.

If there is any doubt that an action will work or be necessary, I encourage players to write a list of possible actions (target order, "if" "or" statements) - really anything that will better express the intent of the player for the PCs' actions.

Your solution for initiative isn't bad. It is certainly better than expecting everyone to post in their PCs' initiative order. Consider how much work you as a DM are willing to do and decide if the option I suggest above is better for you.

There really is no solution to this except to push your players to post daily (at least) and to encourage clarity and well-read understanding of the rules and mechanics when they do post. Combat takes longer in PbP - that's the cost for the perks of this medium of gaming.

I considered doing this method, but didn't, and I can't remember why. I'll have to go through my OOC thread to remind myself. Either way, I'm definitely adopting your other ideas.

[Nerjin]

I don't do it on this forum [[haven't played here]] but on another forum where I DM a few games I generally follow the following rule:

1. I roll initiative for each PC individually. They do not roll this. [[Making them roll this just eats up a ton of time.]]

2. I average the initiatives of the enemy and roll once for that. All monsters go in any order I want but they always act on that initiative count. [[This way players can post one after the other and not have to wait for a single goblin to do something.]]

3. Didn't post a combat action in 48 hours? I let another PC choose what you do. [[People have lives so I do allow for two days. Which is honestly far more time than you should need but I am a generous man.]]

Combat initiative might look like this:

Figgy Fighter: 13+3
Monsters: 10+2 [[Three +2's and a +3 averages out around 2]]
Ronald Rogue: 1+4
Maggy Mage: 2+2

If there are multiple sides in a fight every non PC side gets a seperate initiative roll.

Don't know if that's helpful, but I sorta like it that way.

[jaydubs]

You could try to simplify combat significantly. It would speed things up, but probably remove most tactical choices. This is just a quick example, probably runs into some problems:

Divide every character into ranged or melee based on their capabilities. Melee characters have the option of blocking, which prevents enemy melee from targeting 1 friendly ranged character. Melee characters can opt not to block. Ranged characters can attack any other character. Area of effect will hit 1/3 of enemies, DM's choice besides the first target, rounding down.

Now everyone just rolls initiative, picks a valid target, and rolls their attacks. You can even roll multiple rounds in succession, simply designating your order of priority regarding targets, and disregarding rolls if characters become incapacitated. The DM describes how things play out based on those rolls, hopefully in an entertaining manner.

[littlebum2002]

I don't do it on this forum [[haven't played here]] but on another forum where I DM a few games I generally follow the following rule:

1. I roll initiative for each PC individually. They do not roll this. [[Making them roll this just eats up a ton of time.]]

2. I average the initiatives of the enemy and roll once for that. All monsters go in any order I want but they always act on that initiative count. [[This way players can post one after the other and not have to wait for a single goblin to do something.]]

3. Didn't post a combat action in 48 hours? I let another PC choose what you do. [[People have lives so I do allow for two days. Which is honestly far more time than you should need but I am a generous man.]]

Combat initiative might look like this:

Figgy Fighter: 13+3
Monsters: 10+2 [[Three +2's and a +3 averages out around 2]]
Ronald Rogue: 1+4
Maggy Mage: 2+2

If there are multiple sides in a fight every non PC side gets a seperate initiative roll.

Don't know if that's helpful, but I sorta like it that way.


I like all these ideas. Stealing them all.


Also, as much as simplifying characters and combat would help, these characters are already created so that's not an option.