first time DMing 5e; monster customization and NPC XP?

[odigity]

Helping a friend put together a 5e adventure for the first time, and stuck on a few questions:

1) Are there any rules/guidelines yet for modifying existing monsters? (I know it's coming in the DMG, but we can't wait.) For example, if I wanted to work up some stats for the leader of the Kobold tribe, or one of his henchman.

2) Are there any rules/guidelines for determining how much XP and NPC is worth? For example, if I create a 3rd lvl Rogue Assassin as an enemy NPC, and the PCs defeat him/her, how much XP should that be?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

there's no rules for modifying monsters yet, other than that you can swap equipment within reason and swap spells of the same level without changing cr. so you pretty much have to eyeball it. A lot of the basics (proficiency, HD, etc.) are pretty easy to figure out.

a good approach would be to find a creature that's already the CR you want, and keep comparing it to the creature you are creating.

Any given monster of the same CR currently has the same XP value, so just figure out what CR the monster is and you know its XP value. A 3rd level rogue would probably be CR2 simply because it could one shot level 1 characters with sneak attack. But I don't know the stats you are using.

[AuraTwilight]

Worst case scenario, you could always slap class levels on that kobold leader.

[Madfellow]

NPCs with PC classes have a challenge rating equal to their level, and an NPC's XP value is based solely on its challenge rating. Should be easy to figure out.

[Draken]

NPCs with PC classes have a challenge rating equal to their level, and an NPC's XP value is based solely on its challenge rating. Should be easy to figure out.

This is a 3.5 rule that was poor back then and no longer true for 5th. Take the archmage, for instance, fundamentally a level 18 wizard (lacking ancillary class features but complete with a 9th level spell), but at CR 12.

[Daishain]

NPCs with PC classes have a challenge rating equal to their level
Really? they shouldn't

Challenge rating is supposed to be based on the creature's ability to stand toe to toe with a four person PC group. As such I would expect an npc with class levels to have a CR somewhere around 1/4th of its class level, unless some other factor boosts or takes away from its combat effectiveness.

[Draken]

Really? they shouldn't

Challenge rating is supposed to be based on the creature's ability to stand toe to toe with a four person PC group. As such I would expect an npc with class levels to have a CR somewhere around 1/4th of its class level, unless some other factor boosts or takes away from its combat effectiveness.

Probably closer to 2/3rd of their level if you are going with full class features and HD.

[Person_Man]

I've been DMing for decades. My advice is that you and your friend should not worry about rules/guidelines for monsters, NPCs, etc. They currently don't exist, and have never been particularly good in any edition of D&D. (With the possible exception of 4E, where they did help you create very balanced encounters. Though the always balanced grindy combat of 4E was one of the things I disliked about that edition).

Instead, simply add in whatever abilities or spells or whatever to your monsters and NPCs that you think would make the game more interesting, then come up with some sort of fluffy rationale for it if necessary. If you want the Kobold leader to breath fire, just do it. Don't worry about the NPCs class or build.

If you're going to spend time preparing, it is best spent on creating an interesting campaign world filled with fun adventure locations, memorable characters, and exciting encounters, and not on figuring out the correct statistics for things that might see 5 minutes of actual gameplay.

[odigity]

Instead, simply add in whatever abilities or spells or whatever to your monsters and NPCs that you think would make the game more interesting, then come up with some sort of fluffy rationale for it if necessary. If you want the Kobold leader to breath fire, just do it. Don't worry about the NPCs class or build.

If you're going to spend time preparing, it is best spent on creating an interesting campaign world filled with fun adventure locations, memorable characters, and exciting encounters, and not on figuring out the correct statistics for things that might see 5 minutes of actual gameplay.

I agree in general -- rules are training wheels. However, this is our first time running 5e, the players are 1st lvl, and I'd rather start by following the carefully balanced rules/guidelines published by WotC until we're more experienced. Rules are meant to be broken by those who know what they're doing -- we do not, yet. The main DM already almost TPKed us in our first encounter (in a surprise round, nonetheless, before a single one of us could even act).

[Daishain]

Probably closer to 2/3rd of their level if you are going with full class features and HD.

Can you build a PC that, at sixth level, would not face an outright beatdown at the hands of four fourth level PCs? Assume a reasonable level of competence in the opposition, and that you can't rely on the opposition's build having specific weaknesses, such as no one having darkvision.

[odigity]

Can you build a PC that, at sixth level, would not face an outright beatdown at the hands of four fourth level PCs? Assume a reasonable level of competence in the opposition, and that you can't rely on the opposition's build having specific weaknesses, such as no one having darkvision.

Fly is a level 3 spell and lasts 10m (con). Fireball has a range of 150'. Other spells can have longer range, especially with Spellsniper feat or Edritch Spear invocation, the first of which also negates most cover.

If the DM wants to be a ****, yes, you can make a 6th lvl char that can really mess up a 4th lvl party. And that example wasn't even remotely creative, just the most obvious solution.

[Draken]

Can you build a PC that, at sixth level, would not face an outright beatdown at the hands of four fourth level PCs? Assume a reasonable level of competence in the opposition, and that you can't rely on the opposition's build having specific weaknesses, such as no one having darkvision.

That depends on the class, I will admit!

If you make, say, a (melee) fighter or monk, then you should probably CR it at 1/3, because melee and single target lower the NPC's field options. Spellcasters go by the 2/3s because they can deal a lot of area damage that will consume a lot of resources!

Mind you, this is from ogling the NPCs in the monster manual. the Mage is a level 9 CR 6, the Archmage is a level 18 CR 12, the Knight is a level 8 CR 3, the priest is a level 5 CR 2, the veteran is a level 9 CR 3 and lastly the assassin is a level 12 CR 8.

Differences between all these "monsters"?

Mage & Archmage (2/3) - Heavy damage potential in an area! Tricks up the wazoo.
Assassin (2/3) - Brutal damage potential against a single target, ambusher.
Priest (1/2~) - Low damage, some decent utlity. Kind of a wimp solo, but a good support creature.
Knight (1/3~) - Good AC, respectable saves, decent damage. An ability that is only useful with allies, so this is not meant as a solo monster.
Veteran (1/3) - Higher damage potential than the knight (not much higher, but higher), no tricks.

Should also note that all of them use the standard HD size for medium creatures, that is, a d8 and have no feats (although the veteran has some benefits of two-weapon fighting).

There is some stuff a class gives that wouldn't exactly affect the NPC's combat abilities, but overall, NPC CR is a matter of how big a drain the creature will pose. So spellcasters get bigger CRs for dealing more widespread damage and rogues gets higher CRs for the chance at flat out murdering someone.

[MaxWilson]

Can you build a PC that, at sixth level, would not face an outright beatdown at the hands of four fourth level PCs? Assume a reasonable level of competence in the opposition, and that you can't rely on the opposition's build having specific weaknesses, such as no one having darkvision.

One key is to make a 6th level PC that can control the pace of combat. For example, a highly mobile 6th level PC with long-range attacks that can pop up, murder the archer to death with Sharpshooter and twice as many attacks per round, and then pop back out and come back for another one later on.

AoE attacks are good in a different way in that they scale with number of opponents.

For this reason, a 6th level variant human Fiendlock with Fireball, Expeditious Retreat memorized and Alert + Spell Sniper feats, with Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear is the guy I'd put my money on.

[Person_Man]

The main DM already almost TPKed us in our first encounter (in a surprise round, nonetheless, before a single one of us could even act).

That's hilarious. "I really appreciate the hours each of you spent creating your characters everyone. OK, you are standing in the middle of town when you get ambushed by the local thieve's guild. You are killed. Thanks for playing."

Also, if you're not particularly experienced, I suggest starting at level 5. The first 3ish levels are explicitly designed to capture the feel of old school D&D where its really easy to kill PCs. No amount of forethought or planning on your part is going to prevent a random goblin from rolling a critical hit and killing a 1st level PC. You'd either have to fudge the dice, or not have any combat encounters.

[Daishain]

Fly is a level 3 spell and lasts 10m (con). Fireball has a range of 150'. Other spells can have longer range, especially with Spellsniper feat or Edritch Spear invocation, the first of which also negates most cover.

If the DM wants to be a ****, yes, you can make a 6th lvl char that can really mess up a 4th lvl party. And that example wasn't even remotely creative, just the most obvious solution.
In this edition, PCs flying via the spell are just skeet to shoot down. Odds are pretty good that half to three quarters of the party can hit out to at least 150', even if they have to take disadvantage on the roll to make the attempt. They don't even have to do significant damage, how many consecutive saving throws can you expect to pass to avoid falling to your death?

[MaxWilson]

In this edition, PCs flying via the spell are just skeet to shoot down. Odds are pretty good that half to three quarters of the party can hit out to at least 150', even if they have to take disadvantage on the roll to make the attempt. They don't even have to do significant damage, how many consecutive saving throws can you expect to pass to avoid falling to your death?

Note that Levitate is not vulnerable to this counter-tactic, because it includes a built-in Feather Fall when the spell ends.

[Daishain]

Note that Levitate is not vulnerable to this counter-tactic, because it includes a built-in Feather Fall when the spell ends.

Yes it is, the battle takes longer due to the ground not finishing the caster off for the party, but the caster is also much much closer to the ground and therefore easy to gank. Hit him with the short range spells your caster would probably use in a normal fight , then beat his face in when he floats down. If he wants to spend his action casting levitate again let him, you just repeat the combo next round.

[MaxWilson]

Yes it is, the battle takes longer due to the ground not finishing the caster off for the party, but the caster is also much much closer to the ground and therefore easy to gank. Hit him with the short range spells your caster would probably use in a normal fight , then beat his face in when he floats down. If he wants to spend his action casting levitate again let him, you just repeat the combo next round.

I would call that a different counter-tactic than "break his concentration and watch him fall to his death".

I don't think Levitate is restricted in maximum height BTW, why do you assume he will necessarily be closer to the ground? You could e.g. Levitate + Dimension Door.

[Daishain]

I would call that a different counter-tactic than "break his concentration and watch him fall to his death".

I don't think Levitate is restricted in maximum height BTW, why do you assume he will necessarily be closer to the ground? You could e.g. Levitate + Dimension Door.
You're right, he could be further up, I didn't think of that. However, it would be a dumb move to try.

At the end of his first turn, caster is max 20' off the ground. Easy to hit and bring down.

beginning of caster's 2nd turn, if the party failed to interrupt his concentration last time, caster can either move up another 20' and attack the party, or spend his action moving even further.

end of caster's 2nd turn, caster is either on the ground, 40' up and easy to hit, or very high up but having spent two turns doing nothing but getting there (and almost certainly is still in danger of being brought down and all his efforts wasted). None of those are good positions to be in.

[MaxWilson]

You're right, he could be further up, I didn't think of that. However, it would be a dumb move to try.

At the end of his first turn, caster is max 20' off the ground. Easy to hit and bring down.

beginning of caster's 2nd turn, if the party failed to interrupt his concentration last time, caster can either move up another 20' and attack the party, or spend his action moving even further.

end of caster's 2nd turn, caster is either on the ground, 40' up and easy to hit, or very high up but having spent two turns doing nothing but getting there (and almost certainly is still in danger of being brought down and all his efforts wasted). None of those are good positions to be in.

I would say that being 400' feet up with Levitate and a 600' range is a pretty sweet position for an enemy caster to be in. They can hit you with long bows, but that's about it--no spells without special feat support, and even if they break your concentration it will take you many, many rounds to slowly drift to the ground, giving you plenty of time to recast Levitate if you choose. The party can take cover, they won't necessarily get wiped out, but you're in very little danger of being wiped out by them and you will do significant damage, which is pretty much what this thread was asking for. (A 6th level NPC who won't be brutally murdered by 4 4th level characters.)

[Daishain]

I would say that being 400' feet up with Levitate and a 600' range is a pretty sweet position for an enemy caster to be in. They can hit you with long bows, but that's about it--no spells without special feat support, and even if they break your concentration it will take you many, many rounds to slowly drift to the ground, giving you plenty of time to recast Levitate if you choose. The party can take cover, they won't necessarily get wiped out, but you're in very little danger of being wiped out by them and you will do significant damage, which is pretty much what this thread was asking for. (A 6th level NPC who won't be brutally murdered by 4 4th level characters.)
-Levitate doesn't say how long it takes you to drift down, and it implies one round.
-No offensive spell available to 6th level spellcasters has a range of 600', even with spell sniper. Best you can manage is 300' with spell sniper, within shortbow range. They're also all third level spells, so you get three such attacks, that's it. Following that, if you have firebolt and spell sniper, you could descend to 240' and spam that, but then the party is easily outdamaging you.
-If the party honestly can't touch the caster, all they have to do is get in full cover or walk away for a bit, no point in getting annoyed to death from on high. The caster can't follow without dropping down and repeating the whole drama of trying to get into the air while being hit multiple times in a row.

Also, frankly, if you have to resort to tactics that people were calling cheating when employed against the bloody Tarrasque, and still have a good chance of losing, I think my point has been made.

(note: assuming a wizard or sorcerer here, other classes don't have levitate, at least not by level 6)

EDIT: Oh right, and dimension door is a 4th level spell anyways, so your combo isn't even available.

[MaxWilson]

-No offensive spell available to 6th level spellcasters has a range of 600', even with spell sniper.

This is true, but I didn't realize we were still discussing 6th level casters, I thought we were just discussing the merits of Levitate vs. Fly in general. Otherwise you could have just objected earlier when I mentioned Dimension Door, since obviously a 6th level caster can't cast it.

[Daishain]

This is true, but I didn't realize we were still discussing 6th level casters, I thought we were just discussing the merits of Levitate vs. Fly in general. Otherwise you could have just objected earlier when I mentioned Dimension Door, since obviously a 6th level caster can't cast it.
This line of thought did begin with me asking about a 6th level PC vs 4th level party of PCs.

and yeah, the spell level of dimension door slipped my mind, I just assumed the spell level was valid and moved on.

[MaxWilson]

This line of thought did begin with me asking about a 6th level PC vs 4th level party of PCs.

and yeah, the spell level of dimension door slipped my mind, I just assumed the spell level was valid and moved on.

Sorry, I should have been more explicit when I slipped in my BTW about Levitate not being vulnerable to falling damage. It was a tangent, meant as an interesting FYI for those who like flying but fear falling. When it comes to killing off 4th level PCs I think there are better ways to do it than Levitate.

[odigity]

-No offensive spell available to 6th level spellcasters has a range of 600', even with spell sniper.

Eldrtich Blast + Eldritch Spear + Spell Sniper, both available by level 2.

[Daishain]

Eldrtich Blast + Eldritch Spear + Spell Sniper, both available by level 2.
I was referring to spells available to classes that had levitate.(sorcerer+wizard) Warlocks can get it as an at will invocation, but it doesn't become available till level 9.

Come to think of it though, you could do a warlock2/wizard4 to take advantage of that. But you would still have difficulties getting high enough in altitude for it to matter, would have sacrificed spell power to do so, and would probably fail the designedasrealisticcharacter vs designedsoleleytokilltheparty test

[MaxWilson]

I was referring to spells available to classes that had levitate.(sorcerer+wizard) Warlocks can get it as an at will invocation, but it doesn't become available till level 9.

Come to think of it though, you could do a warlock2/wizard4 to take advantage of that. But you would still have difficulties getting high enough in altitude for it to matter, would have sacrificed spell power to do so, and would probably fail the designedasrealisticcharacter vs designedsoleleytokilltheparty test

Agreed about altitude (expeditious retreat is better in this scenario) but this isn't an unrealistic build at all. It's a fairly optimal build for necromancers, only question is whether to take Eldritch Spear or Repelling Blast. But it's not customized for the party at all.

I didn't see any discussion above of the warlock build I submitted; the warlock would be better at killing this particular party but the warlock 2 / wizard 4 is just two levels shy of becoming MUCH more fun to play, so it's actually a better long-term build.

[odigity]

I was referring to spells available to classes that had levitate.(sorcerer+wizard) Warlocks can get it as an at will invocation, but it doesn't become available till level 9.

Come to think of it though, you could do a warlock2/wizard4 to take advantage of that. But you would still have difficulties getting high enough in altitude for it to matter, would have sacrificed spell power to do so, and would probably fail the designedasrealisticcharacter vs designedsoleleytokilltheparty test

You want realistic? The multiclassing for levitate feels wrong? Ok?

Pure Warlock, level 5 (for the 3rd invocation), add Devil's Sight invocation and Darkness spell. You don't need to be in the air to ruin a party's day. You can even do it at level 3 if you drop Agonizing Blast and just accept 1d10 EBs instead of 2d10+6, but I think lvl 5 is when he really shines, and the challenge was to do it in <= 6 levels.

Warlock is like a bowl of candy.

[Daishain]

You want realistic? The multiclassing for levitate feels wrong? Ok?

Pure Warlock, level 5 (for the 3rd invocation), add Devil's Sight invocation and Darkness spell. You don't need to be in the air to ruin a party's day. You can even do it at level 3 if you drop Agonizing Blast and just accept 1d10 EBs instead of 2d10+6, but I think lvl 5 is when he really shines, and the challenge was to do it in <= 6 levels.

Warlock is like a bowl of candy.
Have you forgotten that the majority of the PC races in this edition have darkvision? Only the halfling, human, and dragonborn lack the ability to see right through the darkness spell.

That combination is only partially effective against a reasonably balanced group. Especially if the party has a means to get you out of the darkness. (Such as the dwarven fighter or half-elf paladin with athletics skill proficiency using grapple to drag the warlock along.)

[fishyfishyfishy]

Have you forgotten that the majority of the PC races in this edition have darkvision? Only the halfling, human, and dragonborn lack the ability to see right through the darkness spell.

That combination is only partially effective against a reasonably balanced group. Especially if the party has a means to get you out of the darkness. (Such as the dwarven fighter or half-elf paladin with athletics skill proficiency using grapple to drag the warlock along.)

Darkness explicitly states that darkvision and non magical light sources fail to pierce through it. That's why this is such a highly touted tactic on these boards.

[MaxWilson]

Have you forgotten that the majority of the PC races in this edition have darkvision? Only the halfling, human, and dragonborn lack the ability to see right through the darkness spell.

That combination is only partially effective against a reasonably balanced group. Especially if the party has a means to get you out of the darkness. (Such as the dwarven fighter or half-elf paladin with athletics skill proficiency using grapple to drag the warlock along.)

In addition to what fishyfishyfishy already pointed out about darkvision not working, you can't grapple him out of the darkness because he's going to have the Darkness spell cast on something he is wearing, like his own armor.

[Daishain]

Darkness explicitly states that darkvision and non magical light sources fail to pierce through it. That's why this is such a highly touted tactic on these boards.
Hmm, missed that detail, and darkvision no longer has the "except for magical darkness" clause.

Still, plenty of low level sources of magical illumination, dancing lights cantrip and faerie fire to name two.


In addition to what fishyfishyfishy already pointed out about darkvision not working, you can't grapple him out of the darkness because he's going to have the Darkness spell cast on something he is wearing, like his own armor.Yes, actually, you can. Just bring a blanket along. Covering the source of the darkness works just as well as covering a source of light.

[MaxWilson]

Casting Dancing Lights is a good way to waste an action in this scenario.

Darkness spell description:

"...a creature with darkvision can't see through this darkness... If the point you choose is on an object you are holding or one that isn't being worn or carried, the darkness emanates from the object and moves with it... If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level of lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled."


Yes, actually, you can. Just bring a blanket along. Covering the source of the darkness works just as well as covering a source of light.

How is that a "Yes, actually you can grapple him out of the darkness"? Also, good luck figuring out which object the darkness is emanating from when you can't see any of them anyway and the warlock is busy killing you.

[Daishain]

How is that a "Yes, actually you can grapple him out of the darkness"? Also, good luck figuring out which object the darkness is emanating from when you can't see any of them anyway and the warlock is busy killing you.
Who would bother trying to identify a specific object when you can just wrap up the warlock?

Regardless, I'll concede the point. There doesn't appear to be a likely counter, at least not before level three spells come online. The warlock in question would indeed be a pain in the arse to fight.

[Giant2005]

Helping a friend put together a 5e adventure for the first time, and stuck on a few questions:

1) Are there any rules/guidelines yet for modifying existing monsters? (I know it's coming in the DMG, but we can't wait.) For example, if I wanted to work up some stats for the leader of the Kobold tribe, or one of his henchman.

2) Are there any rules/guidelines for determining how much XP and NPC is worth? For example, if I create a 3rd lvl Rogue Assassin as an enemy NPC, and the PCs defeat him/her, how much XP should that be?

Just take the stats of some other, higher CR critter (Obviously something like a Bugbear would be more suitable than something like a Beholder) and give it the disposition and appearance of a Kobold and call it a day.

[odigity]

Regardless, I'll concede the point. There doesn't appear to be a likely counter, at least not before level three spells come online. The warlock in question would indeed be a pain in the arse to fight.

I agree it's a pain in the ass, which is part of why both of my two first 5e chars are dipping Warlock. :)

Having said that, if I had to play against it, I think the simplest/best strategy is to start firing AoE spells at the center of the sphere of Darkness. You're doing damage and causing concentration saves at the same time (Darkness is a concentration spell), so it's win/win with every Fireball. I believe you can even make normal ranged attacks, like bows and cantrips, just at disadvantage. You should be able to determine the center of a sphere reasonably well, after all.

[Daishain]

I agree it's a pain in the ass, which is part of why both of my two first 5e chars are dipping Warlock. :)

Having said that, if I had to play against it, I think the simplest/best strategy is to start firing AoE spells at the center of the sphere of Darkness. You're doing damage and causing concentration saves at the same time (Darkness is a concentration spell), so it's win/win with every Fireball. I believe you can even make normal ranged attacks, like bows and cantrips, just at disadvantage. You should be able to determine the center of a sphere reasonably well, after all.
Oh its possible and in fact probable to win the fight with some coordination, it just wouldn't be the easy beatdown I was describing.

[MaxWilson]

Having said that, if I had to play against it, I think the simplest/best strategy is to start firing AoE spells at the center of the sphere of Darkness. You're doing damage and causing concentration saves at the same time (Darkness is a concentration spell), so it's win/win with every Fireball. I believe you can even make normal ranged attacks, like bows and cantrips, just at disadvantage. You should be able to determine the center of a sphere reasonably well, after all.

That's why I prefer the long-ranged approach instead--that way you're not relying on mere disadvantage to protect you (which doesn't even work all that well without high AC). If you're attacking the archer from 600' away with Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear, the only ones who can reply effectively at all are either 1.) another warlock with a similar build, 2.) anybody with a longbow, especially those with Sharpshooter. Admittedly, Sharpshooter should be present in a competent party, but 1.) you have twice as many attacks as he does (partially balanced out by your worse AC, which lets him do his +10 damage combo on you), 2.) you have Repelling Blast which can potentially push him out of range to reply.

The reset of the party should immediately seek out total cover or at least drop prone. I think the party could probably win this (Cleric casts Bless on the Sharpshooter, Bard uses Inspiration, wizard uses Minor Illusion to create fake cover, etc.) but I've noticed that typical parties described by those on this forum aren't build to win these kinds of engagements, so in some cases the Warlock may dominate after all. In any case, it's certainly a worthy and memorable challenge for these 4th level PCs, which was the original question IIRC.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

honestly, the only reason to have a 600' away attacker is to give a long range PC a chance to shine in their specialty.

[MaxWilson]

honestly, the only reason to have a 600' away attacker is to give a long range PC a chance to shine in their specialty.

Or because longbows are bog-standard equipment on hobgoblins and rangers, and common for any martial class. And if you don't have a ranged option you are planning for failure.

600' is the default range for outdoor engagements, and that's only because you have to wait until the enemy is in range before you can engage. You can frequently identify the enemy by their body type, uniform, or banners/weaponry before they even get within a quarter of a mile. "Oh look, we're in orc country and a bunch of large burly creatures with sunlight glinting off their weaponry are moving toward us. Should we engage now or wait until they are 30' away?"