Bluff Check at +49

[Barbarian Horde]

Never gotten my bluff this high in a campaign before so I wanted an opinion on the subject for it's epic use.

Sense Motive Modifier +50

Instill Suggestion in Target

This is identical to the effect of the suggestion spell, except that it is nonmagical and lasts for only 10 minutes. It can be sensed as if it were an enchantment effect (Sense Motive DC 25).
Am I to understand that if if they don't beat my Bluff check after receiving a +50 I get a free no save suggestion? So I could keep making bluffs/suggestions till I won until their sense motive reached a 25?

Granted we are level 6 so after checking other player sheets no one really has the ability beat the sense motive cap. Now I was given 300,000g so I could be on par with the other characters.. I just grab all charisma gear for my bard.

[KillianHawkeye]

Never gotten my bluff this high in a campaign before so I wanted an opinion on the subject for it's epic use.

Am I to understand that if if they don't beat my Bluff check after receiving a +50 I get a free no save suggestion? So I could keep making bluffs/suggestions till I won until their sense motive reached a 25?

It doesn't say they don't get a saving throw.

[MilesTiden]

Not quite. When using Bluff to make a suggestion, they make an opposed Sense Motive check vs your Bluff check, with a +50 bonus. Basically, they would have to beat your dice roll - 1 with their Sense Motive check. The DC 25 is to detect the Suggestion effect that's on them, not to resist it/to reach to cause the effect.

[Galen]

It doesn't say they don't get a saving throw.
I would interpret it as the Sense Motive check at a very generous bonus of +50 is their saving throw.

[Barbarian Horde]

Okay so if their sense motive doesn't beat my bluff which basically I would be rolling off against them at the moment with a -1. I win with luck; They don't save against the suggestion because my epic bluff use won out?

[MilesTiden]

Yep. however they still get their Sense Motive bonus, so it's not always just a straight dice roll (and you can bet anyone particularly high up or important is gonna have max ranks :smallbiggrin:) Things that block mind-affecting effects also block it, as do save bonuses/immunities to compulsion effects. Still a good trick, though.

[Barbarian Horde]

That +49 is without glibness... I Might be able to win after casting often. :smallbiggrin:

Ok I just wanted to check on that.


13 from Charisma score
3 from char circulet
2 from synergy Knowledge nobility
5 Mask of lies
1 loun stone
4 from persisted mask of ideal
10 Choker of Eloquence Greater
9 from ranks
30 Glibness
79 minimum once I get my level 3 spells lol this game gonna get exciting

[Crake]

Yep. however they still get their Sense Motive bonus, so it's not always just a straight dice roll (and you can bet anyone particularly high up or important is gonna have max ranks :smallbiggrin:) Things that block mind-affecting effects also block it, as do save bonuses/immunities to compulsion effects. Still a good trick, though.

Personally I'd rule that protection from magical charms and compulsions wouldnt help against it, since it's completely mundane, and has no mind affecting or compulsion/charm tags.

It's worth noting that glibness wouldn't help, because it's only useful for "made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.) "

It might also be worth re-reading the suggestion rules, because suggestion is often over-estimated in power.

[XionUnborn01]

That +49 is without glibness... I Might be able to win after casting often. :smallbiggrin:

Ok I just wanted to check on that.


13 from Charisma score
3 from char circulet
2 from synergy Knowledge nobility
5 Mask of lies
1 loun stone
4 from persisted mask of ideal
10 Choker of Eloquence Greater
9 from ranks
30 Glibness
79 minimum once I get my level 3 spells lol this game gonna get exciting

Choker of Eloquence and Mask of the Ideal are both competence bonuses, so you would only get the 10 from the choker.
Also, as crake said, glibness is only able to convince people of a lie which is not what you're doing.

[Troacctid]

Choker of Eloquence and Mask of the Ideal are both competence bonuses, so you would only get the 10 from the choker.
Also, as crake said, glibness is only able to convince people of a lie which is not what you're doing.

And if the ioun stone is of the pale green prism or pink and green sphere variety, that doesn't stack either.

Also do you really have 36 Cha at level 6 before enhancement bonuses? Because that's kind of ridiculous.

[TypoNinja]

It might also be worth re-reading the suggestion rules, because suggestion is often over-estimated in power.

Almost all mind control magic is, it rather annoys me.

The effects of bluff usually are too. Believing you and doing what you want are two different things, but so many people seem to equate winning the bluff to the target doing what they want.

[Talya]

Almost all mind control magic is, it rather annoys me.

The effects of bluff usually are too. Believing you and doing what you want are two different things, but so many people seem to equate winning the bluff to the target doing what they want.

Generally, if you can get a target to believe a certain action is within their best interests or the best interests of their ideology, they will perform that action.

[Aegis013]

Almost all mind control magic is, it rather annoys me.

The effects of bluff usually are too. Believing you and doing what you want are two different things, but so many people seem to equate winning the bluff to the target doing what they want.

Well, that's because by the rules, a successful Bluff check can be used to make the target do what you want, although it is somewhat limited.

SRD:Bluff Skill (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bluff_Skill)

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell.

Emphasis mine.

[supersonic29]

You've certainly got a fun trick there. For those items that have been pointed out to not stack I'd scour for some others, unnamed bonuses are the gold mine if any exist for bluff.

And while glibness won't impact your suggestion, 'classic' bluffs are good too and it's a wonderful bard spell. Do brush up on suggestion and bluff though, never want to be called out for essentially cheating along the way, whether you meant it or not.

[Chronos]

Circlet of Persuasion is another competence bonus. You might also want to look up Voice of the Dragon and Serene Visage-- I don't recall offhand what bonus types they give.

You might also want to dip one level each in Marshal and possibly Warlock. Marshal, with the Motivate Charisma aura, will give you your Cha again, and Warlock, with Beguiling Influence, will be another +6. Both are typeless bonuses, and so will stack with everything you've already got.

There's also Shape Soulmeld: Silvertongue Mask, which is a +4 insight bonus, or more if you can get some essentia.

[Barbarian Horde]

DM for what ever reason decided to give us 300,000g.

After rereading the rule my charisma and several items i need to trash. I found that same ability bonus enchants do not stack as well but in fact the highest one takes priority unless its a size change.

Ended up with a cloak of magnificence +6

Charismas is up to 24.

[TypoNinja]

DM for what ever reason decided to give us 300,000g.

After rereading the rule my charisma and several items i need to trash. I found that same ability bonus enchants do not stack as well but in fact the highest one takes priority unless its a size change.

Ended up with a cloak of magnificence +6

Charismas is up to 24.

With 300 grand you can pick up the book to give you a +5 inherent bonus as well.