Remaking and Optimizing the Gods

[atemu1234]

As noted before, the gods of D&D (presented in Faiths & Pantheons and Deities and Demigods) are woefully underpowered, mostly due to the utter lack of optimization in their building. So I want to make it my next project to completely remake the gods, optimizing them so that they can be considered somewhat powerful. Some build advice would be appreciated, of course, so if you have any ideas for builds for any god (even [especially] ones that have not been statted in RAW) pleased post, the first one I get I'll stat and post a link to here.

Why don't we start with Nerull? Build advice required, but I'd probably go with Necromancer 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 8 / Dread Necromancer 17 / Ultimate Magus 3, sticking with the same divine rank. (Expect builds to be set for 40th level, ignore any ramifications of multiclassing penalties in the build). I'll post completed stats later.

[Phelix-Mu]

Slap Psion 30 or 40 on each of them and call it a day. They've all partaken heavily in the StP psychic chirurgery market, and so know all spells and powers as powers. That right there should allow them to do whatever they want with minimal effort.

If necessary, just enable Epic Manifesting for each of them, and give them each custom psionic mythals with enough standing effects to make gods shudder (hehe).

I mean, we are talking beings that can conceivably grant their own xp-less miracles at will, probably quickened or w/e, and many of them can probably do it multiple times per round (due to free actions granted by divine rank for certain actions). That's already potent stuff right there.

Basically, I'd avoid hamming it up too much. If you use enough numbers, someone is going to kill it. My general rule for gods is "yeah, they can do that" when it sounds like something that god would do. If it's not something they would do, "no, they won't do that."

But otherwise, for a baseline, each god should have access to 20 levels in a tier 1 class. That way they don't have to be subcontracting out to their celestials/fiends/priesthood.

ALSO: Obligatory dicefreaks reference. Their Orcus made me weep, and I think they also did Pelor and maybe a handful of other core gods. Not sure, been an age since I looked for that stuff.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Deities should not have stats. They're an immortal divine essence, which is capable of manifesting a corporeal form when desired. This corporeal form could have their given stats, but defeating or slaying that corporeal form does not harm or hinder their divine essence in any way, and they could immediately recreate the corporeal form anyway.

Trying to give the gods stats is just silly, they're far too powerful for that type of thing. As just one example of how powerful they are, consider that a deity can grant 20th+ level Cleric class features to an unlimited number of worshipers. Any such deity should be able to use those abilities an unlimited number of times per day, so every deity that could have Cleric worshipers should be able to cast any Cleric spell, as well as any spell from a domain they can grant, at will without preparing it ahead of time. But wait, there's more! An unlimited number of followers could be casting spells granted by that deity at any given time, so that deity should be able to cast an unlimited number of such spells every round! When an uppity PC gets hit with an infinite number of every save-or-die cleric spell in a single round, any such spell that they could fail the save and be destroyed by will destroy them at least once.

[atemu1234]

Deities should not have stats. They're an immortal divine essence, which is capable of manifesting a corporeal form when desired. This corporeal form could have their given stats, but defeating or slaying that corporeal form does not harm or hinder their divine essence in any way, and they could immediately recreate the corporeal form anyway.

Trying to give the gods stats is just silly, they're far too powerful for that type of thing. As just one example of how powerful they are, consider that a deity can grant 20th+ level Cleric class features to an unlimited number of worshipers. Any such deity should be able to use those abilities an unlimited number of times per day, so every deity that could have Cleric worshipers should be able to cast any Cleric spell, as well as any spell from a domain they can grant, at will without preparing it ahead of time. But wait, there's more! An unlimited number of followers could be casting spells granted by that deity at any given time, so that deity should be able to cast an unlimited number of such spells every round! When an uppity PC gets hit with an infinite number of every save-or-die cleric spell in a single round, any such spell that they could fail the save and be destroyed by will destroy them at least once.

Not even here to argue this; flavorful build advice is what I'm looking for, not people telling me I shouldn't do it.

[OldTrees1]

Avatars of Gods are special:
They use Gestalt with one side being a caster. The caster side also knows all spells the God can grant as a free bonus.



Nerull would look like the Dread Lord of the Dead (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3458061) by Tempest_Stormwind

[atemu1234]

Avatars of Gods are special:
They use Gestalt with one side being a caster. The caster side also knows all spells the God can grant as a free bonus.



Nerull would look like the Dread Lord of the Dead (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3458061) by Tempest_Stormwind

I'm not a personal fan of gestalt. I'm thinking personally that they're going to be builds fitting thematically, nongestalt, etc. No flaws, too, seems.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not a personal fan of gestalt. I'm thinking personally that they're going to be builds fitting thematically, nongestalt, etc. No flaws, too, seems.

1) Gestalt is there for things like Kord's Barbarian levels. Once they are gods, they are a source of magic. To not include casting would be contradictory.

2) The build I linked was more thematically fitting that you are giving it credit for.

[atemu1234]

1) Gestalt is there for things like Kord's Barbarian levels. Once they are gods, they are a source of magic. To not include casting would be contradictory.

2) The build I linked was more thematically fitting that you are giving it credit for.

That wasn't the problem, it fit thematically, I still prefer to avoid gestalt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First, give every one of them Cleric 20 + Divine Rank spellcasting no matter what build they have or what class levels you use. They have every domain they can grant as though they were a Cleric of that level, and can prepare each of their domain spells 1/day instead of a Cleric's normal domain spell slots. Each one can Turn or Rebuke Undead as a Cleric of that level as well.

Second, plan to replace all of their BAB, base saves, and base skill points from class levels with what Outsiders get (full BAB, all good saves, 8+Int skill points), and all of their HD lower than d8 gets improved to d8.

Third, determine their ability scores. Just their printed stats will usually be sufficient, considering how extraordinarily high they are.

Finally, give them a level build of your choosing, keeping in mind that they did not have the above BAB, base saves, or skill points until they became a deity if they started out as a mortal with a normal level build.

If your games don't go into the epic levels, give them each a 20th level build and add on twice their divine rank in Outsider HD. If your games do go into the epic levels, use a class build of 40th to 80th level, depending on how powerful you want them to be. You may want to increase their stats depending on their level.

[atemu1234]

My general idea is usually 40-level build + 20 outsider hit dice. Those builds usually involve at least one full casting class, optimized from there, so in, so forth.

[OldTrees1]

That wasn't the problem, it fit thematically, I still prefer to avoid gestalt.

Ah, I am not as skilled as the original author but let's see what I can cobble together.


At the core we would want a Dread Necromancer 20 / Bone Knight 10 / Lord of the Dead 5. Unfortunately Bone Knight only advances a Divine spellcaster. We can trick Bone Knight into accepting Dread Necromancer by taking Cloistered Cleric 1 and the Southern magician feat.

Evolved Undead[+1LA] Lich Human Cloistered Cleric 1 / Dread Necromancer 20 / Prestige Paladin 3* / Bone Knight 10 / Lord of the Dead 5

*we are flexing the alignment restrictions on Prestige Paladin since Bone Knight fixes everything in a bit.

[atemu1234]

Ah, I am not as skilled as the original author but let's see what I can cobble together.


At the core we would want a Dread Necromancer 20 / Bone Knight 10 / Lord of the Dead 5. Unfortunately Bone Knight only advances a Divine spellcaster. We can trick Bone Knight into accepting Dread Necromancer by taking Cloistered Cleric 1 and the Southern magician feat.

Evolved Undead[+1LA] Lich Human Cloistered Cleric 1 / Dread Necromancer 20 / Prestige Paladin 3(flexing the alignment) / Bone Knight 10 / Lord of the Dead 5

Objectively speaking, wouldn't my build be more powerful, at least in terms of spellcasting? We wind up with something that casts as a 20th-level wizard, dread necromancer, and Ur-Priest. Also, I've almost got Nerull done along the lines of my build. I'll post it here.


(Medium Outsider)(Necromancer 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / Dread Necromancer 17 / Ultimate Magus 3 / Mystic Theurge 8)
HD: 22d8 + 17d6 + 21d4 + 480 (691 hp)
Speed: 60 ft.
Initiative: +10
AC: 80 (+30 natural, +15 deflection, +10 dex, +10 Mithril Breastplate)
B/G: +43/+38/+33/+28/+48
Attack: Nerull’s Scythe (Major Artifact, functions as an Everdancing Vorpal Scythe)
Full Attack: Four Scythe attacks
S/R: 5/5
SA: Spells, Domains, Rebuke Undead (Su), Spell-like Abilities (Sp)
SQ: Salient Divine Abilities, Divine Immunities, Read all languages and speak directly to beings within 17 miles, Remote Communication, Godly Realm, Teleport Without Error at-will, Plane Shift At-Will, SR 69, Divine Aura (17 Miles, DC 36), DR 52/Epic
Saves: Fort: +29 Ref: +31 Will: +50
Abilities: Str: 20 Dex: 30 Con: 26 Int: 40 Wis: 40 Cha: 40
Skills: Bluff + 78, Concentration +71, Knowledge (Arcana) +78, Knowledge (Religion) +78, Knowledge (History) +78, Knowledge (The Planes) +78, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +78, Knowledge (Local) +78, Spellcraft +78, Diplomacy +78, Listen +78, Search +78, Spot +78, Hide +73, Move Silently +73, Balance +73, Jump +68, Climb +68, Swim +68, Craft (Alchemy) +37
Feats: Eschew Material Components, Still Spell, Silent Spell, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, Empower Spell, Persist Spell, Epic Spellcasting, Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Still Spell, Automatic Silent Spell, Spell Focus (Necromancy), Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy), Epic Spell Focus (Necromancy), Spell Focus (Evil), Bonus Domain (Death), Bonus Domain (Evil), Bonus Domain (Undeath), Improved Spell Capacity (Ur-Priest, 9th) x 3, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Penetration, Maximize Spell, Enhance Spell, Improved Metamagic x3
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Divine Rank: 17
Domains: Death, Deathbound, Evil, Trickery, Undeath
Salient Divine Abilities: Alter Reality, Arcane Mastery, Area Divine Shield, Avatar, Control Creatures (undead), Craft Artifact, Create Greater Object, Create Object, Divine Blast, Divine Celerity, Divine Creation, Divine Spell Focus (Necromancy), Divine Shield, Increased Spell Resistance, Hand of Death, Life and Death, Life Drain, Spontaneous Wizard Spells, Supreme Initiative, Undead Qualities, Extra Domain (Undeath), Extra Domain (Deathbound).

[OldTrees1]

Objectively speaking, wouldn't my build be more powerful, at least in terms of spellcasting? We wind up with something that casts as a 20th-level wizard, dread necromancer, and Ur-Priest. Also, I've almost got Nerull done along the lines of my build. I'll post it here.

All Deities cast as a 20th level Cleric. (Otherwise they couldn't grant cleric spells)
For any reasonable* application of Epic levels, a 36th level caster > 20th/20th/20th level caster.

*Reasonable usually means rewriting the rules from scratch.

[Bad Wolf]

Which dieties will you be rebuilding? Will you stat up Tenebrous at any time?

Nerull looks good, though I think him having points in Disguise was sorta fluff-related to the inevitability of death.

[atemu1234]

Which dieties will you be rebuilding? Will you stat up Tenebrous at any time?

Nerull looks good, though I think him having points in Disguise was sorta fluff-related to the inevitability of death.

Well, I'll stat up what people request. Tenebrous was only temporarily a god, so I'd say he wasn't that powerful, so what, DR 1-5, maybe? Also, what build would be best? Quite theoretically I'd just be sticking divine ranks on his true form, converted from Tome of Horrors.

[Bad Wolf]

Well, I'll stat up what people request. Tenebrous was only temporarily a god, so I'd say he wasn't that powerful, so what, DR 1-5, maybe? Also, what build would be best? Quite theoretically I'd just be sticking divine ranks on his true form, converted from Tome of Horrors.

I'd peg Tenebrous as a rank five, yeah. Maybe incorporeal? I'd give him a bit of Shadowcaster.

[atemu1234]

I'd peg Tenebrous as a rank five, yeah. Maybe incorporeal? I'd give him a bit of Shadowcaster.

Maybe that, or maybe I'll dip into third party just a little bit for thaumaturge...

[Urpriest]

Deities shouldn't all be able to cast as 20th level Clerics for the same reason Devils above a certain rank shouldn't all have Invocations like 20th level Warlocks, or adult+ Dragons shouldn't all be able to cast as 20th level Sorcerors. Being able to take a source of power and magnify it through your own ability is the nature of spellcasting.

That said, Nerull is a god of death more than a god of the undead, and certainly shouldn't have Ur-priest levels in any even. I'm thinking Cleric 20 casting, minimum, along with lots of Sneak Attack for the Stabby Murder side of things. The Necromancer/Dread Necromancer stuff, and theurging in general, seems less necessary, though if you're going for Epic I guess you might as well do it.

It also does really depend what optimization level you're going for. I'd be comfortable with deities written with solid PO, if primarily Tier 1-ish solid PO (though note that Alter Reality does cover a lot of what a Tier 1 character can do). On the other hand, you can go for Tippy-level optimization, where everyone is a Psion, as suggested by Phelix-Mu.

[sideswipe]

optimised deities...... so you want a Monotheistic pantheon comprising of only pun-pun.


on a more helpful note, if you were to optimise a deity they would just need epic spells. in that way just 21 levels in a single casting class is enough to make a deity. but then again most of the high ranking official D&D gods are already fully optimised. they have alter reality, which used right just is the already "i win" button that epic spells are. and in fact can give them epic spells.

[Bad Wolf]

Arcane Mastery is all a god needs. They can instantly use any spell that exists, and all the ones that don't.

Yes, even that one.

[Bullet06320]

This originally was posted on the old WOTC forums 8-9 years ago, the thread has since disappeared, it was a thread restating all the gods, I copied all the entries and have them, Nerull wasnt posted on that thread tho.

POWER CLAUSE

As an optional rule, to increase their power level, all deities should have the following changes made to their statistics. For creatures with VDvR, each entry specifies whether this applies to their stats.

Quasi-Deities: Quasi-deities (DvR 0; demon princes, devilish nobility, etc.) follow the rules for VDvR creatures except where noted.

Armor Class: All deities have a natural armor bonus equal to 20+divine rank. In addition, all deities have an insight bonus to AC equal to one half their Wisdom bonus. Within their own Realms, their insight bonus equals their Wisdom bonus. This applies to VDvR creatures

Base Attack Bonus: VDvR creatures have base attack bonuses as though they had ten fewer HD than they do. DvR 0 creatures calculate base attack bonus normally.

Class Levels: All deities should have HD equal to 70+(1/2 divine rank). If the deity has character levels, then all but 10 of these should be character levels. If the deity only has monster Hit Dice (ex. Outsider HD, Dragon HD), then they have HD as if they were VDvR creatures, and their divine rank translates into an equal amount of VDvR for those purposes. This only applies to natural born deities (or extraordinarily powerful outsiders; which follow a modified version of this rule), as well as mortals ascended to true deity-hood via worship should have their stats adjusted thus; quasi and hero deities should not. VDvR creatures (as well as archfiend gods) should have HD equal to 60+(1/2 VDvR). For these creatures, they also receive a number of Effective Character Levels by the following formula: (70+VDvR)-(HD/2). DvR 0 creatures have 40 HD, and 25 effective class level.

Damage Reduction (Su): Add the opposite of a portion of the deity’s alignment as a requisite for bypassing their DR. For example, a chaotic good demigod normally has DR 15/epic. Change to DR 15/epic (evil or lawful). Alternatively, the god can choose a special material. For instance, a Fairy deity might have cold iron as a requisite.This applies to VDvR creatures.

Divine Aura: Save DCs equal 20+divine rank+ charisma bonus. This does not apply to VDvR creatures, who use the old method; DC=10+Divine Rank+ charisma bonus.

Domains: Deities receives a number of domains for free depending on their rank. Demigods receive 4, Lesser Gods 5, Intermediate 6, and Greater Gods 7. However, if no domain fits the deity’s portfolio, it may not receive others just to fulfill this number of domains.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp)(Domain): Change the caster level to 30+divine rank. For VDvR creatures, the caster level of their non-divine (not granted by domains) abilities equals their HD-20. DvR 0 creatures use their non-divine abilities at caster level 30.

Feats: Epic Spellcasting or Epic Manifestation as a bonus feat (if they meet the prerequisites). In addition, gods should have all Spellcraft DCs for base seed reduce by 10, and have all modifiers reduced by half, because they are a source of magic in and of themselves, and their true forms are not limited by the Weave or the alignment of the planes, and therefore can cast Epic Magic much more easily. VDvR creatures do not gain this feat.

In addition, all deities with a strength score of at least 24 gain the Awesome Blow feat, even if they don’t meet the other requisites. VDvR creatures do gain this benefit.

Spellcasting: All deities receive a +10 bonus on all caster level checks to overcome SR. This applies to all spells and spell-like abilities. Within their own Realms, this bonus increases to +12. In addition, all gods with at least 20 caster levels in a Spellcasting class with at least a 6th level spell progression (Bard, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid) cast all spells from that class with an bonus to effective caster level (for variables dependant on caster level, as well as for caster level checks to beat SR) equal to their divine rank. For example, a deity with Divine Rank 16 and 20 levels of cleric would cast his cleric spells at 36th caster level, and would have an effective caster level of 46th when making caster level checks to beat SR. This bonus does not stack with the Divine Bonus that all deities receive to all checks; the deity above would simple add 46 to his result of his caster level check roll (an automatic 20 in this case), and would not add an additional Divine Bonus of 16 to the check. VDvR creatures do not gain these benefits. They do, however, receive the True Caster feat for free (see below for details about True Dweomers).

If your campaign uses True Dweomers, gods continue increasing in spells per day indefinitely (adding one spell per day to each spell level (1-9) at 24th level, 28th, etc.), and wizard and sorcerers gain 10th, 11th, and 12th level spell slots (as per the Arcanist Weave Depth Progression in Netheril, Empire of Magic). These slots can be used either for Metamagic spells, or for True Dweomers (though spell slots from the Divine Spellcasting SDA and Improved Spell Capacity feat cannot be used for True Dweomers). In addition, spells cast by gods have no damage caps.

Spell Resistance: Change to 46+divine rank. Greater deities receive SR equal to 51+divine rank instead. Within their own realm, this changes to 56+divine rank, or 61+divine rank for greater deities. VDvR creatures do receive these benefits.

Abilities: Change normal Divine Array (35, 29, 25, 24, 24, 24) to 45, 39, 35, 30, 30, 30. This brings about the subsequent increases to Armor Class, Initiative, Hit Points, Attack Bonuses, Damage Rolls, Skill Modifiers, Saving Throws, Ability Save DCs, and a host of other things affected by this change in ability scores. In addition, the deity gains skill points for the increase in Intelligence. VDvR creatures use the array 40, 34, 30, 29, 29, 29. DvR 0 creatures (Demon Princes, Hero Deities) have use the array 30, 29, 25, 24, 24, 24.

Skills: Deities do not have max ranks. In addition, all deities receive a +10 bonus on Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Arcana), and Knowledge (Religion) checks. Deities that live on the Outer or Inner Planes receive the same bonus to Knowledge (The Planes) checks. VDvR creatures receive half of these bonuses.

Avatars: All deities can manifest avatars. Demigods can have up to 2, Lesser Deities 5, Intermediate Gods 10, and Greater Gods 20. In addition, avatars can be in any form the deity desires, and can have stats with HD anywhere up to the deities. The same goes for Divine Rank, though the max is half. On the Prime, the strongest avatar a deity may use may have the same class levels as the deity, with no outsider HD, and Divine Rank of 0. On the Planes, no such rules apply, and avatars can be every bit as strong as those presented in Deities and Demigods. VDvR creatures do not manifest avatars.
If an avatar is destroyed, it takes a greater god 1 day to make another, an intermediate deity a week, a lesser deity a month, and a demigod a year.


Alter Reality: All deities possess the Alter Reality SDA, as described in Deities in Demigods, except that duplicated spells are subject to SR, and the caster level for such spells in 15+divine rank. Because these effects are not spells, per se, they cannot be used as counterspells, and cannot be counterspelled. Deities still receive a +10 bonus to caster level checks for these spells (or +12 within the deity’s Realm). VDvR creatures do not gain this ability.

Life and Death: At will, as a free action, a Greater Deity can slay any mortal anywhere in the Multiverse, simply by willing it so. This ability mimics the Destruction spell, except that there is no save, SR is not applicable, and the deity chooses the visual effects of the spell. A mortal so slain cannot be brought back to life by any means other than a deity of higher rank than the god who slew them using Gift of Life or Life and Death abilities. This ability ignores any warding except Divine Shields created by a deity of higher rank, and, theoretically, specifically designed epic spells and artifacts. The deity can also raise any dead mortal anywhere, no matter how long they have been dead, as long as they weren’t slain by a deity of higher rank using this ability. Intermediate and Lesser deities share the ability to raise mortals, though not to directly cause their death (any god is clever enough to arrange a fatal accident, however). VDvR creatures do not gain this benefit.

Summoning Ability: Creatures with VDvR and DvR that are exemplars of an Outsider Race (Tanar’ri, Archons, etc.) can, at will, summon a number of lesser members of their race. No creatures summoned may have a CR greater than 20, or may the combined CR of their summoned creatures exceed DvRx10, (creature with DvR 1 are treated as DvR 2 for this purpose, and may therefore have a total of CR 20). These summoned creatures cannot use their summoning abilities while summoned. DvR 0 creatures that are exemplars follow the same guidelines, but they are limited to 3 times per day. They may have a total of CR 20. Such creatures must give up one SDA in order to keep this ability as well as their racial spell-like abilities.

Salient Divine Abilities: VDvR creatures do gain SDA’s. Most such creatures, however, have unique abilities related to their backgrounds, whose power is similar to that of SDAs. Such abilities use 10+1/2 HD+ relevant ability modifier as the DC. For example, most exemplar VDvR creatures spend one SDA to retain (and add to) their racial spell-like abilities and summoning abilities (one SDA for both abilities). Fairly weak abilities (such as Graz’zt’s Item Master and Fear abilities) count as half an SDA. VDvR creatures gain a number of such abilities equal to a god of their VDvR. Spurn the Divine does not cost an SDA slot, and almost all VDvR creatures possess it. VDvR creatures may not posses abilities which have DvR as a requisite, though they may ignore domain prerequisites.

Layer Capabilities (Su): Within their own layers (if and only if they specifically control one), archfiends and other exemplar semi-divinities gain an extraordinary measure of divine power. When on their home layer, the semi-divinity’s VDvR increases to 2 times normal plus one (but never above 15). For example, if a demon lord normally had a virtual divine rank of 2, while on his home layer it would effectively be 5. This increase applies to the following areas: SR, AC bonuses, attack bonuses, divine abilities save DCs, skill modifiers, etc. In addition, on their home layer, such creatures have a degree of control that rivals that of even greater deities over their Realms. Their sensory abilities extend to the entire layer (instead of just one mile per rank). The save DCs of their spells increase by +10 (only for effects with a duration longer than instantaneous), and they may alter the terrain and rules of magic on their layer as though they had a DvR of 3 times plus one their usual VDvR



http://community.wizards.com/comment/13968231
and that post is just an interesting opinion on the subject

[TypoNinja]

Any god with 20 levels in a casting class? Make it 21. Now pick spells as if blasting wasn't the best thing ever. Half the problem solved right there. Want to go really in depth? Take some freaking PrC's on these bad boys. Seriously. Who takes all 20 of just about anything? A good PrC or two is almost always better.

Don't TO your new gods. Remember the Pantheon is themed. An appropriate choice is better than an optimal choice. A clerical deity who hates Undead wants 20 levels of cleric. Turn undead is his thing. Even if it is mechanically a poor choice. Pelor with a crappy TU because he PrC'd would be a really crappy Pelor. On the same token some Gods would avoid certain choices for the same reasons. Sticking with Pelor for example, he could cast Energy Drain, but he wouldn't as a matter of preference. He hates undead like nobody else, why would he toss around energy draining negative energy attacks that might create more? Likewise he wouldn't take any of the Fell Metamagics.

Make sure you don't leech the flavour out of them when you make them stronger!

[Extra Anchovies]

Any god with 20 levels in a casting class? Make it 21. Now pick spells as if blasting wasn't the best thing ever. Half the problem solved right there. Want to go really in depth? Take some freaking PrC's on these bad boys. Seriously. Who takes all 20 of just about anything? A good PrC or two is almost always better.

Don't TO your new gods. Remember the Pantheon is themed. An appropriate choice is better than an optimal choice. A clerical deity who hates Undead wants 20 levels of cleric. Turn undead is his thing. Even if it is mechanically a poor choice. Pelor with a crappy TU because he PrC'd would be a really crappy Pelor. On the same token some Gods would avoid certain choices for the same reasons. Sticking with Pelor for example, he could cast Energy Drain, but he wouldn't as a matter of preference. He hates undead like nobody else, why would he toss around energy draining negative energy attacks that might create more? Likewise he wouldn't take any of the Fell Metamagics.

Make sure you don't leech the flavour out of them when you make them stronger!

Actually, in the case of Pelor, I think he'd be Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/Sacred Exorcist 10/Master of Radiance 5/Sacred Purifier 5/Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine 1/Cleric +3, or something along those lines. 38/40 casting, 40/40 turn undead. Lots of other side goodies, most of them anti-undead or light-related.

[Milodiah]

Only on Giant in the Playground...

"These gods need more cheese, let's optimize!"


I'm a Call of Cthulhu GM. I subscribe to the philosophy of "Cthulhu eats 1d3 investigators per round". Which is an actual excerpt from the stat block, mind you. You fight a god, you lose in my book.

Just my two cents...as far as I care, a deity doesn't have a level cap. Bump it to 60 or 70 if you feel it's needed. They're deities.


Actually, in the case of Pelor, I think he'd be Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10

Pelor is a Servant of Pelor...

OH GOD THE RECURSION

[TypoNinja]

Actually, in the case of Pelor, I think he'd be Cleric 6/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10/Sacred Exorcist 10/Master of Radiance 5/Sacred Purifier 5/Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine 1/Cleric +3, or something along those lines. 38/40 casting, 40/40 turn undead. Lots of other side goodies, most of them anti-undead or light-related.

Yea I couldn't remember the names of any of the turning PrC other than Radiant Servant, though I feel like it should be renamed if he's got levels in it.

Pelor having Levels in Radiant Servant of Pelor is just strange.

[OldTrees1]

Yea I couldn't remember the names of any of the turning PrC other than Radiant Servant, though I feel like it should be renamed if he's got levels in it.

Pelor having Levels in Radiant Servant of Pelor is just strange.

Every God that serves their own ends is a servant of themselves.

[Phelix-Mu]

Every God that serves their own ends is a servant of themselves.

But his own ends are serving others as he serves himself, he's the Servant of a servant, the....

*head explodes*

Anyway, like I said earlier, I'd avoid too many little tricks that optimizing usually makes fruitful. First-off, most of the deities are semi-retired; most of the time they let others do the work for them while they are godly or drinking tea or whatever. So utility, versatility, and all that are cool, but pretty much entirely secondary to their job description.

Also, SDAs do and probably should do a lot of the heavy lifting. That's because you want the power between the gods to scale properly, in terms of divine rank, and too much optimization of class levels can quickly reduce the impact of that gulf. Greater powers are supposed to be able to swallow lesser powers whole, metaphorically speaking, and the major difference between the two is divine rank and its impact on SDAs. Otherwise it becomes really tricky to try to scale the class-level op properly to divine rank, as there are quite a large stack of divine ranks among those in the upper echelons.

So, yeah, I'd stick with jamming in 30 levels or so of tier1-2 on everyone, some thematic other stuff supporting that, and then just max out their Multispell, their Improved Spell Capacity, their Permanent Emanation, etc. There's enough variety in the top tiers to keep it thematic, in my view, and avoid making stuff too complicated.

I'd love to see some stats for Hleid, though, lol. One of my players has an epic cleric devoted to her; great character.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Suggestions and stuff;

Don't give Outsider HD.
They don't offer anything to the build other than raw numbers and needlessly inflate total level while making the build less optimized. A build with 50 class levels is better mechanically and flavor-wise than a build with 30 class levels and 20 racial HD.

Ability scores
Deities should have higher scores than mortals - even mortals with ability boosts. Generally speaking, the basic array + levels + DvR for their scores sounds OK, giving results in the 48-118 range depending on the deity's power (48 for a base stat of 8 and quasigod of 40 HD, 118 for base of 18 and pantheon head of 70 HD. Of course, these scores should not be modified by enhancement, magic, inherent or age bonuses as they presumably already include them.

Focus on broad classes.
Gods existed before PrCs flavor-wise. Mechanics-wise, the more PrCs you use the fewer people can use the build because not everyone has access to every splatbook. Nerull would work better as Cleric 50/Hierophant 5 than Dread Necro because there are many spells about death and undeath that the Dread Necro doesn't have. Also, ur-priest is an anti-deity class. Last but not least, broad classes are more powerful.


Optimize their SDAs
All gods can do miracles thus all gods should get Alter Reality - they'd be unable to do miracles otherwise. Divide the rest of their SDAs into flavor-oriented and class-oriented. Nerull for example should have several SDAs into being a greater god of death (mass life+death, extra domains about death/fate, rejuvenation, divine splendor) and several SDAs into being a cosmic-level cleric (automatic metamagic SDAs for his spells and SLAs, divine spell capacity and the like).

Optimize their feats
This comes after SDAs because many feats and epic feats become obsolete after SDAs apply. A god won't need improved spell capacity if they got the divine equivalent. They won't need metamagic reducers if they apply 3-4 metamagic feats automatically.
What caster deities do need is Innate Spell so they can gain SLAs not in their domains (Time Stop/Gate/Miracle at will!), and multispell. A deity with 10 multispells and all their spells/SLAs quickened+twinned effectively gets off 24+ spells/round. A deity that also happens to have Time Stop could act for 100+ rounds per round without even going into shenanigans - that would be their basic power level.


Unique powers
Every deity should have a couple unique powers to reflect things the basic SDAs don't cover - usually 1 per divine tier. Think Mystra and her Weave, Odin amd his Foresight, Zeus and his Thunderbolt.


Artifacts
Generally, gods have had the time and resources to build whatever items they wanted. Instead of loading them with treasure though, give them a few powerful artifacts that grant special deity-level abilities, not just plusses. Thor's belt doubling his strength and his hammer being able to cleave mountains to make valleys, Odin's throne enabling him to see anywhere in Creation, Poseidon's trident being able to shake whole kingdoms, Zeus' Aegis being impenetrable and petrifying all enemies who gazed upon it.

[atemu1234]

For Tenebrous I'm still trying to think of a proper build for it, from which I will then probably add the Demon Lord template, then divine ranks. Currently thinking Necromancer 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Death Master 18 with Alternate Spell Source to allow (somewhat cheesily) Mystic Theurge to spend its last two levels advancing Death Master and Necromancer. Highly similar to Nerull's build, but this one's only divine rank 5. In other words, Mini-Demon Nerull. Critique my build, but just assume Alternate Spell Source cheese works here.

[Extra Anchovies]

Only on Giant in the Playground...

"These gods need more cheese, let's optimize!"

Do you mind if I sig this?


I'm a Call of Cthulhu GM. I subscribe to the philosophy of "Cthulhu eats 1d3 investigators per round". Which is an actual excerpt from the stat block, mind you. You fight a god, you lose in my book.

The Call of Cthulhu statblocks are hilarious. Reading that "1d3 investigators per round" line the first time was a wonderful experience. They certainly know how to stat out alien gods/demigods.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

"Cthulhu eats 1d3 investigators per round"
So to prevent him from eating you all you have to do is not be an investigator. Be a cultist, police officer or beauty queen and suddenly his dreaded munchies attack doesn't work. :smallbiggrin:

[ZamielVanWeber]

First, give every one of them Cleric 20 + Divine Rank spellcasting no matter what build they have or what class levels you use. They have every domain they can grant as though they were a Cleric of that level, and can prepare each of their domain spells 1/day instead of a Cleric's normal domain spell slots. Each one can Turn or Rebuke Undead as a Cleric of that level as well.


All gods can use their domain spells as SLAs at will.

Also, with a few changes, Belial's advice is how I do my gods if I end up running a deicide campaign. Synergy between SDAs and feats is the biggest disappointment with Deities and Demigods, (along with gods lacking epic feats). I recommend the most generic bridging PrCs for gods possible (my Boccob was Wizard 10/ Cleric 10/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Archmage 5/ Heirophant 5). This gives more synergy between classes and leaves room for other useful PrCs.

[atemu1234]

All gods can use their domain spells as SLAs at will.

Also, with a few changes, Belial's advice is how I do my gods if I end up running a deicide campaign. Synergy between SDAs and feats is the biggest disappointment with Deities and Demigods, (along with gods lacking epic feats). I recommend the most generic bridging PrCs for gods possible (my Boccob was Wizard 10/ Cleric 10/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Archmage 5/ Heirophant 5). This gives more synergy between classes and leaves room for other useful PrCs.

Even if I use a nongeneric PrC, it's not like the PCs have Detect Nonflavorful Character Build as a SLA, anyway.

[Buufreak]

Can't help but mention, but a good many (80 if I am counting right) Gods and the like were rerolled by dicefreaks. If I had a decent method of doing it, I would help share the ones for the sake of God's reputation everywhere.

[Milodiah]

So to prevent him from eating you all you have to do is not be an investigator. Be a cultist, police officer or beauty queen and suddenly his dreaded munchies attack doesn't work. :smallbiggrin:

Investigator = player character, in the same way as Keeper = GM. Although the actual phrasing varies from edition to edition, I think 3rd was "eats 1d6 people per round".


Be a cultist and suddenly his dreaded munchies attack doesn't work.

Welcome to my last session.


Do you mind if I sig this?
Go right ahead, is my goal after all.