I know it's not Monday, but...

[WeaselGuy]

So, I was looking up some stuff for a new player in my group, and as one of the OpFu Guru's, he asked me to make him a kick@$$ monk. About the best I could figure out for him (based on having played an epic monk for my first ever campaign, and surfing these forums for the past year) would be to keep the amount of monk to a minimum, and augment it with swordsage, then roll into shadow sun ninja. With 5 levels left, I look at other initiator PrCs, and thought Bloodclaw Master might dovetail nicely. The stub, therefore, looks something like the following...

Monk 21/Swordsage 34/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Bloodclaw Master 5.

Now, what feats should I look at for him? I know I need IUA from Monk 2 get IUA from Monk 1, and need the TWF tree for BcM, but other than that, what should I look at? I was thinking about DWing Kamas, just cause they look awesome, even though I know my fists will do more damage.

We play with assigned stat values of 12, 13, 14, 14, 16, 18, allocated as we want, plus racial modifiers. He really likes the Lesser Tiefling, with their +2 Dex, +2 Int and -2 Cha, so it can be set up to get 18 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 16 Wis and 11 Cha.

Our available books are any hardcover 3.5 books, including Dragon Compendium and setting specific books. 3.0 is allowed, so long as there isn't a 3.5 update.

edits: actually reading the monk class helps out >.>

[Flickerdart]

Since he's a new player, you can probably get away with no monk at all. Conversely, if he's already managed to internalize the "class name = job title" mentality, you can get away with as many as 6 levels of monk before it really becomes useless.

Ask him what he actually expects the monk to do, first - there are a lot of ways to make a really neat unarmed brawler without the complexity of psionics or initiating subsystems. Azurin Factotum 3/Monk 2/Cloistered Cleric 1 is a fun base for an unarmed tripping build - Decisive Strike, Knockdown, Cobalt Expertise, Brains over Brawn, and Carmendine Monk come together to build a solid threat that lets the newbie dip his feet into non-full attack combat options without having to scan a list every time his turn comes up.

Also, don't forget that Scorpion Kamas transfer unarmed strike damage to the weapon.

[atemu1234]

Or he could go with an Elder Phaethon Monk. Still not optimal, but most definitely (with the ACFs) more powerful than normal.

[WeaselGuy]

Since he's a new player, you can probably get away with no monk at all. Conversely, if he's already managed to internalize the "class name = job title" mentality, you can get away with as many as 6 levels of monk before it really becomes useless.

Ask him what he actually expects the monk to do, first - there are a lot of ways to make a really neat unarmed brawler without the complexity of psionics or initiating subsystems. Azurin Factotum 3/Monk 2/Cloistered Cleric 1 is a fun base for an unarmed tripping build - Decisive Strike, Knockdown, Cobalt Expertise, Brains over Brawn, and Carmendine Monk come together to build a solid threat that lets the newbie dip his feet into non-full attack combat options without having to scan a list every time his turn comes up.

Also, don't forget that Scorpion Kamas transfer unarmed strike damage to the weapon.

Thanks for the response Flickerdart... I guess I should have clarified, when I said he's a new player, I just meant that he's new to our group, he has a bit of experience playing in 3.5, and had played a monk before, he just wants to do it better this time around, to keep up with the rest of the group's level of optimization (which I would classify as mid-to-high). He looked over the Shadow Sun Ninja, and really likes how it looks, he just wants a bit of help picking maneuvers and feats. It seems like Adaptive Style is a must, so I think he'll probably have to go Swordsage 4/Monk 1, instead of the other way around...

[The Insaniac]

Or you could just use the unarmed swordsage variant.

[WeaselGuy]

Or he could go with an Elder Phaethon Monk. Still not optimal, but most definitely (with the ACFs) more powerful than normal.

What's that, where's it at, and what's it do?

[Red Fel]

Thanks for the response Flickerdart... I guess I should have clarified, when I said he's a new player, I just meant that he's new to our group, he has a bit of experience playing in 3.5, and had played a monk before, he just wants to do it better this time around, to keep up with the rest of the group's level of optimization (which I would classify as mid-to-high). He looked over the Shadow Sun Ninja, and really likes how it looks, he just wants a bit of help picking maneuvers and feats. It seems like Adaptive Style is a must, so I think he'll probably have to go Swordsage 4/Monk 1, instead of the other way around...

Echoing what Flickerdart said: Why Monk at all? Unless you dislike ToB, Swordsage is generally seen as "Monk 2.0" - particularly the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation (mentioned by Insaniac) which doesn't get you Flurry, but does get you IUS and unarmed progression, and keeps Wis to AC. Frankly, taking Monk and Swordsage just feels redundant, and unnecessary.

[WeaselGuy]

Echoing what Flickerdart said: Why Monk at all? Unless you dislike ToB, Swordsage is generally seen as "Monk 2.0" - particularly the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation (mentioned by Insaniac) which doesn't get you Flurry, but does get you IUS and unarmed progression, and keeps Wis to AC. Frankly, taking Monk and Swordsage just feels redundant, and unnecessary.

That's a very good point, and I think I'll nudge him in that direction, I had forgotten about the Unarmed Variant.

[Troacctid]

Conversely, if he's already managed to internalize the "class name = job title" mentality, you can get away with as many as 6 levels of monk before it really becomes useless.

More like 7. That Dark Moon Disciple substitution level is great, especially on a Tiefling. It basically makes you permanently invisible as long as you're not in direct sunlight. Great combo with evasion, Darkstalker, and the racial Darkness spell-like ability.

[WeaselGuy]

I pushed the info out to my guy, he is very much in favor of:


Str 18
Dex 16 (+2 Racial, +4 leveling) 22
Con 14
Int 12 (+2 Racial) 14
Wis 16
Cha 13 (-2 Racial, +1 leveling) 12

Adaptive Style
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Weapon Finesse
Knock-Down

Balance 8
Climb 8
Escape Artist 18
Hide 23
Jump 18
Martial Lore 23
Move Silently 23
Tumble 23

[Extra Anchovies]

The best monk is a Tashalatora Psychic Warrior with Beast Strike.