So, two almighty wizards have to kill each other...

[.Zero]

I was wandering about how would a fight run in a high level, high power game between two opposing Paranoid Wizards.

The two mages have to kill each other, but one doesn't know who the other is or where is he located. All they know is that there's a really powerful spellcaster (at least as powerful as themselves) and they must kill him.

How would this happen? Is it really true that two opposing Paranoid Wizards can't kill each other?

I can't really figure how such a scenario will develop, so what do you think?

It would be really great if you could help me to figure out this fight at different optimization levels, the lower being something like "the two mages take feats like Iron Will just because they need a higher will save", and the higher is something like "the two mages take Iron Will from the Othyug Hole for qualifying for Incantatrix etc. and live in their demiplane sanctum protected by Shadesteel Golems PAO'd into the bricks that compose their castel's walls, floor and ceiling."

So how will this fight happen?

Be careful: none of the mages uses infinite loops to kill the other. Infinite loops are chain-gating solars, infinite wishes, infinite wealth, infinite clones from Body Outside Body with supernatural spells or that manifest powers, infinite leadership shenanigans etc, well, you got my point. No infinite spells known or cast and no infinite save DCs, also, no 3rd party material and no irresistible spell.

I could continue to list banned things forever, bit let's see what you think about it now.

[SinsI]

Well, one of them can arm and sponsor a Hero party, designating the other as BBEG.

[Jormengand]

Low-OP wizards take each other out by being the first to land a Meteor Swarm for more damage than the other guy has hit points.

High-OP wizards fight using cloned astrally projected ice assassin aleaxes of ice assassin clone astral projection simulacrum astral projection illusion aleax ice assassins, so they never so much as see each other, let alone kill each other. They're almost certainly in their own demiplane in their own demiplane, guarded by half-dragon draconic dragons with 80th-level spellcasting apiece.

[Divide by Zero]

Magical defenses are generally more encompassing than magical offenses. Barring time travel and other shenanigans that would quickly become too complicated for even an Int 80 character to unravel, two sufficiently paranoid wizards will never be able to kill each other. I assume they send their simulacra to play chess to determine the outcome of such a dispute.

[Honest Tiefling]

So...How did they find out the other guy wants to kill them? I imagine they would want to exploit that for tips and hints. I also second the idea that they might hire adventurers, or I dunno, go to their local friendly church of whatever or see if they have any wizard buddies.

I also imagine some might search for friends on other planes and talk to a Solar about this creepy guy that's apparently spying on them and planning on killing them. I imagine the death of an archmage might interest somebody, somewhere.

[atemu1234]

There would be wheels within wheels, and fires within fires.

You have to realize that when it comes to high-to-epic level wizards, they are smarter than you and I. They would expect hundreds of outcomes, and spend their spare time divining other possible solutions. It'd be like two chess masters playing one another, and the board is the multiverse. They'd quite possibly sit down for tea together, each with enough info to figure out what's going on, use telepathy to communicate, and in twenty seconds it would be checkmate.

Or, they could hide out in castles. For aeons, each attempting to figure out how to kill each other. Like dragons.

[YossarianLives]

Hiring a adventuring party would work because a DM would never send their players on a adventure that could not be completed.

[Oko and Qailee]

"Stronghold" building puts the ball far in the defenders court. Making areas that are impossible to teleport to, impossible to scry, impossible to walk to, etc. Two paranoid high level wizards will always have way too many defenses to ever be overcome by the other equivalent wizards offenses.

[OldTrees1]

They both know the only hope for them to win is to immediate start an IndyPloy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndyPloy) if they delay too long it becomes a game of XanatosSpeedChess (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess) (from information gathering). After enough delay the game becomes an inevitable stalemate unless one side is vastly superior in strength.

^This becomes more and more accurate the closer you get to allowing infinite.

[Judge_Worm]

The older of the two wizards allows themselves to be killed in the process of becoming a demilich.

[Kane0]

In order to breach existing defenses of your opposing mage you have to systematically target each defense that you do and do not know about in short succession, while stopping him from recreating them or counterattacking you. As you can imagine this takes a lot of planning, effort and resources but you are also racing your opponent as they attempt to do the same to you.

At most an attack on an enemy mage should take a minute. Anything more than that and either this isnt a suffuciently high-stakes encounter or you have left yourself wide open for unforseen consequences.

If you have the time and inclination, the character Mostin in Tales of Wyre (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre) is an epic level mage that has had these sorts of encounters with similarly high level opponents. He is a good example to get you started on how to go about killing off a high level mage (examples of both with and without them knowing and ready).

Here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre/page2&p=1029476&viewfull=1#post1029476) is a good bit of it.
Here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre/page5&p=1029606&viewfull=1#post1029606)is attempt 3 to kill Feezuu (second attempt killed a clone)

Edit: Mind you, Mostin is only moderately optimised. He uses blast spells and does not make much use of contingencies, permanency or the like. Neither does he employ particularly powerful spells like disjunction, though he uses gate regularly.
If you wanted to go to the extreme then your average high level mage will be nigh indestructible on his home turf, knowing or not of your intent. Spells required for gathering information, getting into striking distance and felling an opponent are simply not potent enough to deal with the available magics to defend oneself, or the amount of expenditure involved will leave you so dangerously low on resources that it is not worth the risk, using expendable doubles or no.

[Emperor Tippy]

Killing an ECL 20 wizard that is played competently is the work of an entire campaign. Not session or even story arc but entire campaign.

The list of defenses starts with little things like outright total immunity to death, continues on into total immunity to divination, and ends at ripping time new orifices as you and your opponent fight a full on time war.

[OldTrees1]

Killing an ECL 20 wizard that is played competently is the work of an entire campaign. Not session or even story arc but entire campaign.

The list of defenses starts with little things like outright total immunity to death, continues on into total immunity to divination, and ends at ripping time new orifices as you and your opponent fight a full on time war.

Wouldn't a competent ECL 20 wizard(at that optimization level) also have stockpiles of ways to pierce defenses?

I honestly do think there is a case for the WizardA to need to move fast enough that the other WizardB is unable to pierce WizardA's anti-Divination defense thoroughly enough to prepare in time for the defense that the WizardA is prepared to bypass/pierce.

If WizardA moves fast enough they get to use Concentrated Offense against Passive Defense before the defending WizardB is able to construct a Concentrated Defense on that front.

[Inevitability]

Teleport Through Time (or, when not prepared, persisted extended time stop during which you prepare it). 'Nuff said.

High-level D&D is rocket tag, even when you have defenses so potent they can block the attacks of several greater gods working together.

[Kane0]

Also dont forget other ways of neutralizing your opponent. Trapping, binding or even Feebleminding are all valid ways of eliminating an enemy mage, and each circumvent and are blocked by different spells. Getting stuck in a temporal stasis is different to being subject to Power Word: Kill, much like Flesh to Stone differs from Phantasmal Killer. Each one foils and is foiled differently, can you imagine keeping track of all that?

[icefractal]

I feel like for the purpose of having a struggle that our brains are capable of comprehending, Teleport through Time should be out of the picture.

Also, I would say that the previously mentioned "Every brick in the castle is an Ice Assassin" thing falls into the NI-loop category, unless you're actually paying the cost of those things - in which case you probably don't have a whole castle made of them. If you allow that kind of thing, then the battle becomes to arbitrarily large armies of arbitrarily powerful creatures fighting each-other, and there's really not much to say about it.

With those aside - I feel like defense has the advantage here. Wish can only bring 1 creature / level, and that's a limit that the defending side doesn't have. Also, there's a lot of non-mobile spells that can be already active on the defending side.

[ace rooster]

Teleport Through Time (or, when not prepared, persisted extended time stop during which you prepare it). 'Nuff said.

High-level D&D is rocket tag, even when you have defenses so potent they can block the attacks of several greater gods working together.

Yes and no. Put two high level characters in a room and you have rocket tag, but between two wizards this is endgame, with the most effective defenses already bypassed. The opening is getting enough information to even know how to get more information, and the middle game is finding a weakness in the defenses that can be exploited. Given that the first line of 'real' defenses (As opposed to misinformation and divination blocking) will probably prevent you getting within a mile of the target, and there is a decent chance that the target is a honeytrap, getting to a position to fire your 'rocket' is the tricky bit.

Also, where is teleport through time from? It is not on dndtools.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Killing an ECL 20 wizard that is played competently is the work of an entire campaign.

1) I Time Stop so I am undetectable and nobody/nothing else can take actions/reactions to me.

2) I Wish myself next to my greatest enemy.

3) I apply 100+ doses of contact poison by simply breaking a big bottle of poison against his immobile form.

4) I break a bottle on him containing a pebble with antimagic aura cast on it so the just-released AMF covers his space.

5) I Wish myself away.

6) Time resumes. He dies with no possibility of spells/contingencies being cast or triggerred.




OK, there ARE ways to prevent that but they only work for brief periods of time and are expensive OR require the wizard being cooped up in an antimagicked fortress permanently.

[heavyfuel]

1) I Time Stop so I am undetectable and nobody/nothing else can take actions/reactions to me.

2) I Wish myself next to my greatest enemy.

3) I apply 100+ doses of contact poison by simply breaking a big bottle of poison against his immobile form.

4) I break a bottle on him containing a pebble with antimagic aura cast on it so the just-released AMF covers his space.

5) I Wish myself away.

6) Time resumes. He dies with no possibility of spells/contingencies being cast or triggerred.




OK, there ARE ways to prevent that but they only work for brief periods of time and are expensive OR require the wizard being cooped up in an antimagicked fortress permanently.

You know, unless he has a Persisted Selective AMF, in which case you'll just be standing there without spells while he's at full power. If you have one too, now it's a question of "who wins the initiative"

[The Great Wyrm]

Mind Rape / Love's Pain?

[ace rooster]

1) I Time Stop so I am undetectable and nobody/nothing else can take actions/reactions to me.

2) I Wish myself next to my greatest enemy.

3) I apply 100+ doses of contact poison by simply breaking a big bottle of poison against his immobile form.

4) I break a bottle on him containing a pebble with antimagic aura cast on it so the just-released AMF covers his space.

5) I Wish myself away.

6) Time resumes. He dies with no possibility of spells/contingencies being cast or triggerred.




OK, there ARE ways to prevent that but they only work for brief periods of time and are expensive OR require the wizard being cooped up in an antimagicked fortress permanently.

Yeah, paranoid wizards will be cooped up in an antimagicked fortress permanently. The target is probably living in a gem with immunity to everything in an antimagic field chamber full of lava (which does not need to take an action to be "oh god it burns"). Wishing next to them is not going to work well. Astral projection and magic jar allow them to make excursions without actually leaving. Even if you do kill them you need a method to avoid clones popping up and putting you back to square one.

Incidently this is why the paranoid wizard does not ban necromancy. It has the simplist "I'm actually over there" and "huh, you killed me, well done you" defenses available, though eye of power and project image can do a decent Sauron impression.

[Inevitability]

Also, where is teleport through time from? It is not on dndtools.

It's from a now-archived WOTC article on their site. Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b), have a link.

Note that the components are, because Spell Component Pouches are weird things, always available to you.

[Darkweave31]

They don't... they astrally project out to the nearest cafe and have a nice theoretical discussion of magic over a cup of tea.

[ace rooster]

It's from a now-archived WOTC article on their site. Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b), have a link.

Note that the components are, because Spell Component Pouches are weird things, always available to you.

Thanks, and that is nice, though the component thing is a bit dubious. The component explicitly cannot be put in a container (which a SCP definately is), and specific trumps general. The question then becomes whether your component pouch contains things that cannot be put in it :smallconfused:. As a DM I would shoot it down, and sleep well after.

It might not actually be that effective anyway though, provided each high level wizard has a large impact on the world. Killing Tom Riddle at level 2 would not result in the non existance of Lord Voldemort, it would simply result in 'Lord Voldemort' having a different back story, and possibly different abilities or even a different name. You will not end up as the last wizard standing, from the note in the spell about reality warping back to normal. Replacing Tom Riddle with a similacrum of yourself however ...

The only answer then becomes that they don't, because they are the same wizard :smallbiggrin:.

[Sartharina]

They don't... they astrally project out to the nearest cafe and have a nice theoretical discussion of magic over a cup of tea.
The problem with Astral Projecting is it leaves a big, shiny "Cut me, please!" string attached to you.

[Necroticplague]

Thanks, and that is nice, though the component thing is a bit dubious. The component explicitly cannot be put in a container (which a SCP definately is), and specific trumps general. The question then becomes whether your component pouch contains things that cannot be put in it :smallconfused:. As a DM I would shoot it down, and sleep well after.

Even ignoring SCP use, Eschew Materials still works the spell. Just poof back to the earliest point where your and his family trees split off, and then kill the very-very-very distant ancestor of him.

Outside such grandfather paradoxing, though, I'm not seeing a way two wizards of sufficient paranoia could kill each other without an entire campaign full of ridiculously complicated shenanigans that would make trying to simulate the universe on an index card easy.

[RFLS]

They both know the only hope for them to win is to immediate start an IndyPloy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IndyPloy) if they delay too long it becomes a game of XanatosSpeedChess (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess) (from information gathering). After enough delay the game becomes an inevitable stalemate unless one side is vastly superior in strength.

^This becomes more and more accurate the closer you get to allowing infinite.

This should come with a warning tag. It just cost me half an hour before I escaped =P

[Darkweave31]

The problem with Astral Projecting is it leaves a big, shiny "Cut me, please!" string attached to you.

contingencies are a thing.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The problem with Astral Projecting is it leaves a big, shiny "Cut me, please!" string attached to you.
Actually, it's worse than that. Not only can the string be cut by both warriors and casters but it connects you and your original body across a practically infinite length. Anyone and their mother with See Invisibility that happens across that infinite length will be able to see it. That's a really, really, really big "Kill Me" sign you're putting up. Not to mention there are effects and attacks that can really harm you despite Astral Projection.


contingencies are a thing.
Not against the problems of Astral Projection they ain't. The string is of practically infinite length across planes. The contingencies are on your body. Therefore;
1) Contingencies can trigger by events very far from the caster. In this case, all your contingencies would be triggering all the time because somewhere in the Multiverse the triggering event would happen. It's an infinite world after all.
2) Contingencies can't trigger by events very far from the caster. In this case, your contingencies wouldn't help if someone cut your thread in the Astral while you were journeying through the Prime.



Persisted Selective AMF
Nope. AMF is an emanation centered on you. Emanations continually radiate from their point of origin (basic magic rules - aiming spells). If it no longer has a point of origin, it doesn't work. No selective spell, extraordinary spell aim or mastery of shaping an AMF to exclude its caster is possible.

Besides, there are ways to suppress Antimagic without disjunctions.

[Darkweave31]

Actually, it's worse than that. Not only can the string be cut by both warriors and casters but it connects you and your original body across a practically infinite length. Anyone and their mother with See Invisibility that happens across that infinite length will be able to see it. That's a really, really, really big "Kill Me" sign you're putting up. Not to mention there are effects and attacks that can really harm you despite Astral Projection.


Not against the problems of Astral Projection they ain't. The string is of practically infinite length across planes. The contingencies are on your body. Therefore;
1) Contingencies can trigger by events very far from the caster. In this case, all your contingencies would be triggering all the time because somewhere in the Multiverse the triggering event would happen. It's an infinite world after all.
2) Contingencies can't trigger by events very far from the caster. In this case, your contingencies wouldn't help if someone cut your thread in the Astral while you were journeying through the Prime.


1st, so far as I'm aware only very specific effects can cut a cord (gith silver sword and astral juggernaut), but they exist, so we plan for them... 2nd, I don't see much wrong in a contingent dispel to end your astral projection if something is about to cut your silver cord. So far as I'm aware, the wording works perfectly fine. The spell affects your person and the triggering event is rather specific to your silver cord being in danger. I don't recall anything that says your contingency spells can only be triggered by local effects, only that triggered spells must affect the person (in this case, dispel magic targeting you and automatically succeeding on dispelling astral projection, thus ending the effect and bringing you back to your body unharmed). Do you have a quote?

[OldTrees1]

This should come with a warning tag. It just cost me half an hour before I escaped =P
I see my trap succeeded. :evilgrin
I wonder how well TVTropes/Nerdsniping would work on a paranoid Wizard?

[Sartharina]

I see my trap succeeded. :evilgrin
I wonder how well TVTropes/Nerdsniping would work on a paranoid Wizard?They read and memorize the entire damn site with a single cantrip.

[Sartharina]

Nope. AMF is an emanation centered on you. Emanations continually radiate from their point of origin (basic magic rules - aiming spells). If it no longer has a point of origin, it doesn't work. No selective spell, extraordinary spell aim or mastery of shaping an AMF to exclude its caster is possible.\Which is why you use Selective spell to exclude you from the effect. It still works - it emanates from you, but you're immune to the effect itself. There's nothing saying the point of origin has to be affected by the spell.

[Jormengand]

Are we here ignoring the fact that the two wizards are probably immune to death by hitpoint damage, immune to magic, immune to divination, immune to death by SoD/NSJD and immune to death by death?

Not to mention that the actual wizards themselves are probably not at all involved in the conflict, and are fighting by proxy. Or rather, their proxies' proxies' proxies' proxies are fighting by at least fifty more layers of proxy.

Each wizard is probably in a demiplane in a demiplane in a demiplane, which can only be reached by passing through a dead-magic demiplane full of supersonic dragons made of iron.

The wizards aren't going to get anywhere near each other. At closest, they'll be about 10 planes away by the shortest route, and that's only of they happen to start their demiplane-ception in the same long-forgotten outer plane.

[Sartharina]

Why are we all assuming maximum optimization? My level 20 wizard lives in a nicely-warded but not excessively so cottage by the village she grew up in.

[Kazyan]

Why are we all assuming maximum optimization? My level 20 wizard lives in a nicely-warded but not excessively so cottage by the village she grew up in.

Maximum optimization is the only valid optimization.

(I'm on my phone, so I cannot use blue text.)

[Sartharina]

Maximum optimization is the only valid optimization.

(I'm on my phone, so I cannot use blue text.)

Sure you can! Just type in the BBcode [ c o l o r = " 0 0 0 0 0 F F " ] [ / C O L O R ] !

[Lord_Gareth]

Why are we all assuming maximum optimization? My level 20 wizard lives in a nicely-warded but not excessively so cottage by the village she grew up in.

Because the OP specified Paranoid Wizards, which is to say, high-OP wizards whose goal is to negate all possible threats to their own lives.

So, you know. Because we were asked to. Next question.

[busterswd]

Why are we all assuming maximum optimization? My level 20 wizard lives in a nicely-warded but not excessively so cottage by the village she grew up in.

A thought occurs after reading this. I imagine if each wizard got belligerent enough and they had sufficient motivation to kill the other, they'd probably start threatening the things the other wizard loves in an effort to make the other screw up. Lots and lots of collateral damage.

[9mm]

you end up with Nex (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Nex_(person)) and Geb (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Geb_(person)).

[Sartharina]

Because the OP specified Paranoid Wizards, which is to say, high-OP wizards whose goal is to negate all possible threats to their own lives.

So, you know. Because we were asked to. Next question.
Paranoid =/= effective, or always high-op.

[Frozen_Feet]

There will never be two allmighty wizards, because the first to ascend will immediately make sure no other such being will ever arise.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Which is why you use Selective spell to exclude you from the effect. It still works - it emanates from you, but you're immune to the effect itself. There's nothing saying the point of origin has to be affected by the spell.
Huh, you're right. For some reason I thought AMF was a targeted and/or personal spell (so you had to be its target) but it's actually an area centered on you. OTOH, AMF is an area centered on you. You can't leave it behind on your body if you are going off Astrally Projecting.



so far as I'm aware only very specific effects can cut a cord
Plus any effects that can destroy, cancel or alter all effects. There are some of those in the PHB, for example.



don't see much wrong in a contingent dispel to end your astral projection if something is about to cut your silver cord.
Infinite length cord crossing an infinite plane that happens to be populated by countless Gith and Astral Juggernaughts. Chances that your thread won't happen upon one of them from the very first round is about zero. Especially since the plane is mostly empty so a glowing thread of infinite length is going to be obvious to anyone that can see invisible. Think how obvious a glowing power cable at night would be to us - and we don't live in an infinite near-emptiness. So either the contingency works and Astral Projection is useless or the contingency doesn't and Astral Projection is lethal. In addition, if an enemy caster sees you astrally projecting, they Time Stop - then go and cut your thread under Timestop when the contingency can neither detect it happening, nor trigger in responce.


Astral Projection is a huge gaping hole in your defenses because it says "to kill me with no save and without having to personally face me, please cut here". No paranoid wizard is going to willingly create that kind of chink in their armor.

[OldTrees1]

They read and memorize the entire damn site with a single cantrip.

What would that do to a mortal? Obviously they become Genre Savvy but might also run into Segal's law from all the subverted trope tropes. Would they end up losing touch with reality since they can't determine which genre savvy is applicable?

[SMWallace]

A thought occurs after reading this. I imagine if each wizard got belligerent enough and they had sufficient motivation to kill the other, they'd probably start threatening the things the other wizard loves in an effort to make the other screw up. Lots and lots of collateral damage.

Pfft, any wizard worth their salt has at least seven contingencies (the spell and otherwise) against beginning to care about anything in any but the most sociopathic sense.

Only half-joking. Seriously, we're talking about the colloquial Paranoid Wizard here. Sure, from an optimization standpoint, a wizard can be so well-defended as to never have anything bad happen to them, and can do pretty much whatever he could want to do by proxy. But the kind of person who needs all of the laboriously-built defenses an optimized wizard has in order to feel secure and never truly interacts with anything without a bunch of Contingencies intended to immediately pull him out of any potentially negative situation? And with that much power to easily acquire or do whatever the hell they want?

They aren't sane. They don't understand the concept of caring about things, or being willing to put themselves on the line for those things by any stretch of the imagination. The Paranoid Wizard probably doesn't do anything period, except perhaps refresh those of his defenses with a duration, because he knows other wizards are out there with the same or better protections against having their goals figured out (or their presence noticed, for that matter) and he sure as hell doesn't want to be the focus of a wizard-killing d&d campaign so realistically he'd never even want to do anything that might call attention to his proxies. Too dangerous, gotta play the long game, gotta stay safe...

Really, I find this conflict most interesting at moderate-op. They're well-defended enough that Scrying or Teleporting right in on them probably won't work and they won't get demolished by the first Metamagic'd Enervation that comes their way, but it's still something that would be considered a real battle, with wizards layering themselves with good ol' buffs and tossing spells directly at each other and having a test of magical wits and might that, even despite their being right next to each other, gasp lasts several rounds.

But that's just my personal opinion, and it's pretty obvious I'm the minority here, which is actually totally cool. As would be a wizard fight. Well, maybe it'd get pretty hot, given that you're stuck inside your lava gem on the Plane of Not Giving a Crap, but hey. :smallwink:

[OldTrees1]

Really, I find this conflict most interesting at moderate-op. They're well-defended enough that Scrying or Teleporting right in on them probably won't work and they won't get demolished by the first Metamagic'd Enervation that comes their way, but it's still something that would be considered a real battle, with wizards layering themselves with good ol' buffs and tossing spells directly at each other and having a test of magical wits and might that, even despite their being right next to each other, gasp lasts several rounds.

Yeah I agree that this is how it would go. Neither one will be impervious(this even extends to higher OP levels via "if it has stats it can be killed") but they will have respectable defenses(along with the means to overcome respectable defenses).

As such the conflict would last a few minutes depending on how balanced fortune was.

[icefractal]

I don't think cord-cutting is a risk per-se, although it might mean you only get one action's worth of attack in. Yes, it kills you - but it kills you while your actual body is in a safe place, with minions that can instantly Revivify you, restore you to full health, and re-project you in less than a round.

The only problem would be the need to re-buff as the new projection. Which does make it hard to maintain a continuous assault using astral projections, and might be a point in favor of the defender. And it makes me think that Wizards who favor using Astral Projection offensively might prefer items to persisted spells, since it gets them back in action faster.

[Divide by Zero]

Why are we all assuming maximum optimization? My level 20 wizard lives in a nicely-warded but not excessively so cottage by the village she grew up in.

Because any wizard who has enemies will eventually become either Sufficiently Paranoid, or dead.

[Emperor Tippy]

1) I Time Stop so I am undetectable and nobody/nothing else can take actions/reactions to me.
Time Stop doesn't actually do all of that. Generally it does but in specific it doesn't, especially against competent high op, high level, wizards.


2) I Wish myself next to my greatest enemy.
You appear next to some abomination from the far realms that is about to end all existence. Properly worded Wish's are a necessity. But even assuming that you actually manage to Wish yourself next to the enemy Wizard (and not any of his decoys), that triggers one of his Craft Contingent Wish's to remove said wizard from the location instantly.


3) I apply 100+ doses of contact poison by simply breaking a big bottle of poison against his immobile form.
Iffy whether or not Time Stop even allows it to be done in the first place but even ignoring that, immunity to poison, immunity to death, immunity to HP damage, immunity to paralysis, immunity to ability damage all stop that. And this is before you get into the exotic defenses.


4) I break a bottle on him containing a pebble with antimagic aura cast on it so the just-released AMF covers his space.
You can't just cast AMF on a rock, the attempt is also going to trigger the Craft Contingent Resilient Sphere that pops up when anything is thrown at the Wizard and stops it cold.


5) I Wish myself away.
Except that the Permanent Emanation: Selective Planar Bubble set to a plane with the Limited Magic: Wish trait that one of the thousands of Ice Assassin Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons that make up my clothes have up stops you from ever casting the Wish. The Dead Magic zone from another also blocks yoru contingencies.


6) Time resumes. He dies with no possibility of spells/contingencies being cast or triggerred.
Yeah, not really.

Oh yes, then there is the little fact that every competent high level, high op, wizard is always covered by a Selective (themselves) Temporal Repair. It does a little thing called shutting down Time Stop and Celerity in the area around the target.

[quote]OK, there ARE ways to prevent that but they only work for brief periods of time and are expensive OR require the wizard being cooped up in an antimagicked fortress permanently.
Not even close to true.


Why are we all assuming maximum optimization? My level 20 wizard lives in a nicely-warded but not excessively so cottage by the village she grew up in.
Which is fine and all but if the DM was really playing the world straight would result in your level 20 wizard being dead before she ever knew that she was even targeted.

[Nightcanon]

Because the OP specified Paranoid Wizards, which is to say, high-OP wizards whose goal is to negate all possible threats to their own lives.

So, you know. Because we were asked to. Next question.
The OP also mentioned:
It would be really great if you could help me to figure out this fight at different optimization levels, the lower being something like "the two mages take feats like Iron Will just because they need a higher will save", and the higher is something like "the two mages take Iron Will from the Othyug Hole for qualifying for Incantatrix etc. and live in their demiplane sanctum protected by Shadesteel Golems PAO'd into the bricks that compose their castel's walls, floor and ceiling.

[BrokenChord]

Which is fine and all but if the DM was really playing the world straight would result in your level 20 wizard being dead before she ever knew that she was even targeted.

Right, sorry for having wizard levels, mom, I didn't realize it would make every other caster in the multiverse hate me. I thought I had to do something to, like, earn the ire of most things that would try to kill me, but apparently murdering things regardless of their threat level or whether or not they in any way shape or form seem posed to stand against your goals is now standard procedure.

... I'm pretty sure that in most cases, in order to be targeted by a 20th-level anything, you generally need to do something to make it worth looking in your general direction. Optimized casters do a lot, but paying attention to the exact builds and actions of every single living being? I won't deny that they probably have the ability to do so (exempting perhaps demonkind, given that they're literally infinite in number), because optimized wizards, but I can't imagine why they would. They have plenty of defenses to not need to worry about every single guy that gets a couple levels under his belt.

If you're just going to sit comfortably in your river cottage behind some powerful and widely useful but not multi-planar time-warping super-ultimate defenses, I really don't see what kind of wizard is going to want you in specific dead. What'd you do, punch his grandmother? If those piddly defensive layers are all they're bothering to muster, they're obviously far too incompetent, lazy, suicidal, or some mixture of the three to then also be threatening to you in the future. And there's no particular resource advantage for slaying the gentle cottage-liver, because if you're doing it right (as you surely seem to be with your defenses) then you can make however much money you want (Demiplane of gold) and you almost certainly have every spell from every splatbook tucked away in your spellbook, not to mention easy access to whatever magic item effect you could conceivably have a need for.

So can you justify to me who exactly is killing the low-op cottage dweller and why, barring personal reasons like the cottage-dweller having punched your grandmother in the third year of wizard college?

[DarkOne-Rob]

Infinite length cord crossing an infinite plane that happens to be populated by countless Gith and Astral Juggernaughts. Chances that your thread won't happen upon one of them from the very first round is about zero. Especially since the plane is mostly empty so a glowing thread of infinite length is going to be obvious to anyone that can see invisible. Think how obvious a glowing power cable at night would be to us - and we don't live in an infinite near-emptiness. So either the contingency works and Astral Projection is useless or the contingency doesn't and Astral Projection is lethal. In addition, if an enemy caster sees you astrally projecting, they Time Stop - then go and cut your thread under Timestop when the contingency can neither detect it happening, nor trigger in responce.

Astral Projection is a huge gaping hole in your defenses because it says "to kill me with no save and without having to personally face me, please cut here". No paranoid wizard is going to willingly create that kind of chink in their armor.
If your description of the effects of the spell (interacting with the infinite Astral Plane) were true, then the spell would be functionally useless. Casting a spell that within 1 round invites death is about as pointless as I can imagine...

That said, I think it is easy to conclude that using Astral Projection does not subject the caster to such immediate risk, or even un-optimized wizards would never use it...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Time Stop doesn't actually do all of that.
Yes, it does. You're undetectable, period. Contingencies won't be activating against you.


Properly worded Wish's are a necessity.
True. But the transport travelers option is a safe one so no perversions unless the caster is really careless/dumb.


But even assuming that you actually manage to Wish yourself next to the enemy Wizard (and not any of his decoys), that triggers one of his Craft Contingent Wish's to remove said wizard from the location instantly.
Not if you do it under Time Stop as the fact that you moved can't be detected. Besides, crafted contingencies take days to craft and you have a limited amount. You can neither cover all eventualities nor keep up with the number of attacks/day a powerful enemy can deliver.


Permanent Emanation: Selective Planar Bubble set to a plane with the Limited Magic: Wish trait
Uhuh. And which plane would that be? Because none of the known planes do that. Besides, the effects of Planar Bubble are keyed to your native plane - which is usually the Prime Material for mortals and has no special traits.


thousands of Ice Assassin Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons
Having annoyed a level 50+ caster with Epic Spellcasting means you're already dead. Just saying...

Temporal Repair.
Can be overcome with a CL check. Also, a timestop that can't be dispelled is unaffected by Temporal Repair.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, it does. You're undetectable, period. Contingencies won't be activating against you.
Neither is actually true. You can interact with the enviroment and so while you can't be directly detected, you can be detected via your effects on the enviroment around you. As for your second claim, that has no rules support at all.


True. But the transport travelers option is a safe one so no perversions unless the caster is really careless/dumb.
"I want to appear next to Wizard A". That's nice, you appear next to his clone. Or a separate temporal iteration. Or a Simulacrum. Or an Ice Assassin. Or some dude who thinks that he is Wizard A and appears to be Wizard A but is not actually who you meant.

Just because Wish will drop you at any location that you want doesn't actually mean that you know what the location that you want is.



Not if you do it under Time Stop as the fact that you moved can't be detected. Besides, crafted contingencies take days to craft and you have a limited amount. You can neither cover all eventualities nor keep up with the number of attacks/day a powerful enemy can deliver.
You can be detected under Time Stop, not that it matters for Contingencies. They are instant craft thanks to Wish. And you only have a limited amount if you are an incompetent..


Uhuh. And which plane would that be?
One of the ones that you have created with the exact traits that you want. Genesis is quite nice.

Besides, the effects of Planar Bubble are keyed to your native plane - which is usually the Prime Material for mortals and has no special traits.
That is what Animated Objects and Ice Assassins created on custom planes are for.


Having annoyed a level 50+ caster with Epic Spellcasting means you're already dead. Just saying...
Not really.


Temporal Repair.
Can be overcome with a CL check. Also, a timestop that can't be dispelled is unaffected by Temporal Repair.
That is why you heighten Temporal Repair to 9th level, no CL check needed. And the second part of that isn't actually rules supported. Incidentally there is also virtually no way to get a Time Stop effect that can't be dispelled.

[RFLS]

I see my trap succeeded. :evilgrin
I wonder how well TVTropes/Nerdsniping would work on a paranoid Wizard?

Aaaaand now I'm on xkcd and TVTropes. Thanks XD

[Forrestfire]

Wouldn't the best course of action in the case of your Silver Cord being in danger to just end the spell? You're automatically aware any time it's threatened, and astral projection ends when "you desire to end it", which isn't an action. Really, someone trying to cut your Cord will just delay you a few rounds.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wouldn't the best course of action in the case of your Silver Cord being in danger to just end the spell? You're automatically aware any time it's threatened, and astral projection ends when "you desire to end it", which isn't an action. Really, someone trying to cut your Cord will just delay you a few rounds.

My issue with Astral Projection is that it doesn't copy all of your Ice Assassin Great Wyrm Dragon clothes that are loaded down with permanent emanations and crafted contingencies. Since they are technically creatures instead of items they don't get copied and that leaves you in a significantly worse position unless you want to invest the resources in making an entire second set of those "items".

[Forrestfire]

Ability rip a Protean Scourge's Split ability onto them, then get as many duplicates as you can damage them for during the hours/level duration of the spell.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You can interact with the enviroment and so while you can't be directly detected, you can be detected via your effects on the enviroment around you.
Time Stop doesn't specify how you're undetectable, only that you are. Id doesn't specify directly, indirectly or in any other way. SB saying that the caster of Time Stop is detectable in any way - by their effects on the environment included - is against the wording of the spell.



You can be detected under Time Stop, not that it matters for Contingencies. They are instant craft thanks to Wish. And you only have a limited amount if you are an incompetent..


So contingencies can activate whether they can detect a trigger or not, and are craftable via Wish (the create magic items variant). Very Well.


As a 5th level Barbarian that just used up all his gold to buy a Candle of Invocation (or a 3rd level one that called up Pazuzu), I call a Solar that serves my ancestral deity, Crom. I instruct the Solar to use its Wish ability to craft contingencies. One Wish contingency that transports me within 40 feet of the nearest magic item or spell effect not on me if doing so would not kill me or destroy my contingencies, one Disjunction contingency that triggers whenever a disjoinable spell effect or magic item is within 40 feet of me, and one Wish contingency that recrafts all 3 contingencies when the first two are expended. With the blessings of Crom behind me, in a single round, I disjoin all magical effects and all magic items in the Multiverse as many times as needed for there to be no more spell effects and magic items in the Multiverse - except for my own contingencies since Disjunction can't disjoin what I carry.




Have fun living in a world without magic.

[Darkweave31]

Infinite length cord crossing an infinite plane that happens to be populated by countless Gith and Astral Juggernaughts. Chances that your thread won't happen upon one of them from the very first round is about zero. Especially since the plane is mostly empty so a glowing thread of infinite length is going to be obvious to anyone that can see invisible. Think how obvious a glowing power cable at night would be to us - and we don't live in an infinite near-emptiness. So either the contingency works and Astral Projection is useless or the contingency doesn't and Astral Projection is lethal. In addition, if an enemy caster sees you astrally projecting, they Time Stop - then go and cut your thread under Timestop when the contingency can neither detect it happening, nor trigger in responce.


Astral Projection is a huge gaping hole in your defenses because it says "to kill me with no save and without having to personally face me, please cut here". No paranoid wizard is going to willingly create that kind of chink in their armor.

I'm not so sure where you're getting your rules for the silver cord because I don't recall it ever being referred to in an official source as "infinite" nor a "glowing power cable"... could your please reference your source?

As for time stop, why does it negate a contingency? Do you have a specific rules quote? Remember, time stop is accelerated time, not actual stopped time. Is it considered an item in a creature's possession? Is it part of the creature? Does the "can't affect a creature" clause mean you can't target the cord either? Did you base your ruling on the "undetectable under time stop" clause? If so, contingency isn't about detection last time I checked, rather it is "if A, then B".

You seem to be basing all of your assumptions on your particular fluff and ruling rather than the actual rules. As I said, could you please state your sources?

Besides that, if you let your opponent get off a time stop before you, you have bigger problems.

EDIT: as for your barbarian example, Pun-Pun (or I don't see why not wizard) detects you, teleports through time, and destroys you before you can do that, since disjunction can't prevent casting (no counterspelling clause). OR you accidentally disjunction a God's favored artifact and they simply snuff out your life with Life and Death... also 1 wish=1 magic item=1 contingency (it uses a singular in the description), so not sure that'll actually even work :smallwink:

EDIT2: But tippy, couldn't you just bring them all with you since astral projection allows you to bring other travelers?

[Sartharina]

EDIT2: But tippy, couldn't you just bring them all with you since astral projection allows you to bring other travelers?

And now I'm imagining a Githyanki raiding party coming across a silver cable and getting confused.

[.Zero]

And what happens if the attacking mage is an arcane/psionic theurge and uses the save game trick? Is he allowed to attack his target relentlessly, dismiss the trick and gaining knowledge of his victim's face, location, defenses etc, without the risk of being tracked and assaulted back?

[molten_dragon]

I was wandering about how would a fight run in a high level, high power game between two opposing Paranoid Wizards.

The two mages have to kill each other, but one doesn't know who the other is or where is he located. All they know is that there's a really powerful spellcaster (at least as powerful as themselves) and they must kill him.

How would this happen? Is it really true that two opposing Paranoid Wizards can't kill each other?

I can't really figure how such a scenario will develop, so what do you think?

It would be really great if you could help me to figure out this fight at different optimization levels, the lower being something like "the two mages take feats like Iron Will just because they need a higher will save", and the higher is something like "the two mages take Iron Will from the Othyug Hole for qualifying for Incantatrix etc. and live in their demiplane sanctum protected by Shadesteel Golems PAO'd into the bricks that compose their castel's walls, floor and ceiling."

So how will this fight happen?

Be careful: none of the mages uses infinite loops to kill the other. Infinite loops are chain-gating solars, infinite wishes, infinite wealth, infinite clones from Body Outside Body with supernatural spells or that manifest powers, infinite leadership shenanigans etc, well, you got my point. No infinite spells known or cast and no infinite save DCs, also, no 3rd party material and no irresistible spell.

I could continue to list banned things forever, bit let's see what you think about it now.

We did something like this in a recent campaign. It was actually a sorcerer and a wizard vs. a psion and a druid/wizard/arcane hierophant, but similar enough. All 20th level and all heavily optimized. There were a few rules to the combat. The biggest was that we actually had to be at the fight physically (so no astral projection/demiplane shenanigans), we all knew when and where the fight was happening, and leaving the battlefield meant losing.

The fight basically devolved to, winning initiative, taking your opponents buffs/protections/contingencies down with a barrage of disjunctions, then killing him with the save or lose of your choice.

I won initiative, and I won the fight. It wasn't a whole lot of fun to be honest. 2 rounds of combat took 4 hours of real time due to the number of protections we had running. We won't be doing it again.

[Forrestfire]

... Out of curiosity, how'd you end up killing them? Did the enemy forget that death is worse than just forfeiting the fight, and neglect to have a contingency for all their defenses being stripped before they could act?

[molten_dragon]

... Out of curiosity, how'd you end up killing them? Did the enemy forget that death is worse than just forfeiting the fight, and neglect to have a contingency for all their defenses being stripped before they could act?

We all had ways of coming back to life if we died for real, so it wasn't like death was permanent. And we all agreed out of character to do the fight this way. We were playing an evil campaign, and to keep from backstabbing each other the whole time and running the campaign into the ground 3 sessions in, we agreed to save up all of our aggression and work it out in a PvP session after the campaign was over.

People had tons of contingencies, but once you get hit with disjunction they're all gone. Most of the contingencies were to stop a disjunction in the first place. It took so long because we had to chip through layers of defenses to get a disjunction to stick.

[Renen]

Well, heres what would happen:

Two low OP and/or low level wuzards sit down at a bar and start playing "go fish".
"Are you immune to all elemental damage?"
"Go fish"
"Are you immune to death effects?"
"Go fish"
"Are you immune to poison"
"Ahhh dammit, you win"

Two high OP wizards sit down at a table.
"Soo... you are immune to all damage except for one you cause yourself?"
"Yep"
"And all mind, death, poison, time effects, as well as magic?"
"Yep"
"Well, lets go kill some gods. Since we are immortal and all..."

Thats basically how it'd go.

[Forrestfire]

I like to think that they settle their differences like gentleman, with Cards Over Swords.