Alagos
2014-10-31, 11:39 PM
Hello all,
I've just started a new campaign with a group of friends, and had the basics of a TWF, shield bashing maneuver machine build in the works. I've been wanting to get unarmed fighting into the mix while still keeping the theme of the character, via a 1 level dip. Monk is out of the question due to RP (he's a brazen foul-mouthed Irish mercenary with little regard to law), so that leaves Brawler. Just Brawler by itself would be okay, but I wanted to somehow mix the Wild Child and Snakebite Striker archetypes into the mix, for the early animal companion and sneak attack dice from the 1 level dip. My only problem is the way the multiple archetypes clause is worded in the SRD:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
The main issue lies with Snakebite Striker replacing Martial Flexibility:
Sneak Attack (Ex)
At 1st level, the snakebite striker can make a sneak attack. This is as the rogue ability of the same name. At 1st level, her sneak attack damage is +1d6. This increases by 1d6 at 6th, 10th, 12th, and 20th levels. If she gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
This ability replaces martial flexibility.
This combined with Wild Child's alteration to the martial flexibility feature at later levels:
Hunter's Tricks
At 5th level, a wild child can expend a use of martial flexibility to use a trick from the ranger skirmisher archetype. Each time he activates this ability, the wild child can use a different hunter trick. He cannot choose any tricks that rely on ranged attacks. Activating this ability is not an action, but using the trick might require the wild child to use an action of a different type.
This ability replaces close weapon Mastery.
Now, notice the wording of the two. Wild Child's hunter tricks only gives an option to use Martial Flexibility to gain skirmisher tricks. It does not alter the original function of the ability, it merely adds onto it by giving you that option. One could never use it at all with the Wild Child archetype and it wouldn't matter. However, Snakebite Striker replaces Martial Flexibility outright. My question is, would this be prohibited as per the wording in combined archetypes? They both alter the class feature to some extent, but one of the alterations completely voids the other, by replacing the ability with sneak attack. Also note that in the last sentence of Hunter's Tricks, it says it "replaces close weapon Mastery", not Martial Flexibility.
There is no other clash with the archetypes, except for a minor detail with Maneuver Training.
Wild Child
Maneuver Training (Ex)
Whenever the wild child chooses a new maneuver for this ability, his animal companion also learns a trick to make use of this combat maneuver. For example, if the wild child chooses maneuver training (dirty trick), his animal companion also learns a trick that allows it to use the dirty trick combat maneuver. He cannot choose any tricks that rely on ranged attacks. This bonus trick doesn't count against the animal companion's total tricks known and does not take any time or checks to train. Should the wild child gain a new animal companion (such as if the previous one dies), this new animal companion begins with the same number of bonus tricks.
This ability alters maneuver training.
Snakebite Striker
Snake Feint (Ex)
At 3rd level, a snakebite striker who uses a standard action to move can combine that move with a feint. If she is able to feint as a move action (such as from having the Improved Feint feat), she can combine a move action to move with her feint. At 11th level, once per round she can declare her square and one adjacent square as the origin of her attacks until her next turn (allowing her to use one or both squares to determine whether she or allies are flanking an opponent). At 15th level, she counts an additional adjacent square for this purpose.
This ability replaces maneuver training gained at 3rd and 7th levels.
Opportunist (Ex)
At 11th level, once per round the snakebite striker can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. She cannot use this ability more than once per round, even if she has the Combat Reflexes feat or a similar ability. At 19th level, she can use this ability twice per round.
This ability replaces the maneuver training gained at 11th and 19th levels.
Snakebite Striker replaces maneuver trainings at set levels, but it skips level 15. Wild Child alters maneuver training, in that whatever maneuver you train at, your animal companion can also use as a bonus combat trick. You can still use this alteration of maneuver training at level 15, therefore the two should be able to combine. If Snakebite Striker replaced every level of maneuver training, it would be a different story.
Am I reading all of this correctly? Is there something I'm missing? Some illogical assumption? I'd really love clarification on this before I ask my DM to give it a shot.
I've just started a new campaign with a group of friends, and had the basics of a TWF, shield bashing maneuver machine build in the works. I've been wanting to get unarmed fighting into the mix while still keeping the theme of the character, via a 1 level dip. Monk is out of the question due to RP (he's a brazen foul-mouthed Irish mercenary with little regard to law), so that leaves Brawler. Just Brawler by itself would be okay, but I wanted to somehow mix the Wild Child and Snakebite Striker archetypes into the mix, for the early animal companion and sneak attack dice from the 1 level dip. My only problem is the way the multiple archetypes clause is worded in the SRD:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
The main issue lies with Snakebite Striker replacing Martial Flexibility:
Sneak Attack (Ex)
At 1st level, the snakebite striker can make a sneak attack. This is as the rogue ability of the same name. At 1st level, her sneak attack damage is +1d6. This increases by 1d6 at 6th, 10th, 12th, and 20th levels. If she gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
This ability replaces martial flexibility.
This combined with Wild Child's alteration to the martial flexibility feature at later levels:
Hunter's Tricks
At 5th level, a wild child can expend a use of martial flexibility to use a trick from the ranger skirmisher archetype. Each time he activates this ability, the wild child can use a different hunter trick. He cannot choose any tricks that rely on ranged attacks. Activating this ability is not an action, but using the trick might require the wild child to use an action of a different type.
This ability replaces close weapon Mastery.
Now, notice the wording of the two. Wild Child's hunter tricks only gives an option to use Martial Flexibility to gain skirmisher tricks. It does not alter the original function of the ability, it merely adds onto it by giving you that option. One could never use it at all with the Wild Child archetype and it wouldn't matter. However, Snakebite Striker replaces Martial Flexibility outright. My question is, would this be prohibited as per the wording in combined archetypes? They both alter the class feature to some extent, but one of the alterations completely voids the other, by replacing the ability with sneak attack. Also note that in the last sentence of Hunter's Tricks, it says it "replaces close weapon Mastery", not Martial Flexibility.
There is no other clash with the archetypes, except for a minor detail with Maneuver Training.
Wild Child
Maneuver Training (Ex)
Whenever the wild child chooses a new maneuver for this ability, his animal companion also learns a trick to make use of this combat maneuver. For example, if the wild child chooses maneuver training (dirty trick), his animal companion also learns a trick that allows it to use the dirty trick combat maneuver. He cannot choose any tricks that rely on ranged attacks. This bonus trick doesn't count against the animal companion's total tricks known and does not take any time or checks to train. Should the wild child gain a new animal companion (such as if the previous one dies), this new animal companion begins with the same number of bonus tricks.
This ability alters maneuver training.
Snakebite Striker
Snake Feint (Ex)
At 3rd level, a snakebite striker who uses a standard action to move can combine that move with a feint. If she is able to feint as a move action (such as from having the Improved Feint feat), she can combine a move action to move with her feint. At 11th level, once per round she can declare her square and one adjacent square as the origin of her attacks until her next turn (allowing her to use one or both squares to determine whether she or allies are flanking an opponent). At 15th level, she counts an additional adjacent square for this purpose.
This ability replaces maneuver training gained at 3rd and 7th levels.
Opportunist (Ex)
At 11th level, once per round the snakebite striker can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. She cannot use this ability more than once per round, even if she has the Combat Reflexes feat or a similar ability. At 19th level, she can use this ability twice per round.
This ability replaces the maneuver training gained at 11th and 19th levels.
Snakebite Striker replaces maneuver trainings at set levels, but it skips level 15. Wild Child alters maneuver training, in that whatever maneuver you train at, your animal companion can also use as a bonus combat trick. You can still use this alteration of maneuver training at level 15, therefore the two should be able to combine. If Snakebite Striker replaced every level of maneuver training, it would be a different story.
Am I reading all of this correctly? Is there something I'm missing? Some illogical assumption? I'd really love clarification on this before I ask my DM to give it a shot.