Chargeless Leap Attack?

[Kevingway]

I know that the text of Leap Attack mentions charging, but it almost seems like fluff when you get into what Leap Attack actually says: jump 10 ft., land adjacent to a target, Power Attack does more damage. The charge adjustments aren't included, which leads me to believe that you could use Leap Attack without charging. Is that possible?

I ask because I'm trying to build a character whose movement is reliant on Sudden Leap from Tome of Battle. I suppose I should also ask, would it be possible to combine a charge with this maneuver and have it remain a swift action? (Most likely not.)

[Namfuak]

Since you are rolling a charge into a jump, it seems fine to me that if you can jump more quickly you could combine the two. However, it has to follow the rules of a charge for it to work, and sudden leap says you move as far as your check result would allow, you don't get to choose how far it is. So, unless you rolled very luckily, you would usually either over or undershoot your opponent and not be in the closest available square as a charge requires.

[Darrin]

The charge adjustments aren't included, which leads me to believe that you could use Leap Attack without charging. Is that possible?


Based on this:

"This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over."

I'd have to say that it looks like the designers intended the charge to be compulsory. Or rather, even if you can trigger the effect of the feat without a charge, the text says you must still follow all of the rules for a charge... at which point, why wouldn't you want the benefits along with the drawbacks.



I ask because I'm trying to build a character whose movement is reliant on Sudden Leap from Tome of Battle. I suppose I should also ask, would it be possible to combine a charge with this maneuver and have it remain a swift action? (Most likely not.)

I think you can do this if you combine Sudden Leap/Leap Attack with Mantis Leap (from Sword & Fist), which changes any movement that involves a normal Jump check into a charge attack. The downside is it requires 7 levels of Fail.

Roof-Jumper (Cityscape) or Battle Jump (Unapproachable East) might also work, but the latter in particular may carry a certain aroma of dubiousness. It's not entirely clear if leaping above your opponent's head would allow you to turn the subsequent fall into a charge, or at least there are many DMs out there that would call "shenanigans" on this sort of thing.

[Uncle Pine]

Unfortunately you can't:

You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.
Leap Attack doesn't simply mention the charge special action as part of fluff. It requires you to make a charge. This means that you won't be able to Leap Attack as a swift action.

You mentioned you'd like to relay on Sudden Leap for movement: in case this decision is simply keyed to the intention of moving and making a full attack in the same round you might be interested in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement) thread by Person_Man.

EDIT: Swordsage'd/Warblade'd by Darrin.

[ArqArturo]

What about a charging raptoran in mid-flight, can the raptoran jump?.

[Necroticplague]

Roof-Jumper (Cityscape) or Battle Jump (Unapproachable East) might also work, but the latter in particular may carry a certain aroma of dubiousness. It's not entirely clear if leaping above your opponent's head would allow you to turn the subsequent fall into a charge, or at least there are many DMs out there that would call "shenanigans" on this sort of thing.

Most common interpretation Battle Jump I've seen is that it replaces all the restrictions on charges with the need to jump on them. Less powerful, but still useful, since it kinda makes it lesser stagger or greater twisted charge.

[Denver]

Complete Adventurer, page 110
LEAP ATTACK
You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack. Prerequisites: Jump 8 ranks, Power Attack.
Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over

I may be incorrect - and have been many times - but the feat does not say you need to make a charge, only that you must follow all the normal rules for making a charge and jump - if a charge or jump check are made.

The conditional part of the feat only requires a ten foot horizontal leap to be made, and for the leap to terminate the leap in a square adjacent to an enemy. Granted, the easier way to leap ten feet is to charge and then jump. But if you have the Mountain Movement racial trait, or other ways to make jumping distances easier without previous movement, it would seem to allow for this feat to activate...

[Curmudgeon]

However, it has to follow the rules of a charge for it to work, and sudden leap says you move as far as your check result would allow, you don't get to choose how far it is.

You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result. A Jump check works like every other unopposed skill check* in D&D 3.5, which requires you to roll against a specific DC and either succeed or fail. There's no provision for rolling first, then retroactively assigning the DC to match your roll. So the Jump check for Sudden Leap still requires you to set a DC beforehand and move the distance determined by your check result: either no distance (failure) or the distance corresponding to the DC.

This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over.
You still have to follow all the rules for making a Charge (modified by Leap Attack), and that's a special full-round action. There's no getting out of that action requirement.

* - Note that Speak Language is just weird (doesn’t work like other skills) because it doesn't have any checks.

[Denver]

You still have to follow all the rules for making a Charge (modified by Leap Attack), and that's a special full-round action. There's no getting out of that action requirement.

I absolutely concur that if a Charge is made, it follows all the normal rules for charge. But the feat does not specify that the action Charge has to be taken, just that it follows all of the normal rules of Charge, when a Charge is taken. The "attack" has to follow the rules for Charge and for Jump, not that any necessary Charge is called for.

Without offering too much supposition, I would posit that the last clause in Leap Attack is not compelling the necessity of a specific Jump roll* or Charge, but rather stating that the feat itself does nothing to modify the Jump or the Charge - those actions still "follow all the normal rules."

Am I missing something in the activation of this feat?

*: Completing this feat without making a roll for Jump seems rather unlikely, but people can be clever and find all kinds of synergistic combinations or conditions.

[Zombimode]

I don't see much of an ambiguity. The charge is required.


Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent.

This is what the feat enables you to do. This is also something you can't normally do.


If you cover at least ten feet of horizontal distance with your jump...

What makes you think this second sentence has no connection to the first?

[Curmudgeon]

I absolutely concur that if a Charge is made, it follows all the normal rules for charge. But the feat does not specify that the action Charge has to be taken, just that it follows all of the normal rules of Charge, when a Charge is taken.
There is no distinction.
Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Outside of the Combat chapter specification of this special full-round action, D&D doesn't have any definition of what charging involves.

[Denver]

What makes you think this second sentence has no connection to the first?

"You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack."

Because being able to combine a charge with a long jump is something anyone can do. In my interpretation, the feat intends for that combination of Charge ("powerful charge") and Jump ("mighty leap") to be the flavor mechanic by which the damage is multiplied ("devastating attack").

However, the specific wording of the feat only requires a Jump that moves at least ten feet horizontally and to terminate the jump in a square adjacent to an opponent. It would seem that someone could attempt to make a standing broad jump to activate the feat.

I agree that the intention of the feat is to call for Charge and Jump, definitely. But given the strict wording, I think that a character fighting on a storm-wracked boat could make a vertical leap to avoid some kind of peril, and provided the vessel moved under the character laterally by ten feet, and the character then landed in a square occupied by an opponent, the feat could be activated.
(Validated by the idea that all frames of reference for movement are equally acceptable, provided the referent remains the constant focus of the relation.)


There is no distinction.
Outside of the Combat chapter specification of this special full-round action, D&D doesn't have any definition of what charging involves.

Oh, I understand what Charge is. I am now seeking a clarification of whether this feat explicitly states that a Charge is required. As far as I can tell, it does not seem to be the case. The feat just seems to clarify that when (conditional antecedent) either the Jump or Charge actions are taken, they follow (conditional consequent) the normal rules for those actions. A conditional statement does not require that the antecedent take place, but says what happens should that antecedent take place. In this case, when a Jump or Charge action is taken during this feat, they occur as normal.

Also, I am not just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, so if we just appear to fundamentally disagree on what the feat calls for, then that will just be that. :smallsmile:

[torrasque666]

Leap Attack modifies the Charge action. It must follow all the rules as Charge and Jump, end of statement. Charge's rules specify that it must be made as a full-round action, unless somehow limited to either a Move or Standard action. Leap Attack does not change this. Sudden Leap is movement as a swift action, and does not change this.

And you're wrong about anyone being able to combine a Jump with a Charge. Charge is a full-round action, while Jump checks are made during movement actions. Despite involving movement, it is not a movement action.

[Zombimode]

However, the specific wording of the feat only requires a Jump that moves at least ten feet horizontally and to terminate the jump in a square adjacent to an opponent. It would seem that someone could attempt to make a standing broad jump to activate the feat.

Uhm, no. The charge is specifically mentioned in the feat description. It's the first sentence after the "Benefits" mark. Did you miss that sentence?

The feat description describes that the feat allows you to perform a combined charge + jump. After that it goes into detail to what additional effects will happen if the jump satisfies certain conditions.

[Curmudgeon]

And you're wrong about anyone being able to combine a Jump with a Charge. Charge is a full-round action, while Jump checks are made during movement actions. Despite involving movement, it is not a movement action.
D&D has move actions (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_moveaction&alpha=M), but there is no special term for "movement action". It's true that the most common use of Jump is during a move action, but you can Jump as part of your movement, i.e., with any action which moves you to another square. You can even make Jump checks for non-action movement, such as falling. As to your specific point, there's a rule which directly contradicts you:
Jumping during a Charge
You can make a long jump to avoid an obstacle as part of a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump.

[torrasque666]

That does specify to avoid an obstacle though. Still doesn't let you just do a jump when you have a smooth, clear path.

[Curmudgeon]

That does specify to avoid an obstacle though. Still doesn't let you just do a jump when you have a smooth, clear path.
You're jumping :smallwink: to a conclusion there. You can Jump to avoid an obstacle. You can also Jump when there's no obstacle. (If you want to treat this as a limiting specification rather than the example it is, you could also Jump when there is an obstacle of mental, moral, philosophical, or some other nature. After all, the rule doesn't specify avoiding a physical obstacle.)

[Denver]

By moving ten feet in one direction, unobstructed, one has already Charged anyway. It says nothing about charging along the ground. So, by making a ten foot jump from a standstill, a character satisfies both Jumping and Charging, meaning that one can definitely make a "Charge-less" Leap Attack, provided that the jump moves ten feet, it satisfies the Charge, and satisfies the Feat.



Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated oppo- nent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles).

(snip)

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round)

[torrasque666]

You can move 10 feet and not charge, but to charge you HAVE to move at least 10 feet. Simply moving 10 feet does not a charge make. If you don't make a Charge action(which is always a full-round unless specifically modified to be otherwise) you don't charge. Or are all those ways people use to activate Skirmish(like Travel Devotion) considered to be Charging?

[Denver]

I just mean the discussion about whether the feat in question needs the user to be running (i.e. "Charging") before jumping to activate the feat - but it is irrelevant. If one calls a charge and jumps ten feet, they have charged, and they have jumped. The feat is activated.

[torrasque666]

Yes, no one is debating that. However, one cannot Charge in combination with Sudden Leap as Leap Attack states that it must follow all the rules of a Charge, rules which unless specifically modified states that a Charge is a full-round action.

Thus, you cannot use the movement provided by Sudden Leap(a swift action) to substitute for the movement required of a Charge(full-round)






EDIT: We have been arguing in circles haven't we?

[Denver]

EDIT: We have been arguing in circles haven't we?

Indeed, we have. Agree to disagree.