Has any other DM had to "Dream Sequence" to save a player at campaign start?

[thematgreen]

I was sitting here thinking about the new campaign I am joining in a week and remembered an event I, and the group found funny.

The event:

The group (level 5) is at a crossroads... behind them a batillion of 20 Death Knights is heading their way, ahead of them on the road towards the town is a vary large black dragon. The other path is towards the river where a good sized, unattended, river raft can be seen. The river looks smooth but rapid and there will be plenty of room for the whole group, including gear and mounts. I wanted to get this herd of kittens towards the heart of the story area since they had just spent 5 minutes bickering with eachother over whether the holly bushes on the side of the road had thorns or not.

The group discusses quickly taking the raft, leaving a bag of money in case someone owned it, and using it to escape the area. They start heading there...well, everyone except the Wizard of the group.

Wizard: I cast message at the dragon to get it's attention. (Homebrew rule, Message spell has infinite range as long as you can see and there is a direct line with nothing between you and the target)

Me: ...whuuut....

Him: I want him to be our ally so I am going to call him to fight the Death Knights

Me: You DO know that both the Death Knights and the Dragon are evil, right?

Him: Yeah, but maybe they aren't on the same side.

Me: As the DM I am going to allow you to do this...but I strongly reccommend against it.

Him: No, it's going to work, watch.

Me: You DO understand that I am in control of the NPC's, right? I know what is going to happen.

Him: Just watch

Me: ...

The rest of the group, who had been silent up to this point suddenly all say, in different ways, that they are running to the raft at full speed, abandoning the Wizard.

Me: Okay, you are there, alone, about to call to a Black Dragon, a creature known to be evil, and you are going to try and somehow tempt this evil monster to battle other evil monsters, not knowing if they are allied or not.... is this correct?

Him: Yeah, but the dragon won't want the Death Knights in his territory so I can pretend to be helping him.

Me: ...I...you go ahead and do your thing.

The Wizard sends his message to the dragon, who hears it and starts winging towards him. The Death Knights approach...each is garbed in a tabard with the image of a black dragon on it. The Wizard suddenly says something like:

Him: Dragon! I command you to slay the invaders in your territory! I will use my magic to assist you and then we may discuss an alliance. I have 200 gold pieces to give to you to pay for your services.

Him: *rolls his dice for diplomacy, gets a total of 7*

The dragon orders his Death Knights to attack and I give the Wizard first attack, since the Knights and the Dragon are shocked at his stupidity and are unsure if maybe he is a god of some sort and not just cataclysmically stupid.

Him: I cast Mage Armor

Me: Why? What could that possibly do? You know what? Sure, what's your AC now?

Me: *Not even bothering to roll my dice* You are instantly chopped to pieces and then melted by the breath of the black dragon.

Him: Wait, but they were in the dragons territory, and dragons are territorial, why would he team up with the Death Knights.

Me: ...I'm going to the restroom, I'll be back.

I listen to the group explain his stupid, point out the black dragons on the tabard that he saw, point out the flaws with his plan and offer to help him roll a new character. As I come back I hear one player go "If the DM is asking you over and over if you are sure you want to do something you don't do it!"

So I come back, the Wizard is looking so dejected that I say:

Me: Suddenly you wake up, you head ringing in agony. You realize that you had fallen off your horse and smacked your head against a rock and were knocked out. Your group kindly carried you to the barge. While you were out you had a vivid dream where you lost all common sense and died...you decide to take this as a lesson and continue on with the group.

Anyway, it was just an amusing story I remembered and decided to share. I hope you enjoyed it.

[Red Fel]

Anyway, it was just an amusing story I remembered and decided to share. I hope you enjoyed it.

I'm trying to come up with a way to say "cool story, bro," and sound sincere, because that actually was an amusing story of player stupidity. Unfortunately, I have a congenital tendency to sound sarcastic, so I'll simply say "I liked it," and move on.

I'd like to answer the question in the title.

Restated: Have you had to "dream sequence" to save a player at campaign start?

Answer: Had to? No. I don't think any DM has to use a dream sequence retcon to save a PC at campaign start. Frankly, you don't have to save a PC, at campaign start or at any other time. It's not your job as DM, at least not in one DM's opinion.

I think it was very benevolent of you to do that. Unnecessary, possibly undesirable, but certainly benevolent. But have I ever done such a thing? No.

If you get your PC killed at campaign start in my campaign, you roll a new PC. And this time, try to survive for more than five minutes.

[thematgreen]

He pulled so many ill thought out shenanigans throughout the campaign that I am glad we kept him. One time he ended up trying to punch an iron golem in the face with Shocking Grasp becasue "It should make my punch supercharged" and he wasn't joking, or the time he tried to stare down the leader of the city, an ancient (good) red dragon in the form of a bearded human wizard. He was lucky I rolled poorly or he would have been vaporized by the dragons "Death Gaze" attack.

He was possibly one of the worst, yet most amusing players I have played with.

I'm a fairly forgiving DM as long as you don't try to abuse my goodwill or the rules. If you become a rules lawyer you are asked to leave because I only use Pathfinder rules as a guideline and homebrew everything so that it makes it very difficult to know what is going to happen, what you are fighting, and even harder to rules lawyer. If you say "But according to the book it says ..." I will reply "Not in this game, I already explained that this campaign has it's own rules and you should know what they are by now".

[danzibr]

Yeah, I wouldn't do that. Makes players think they can do stupid crap like that and not die.

[thematgreen]

Yeah, I wouldn't do that. Makes players think they can do stupid crap like that and not die.

Okay

I find it fun, personally, when people can try stupid things without ruining the game. He did end up dying when he cast some protection from acid spell to try and choke a monster who swallowed him and was crushed to death.

[Lightlawbliss]

Closest I've had to dream sequence save was a "mysterious light without origin" casting revivify on a PC an Orc with a great-axe had just charged and (via crit and max damage roll) dropped from full to -11.

[sktarq]

only time I use dream sequences in D&D is in the Demiplane of Dread (especially if the mists drop them in the my homebrewed version of the 2e Ravenloft Dream regions) or in Eberron when Psionics are about.

[Dire Moose]

I've done this twice in order to keep the campaign going after a TPK. The occasions were:

Three level 6 characters against a pair of mummies, where I stupidly forgot to mention their weakness to fire after a successful Knowledge (religion) check (D&D 3.5). The party avoided the room with the mummies the second time.

Four level 2 characters against an ogre skeleton and two human zombies, all new players (Pathfinder with some leftover 3.5 elements). The party won the second time due to better strategy.

[Jagernaut]

I am reminded of a incident in Sigil. Me, a nezumi cleric of Dionysus, and the human sorcerer of I like to get drunk and do stupid things, were looking for a party. We find a night club that seems pretty rocking, but has a storm giant bouncer. I happen to know that a halfling owns the establishment and inform the sorcerer, who immediately casts glibness. So we talk to the bouncer and it goes like this.

Sorc: Let us in.
Giant: Sorry, private party tonight and you're not on the list.
Sorc: But I'm friends with the managers dad!
Me: What?
Giant: ...OK. You're still not getting in.
Sorc: I'm pretty sure you want to let us in.
Giant: Oh yeah? Why would I want to do that? (Puffs out chest.)
Sorc: Well I wanted to keep this quite, but I'm actually the owner of this establishment. Let us in.
Giant: Why do you look like a human? And when did you leave the party?
Sorc: I uh needed some fresh air. And this is how I always look.
Giant: ...Okay, I guess you can go in. (Opens door to loud birthday party...for the real owner, who is currently singing karaoke) Hey wait a minute...
Me: I start walking away.
Sorc: Gasp! My evil twin brother!
Me: Scratch that I run away.
Giant: Uh-huh.
Sorc: How did he get out of the Lady of Pain's maze?
Giant: Have you met my great club?
Sorc: Squish.

Granted the DM was a bit hard on him, but this was far from the only time he tried to get away with downright stupid lies. Like trying to convince a silver dragon that calling someone a fruit was a compliment. That was a fun campaign.

Also, wow this post turned out longer than I expected. Hope it wasnt boring.

[Kazyan]

Not at the campaign start, but I have had to retcon a gaffe that made me unfairly kill a PC.

PCs wander off the rails and go investigate the abandoned site of a Cult of Vecna I had to make up on the spot. Beguiler goes to scout out the place alone. I decide there's a Greater Shadow in there, because I expected the entire party to go in instead of the Beguiler.

The Beguiler is level 5 (maybe 6?) at the time. Greater Shadows are CR 8 even when they don't get a surprise round.

I retcon the death because it was a huge mistake on my part; instead the Greater Shadow gets blasted by lightning from the NPC in the dungeon, grabbing its attention and letting the Beguiler escape.

[aleucard]

Everyone has a brain fart on occasion. Giving a single freebie is alright in my book, as long as it doesn't become a habit. Players won't learn if you hold their hand ALL the time.

[BWR]

PCs shouldn't suffer because of GM mistakes. if you leave out critical information that leads to PC death or even a TPK, I think it just fair to retcon events to take that into account. I've made mistakes in this area on a couple of occasions and it really annoys the players and doesn't really make a good game or story. To correct GM errors, 'only a dream' is perfectly acceptable.
PCs suffering for player stupidity, especially when the GM drops strong hints or outright says what they propose is stupid, is not grounds for 'only a dream'. This isn't a video game with saves and infinite retries.

[jjcrpntr]

I'm trying to come up with a way to say "cool story, bro," and sound sincere, because that actually was an amusing story of player stupidity. Unfortunately, I have a congenital tendency to sound sarcastic, so I'll simply say "I liked it," and move on.

I'd like to answer the question in the title.

Restated: Have you had to "dream sequence" to save a player at campaign start?

Answer: Had to? No. I don't think any DM has to use a dream sequence retcon to save a PC at campaign start. Frankly, you don't have to save a PC, at campaign start or at any other time. It's not your job as DM, at least not in one DM's opinion.

I think it was very benevolent of you to do that. Unnecessary, possibly undesirable, but certainly benevolent. But have I ever done such a thing? No.

If you get your PC killed at campaign start in my campaign, you roll a new PC. And this time, try to survive for more than five minutes.


I have a player that routinely does stupid stuff, things that he and the entire party knows is not a good idea. At first I let it slide but finally i said ok, fine just so you know there's going to fall out from you doing stupid stuff. Luckily he's ok with it and just has fun and nothing he's done has been overly detrimental to the party.

[thematgreen]

PCs shouldn't suffer because of GM mistakes. if you leave out critical information that leads to PC death or even a TPK, I think it just fair to retcon events to take that into account. I've made mistakes in this area on a couple of occasions and it really annoys the players and doesn't really make a good game or story. To correct GM errors, 'only a dream' is perfectly acceptable.
PCs suffering for player stupidity, especially when the GM drops strong hints or outright says what they propose is stupid, is not grounds for 'only a dream'. This isn't a video game with saves and infinite retries.

His mess ups were hilarious because he wasn't trying to be funny, he honestly believed he was being super creative. Eventually I rolled a D20 any time he did something stupid, the "Acid proof myself and choke the beast from the inside" was when I rolled a 1 and he died. He was disappointed, but had no problem rolling a new character...the twin brother of his Wizard....yep....He also mellowed out on.

Another time he kept being told to stay towards the back of a group. The fighter went to swing his greatsword at a zombie in a tight hallway and the Wizard leaped forward going "WAIT! I think I have a spell to control it!" (He didn't, he though Charm Person would work) and the fighter rolled a 1, and then I rolled a "Punishment dice" and got a 1...bad result, the Wizard was cleaved by accident and went instantly from full to -8 HP. Lucky for the Wizard there was a Cleric in the group....he learned to stay in the back of the group. He was pretty amused OOC with the result and IC his wizard was CONVINCED that the fighter did it on purpose and stayed away from him, much to the happiness of the fighter. Good times.

[Honest Tiefling]

Everyone has a brain fart on occasion. Giving a single freebie is alright in my book, as long as it doesn't become a habit. Players won't learn if you hold their hand ALL the time.

Eh, I don't think people are here to learn how to play the game properly usually. I think it should be up to the DM to try to determine what is best for the group to enjoy themselves. Some groups like to tear victory from the jaws of defeat due to sheer skill, others...Seem a bit goofier or more causal or whatever. The DM and the other players seem fine with him, so why punish him if it isn't going to make anyone happy? The DM certainly seems amused by his antics and he doesn't seem malicious.

[jjcrpntr]

His mess ups were hilarious because he wasn't trying to be funny, he honestly believed he was being super creative. Eventually I rolled a D20 any time he did something stupid, the "Acid proof myself and choke the beast from the inside" was when I rolled a 1 and he died. He was disappointed, but had no problem rolling a new character...the twin brother of his Wizard....yep....He also mellowed out on.

Another time he kept being told to stay towards the back of a group. The fighter went to swing his greatsword at a zombie in a tight hallway and the Wizard leaped forward going "WAIT! I think I have a spell to control it!" (He didn't, he though Charm Person would work) and the fighter rolled a 1, and then I rolled a "Punishment dice" and got a 1...bad result, the Wizard was cleaved by accident and went instantly from full to -8 HP. Lucky for the Wizard there was a Cleric in the group....he learned to stay in the back of the group. He was pretty amused OOC with the result and IC his wizard was CONVINCED that the fighter did it on purpose and stayed away from him, much to the happiness of the fighter. Good times.

Sounds like your player at least has the right spirit. I have 2 guys in my group. One as I mentioned does stupid stuff and then laughs at the result. Then I have another who charges into a hallway after seeing a few drow and hearing one yell "get the others" a few rounds prior, runs charges up and gets nailed by a bunch of drow as he stumbles right in to an ambush. Then screams at me for f'n with him.

I don't mind players that do stupid stuff like the guy you're describing as long as they have a good heart about it and can laugh it off.

[BWR]

His mess ups were hilarious because he wasn't trying to be funny, he honestly believed he was being super creative.

Believe me, I know this type of player. They can be loads of fun to play with if they have a sense of humor. They can be annoying if they get pissy and never learn. It doesn't mean their antics aren't stupid and they shouldn't have sensible consequences. OTOH, if you want to let their ridiculousness have a chance of working, that's fine too. As long as everyone is having fun, the game is good. It's just many games, including most of the ones I run, making stupid decisions will have unfortunate consequences.

[Krobar]

I had a 2nd level wizard once upon a time in my game. He had Featherfall on his spell list. The party was at the top of a very tall cliff and had to get to the bottom. The wizard says "screw taking all day...let's all just jump. I got this." So they all jumped.

Then he realized he memorized Charm Person instead of Featherfall.

I didn't save them. That was over 20 years ago now and we still laugh about that.

[thematgreen]

Believe me, I know this type of player. They can be loads of fun to play with if they have a sense of humor. They can be annoying if they get pissy and never learn. It doesn't mean their antics aren't stupid and they shouldn't have sensible consequences. OTOH, if you want to let their ridiculousness have a chance of working, that's fine too. As long as everyone is having fun, the game is good. It's just many games, including most of the ones I run, making stupid decisions will have unfortunate consequences.

I try very hard to let players do what they want, which is why I instituted the "Chaos Dice". It's a d20 and if the player wants to do something really stupid I roll the dice and the result may be successful, they may die I show them the roll so they can't argue that I am picking on them.

I've only had one player get mad because he believed I was punishing him because he wanted to do stupid stupid things like "I'm going to turn invisible and wake up the dragon so it thinks there is an intruder and leaves it's lair looking for the intruder." He was unhappy that he "forgot" that the dragon was blind so had Blindsense 120ft and argued so much I finally rolled a dice, got a 1, and he was eaten. He was the kind of player that "forgot" rules and such all the time and would argue until I rolled the "Chaos Dice", and that just carried over to other games.