Using Levelled Characters as enemies and CR/Level equivelance

[Hytheter]

Ok, so obviously when using monsters against a party you use the CR to see if it's an appropriate challenge for the party.

But what if you're using a character with Class levels instead? What would their "CR" be? CR is based around a party of 4, so obviously it and level aren't equivelent. If the enemy is the same level as your four players then it's going to get crushed. So how many levels higher should a lone character be than a party to challenge said party?

In other words, what is the equivelance of CR to Character Level?

[Shadow]

Look at the NPCs in the MM and HotDQ supplement for examples. The following are from the HotDQ supp:
Mage: 9th level caster, 9HD = CR 6
Knight: pure martial with 1 special and a parry reaction, 8HD = CR 3
Priest: 5th level caster with 1 special, 5HD = CR 2
Scout: pure martial with multi(extra)attack, 3HD = CR 1/2

Pure martial characters seem to be one quarter to one third level to calculate CR.
The more special abilities it has, the higher the CR. Spells count for a lot.

So basically it depends on the class of the enemy and what he could do. What did you have in mind?

[Hytheter]

Look at the NPCs in the DMG and HotDQ supplement for examples. The following are from the HotDQ supp:
Mage: 9th level caster, 9HD = CR 6
Knight: pure martial with 1 special and a parry reaction, 8HD = CR 3
Priest: 5th level caster with 1 special, 5HD = CR 2
Scout: pure martial with multi(extra)attack, 3HD = CR 1/2

Pure martial characters seem to be one quarter to one third level to calculate CR.
The more special abilities it has, the higher the CR. Spells count for a lot.

I don't have those materials on hand, so I have to ask:
Do those NPCs have actual class levels,r are they just stat blocks with a couple of abilities or spells that vaguely resemble actual characters? In other words, is the Mage a 9th level wizard/sorcerer, or just a generic "Mage"?

I feel like if the former was true then there wouldn't be a discrepency between martials and casters because the classes are balanced (or at least they are as far as I'd expect the developers to admit).
And the latter case isn't really helpful to what I'm asking, since actual Class levels probably give more abilities then can be found in more generic stat blocks.

[Shadow]

I don't have those materials on hand, so I have to ask:
Do those NPCs have actual class levels,r are they just stat blocks with a couple of abilities or spells that vaguely resemble actual characters? In other words, is the Mage a 9th level wizard/sorcerer, or just a generic "Mage"?

I feel like if the former was true then there wouldn't be a discrepency between martials and casters because the classes are balanced (or at least they are as far as I'd expect the developers to admit).
And the latter case isn't really helpful to what I'm asking, since actual Class levels probably give more abilities then can be found in more generic stat blocks.

The Mage is basically a 9th level wizard with proficiencies, a spell list, the whole nine but uses d8s for HP instead of d6s. But that's decieving.

In the case of the former, wherein you would *think* that they're balanced, consider that your normal martial type would have his normal compliment of abilities. The caster, however, doesn't have to ration his spell slots like a normal caster would. He can, and most definitely will use his full compliment of spell slots in a single encouner with the PCs.
Factor in things like the shield spell.... and that becomes a HUGE power boost.
The Priest's special is basically the Pally's Smite. He burns slots for a bunch of additional damage. He may only have 2HD more than the Scout (who attacks twice), but that, in conjuntion with his casting, makes his CR 8 times higher than the Scout's.

So the class and abilities available actually does matter for the purposes of this excercise. As far as PCs are concerned, casters are balanced by their need to ration their slots. An enemy caster has no such contraints.

[Hytheter]

The same can apply to other characters though. For example, a Fighter who can feel free to blow his Action Surge, Second Wind and all his Maneuver Dice in a single fight. It's not quite as much as a spell nova, but it's definitely something.

But the other point I was making is that those generic characters probably aren't great for figuring out an appropriate CR for actual characters, since actual characters are more capable than their generic counterparts. The 8HD Knight is obviously less powerful than the Fighter above at 8th Level. The casters are probably closer to accurate, since Spells for the most part are their class features, but even then they will have options not present on the NPC stat blocks.

[Shadow]

The same can apply to other characters though. For example, a Fighter who can feel free to blow his Action Surge, Second Wind and all his Maneuver Dice in a single fight. It's not quite as much as a spell nova, but it's definitely something.

Those are per short rest. They are balanced so that the fighter has them available every single time he gets into a fight, with no need for rationing them.
Spell slots are per long rest, and need to be rationed.... unless you're using a character as an enemy only designed for one fight, in which case the fact that they don't need to ration those slots is a GIGANTIC power boost over a comparable PC caster.
PC casters are balanced against martial types because the casters need to ration their slots, while the martials don't need to ration their resources.
Removing that resource management requirement is a huge boost in power.


But the other point I was making is that those generic characters probably aren't great for figuring out an appropriate CR for actual characters, since actual characters are more capable than their generic counterparts. The 8HD Knight is obviously less powerful than the Fighter above at 8th Level. The casters are probably closer to accurate, since Spells for the most part are their class features, but even then they will have options not present on the NPC stat blocks.
My point stands. You need to have an enemy character in mind or there will be no way to answer your question accurately and truthfully.

[Hytheter]

Well, for the sake of example let's say a Waizard and a Battle Master Fighter then. Separate encounters.

[Shadow]

That would depend on specialty school and spell list for the wizard. The shool ability at level 6 makes a big difference.... or it doesn't, depending on the school and spell selection.
It would depend on fighting style and maneuver choices for the fighter. Level 7 is going to be a big jump in CR for that fighter by doubling his maneuvers known.... or not, depending on the maneuvers chosen.

Seriously, you can't do it without a character. Not a concept. A character. The details are what make such a big difference, and without those details we'd be throwing darts at a board while blindfolded.

[MaxWilson]

Ok, so obviously when using monsters against a party you use the CR to see if it's an appropriate challenge for the party.

But what if you're using a character with Class levels instead? What would their "CR" be? CR is based around a party of 4, so obviously it and level aren't equivelent. If the enemy is the same level as your four players then it's going to get crushed. So how many levels higher should a lone character be than a party to challenge said party?

In other words, what is the equivelance of CR to Character Level?

CR is fairly worthless already for evaluating difficulty, so let's just skip that part and answer your question about "fair challenge." Assuming you want a medium difficulty encounter and not a deadly one, I'd say that any enemy with level equal to the party and ranged attacks, AoE or mind-affecting spells is about a medium challenge, because they can target weak links. For melee characters I'd generally guesstimate that having one extra attack per round compared to the party makes it a medium challenge. In all cases, add one to difficulty if the NPC can prep the battlefield or attack from surprise.

All these should force a significant expenditure of resources to defeat, but not a deadly threat, ergo medium/hard.