Diplomancer vs the party

[HMS Invincible]

How strong would a Diplomancer be vs a party? I think it'll be fun because Diplomancer don't work on players. It sets up a dynamic where everyone he talks to converts to a fanatic or indifference.
I'm going to set it on an island to limit the bad guys resources.

Stupid Internet ate my post.

[BrokenChord]

The threat of a diplomancer hinges entirely on what's there to be diplomanced. In order to properly evaluate this, we need some information about what NPCs he can reasonably access and the party's own resources.

[Sigh]

It also entirely depends on whether or not your players want to play by the rules or not with regards to someone that's trying to get their characters to do something that their players might not want to do (assuming that the diplomancer at any point tries to talk to/convince the players themselves to do something). I had a discussion about Diplomancers with my fellow players recently and my attempts to defend the play style were rebuffed with a quick "and what if I just don't listen and stab him in the face?", which is when I tried to explain that's where the magical aspect of the playstyle kicks in but they weren't having any of it.

Basically, if the playstyles of your party are more bloodthirsty and less roleplay-ey a Diplomancer antagonist might not be the best of ideas.

[HMS Invincible]

E6 Party 3.5 + PF combo system All level 6
Cavalier 6 (mounted charger T4)
Factotum 6
Swordsage2/Swashbucker2/Rogue2
Swordsage2/Duskblade3/Some light&dark ninja class
Alchemist 6 PF (native of island, loyal to a town)

Notables: Drommund warship, complement of 30ish sailors, and 12 Bard followers and 1 Bard cohort spread amongst party.
Low to Mid magic access for the PCs only.
Tiers 1-2 classes are banned.
Ritual magic replaces high level magic.

Island- has endless jungle warlords fighting each other for ever shifting control of the 3 main towns.

So I have the background, and my goal is to have an appropriate series of encounters for the Party. Therefore the town size and composition should change to in order to give the party appropriate encounters. According to the DMG, I should half the level and double the number of the highest level per class per city. So I the CR distribution should match x number of lvl 6 NPCs, and 2x lvl 3 NPCs, and 4x lvl 1 NPCs.
There's also the limitations involved, the diplomancer is only 1(technically 2 person team) person and has to speak face to face and it only lasts a duration of days per charisma mod?. So wouldn't he try to arrange gatherings for the convenience of his skills?

[BrokenChord]

It also entirely depends on whether or not your players want to play by the rules or not with regards to someone that's trying to get their characters to do something that their players might not want to do (assuming that the diplomancer at any point tries to talk to/convince the players themselves to do something). I had a discussion about Diplomancers with my fellow players recently and my attempts to defend the play style were rebuffed with a quick "and what if I just don't listen and stab him in the face?", which is when I tried to explain that's where the magical aspect of the playstyle kicks in but they weren't having any of it.

Basically, if the playstyles of your party are more bloodthirsty and less roleplay-ey a Diplomancer antagonist might not be the best of ideas.

It has nothing to do with bloodthirst. Social skills aren't intended for use against PCs, and in particular the Attitudes (Hostile, Fanatic, etc.) are an NPC-only thing; PCs literally don't even have them, at least not mechanically.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A diplomancer has no ability to directly affect the PC's since they're explicitly immune to diplomacy by the rules of the game.

Therefore they play like a weaker enchanter.

[Fouredged Sword]

The diplomancer will have the following advantages.

A - He will always be described to the party in a positive light. Slant your narrative in his direction (best way to sneak diplomacy into a game with PC's)

B - He will have access to wealth and resources, including high level rituals.

C - He will lead men. His army will likely be bigger than their army.

[BrokenChord]

The diplomancer will have the following advantages.

A - He will always be described to the party in a positive light. Slant your narrative in his direction (best way to sneak diplomacy into a game with PC's)

B - He will have access to wealth and resources, including high level rituals.

C - He will lead men. His army will likely be bigger than their army.

If he's playing it right, his army and the non-PC parts of their army are sort of interchangeable. :smallwink:

[Spore]

Also plan ahead for the party JOINING him rather than fighting him. Pat yourself on the back for being a good DM and then have the PCs do the work FOR your BBEG!

[Sam K]

A diplomancer BBEG that's identified as the BBEG will have lost much of its power. You wouldn't suspect a diplomancer to be the bad guy (or girl) because they sure seem nice. All their followers seem to adore them, and their soldiers seem to serve them out of loyalty, not fear. The ideal diplomancer BBEG acts as a "quest giver", and has the PCs convinced that the other factions on the island are the local equivelent of goblins: evil pests that's totally ok to kill for gold and experience!

When the PCs end up fighting the diplomancers minions, it should be nasty. Regular BBEGs may use women and children as human shields; a diplomancer has them voulenteering to help fight the PCs. More "heroic" characters may have a hard time with this. Also, expect a diplomancer to have a network of spies and assassins like noone else. They'll have innkeepers poisoning your ale, sages feeding you the wrong information and stable boys keeping tabs on where you sleep every night.

[HMS Invincible]

Sam. Is it worth it to make him not so obviously evil? Would it make sense in maybe an antihero or knight Templar way?

[Jeff the Green]

Don't forget that a Diplomancer is likely to be a horrible mess of a build but with at least a significant number of Bard levels, meaning that with just a little bit more optimization it can significantly increase the damage output of its zealots. Particularly if you give him an alphorn.

[Sam K]

Sam. Is it worth it to make him not so obviously evil? Would it make sense in maybe an antihero or knight Templar way?

I would say you pretty much HAVE to make a diplomancer villains evil less obvious or they just become a BBEG that's overshadowed by their minions. Although it could be kinda funny to have a diplomancer BBEG in the form of a short, overweight asian guy with a silly hairstyle, walking with a cane, followed by a horde of people who fight for the "great leader".

Knights templar could be a good inspiration; secretive with some not-obvious agenda. Possibly willing to work with the party (trading information or something as such), but eventually ruthless in reaching their own goals (or rather, the goals of their grand master).