Oracle Deaf Curse questions.

[Desiani]

I have had a few discussions with a few friends debating the Deaf curse and the pros and cons of it. The biggest point of contention seems to be that it 'forces' the DM to change created NPCs to auto know sign language or burdens one of the other party members to spend a language slot on Sign language.

I can see the points, but I don't see them as big things...I just think having wings/flight plus tremor sense equals a pretty good perception roll xD

How do y'all handle the deaf curse?

[CockroachTeaParty]

I want to say somewhere, maybe in an FAQ, it was mentioned that it wouldn't be unreasonable for a deaf oracle to be able to read lips. So in situations where said oracle is relatively close to someone they can see, they can understand them without jumping through too many hoops.

Deaf is certainly one of the more intense curses, so it's always appropriate to bring it up to your DM.

Fun fact: I once had a character recruit a deaf oracle as a cohort; it worked out quite well, as said oracle mostly stood quietly in the background, practically the ideal cohort! :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

I want to say somewhere, maybe in an FAQ, it was mentioned that it wouldn't be unreasonable for a deaf oracle to be able to read lips.

You are correct sir.
Linky (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9os8)
But do note that it is a "Society FAQ", and not a "normal FAQ", which means it isn't a full 100% ruling, and it is ultimately up to your DM to decide how things work.

But seriously: What the hell Paizo? You specifically go and make a Deaf curse, and then NOT give any obvious by-the-book rules way to communicate?
Extra note: the ONLY non-verbal language in Linguistics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/linguistics) is "Drow Sign Language", which is a "Secret" language, like how Druidic is a secret language, so presumably only Drow's have Sign Language.

[skypse]

OK I think I have a lot in my mind to write down, but I will try not to make it chaotic. However, sorry if it gets chaotic :D

1st I would like to say that some months ago I wanted to play a Rage Prophet PrC with the dual-curse class feature. I took "lame" as primary curse and "deaf" as secondary. The main reason I did this is because I wanted to have the passive "silent" metamagic AND for flavour/fun reasons. I have to say that BOTH reasons worked out perfectly. I can't remember 1 session in which we all needed less than 3 breaks just to get over the last situation and stop laughing.

SIDENOTE: The very first thing you have to define is how and when you got this curse. Most oracles have their curses by birth, but this doesn't mean that they can't get the curse sometime in their lives. The reason this choise is important for you, is the specific curse you chose. People who are deaf by birth, they have never heard words or other people speaking. This means that they have NO idea how a word is pronounced or even a single letter. In order to be able to write/read/lip-read (especially the last one) you need to be able to understand how a language works. This should be included in your background story for your character. Trust me when I say it WILL help you a LOT later. In case you decide you were born deaf, then you need to explain how you got to learn the "mechanics" of even the common (or your race's) language. Who tought you, why they tought you, when did they teach you.


2) On the handling issue: There is no official sign language in the books so you have 2 options which you must discuss with your DM:

Have a homebrew "Common Sign Language" in linguistics or use the link about the lip-reading
Put ranks in Craft Calligraphy and Sleight of Hands so you can write what you need to say fast enough for you to keep up in a conversation.


Another thing you can do (although I don't really recommend it but it is up to your DM) is to trade something (yours/DM's choise) in order to get Prestidigation in your spell list. This way you can use the spell in order to write something fast so you don't have to put ranks in calligraphy/SoH.

In general however, the "body language" is completely different and much simpler than the "sign language". You can still use your hands to show stuff to people or use face expressions to show your feelings about something. You can't elaborate on an issue and this may hurt your RP (considering you are a high charisma class it is ok to assume that you might be the face of your party) but Calligraphy/SoH + lip-reading, is your best bet if you want to avoid homebrew and want to stick with the RAW.


Now a few points to highlight here:
1) You ARE deaf so you ARE suffering a -4 initiative AND -4 on opposed perception checks. However you can normally overcome those penalties as time goes by (DM's discretion)
2) You are IMMUNE to spells that are bound by "telling" something. You are deaf, thus you can't speak. You have never heard how speech is so you can't use it. Bye bye zone of truth :D
3) You still get free silent spells. AWESOME.
4) Tremorsense comes in late, and in small areas. Don't get overexited. You are still a cloth-hp character.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

In Society, I have seen a kickass deaf battle oracle. She carried a slate and chalk for communication outside of combat. Depending on her diplomacy checks, her messages had more flowers. Oh, yeah, the player had a whiteboard to write with as well.

[skypse]

I was writing on the ground using a stick or the handle of my weapon when I wasn't holding a paper or I was out of ink. The thing is that you need to justify HOW you have knowledge of the language first.

[grarrrg]

The thing is that you need to justify HOW you have knowledge of the language first.

A Wizard did it.

[skypse]

A Wizard did it.

Lame... Why is it so hard for people to try and bond with their characters and provide a background story that justifies their very existance?
DnD is about RP. It's not a hack n slash video game that all you care about is kickin' ass and takin' names.

[Milo v3]

Lame... Why is it so hard for people to try and bond with their characters and provide a background story that justifies their very existance?
DnD is about RP. It's not a hack n slash video game that all you care about is kickin' ass and takin' names.

Well, since wizards can learn draconic without ever hearing it, so theoretically a wizard could do it. :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

1) You ARE deaf so you ARE suffering a -4 initiative AND -4 on opposed perception checks. However you can normally overcome those penalties as time goes by (DM's discretion)
2) You are IMMUNE to spells that are bound by "telling" something. You are deaf, thus you can't speak. You have never heard how speech is so you can't use it. Bye bye zone of truth :D

1) DM discretion? The curse scales and reduces (some) of the penalties for you.
2) Deaf does not mean Mute, if you were not born deaf you are (likely) very much still capable of talking and producing sounds.

Also, from a strictly rules standpoint, you can't be an Oracle (and thus cannot have a Curse) until you are of a certain minimum age (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/description).
Minimum age for an Oracle/Human is 16 years, before that point you wouldn't be Cursed, and presumably heard things perfectly fine, thus you should still be able to speak (mostly) fine.
You can always role-play or backstory whatever you want (and whatever your DM will allow), just stating was is strictly in the rules.

[skypse]

1) DM discretion? The curse scales and reduces (some) of the penalties for you.
In RAW, under the conditions, it states that deaf characters suffer loss at perception and initiatives and 20% chance of failing spells with the V material but you can however with the passing of time overcome those difficulties for you. The oracle curse says that you gain the silent metamagic so all cool there and it also says that you suffer all the normal penalties for being deaf. So according to the condition, after some time that his DM believes is enough, he can reduce his perception penalty. He still gets to fail all the perception penalties from hearing unless he has increased his curse level to the tremorsense but at least he can get rid of the initiatives penalty or at least get it reduced earlier before his curse levels remove it.


2) Deaf does not mean Mute, if you were not born deaf you are (likely) very much still capable of talking and producing sounds.
According to RL science that's wrong. If you have never heard someone speaking you cannot understand how a single letter sounds, let alone try and speak on your own. Someone can explain that the letter "e" is pronounced "iiiii" (no idea of semantics :D) but that doesn't mean you can use it properly.




Also, from a strictly rules standpoint, you can't be an Oracle (and thus cannot have a Curse) until you are of a certain minimum age (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/description).
Minimum age for an Oracle/Human is 16 years, before that point you wouldn't be Cursed, and presumably heard things perfectly fine, thus you should still be able to speak (mostly) fine.
You can always role-play or backstory whatever you want (and whatever your DM will allow), just stating was is strictly in the rules.

Agreed. I never said he has to explain how he got knowledge of the language if he was not born deaf and I didn't know that the oracle's curse can't be applied to you since birth. In such case, he does know his original language + as many as his INT modifier and linguistics rank allow him.





Well, since wizards can learn draconic without ever hearing it, so theoretically a wizard could do it. :smalltongue:
Theoritically he could be a 20 level wizard-10 level cleric of Asmodeus that made a contract with Asmodeus to appear and function like a 1 level Oracle until he fulfills his side of the contract and become Asmodeus's right hand. Should we base character backgrounds on what can "theoritically" be done in a game?

[Serafina]

Born-Deaf people CAN learn to lip-read - it just takes a lot of effort and formalized training.
Which you can easily fit into your characters background - you were born deaf, and your parents took care to have it taught to you (or multiple variations thereof).
Likewise, certain verbal cues can be learned by born-deaf people.

Both of those are very hard and unlikely to result in fluent communication, since you can't really engage the mechanisms used for natural language learning due to lack of the right feedback. Which is why having someone with sign language around is important.


As for forcing NPCs/Party Members to know sign language:
If you genuinely invest into Linguistics, you will eventually run out of languages you can find use for. The Party-Wizard (or Rogue who uses the skill for Forgery) learning Common Sign Language instead of Boggard is hardly a major sacrifice.
Have that party-member translate for you whenever you need to follow a conversation.

Alternatively, grab a class feature/feat that gives you a companion that can do that for you.
Go grab a Familiar with hands/claws via Arcane Eldritch Heritage and take an Improved Familiar, which then replaces one of its languages known with a sign language.
Or grab the Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/squire) feat to get a Cohort.

[Spore]

Which part of RAW says that you have to be deaf since birth?

[NightbringerGGZ]

Which part of RAW says that you have to be deaf since birth?

Exactly. Considering that the mythology used to inspire the "Curse" class feature often has oracles being struck blind as the price for their visions of the future it's quite reasonable to assume many characters didn't gain their powers and curse of deafness until sometime later in their life.

[Serafina]

Which part of RAW says that you have to be deaf since birth?None, but i am pointing out options for people who want to play someone who has been born deaf.

[grarrrg]

In RAW, under the conditions, it states that deaf characters suffer loss at perception and initiatives and 20% chance of failing spells with the V material but you can however with the passing of time overcome those difficulties for you.

I see where you're getting that from, the Deafened condition.
In this case I'd lean towards that since the Curse itself comes with penalty-negation/bonuses that you'd generally just ignore that bit of the condition.


According to RL science that's wrong. If you have never heard someone speaking you cannot understand how a single letter sounds, let alone try and speak on your own. Someone can explain that the letter "e" is pronounced "iiiii" (no idea of semantics :D) but that doesn't mean you can use it properly.

Reread what I wrote:

2) Deaf does not mean Mute, if you were not born deaf you are (likely) very much still capable of talking and producing sounds.

Consider people losing their hearing as they age, they can still speak just fine.
Consider someone getting their eardrums damaged in an explosion or somesuch, they can still speak just fine.

[skypse]

@Serafina +1

@grarrrg

Stand corrected. Didn't see the little "not" in there :D

As for the condition, the curse description says that the character suffers all the normal penalties for being deaf so I guess being deaf by the curse also penalizes you for initiative and perception checks just like the condition.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yes, you still suffer those penalties. Oracle of Battle has ways to reduce the risk (one revelation lets you roll twice for initiative), and there are other ways to reduce it.

[Milo v3]

Theoritically he could be a 20 level wizard-10 level cleric of Asmodeus that made a contract with Asmodeus to appear and function like a 1 level Oracle until he fulfills his side of the contract and become Asmodeus's right hand. Should we base character backgrounds on what can "theoritically" be done in a game?

Ummm... what :smallconfused:

[skypse]

Ummm... what :smallconfused:

In theory you can come up with any kind of crazy-ass story to justify things you want for/in your character. From personal experience, you get to bond only with the characters whose stories are not crazy-ass or lame like "A wizard/deity fill-in-the-gaps". It's those characters that you put actual thought of how they ended up where they are, that make you love them and REALLY enjoy RPing with them. Otherwise you are just a random NPC who happened to have a human being holding the paper and throwing the dices.

[Milo v3]

In theory you can come up with any kind of crazy-ass story to justify things you want for/in your character. From personal experience, you get to bond only with the characters whose stories are not crazy-ass or lame like "A wizard/deity fill-in-the-gaps". It's those characters that you put actual thought of how they ended up where they are, that make you love them and REALLY enjoy RPing with them. Otherwise you are just a random NPC who happened to have a human being holding the paper and throwing the dices.

I don't see how, learning a language without hearing it is on the same level as "a 20 level wizard-10 level cleric of Asmodeus that made a contract with Asmodeus to appear and function like a 1 level Oracle until he fulfills his side of the contract and become Asmodeus's right hand"....

Especially since I can think up decent back-stories as explanations rather than just throwing it in out of nowhere...

[skypse]

I don't see how, learning a language without hearing it is on the same level as "a 20 level wizard-10 level cleric of Asmodeus that made a contract with Asmodeus to appear and function like a 1 level Oracle until he fulfills his side of the contract and become Asmodeus's right hand"....

Especially since I can think up decent back-stories as explanations rather than just throwing it in out of nowhere...

Never said it's on the same level. I only said that learning a language is NOT a soooooooo complicated procedure that you need to explain with a "Just because I was too bored of thinking something based on logic" reasoning.

[Ettina]

Reading lips is a lot less effective than actually hearing speech, and not just because you have to look at them.

A lot of sounds look exactly the same on the lips. I've heard estimates that only about 30% of words are clearly distinguishable on the lips. The rest is filled in by context and process of elimination. Even very experienced lipreaders often misunderstand what people are saying, especially if they're saying something complicated.

It's easier to lipread if you've got acquired deafness, because then you at least know how speech should work. If you were born deaf, it's much harder - imagine trying to learn to lipread Chinese, without first learning Chinese by sound.

If they're taught to lipread and speak only, and not taught to sign, the usual result is serious language delay. Plus, they spend so much effort learning to lipread and speak that they tend not to have the opportunity for learning many other things, so they're behind in academic skills too.

If they're taught to sign first, they'll probably be a fluent signer and reasonably functional, but being able to lipread and speak will be hit or miss. Most signing Deaf can lipread a little, but not speak. Being able to actually carry on a conversation through speech is uncommon, and indicates someone who spent quite awhile studying how to do that.

[skypse]

Reading lips is a lot less effective than actually hearing speech, and not just because you have to look at them.

A lot of sounds look exactly the same on the lips. I've heard estimates that only about 30% of words are clearly distinguishable on the lips. The rest is filled in by context and process of elimination. Even very experienced lipreaders often misunderstand what people are saying, especially if they're saying something complicated.

It's easier to lipread if you've got acquired deafness, because then you at least know how speech should work. If you were born deaf, it's much harder - imagine trying to learn to lipread Chinese, without first learning Chinese by sound.
Thank you sir.




If they're taught to lipread and speak only, and not taught to sign, the usual result is serious language delay. Plus, they spend so much effort learning to lipread and speak that they tend not to have the opportunity for learning many other things, so they're behind in academic skills too.

If they're taught to sign first, they'll probably be a fluent signer and reasonably functional, but being able to lipread and speak will be hit or miss. Most signing Deaf can lipread a little, but not speak. Being able to actually carry on a conversation through speech is uncommon, and indicates someone who spent quite awhile studying how to do that.

What?!?!?! Really?!?!?! Screw that! Creating a whole story of how someone tought me to lipread and all that stuff seems very complicated. I will make another char.


Oh wait!!! I know!!!! A wizard put this knowledge in my head. Yeah that works! FCKING PERFECTION! God I'm so smart...

[georgie_leech]

Thank you sir.





What?!?!?! Really?!?!?! Screw that! Creating a whole story of how someone tought me to lipread and all that stuff seems very complicated. I will make another char.


Oh wait!!! I know!!!! A wizard put this knowledge in my head. Yeah that works! FCKING PERFECTION! God I'm so smart...

Or perhaps we'd rather spend our time focusing on other bits of the game rather than exploring a piece of roleplaying we're not interested in. For instance, it seems entirely possible that someone cares more about managing in present life, in cities and adventurer parties, than in exploring the details of how someone taught you to read lips.

[skypse]

Or perhaps we'd rather spend our time focusing on other bits of the game rather than exploring a piece of roleplaying we're not interested in. For instance, it seems entirely possible that someone cares more about managing in present life, in cities and adventurer parties, than in exploring the details of how someone taught you to read lips.

1st of all we made it clear that you can't be born with a curse (unless of course if a wizard did it) so this conersation is purely theoritical and off-topic.

Think ahead. That's my responce to you. Your past is who you are and always will determine who you want to be. If your past is unclear, then so is your future. If you want to focus more on managing present life and your current adventure that was given to you by the random city's mayor, so be it. You are no better than the nameless guard you found when you entered the city through the gate and asked him where the nearest inn is. Create a character sheet for that guard, give him a boost on point-buy and replace his "warrior" class levels for "fighter" class levels and you got your playable character. Who cares why he ended up as a guard in that city right? A wizard just spawned him there and he feels the unbeatable urge of protecting this city and following its rules.

There is no apparent reason why you can't use your background story as a RP tool. Your every little thing that your character has deflects on his personality, thoughts, beliefs. You got the Rich Parents trait not because you wanted to buy that cool masterwork item to get a bonus on attack rolls, but because your parents are some nobles from Magnimar who always wanted to become adventurers themselves but the stong family-oriented environment they grew up in, never allowed them to do so. Luckily for you, you where the second-born son of this family so with all the burden falling on your brother's shoulders you were able to follow your dream and go on an adventure with 1 of the caravans that travel through the trade routes every week.

I wrote that just on the top of my head. Imagine what someone can do if he spends 1-2 hours creating a character for himself. Just think of how many posibilities this gives you either on your campaign's downtime, or when you decide/are forced to visit Magnimar for any reason. It could even help you built a strong alliance with the city or form a strong bond with a cohort in case you want to get the leadership feat.


TL;DR You wanna be a nameless mercenary/guard/NPC with a character sheet or do you want to be someone who matters and has a history? Your choise.

[georgie_leech]

-snip-

That's certainly a valid way to play, but it's not the only way to play is all I'm saying. That is, your perspective is that you create a character with history and go from there. Another way to role play though is to say something along the lines of "I think it would be interesting to rp a character deaf from birth," and not worry about the specific details of who bullied him as youngster or what well meaning teacher helped him out or how his parents reacted to all of it. Sometimes, you just want to be deaf.

In other words, espousing your way as the only proper way to play comes across as rather elitist. It's fully possible to not be some nameless mercenary without examining in detail a character's entire history.

[skypse]

In other words, espousing your way as the only proper way to play comes across as rather elitist. It's fully possible to not be some nameless mercenary without examining in detail a character's entire history.

Agreed. However in the specific scenario, being deaf from birth is not just a small tree in the middle of the forest. It is the whole soil beneath the forest that the trees of your character's future will grow on.

[georgie_leech]

Agreed. However in the specific scenario, being deaf from birth is not just a small tree in the middle of the forest. It is the whole soil beneath the forest that the trees of your character's future will grow on.

Not necessarily. "I want to make a deaf character!" "Alright, what made him deaf?" "I don't know, from birth? I don't really care about the past, I just want to play a deaf character."

[skypse]

Not necessarily. "I want to make a deaf character!" "Alright, what made him deaf?" "I don't know, from birth? I don't really care about the past, I just want to play a deaf character."

Still feels like an empty vessel that just spawned somewhere. However I withdraw for the sake of keeping the original post clear from more spam. :)