How do I justify this?

[Inevitability]

As many of you know without doubt, the Death domain was recently released. I immediately got the idea for a LN dwarf cleric of Kelemvor, which is nice and well, but I ran into one big problem.

How do I justify the fact that my LN 'I hate undead' cleric is walking around with Animate Dead in his pocket for 3/4th of his career? Even if he isn't using it, he still has the ability to use it all the time.

Should I ask my DM to swap it with another necromancy spell, like Speak with Dead? Or is there a justification for this I didn't see?

[Ferrin33]

As many of you know without doubt, the Death domain was recently released. I immediately got the idea for a LN dwarf cleric of Kelemvor, which is nice and well, but I ran into one big problem.

How do I justify the fact that my LN 'I hate undead' cleric is walking around with Animate Dead in his pocket for 3/4th of his career? Even if he isn't using it, he still has the ability to use it all the time.

Should I ask my DM to swap it with another necromancy spell, like Speak with Dead? Or is there a justification for this I didn't see?

I'd say ask to exchange it for Speak with Dead as it doesn't mesh with your concept at all. Otherwise you might want to just take the hit or pick a different domain.

[Daishain]

I'd go ahead and ask for a spell swap, but you could think of it this way, your understanding of death grants you the knowledge of creating undead.

Your knowledge of the subject is just there, and does not necessarily reflect on your choice of how to use it.

[Inevitability]

I'd go ahead and ask for a spell swap, but you could think of it this way, your understanding of death grants you the knowledge of creating undead.

Your knowledge of the subject is just there, and does not necessarily reflect on your choice of how to use it.

The problem is: Kelemvor is against undead. Full stop. Things that aren't dead, alive, or constructed are abominations and have to be destroyed. Why'd he give his worshipper knowledge of creating undead?

[JAL_1138]

I'd go ahead and ask for a spell swap, but you could think of it this way, your understanding of death grants you the knowledge of creating undead.

Your knowledge of the subject is just there, and does not necessarily reflect on your choice of how to use it.

This. Also, you know how your enemy works--you don't just take down undead, you take down those who make them, and you know the spell a necromancer casts to create them. You don't use it, but by having the spell, you know what components are needed, what incantations must be spoken, and the limits of a necromancer's control over his/her undead servants. You might also ask your DM if your understanding of the spell allows you to perform funerary rites and corpse-disposal in a way that negates the ability of another caster to use Animate Dead on them.

EDIT: Agreed with Daishain in the next post. Think of it this way--a forensic examiner knows how to kill someone even if she's a dedicated pacifist, because her job consists of figuring out how people got killed. Mechanically, a spell swap would be better since you could use it, but thematically, *knowing* Animate Dead fits pretty well for an exterminator of the undead and necromancers.

[Daishain]

The problem is: Kelemvor is against undead. Full stop. Things that aren't dead, alive, or constructed are abominations and have to be destroyed. Why'd he give his worshipper knowledge of creating undead?
Because the knowledge involved in creating something and the knowledge required to effectively destroy something are very often intrinsically linked.

Almost any idiot can collapse a building with the right tools, but if you want to do it safely and with a minimum of effort, you ask a structural engineer, preferably the one who designed it, for advice.

Likewise, almost any idiot can bash the skull of an undead in. But if you want a real shot at unraveling what holds them together, you need to know how it works.

[MaxWilson]

Look guys, all clerics can cast Animate Dead, so they all have the knowledge. I think what the OP is pointing out is that it's kind of weird for Kelemvor's clerics to always have it prepared. And it is. I would say though that this is more the DM's problem than the player's problem, except inasmuch as the player resents not getting a usable spell in its place. But it's hardly the only unusable bonus spell in the spell lists.

[silveralen]

Domain spells are typically those intrinsically linked with the god in question, or at least an aspect of him. In this case, yeah not really appropriate. Since these archetypes technically require DM permission to use regardless, might as well bring it up.

[MeeposFire]

Kelemvor is the exception among most deities of the dead (certainly in FR) that specifically hates undead. That said it probably should be given an exception for its spell. One option is to replace a spell with a spell of the same level that is thematic. Another option is to keep the spell, give it a different name, and relfavor it to something that works for Kelemvor. For instance what if the spell called upon minor servants of Kelemvor to fight for you. These servants would have the same stats (with minor changes as needed or desired) as the animated dead zombies and skeletons but they are not undead. These servants disappear after the spell is over or when you control too many.

[Morukai]

Because the knowledge involved in creating something and the knowledge required to effectively destroy something are very often intrinsically linked.

Almost any idiot can collapse a building with the right tools, but if you want to do it safely and with a minimum of effort, you ask a structural engineer, preferably the one who designed it, for advice.

Likewise, almost any idiot can bash the skull of an undead in. But if you want a real shot at unraveling what holds them together, you need to know how it works.

Sure, that sounds sexy and all, but there's no mechanical advantage for a cleric of Kelemvor in having that knowledge. I vote for a swap.

[JAL_1138]

It could fit thematically to *know it*, like I said before, but given that it's theoretically available to most/all clerics anyway as MaxWilson pointed out (must keep reminding myself that 5e domain clerics != specialty priests), if I were DM'ing I'd probably not saddle a player with a permanently-prepared spell they can never cast without violating their alignment or religion, thus losing out a facet of their domain feature. If the player wanted to swap it out I'd say go for it (actually, any time a player wanted to swap out Animate Dead I'd immediately say go for it, to avoid the minionmancy headache). But if the DM doesn't allow it, that's where the justification comes in--if you're stuck with it, it can still make a bit of sense.

[Invader]

The problem is: Kelemvor is against undead. Full stop. Things that aren't dead, alive, or constructed are abominations and have to be destroyed. Why'd he give his worshipper knowledge of creating undead?

Isn't free will one of the basic tenets of most religion?

If the christian (god) has a set of commandments he wants everyone to follow why wouldn't he just hardware them that way instead of giving them the choice?

Not that I'm advocating that it makes sense in this situation, I second or third swapping it out in this instance.

[Gnomes2169]

The problem is: Kelemvor is against undead. Full stop. Things that aren't dead, alive, or constructed are abominations and have to be destroyed. Why'd he give his worshipper knowledge of creating undead?

Kelevmor is also a cunning little bugger with a strong sense of irony and poetic justice, who has been known to blackmail and coerce necromancers, ghosts, vampires and liches into doing what he wants, and he does trust his clerics enough to let them use undead to hunt down and destroy undead (with the implicit implication that they will destroy their minions the moment their quarry is... removed). He would definitely still frown on it, but he does not go full on Raven Queen with his crusade (one of the reasons why Kelevmor is much, much smarter than her, with a second one being that he does not seek the deaths of people who were resurrected. That one is why the Raven Queen and her followers are not liked).

So a death cleric of Kelevmor is okay with having an animate dead spell (after all, it's the greatest tool of their enemy, why not use it against them?), but they can only use it if the situation honestly calls for it. Or, as everyone else is suggesting, you can just replace it without to much hastle.

[MeeposFire]

Kelevmor is also a cunning little bugger with a strong sense of irony and poetic justice, who has been known to blackmail and coerce necromancers, ghosts, vampires and liches into doing what he wants, and he does trust his clerics enough to let them use undead to hunt down and destroy undead (with the implicit implication that they will destroy their minions the moment their quarry is... removed). He would definitely still frown on it, but he does not go full on Raven Queen with his crusade (one of the reasons why Kelevmor is much, much smarter than her, with a second one being that he does not seek the deaths of people who were resurrected. That one is why the Raven Queen and her followers are not liked).

So a death cleric of Kelevmor is okay with having an animate dead spell (after all, it's the greatest tool of their enemy, why not use it against them?), but they can only use it if the situation honestly calls for it. Or, as everyone else is suggesting, you can just replace it without to much hastle.

Hmm everything I have found so far says he holds undead with utmost contempt and that while he grants the power to command the undead these commands are for sending them back to their graves to sleep. It does make an exception for commanding undead in dire situations but I have yet to see anything that he would be OK with creating new undead. By and large he wants them destroyed/put back to sleep as quickly as possible.

Do we have any actual evidence of him being OK with creating undead and even if so do we really want to have an entire spell dedicated to something that a cleric of this type would virtually never use by principle?

[MeeposFire]

Just found something very helpful to the cause. I found an old 2e spell for Doom Guides (2e specialty priests of Kelemvor) and they have a spell called "Dead March".

Oddly it animates dead bodies but does not make them undead. They cannot be turned or commanded with undead related abilities because they are not actually undead. The spell originally just made the bodies float where you direct them (says they have no hostile intent in the original description) but I think you could tweak it so that it works more like animate dead.

This is an actual Doom Guide spell so I think this could be a thematic variant for your character to cast for animate dead.

[Inevitability]

I think I'll go with asking my DM to swap it with SwD. Thanks for your ideas, everyone!