Durkon's/Durkola's holy symbol

[Edhelras]

I realized now that when Durkon was turned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html) into a vampire, his holy symbol changed from gold-green to gold-black.
At the art upgrade, the holy symbol was unchanged from the old (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) into the new (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html) style.

What does this change of holy symbol design imply? Is there some kind of jewel in a gold frame - a green one which is now turned black? Is this easily visible to the others, and if so: Why haven't they commented on it?

After all, the exact shape of holy symbols has been commented on previously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html), even in the old art style.

Also, I wonder how the holy symbol Durkola now is carrying would performed if exposed to Detect Evil or other divination spells. For instance, if Durkola meets a Paladin, or a divining guy - would he be exposed? Other than exposing him as a vampire (Evil enough in itself)?

[Keltest]

I suspect its the same as Durkon's armor: cosmetic and unimportant to its function. While "Detect Evil" will ping Durkon if he were to be included in the casting area, that would be because he is evil and a vampire, not because of his holy symbol.

[Edhelras]

I noticed now that his entire armor also got darker when he became a vampire.
However, there is something more with the amulet, that turned from green to black.

I feel there is something here... What about a Spot check from Haley?

[Keltest]

I noticed now that his entire armor also got darker when he became a vampire.
However, there is something more with the amulet, that turned from green to black.

I feel there is something here... What about a Spot check from Haley?

What about it? I don't know what youre getting at here. Ok, so his amulet changed color. So did the rest of him and his possessions he was wearing at the time. In order for there to be significance, there needs to be an anomaly, and so far there isn't.

[Edhelras]

Time will show,then.
But as far as I understand it, a holy symbol is not just any random object, it's also a real symbol of the deity. Does Durkola's symbol now represent Thor, or does it represent Hel?
In Cormyr, the Tearing of the Weave SPOILER ALERT!

the false priests of Mystra carry "discs of secrets", that are concealed symbols of Shar (or double-crossing ones of Cyric). In that case, there was a concrete point that the clerics needed a true symbol of their deity in order to function.

I cannot see why this shouldn't apply to Durkola as well? And thusly, that the HPoH needs to conceal the fact that he's now worshipping Hel? And then it would be only a matter of encountering someone with sufficient Knowledge:religion to identify it as not-Thor, or even as a symbol of Hel (usually a DC10 or DC15 check).
The alternative is that the HPoH carries another symbol, dedicated to Hel, which we haven't seen yet.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I feel that the change is just reflective of how he is now a vampire; that's how he will spin it, at least. He's already changed in so many other ways that this one isn't as important.

[Keltest]

Time will show,then.
But as far as I understand it, a holy symbol is not just any random object, it's also a real symbol of the deity. Does Durkola's symbol now represent Thor, or does it represent Hel?
In Cormyr, the Tearing of the Weave SPOILER ALERT!

the false priests of Mystra carry "discs of secrets", that are concealed symbols of Shar (or double-crossing ones of Cyric). In that case, there was a concrete point that the clerics needed a true symbol of their deity in order to function.

I cannot see why this shouldn't apply to Durkola as well? And thusly, that the HPoH needs to conceal the fact that he's now worshipping Hel? And then it would be only a matter of encountering someone with sufficient Knowledge:religion to identify it as not-Thor, or even as a symbol of Hel (usually a DC10 or DC15 check).
The alternative is that the HPoH carries another symbol, dedicated to Hel, which we haven't seen yet.

As his amulet is identical to every other holy symbol we see (except Redcloak's while being used as a phylactery, and his backup symbol which is visibly different) I think it is safe to conclude that there holy symbols do not need to appear in specific ways in order to function.

[Peelee]

Time will show,then.
But as far as I understand it, a holy symbol is not just any random object, it's also a real symbol of the deity. Does Durkola's symbol now represent Thor, or does it represent Hel?
In Cormyr, the Tearing of the Weave SPOILER ALERT!

the false priests of Mystra carry "discs of secrets", that are concealed symbols of Shar (or double-crossing ones of Cyric). In that case, there was a concrete point that the clerics needed a true symbol of their deity in order to function.

I cannot see why this shouldn't apply to Durkola as well? And thusly, that the HPoH needs to conceal the fact that he's now worshipping Hel? And then it would be only a matter of encountering someone with sufficient Knowledge:religion to identify it as not-Thor, or even as a symbol of Hel (usually a DC10 or DC15 check).
The alternative is that the HPoH carries another symbol, dedicated to Hel, which we haven't seen yet.


I could not give one good goddamn what the rules say about anything. There are no mistakes, because there are no rules. NONE. No, not even that one.

It appears not everyone agrees with your analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html).

[Edhelras]

As his amulet is identical to every other holy symbol we see (except Redcloak's while being used as a phylactery, and his backup symbol which is visibly different) I think it is safe to conclude that there holy symbols do not need to appear in specific ways in order to function.

Or, given that it actually was of importance, when RCs holy symbol looked different, and given that Durkola's unholy symbol actually does look different (color-wise) from Durkon's, we may suggest that a change of appearance actually has some importance for how these symbols function, or their role in the story.

Anyway, I accept that this may be purely a matter of aesthetics, and not intended to serve some higher purpose.

What is left, then, is for the rules-lawyers to keep insisting that Durkola would need to carry an unholy symbol of Hel, if he is to use her as his source of spellscasting. If that symbol he carries now is simply a darkened version of the original symbol of Thor (as with his darkened armor), then he must have a symbol of Hel tucked away somewhere.

[factotum]

Or, given that it actually was of importance, when RCs holy symbol looked different

Redcloak was still worshipping the Dark One even when he was using his other holy symbol, so it's clear that the actual shape or appearance of the things is no indication of what god the wearer worships. Other than that the shape of the symbol had no importance whatsoever, so not sure why you're saying it did?

[CrispyCriminal]

Speaking of spot checks, up close the uncorrupted holy symbol is blue. For the longest time I thought it was green...now I can only think of eyes.

[Keltest]

Speaking of spot checks, up close the uncorrupted holy symbol is blue. For the longest time I thought it was green...now I can only think of eyes.

I think its turquoise actually, just from eyeballing it. Though im sure someone can take a computer sample of it and objectively say it is XXX color.

[Peelee]

I think its turquoise actually, just from eyeballing it. Though im sure someone can take a computer sample of it and objectively say it is XXX color.

Speaking from a colorblind perspective, it seems as if sometimes people make up colors and everyone just goes with it. "Purple-orange? No, that's totally turqundy. Lovely shade, too."

[Keltest]

Speaking from a colorblind perspective, it seems as if sometimes people make up colors and everyone just goes with it. "Purple-orange? No, that's totally turqundy. Lovely shade, too."

People are inexplicably fascinated by my colorblindness, as if I should be referring to the grass as red, and blood as green all the time. It doesn't work like that people!

[factotum]

I thought Peelee was saying that *he* is colourblind, not referring to your similar problem? :smallconfused:

[Peelee]

I thought Peelee was saying that *he* is colourblind, not referring to your similar problem? :smallconfused:

I was. Then he shared his own experiences, which i commiserate with (for instance, when someone discovers I'm colorblind for the first time, their favorite game becomes, "what color is this?" - a fact that I assure you all others with this affliction share).

Hinjo represent, yo.

Also, after either explaining the the type of colorblindness and/or five "what color is this" questions, the answer is always grey.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Speaking of spot checks, up close the uncorrupted holy symbol is blue. For the longest time I thought it was green...now I can only think of eyes.

Now see, to me this says 'sky blue', since Thor is a storm deity.

[Gusion]

I cannot see why this shouldn't apply to Durkola as well? And thusly, that the HPoH needs to conceal the fact that he's now worshipping Hel? And then it would be only a matter of encountering someone with sufficient Knowledge:religion to identify it as not-Thor, or even as a symbol of Hel (usually a DC10 or DC15 check).
The alternative is that the HPoH carries another symbol, dedicated to Hel, which we haven't seen yet.

I generally agree with you here, except I think the DC would be significantly higher. Recall that Durkula is the *only* follower of Hel on the planet. Her holy symbol is not going to be well known even among clerics. No doubt it is in some ancient text somewhere, but likely not something taught to your average cleric. I'm thinking DC 75.

Regarding the question if it would trigger on detect evil... I think it depends. Canon is, I believe, silent on the subject. So this is a house rule we used: Inherently, an unused clerical holy symbol doesn't react. It does react, however, after channeling the power of the cleric's god. That would make it trigger detect good/evil equal to the rounds applied in the detect magic spell. Thus it fades over time. Also, if it is a neutral god than nothing is going to pop. Again, this was just a house rule, but one I liked.