5 attacks at level 1 in PF as a skinwalker - what direction to go from there?

[Kraken]

I've been looking at skinwalkers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp), and for many of them, if you take extra feature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-feature) as your first feat, you can get 3 natural attacks. Ragebred skinwalkers get 2 hooves and a gore, for instance. Throw in the mother's teeth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/mother-s-teeth) trait (Lamashtu is a pretty good deity for skinwalkers to worship, thematically) for a bite attack at the cost of a trait, bringing you up to 4 natural attacks. If you attack with a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike as a monk), that's 5 attacks. And this is all completely independent of your class choice. What directions are possible form here? Off the top of my head, ranger2 and barbarian2 could add a pair of claws, possibly at the expense of a natural weapon. Or you could flurry with a ton of secondary naturals. Or TWF with a ton of secondary naturals. And then there's the synthesist...let's just leave that one out. :smallbiggrin:

[Elricaltovilla]

Well, there's a few downsides to natural attacks: Low base damage, difficulty overcoming DR and bad BAB. Taking claws is probably not a good idea unless you have some way to really boost all your natural attacks, typically through Sneak Attack dice or other precision damage.

Since you have 5 natural attacks, you qualify for Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-feats#TOC-Multiattack-Combat-), although its technically a monster feat. If I were you, I'd grab that and a big two handed weapon to make my full attacks with.

If you want to go for more natural attacks, barbarians can do a good job, they even get pounce. Another great choice is Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist, with their mutagens giving lots of useful abilities (again, pounce), better stats, and extra natural attacks from Beastmorph, while Vivisectionist will give you Sneak Attack dice to overcome your low damage issues. Alchemist extracts are great for this as well since you can turn invisible to catch enemies flat footed.

[avr]

Druids which animal shaman archetypes can get extra natural attacks at level 2 and buff themselves nicely. The fluff could be difficult for a werepig becoming a lion shaman though.

Lunar oracles can get another natural attack at level 1, though with limited uses. The fluff is perfect this time.

Several sorcerer bloodlines get claws and a witch can get prehensile hair, but you have to really work to overcome the difficulty all of these have with melee. It can be done but it's not simple.

But you know what's a perfect match in fluff and mechanics? Abyssal bloodrager. Claws at level 1 and plenty of melee boosts, the CN alignment isn't far off a demons' and oh the rage.

[Psyren]

Don't use the manufactured weapon at level 1. Adding that in will shift all your natural attacks to secondary, which slaps -5 on all of them and lowers the damage to half Str. If you stick with all-natural, the claws, bite and gore will stay primary and all will get full BAB/Str, meaning you won't need Multiattack at all.

Hooves will be secondary either way.

[The Grue]

Rather than blowing a trait on a bite attack, roll an Alchemist and pick up Feral Mutagen (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/feral-mutagen) as your first discovery. That brings you to, what, two claws, two hooves, a bite and a gore?

Arcane Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/arcane-strike-combat) helps mitigate the DR issue at least until you can start augmenting your natural weapons with gear and/or extracts(whether Alchemists qualify as being "able to cast arcane spells" is a muddy issue, but a Ragebred's speak with animals SLA certainly does qualify (http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook#v5748eaic9qow) for the feat). Taking the Beastmorph archetype gets you some useful secondary abilities out of your mutagens, too.

[grarrrg]

Don't use the manufactured weapon at level 1. Adding that in will shift all your natural attacks to secondary, which slaps -5 on all of them and lowers the damage to half Str. If you stick with all-natural, the claws, bite and gore will stay primary and all will get full BAB/Str, meaning you won't need Multiattack at all.

Just popping in to say ^This^

[Kraken]

Bloodrager is seeming like the most intriguing option to me at the moment. I'm conflicted, though. Claws at level 1 via abyssal bloodline would be awesome. On the other hand, aberrant bloodline grants reach at level 4. What other ways would there be (without multiclassing) to get claws on an aberrant bloodrager or reach with natural weapons on an abyssal one? Completely new suggestions are also fine, just so I can file them away in my head for the future.

[The Grue]

Bloodrager is seeming like the most intriguing option to me at the moment. I'm conflicted, though. Claws at level 1 via abyssal bloodline would be awesome. On the other hand, aberrant bloodline grants reach at level 4. What other ways would there be (without multiclassing) to get claws on an aberrant bloodrager or reach with natural weapons on an abyssal one? Completely new suggestions are also fine, just so I can file them away in my head for the future.

Crossblooded Rager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/archetypes/paizo---bloodrager-archetypes/crossblooded-rager). Take Abyssal's claws as your first-level bloodline power, Aberrant's reach as your 4th.

[Kraken]

Whoa. Done. My will saves were already going to be terrible. Edit: wait, is that incompatible with primalist?

[Bluydee]

No. Primalist gives you the option to trade away bloodline features for rage powers, while Crossblooded allows you to get bloodline features of either bloodline.

[Kraken]

Rats. I'll probably just roll with Abyssal only then, being large isn't that much worse than medium with 10' reach.

[grarrrg]

What other ways would there be (without multiclassing) to get claws on an aberrant bloodrager or reach with natural weapons on an abyssal one?

Without Multiclassing? Not a whole lot.
Crossblooded has been mentioned, and is the easiest, although dumping your Will Save is not ideal.

Gaining Claws without multiclassing is purely dependent on Race, and/or getting someone to cast the right spell on you.

Reach can be mostly faked with the Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final) Feat


If some multiclassing is open, then 2 levels of Ranger to grab Aspect of the Beast for Clawsx2 is the best option.
1 level of Living Monolith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/living-monolith) can get you 3/day Swift Action Enlarge Person, which eliminates the need for someone else to buff you (and Swift means you don't waste precious Standard/Full actions).

[avr]

Actually, it's really easy for a bloodrager to get reach. People seem to forget they get spells too, and both Enlarge Person & Long Arm are first level spells on their list.

[Kraken]

Right, but more reach is better. The long limbs from the aberrant bloodline and lunge are nonmagical, and thus stack with each other, along with any magical source. The size increase from the abyssal bloodline is magical, unfortunately.

[grarrrg]

Actually, it's really easy for a bloodrager to get reach. People seem to forget they get spells too, and both Enlarge Person & Long Arm are first level spells on their list.

Easy yes, but you still need to 'waste' a Standard action to cast the spells first.
Having a Faster-than-Standard-Action way to get Reach is quite useful.

Eventually you'd get Greater Bloodrage and could 'free cast' any low level spell on yourself. Or you could chip in for a Rod of Quicken and either buff yourself, or sweet talk a party member into buffing you.


Right, but more reach is better. The long limbs from the aberrant bloodline and lunge are nonmagical, and thus stack with each other, along with any magical source. The size increase from the abyssal bloodline is magical, unfortunately.

Half right, all of those (except Lunge) are (Su) > Supernatural Abilities and are thus Magical.
Enlarge Person specifically "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack", so only 1 size increase.
BUT Long Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/long-arm) has no such restriction. And none of the '+reach' things are "size increasing" so they all stack with Enlarge Person as well.
So you can Enlarge>Long Limb>Long Arm>Lunge for potentially +20ft. reach.

[Kraken]

Huh. Long arm isn't a 'size increase' anyway, so I don't see any reason it would conflict with enlarge person, and aberrant bloodline and lunge are both EX sources. Nice. Still probably not worth trying to fit them all in though, diminishing returns probably set in at 15' reach or so.

Edit: okay, so we're at 6 attacks at level 1 via a bloodrager with the aberrant bloodline: 2 primary claws, a primary gore, a secondary bite, and 2 secondary hooves, requiring a ragebred skinwalker as your race, extra feature as your first level feat, and the mother's teeth trait. While your ability to play skinwalkers in PFS is limited, the entire setup is, oddly enough, PFS legal.

[grarrrg]

and aberrant bloodline and lunge are both EX sources.

:smallconfused:
I don't have the book, but both the d20pfsrd, and the Archives of Nethys list Abberant>Reach as a (Su).

[Kraken]

Ah, I was looking at the sorcerer aberrant bloodline, which, strangely, does grant EX reach.

[grarrrg]

Ah, I was looking at the sorcerer aberrant bloodline, which, strangely, does grant EX reach.

Eh, not entirely strange.
Sorcerer Bloodline stuff is "always" on, whereas a Bloodrager Bloodline is (usually) only on when they are Bloodraging.
So it at least makes sense for the Sorcerer's to be EX. And it looks like they made practically ALL Bloodrage stuff SU, which makes sense for the more magical-y abilities.