Monsters to use in a Null Magic Zone

[Crake]

So I have an upcoming adventure that takes place for my players in a null magic zone. It'll be mostly traversing mountainous terrain with some encounters along the way, but I was wondering what sorts of monsters to use. I want to have some interesting fights, as it's a pretty unique scenario, but it's hard for me to think of many completely mundane enemies that would be a fair fight in such a state. Only one of the characters has access to mundane flight, and she carries around a very large sniper rifle (long story) that she could use to pick off flying enemies, so I don't want enemies that exclusively use flying, because nobody else has any ranged options, so it would be pretty boring for everyone else.

[TheCrowing1432]

Depends on how creative you want to go.

Could be a tribe of goblins/kobolds who have used this tactic of laying down an antimagic field, and using their masterwork/mithril/adamantine/other alternate material weapons and armor to cut down adventurers and sell their gear.

Or maybe a tribe of trolls just happened to find a naturally occuring antimagic field near then den and utilize it to capture prey realizing that sometimes those squishy types with the pointy sticks suddenly cant do anything.

[LTwerewolf]

Why not use some giants?

[Extra Anchovies]

Why not use some giants?

Giants or a group of Ogres with class levels. Big creatures are scary when you don't have access to Enlarge Person or your Strength-enhancing buff spells.

[LTwerewolf]

Giants or a group of Ogres with class levels. Big creatures are scary when you don't have access to Enlarge Person or your Strength-enhancing buff spells.

And giants are pretty known to be around mountains and throw rocks at people. Entertaining.

[Crake]

Hmm, trolls are an interesting idea, no magical fire/acid, and the players dont carry around trollbane.

Giants with class levels could be interesting, although i'd worry about overwhelming the players, since no magic does level their playing field quite a bit.

The nearby area is tainted too, so i could either slap on tainted minion/raver templates, or use the giants from heros of horror.

Also, for clarification, it's a naturally occuring null magic zone, in quite a large area. Think approaching the spire in outlands.

[Psyren]

Oozes are pretty deadly in null magic because they can (a) eat the players' now-mundane weapons and (b) they will split if the players use the wrong kind of damage and a bad fight will quickly get worse. Constructs like golems are also deadly because their DR will matter more and their immunities will limit the effectiveness of mundane special attacks like poison or alchemy.

Swarms are a good way to TPK a mundane party.

[atemu1234]

I second trolls, because without magic that regeneration is a pain in the ass to get past. Fireball? Nope, not a chance. Acid Arrow? Can't. Maybe a flaming/corrosive burst weapon would work, but only maybe.

[Psyren]

Note that regeneration works very differently in PF vs. 3.5, so be aware of the system you're using.

[kellbyb]

What level range are you talking about?

Also, do you have any full casters in the party? Just wondering.

[Crake]

Note that regeneration works very differently in PF vs. 3.5, so be aware of the system you're using.

I'm using 3.5, and i know how it works, at least in this edition. I haven't played much pf, though i do use a few things from it, such as spellslinger (which one of my players is) and summoner (which a few NPCS are) along with words of power (which most full arcane and nature based divine casters are)


What level range are you talking about?

Also, do you have any full casters in the party? Just wondering.

This is a good point, the current level range is about level 13ish, however I'm using a homebrew variant rule which allows players to gestalt a few things, including LA, for an xp cost, so one of the players has +6LA and another will have +3 by the time they get to this point. The other two characters instead opted to do other things with their XP. Notably either item crafting, or one of the characters actually did some ritual stuff (mostly homebrew) to build themselves an ice assassin, which they use instead of actually going out and adventuring, while they stay home and be a family man.

As you can probably tell, i run a rather high powered game, but i'm a strong advocate for the horizontal power gain, rather than the vertical power gain, more versatility, rather than straight up more power. Sure the templates give them better stats to a degree, but so far, it hasn't really made my encounters any more or less challenging.

As for full casters, two of the characters are full casters, one using a snow variant of the sandshaper (think elsa or jack frost) the other is using a homebrew class that's kinda like a wizard/sorcerer/wordcaster hybrid that runs off both int and cha, has unlimited spells known (though they need to find every single one manually, and get no free spells at levelup) and can spontaneously cast any of them. That last character is also the one running the spellslinger character, and she spent a long time researching and testing out various gun designs using an item of fabricate that she made. Eventually I let her use guns from d20 modern, and she's using some explosive ammo on an anti-material rifle (no, not anti-matter) for 6d8 damage per shot, using her two familiars with readied actions to get around the full round action to reload each shot.

So I think, at the very least, the spellslinger will be fine, she actually made that rifle for this very trip and is the only one with a mundane flight option. The snowshaper will probably just opt out (I typically run opt-in, opt-out adventures, not everyone partakes in every adventure), so that leaves the two martial initiators. A full swordsage with some desert wind maneuvers which he will just not ready, and a warblade/psion/jade phoenix mage psionic adaption who this whole adventure is for, so he's coming regardless.

[Psyren]

I'm using 3.5, and i know how it works, at least in this edition. I haven't played much pf, though i do use a few things from it, such as spellslinger (which one of my players is) and summoner (which a few NPCS are) along with words of power (which most full arcane and nature based divine casters are)

The thread wasn't tagged so I didn't want to assume. Note that the 3.5 version of regen may impact your summoner(s).

[Crake]

The thread wasn't tagged so I didn't want to assume. Note that the 3.5 version of regen may impact your summoner(s).

For the most part, it hasn't come up at all, so no need to worry. I'll look into it for future proofing though, just in case.

[Afgncaap5]

One curious thing about non-magic is that it can take away certain kinds of DR. DR 5/silver is, I think, an extraordinary ability, but DR 5/good is a supernatural ability that can go away with antimagic.

So, there are some obscure situations where losing magic actually makes the DR of some monsters stronger (something that I found in an issue of Dragon.) Like, if a creature has DR 10/Adamantium Or Good, an antimagic field makes that DR 10/Adamantium, which is subtly more powerful.

A player would almost certainly not notice this feature, but it could give some monsters an extra pinch of protection.

[Crake]

One curious thing about non-magic is that it can take away certain kinds of DR. DR 5/silver is, I think, an extraordinary ability, but DR 5/good is a supernatural ability that can go away with antimagic.

So, there are some obscure situations where losing magic actually makes the DR of some monsters stronger (something that I found in an issue of Dragon.) Like, if a creature has DR 10/Adamantium Or Good, an antimagic field makes that DR 10/Adamantium, which is subtly more powerful.

A player would almost certainly not notice this feature, but it could give some monsters an extra pinch of protection.

I'm actually very aware of how DR and antimagic work, and it actually works the opposite of that. DR SU or EX (so in your example, adamantine or good) is completely negated. It's DR SU and EX that simply becomes DR EX, which is still easier to overcome.

For reference, material based and damage type based DR is mundane, and alignment/magic/epic type DR is supernatural. If they are combined with "or" and one of them is supernatural, the whole thing goes away. If they are combined with "and" only the supernatural requirement goes, so a null magic field never actually makes it harder to overcome.

[Afgncaap5]

I'm actually very aware of how DR and antimagic work, and it actually works the opposite of that. DR SU or EX (so in your example, adamantine or good) is completely negated. It's DR SU and EX that simply becomes DR EX, which is still easier to overcome.

For reference, material based and damage type based DR is mundane, and alignment/magic/epic type DR is supernatural. If they are combined with "or" and one of them is supernatural, the whole thing goes away. If they are combined with "and" only the supernatural requirement goes, so a null magic field never actually makes it harder to overcome.

I may be mistaken about something, then. The Sage Advice column in Dragon 330 says that only one component goes away (the supernatural one.) Did they later issue a retraction of that, or an update?

[Crake]

I may be mistaken about something, then. The Sage Advice column in Dragon 330 says that only one component goes away (the supernatural one.) Did they later issue a retraction of that, or an update?

I can't quite remember exactly where I read it, but it makes sense when you think about it. Think of it as the antimagic field nullifying the need for that kind of attribute. If you nullify the need for good on DR/good and silver, you still need silver to bypass it, but if you nullify the need for good in DR/good or silver, then you dont need the silver anymore, since the good has been overcome.

Edit: Ok, it seems the source i was thinking of was the 3.5 FAQ, and, having re-read it, it seems that you are actually correct, DR/silver or good does become DR/silver in an AMF. I will continue to use my houserule though, as I think it makes more sense.

[Afgncaap5]

I can't quite remember exactly where I read it, but it makes sense when you think about it. Think of it as the antimagic field nullifying the need for that kind of attribute. If you nullify the need for good on DR/good and silver, you still need silver to bypass it, but if you nullify the need for good in DR/good or silver, then you dont need the silver anymore, since the good has been overcome.

Edit: Ok, it seems the source i was thinking of was the 3.5 FAQ, and, having re-read it, it seems that you are actually correct, DR/silver or good does become DR/silver in an AMF. I will continue to use my houserule though, as I think it makes more sense.

Sounds good. And, really, they should probably differentiate it as two different things. DR 5/magic or DR 5/bludgeoning instead of DR 5/magic or bludgeoning. Especially if the reasoning for the two is different.

[Crake]

Sounds good. And, really, they should probably differentiate it as two different things. DR 5/magic or DR 5/bludgeoning instead of DR 5/magic or bludgeoning. Especially if the reasoning for the two is different.

Yeah, the way I see it, having DR/good and silver is the same as having DR/good and DR/silver separately, with DR/good being Su, and DR/silver being Ex, but DR/good or silver can't be split up like that, so I'd imagine that it needs to be all Su, and thus all go away in an AMF. But apparently that's a house rule, one I'm perfectly happy to admit to using.

Anyway, back on topic, monsters!

Oozes are quite devious for this, but I think my players would hate me for that, since they've already lost gear (or at least one of them has) to creatures like that (most notably a delver that ate the warblade's weapons and clothing, and caryatid columns that sundered his old axe. Oh, and an earth elemental that almost sundered his bastard sword. Yeah, poor guy, he's been through a lot)

Constructs on the other hand... I'd be tempted to say that they cease to function in this particular AMF, since it's not a spell effect, but an environmental one, where all magic ceases to function at all, so constructs powered by magic wouldn't be able to function.

So from the looks of things, giants and trolls are the way to go right now.

[daremetoidareyo]

A team of archer thieves all level 12. Each has a spy glass and a mirror used to signal along with some mutually agreed upon bird noises. Replace any of these dudes with some sort of alchemist.

Archer 1: scout5/highland stalker 7
Archer 2: ranger 5/darkwood stalker 7
Archer 3: fighter 2/warblade 6/peerless archer4
Archer 4: warblade5/bloodstorm blade5/cragtop archer5
"Archer" 5: Marshal9/combat trapsmith 3
Lastly: "Archer" 6: Someone who uses bolas, tanglefoot bags, & harpoons.

Thing is, these guys get rich robbing people in the anti magic field but can't use any of the magic gear.

[Extra Anchovies]

Thing is, these guys get rich robbing people in the anti magic field but can't use any of the magic gear.

They also wouldn't be able to tell which items were magical. So they'd have to collect every random belt, trinket, and shirt just in case it gives its wearer +5 to saving throws.

[Afgncaap5]

How about swarms? Without the Area of Effect capabilities of magic or usefulness of Air-based magic, swarms become that much more challenging.

[Astralia123]

Hordes of weaker undead creatures would do the trick, too.

Without magic, being outnumbered by even weak monsters could be horrific. Imagine your fighter being flanked by 8 ghouls, each attacks twice with +2 or more flank bonus, and each hit requires a fort check to avoid paralyse. And they are hell quick. No magic to take them instantly out, and no magic to heal your paralysing condition or disease and so on.

For a group without a competent fighter, even like 10 or 15 normal ghouls can send them running whole night. (Assuming their ACs are not high enough anyway.) If your group level is higher, you can use ghasts or a vampire surrounded by its spawns instead.
Elementals and magic beasts can be as horrible, and so do monsters with improved grapple attacks (like assassin vine?).


EDIT: My miss, energy drain is usually supernatural ability, so are most undead diseases.

[gooddragon1]

Something important to remember here: The circumstances (not just the monsters) are almost certainly going to be against the party here. Thus a CR 5 encounter becomes that much more difficult and perhaps is bumped several CR higher. It is not advisable to treat a CR equivalent encounter as the same difficulty when the circumstances start out against the party.

[Astralia123]

Note if monsters become too challenging, the party has no choices but to retreat.

[Malroth]

Assuming retreat is possible which it probably won't be since they don't have mundane flight.