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View Full Version : IF you had to build an anti wizard fighter How would you do it?



Marcotic
2007-03-21, 12:39 AM
Kay, my bud thinks that fighter is the most readily abusable class there is and has made the statement that he could make one that could DESTROY anything else, for this expirement, let's go with a wizard opponent. How would/could you guys make, a fighter, a pure fighter lets say, that could do that? assume wealth by level, and 25 point buy. Say it's in a cube, totally inescapable 100ft by 100ft by 100ft. Assume average hit dice rolles. THIS should be intresting. The fighter starts at one wall, and the wizard at the other. We'll analize them one at a time.

Cybren
2007-03-21, 12:41 AM
Uhm at what level?

Marcotic
2007-03-21, 12:44 AM
Oh gawd me so stupid! lets go level 20 srrry

Cybren
2007-03-21, 12:47 AM
Anyway this should be in the other forum...

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 12:47 AM
With what sources? What rules (i.e., custom items?)? I mean, after a certain point you stop getting into the realms of "uber" and start getting into the realms of "complete and poinltess cheese".

Why an inescapable cube of those dimensions (negates fly/teleport advantages)?

Vorpal Pete
2007-03-21, 01:04 AM
Jeez, doesn't sound like a very fair fight. I guess maybe give the fighter lots of feats and items to improve his initiative and dexterity, and some bow shooting feats. Shouldn't be hard to get him shooting six or more arrows per round with a very high attack bonus.

Then buy him a bunch of greater slaying arrows keyed to slaying wizards. Hopefully you win initiative and shoot the wizard full of greater slaying arrows before he has time to buff up. He has to make a bunch of DC23 fort saves or die.

It's tough to say - there's a lot of variety between 20th level wizards. You might be able to take him out in that inescapable cube just by having wings of flying and grappling him.

I ran an epic game once (and only once) in which the players were arguing over a romantic rivalry. The 25th level wizard emphasized what he was saying by blasting the fighter with magic missile because he "knew it wouldn't kill him with so many hit points." Having just been attacked with a lethal spell, the fighter drew his uber magic sword and charged. He had that epic feat that lets you do a full attack at the end of a charge, and he killed the wizard dead in a single round.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 01:14 AM
Ring of Freedom of Movement--what grappling?
Wind Wall--what arrows?
Time Stop--what buffing time?

If you win initiative against a wizard who has no spells up, sure, you can probably kill him with archery or charging damage output. But why wouldn't a wizard have hours/level spells up?

Vorpal Pete
2007-03-21, 01:47 AM
Yeah, that's more or less why I was pointing out that there's a lot of differences between individual 20th level wizards... if your particular target has a ring of freedom of movement and a permenant wind wall (?) you won't get him that way. Heck, he might have a +22 fort save for some reason and then the arrows of slaying are just arrows of uncomfortable hit point loss.

As for why a wizard wouldn't have spells up? I don't know... why are we in an inescapable box?

Marcotic
2007-03-21, 02:01 AM
Yeah, when he said it, I was a bit confused too, he said somthing about using silenced arrows, but I thought to myself "wands?" But for this lets just go core, and it's errata. I'm gonna put this on a more appropriate posting bordy thingy, sorry about that.

Miles Invictus
2007-03-21, 02:57 AM
Round one: Time Stop. The wizard moves thirty feet towards the fighter.
Round two: The wizard casts Maximized Cloudkill on the area the fighter is in.
Round three: The wizard casts Forcecage (Windowless Cell) around the fighter, thus preventing the Cloudkill from moving away from the fighter, and likewise preventing the fighter from moving away from the Cloudkill.

The fighter needs to not only win initiative, but successfully do enough damage to kill the wizard in one round, or he loses. Which isn't going to happen -- he can't reach the wizard in melee, and ranged attacks don't do enough damage to guarantee a one-round kill.

The bottom line is that the fighter only wins if everything goes right. The wizard wins just by being able to act.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-03-21, 03:41 AM
As much as I love the Cloudkill + Forcecage combo, it should be noted that immunity to poison will get him out of immediate danger. Not that Periapts of Proof Against Poison are typically at the top of an adventurer's shopping list, but a Heroes' Feast will cover it. That won't show up in a one vs. one setup, but in a "Slaying the Evil Wizard" quest you'd better believe that every day starts with one of those feasts.

You've also got to pelt the forcecage with Dimensional Anchor so he can't use an item (Cape of the Mountebank?) to slip out.

Kioran
2007-03-21, 04:18 AM
A Fighter would have to rely heavily on magical items to counter the wizards attacks, but since the wizard has nearly unlimited ressources(being a lvl 20 spellcaster) he could simply revive himself with a contingency/wish combination.
The best wizardkiller is, in my humble opinion, the lvl20 monoclass monk. A fighter is, without several supplements, especially broken Faerun stuff, not up to a wizards game - not if they both have acces to the same ressources.

If, however, your Player wants to pull this through, he needs, first and foremost, equipment which enables him to grab Initiative (Dex Bonus!) and survive if the Wizard starts acting (Ring of Regeneration - as long as heīs not finished off with Melfīs or Disintegrate, heīll be able to make a reappearance, along with other Items named by earlier Posters). A Ranged weapon is a must to eliminate the need for closing with the enemy, a thing which the wizard can effectively prevent with dimension door and teleport, wall of force etc.
You might be able to rush him in the first round, but not again. certainly not. Especially if you are a Fighter and thus slow........

Demented
2007-03-21, 04:43 AM
Beat initiative. Antimagic field the sucker 'til he begs for mercy.
Apply pliers and corkscrew until satisfied.

Exactly how you accomplish the first two steps is what 20 levels of Fighter should be dedicated to. The wizard will probably be attempting to do the same.

Gungnir
2007-03-21, 07:20 AM
Give the Terrasque 20 levels of fighter.

Haedrian
2007-03-21, 07:53 AM
Hey, I have one of those friends as well. Only it was a druid/fighter fight.

Basically, if you were to remove the "5 foot step cast" rubbish, the wizard could chew him up with a wish spell :)

Either way, the wizard would at best use some repel spell to keep him away, summon a few creatures, then use a maximised version of flamestrike ( i think this is the name), since it has no save for half the damage.

Then when the fighter falls below 100 hp, he blows him to shreds using a Power Word.

By Conclusion:

Its impossible for a fighter to win.

Vorpal Pete
2007-03-21, 03:24 PM
Actually the antimagic field is a good idea... I suppose if the fighter had a bunch of decipher script and use magic item he could manage it from a scroll.

TempusCCK
2007-03-21, 03:39 PM
Fighter wastes a feat on craft magical items, gets himself a wizard hireling and forges Antimagic and Dispell Magic armor and weapons. Not in the Core, but the options to do so are.

Then he has the same hireling scribe him a few scrolls of Antimagic Field, with some buffed skills and good initiative he's trumped the wizard long enough for him to either waste or delay TimeStop, then it's just a matter of closing in, whacking around with his +5 Greatsword of Dispell Magic. The antimagic armor, of course, wouldn't be a field effect, but would apply to incoming spells.

Also, if you really wanted to get into it, you could get mantles of spell resistance or damage reduction. It's possible, you just have to craft your items accordingly.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 03:44 PM
Thri-Kreen Fighter.

Feats: Open Lesser Chakra (Arms), Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws), Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Snap Kick, Bonus Essentia, Cobalt Power.

Wear a ring of Continuous Girallon's Blessing, pump Dex and Str with everything you can. Get boots of striding and springing. Invest your three essentia into your Thunderstep Boots.

Win initiative. Charge 100' (your max range), and sink everything into Power Attack, converting it to AC loss instead of AB loss with Shock Trooper. You have six claws, a bite, and a kick (attack pattern +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+18/+20, before Str mod), each of which does 1d6 + 3d4 + 60 + Str (bite and kick have 1/2 Str) and will force the target to make a Fort save or be stunned for 1 round. Further, your bite has a Con-damaging poison, weakening your target further.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-21, 03:45 PM
there are a lot of feats, and prestige class's that would screw the guy over, dont have my book on hand ATM but its not only do able but easliy done with complete mage and i think tome and blood

Dancing_Zephyr
2007-03-21, 04:12 PM
The wizard wins if he has Celerity. If not, then he has to survive one round.

Swordguy
2007-03-21, 04:19 PM
Give the Fighter a Ring of Wishes. Have him wish the mage out of existence.

Short of that, the Wizard is pretty much always going to win, dice stupidity allowing.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 04:22 PM
Give the Fighter a Ring of Wishes. Have him wish the mage out of existence.

How remarkably elegant.

Swordguy
2007-03-21, 05:14 PM
How remarkably elegant.

I only say that because I did that (as a GM) to my PCs.

They were complaining that I didn't run Wizards "smart enough", and that BBEG Wizards should use more than just Blasty Spells.

So they went after the 20th lvl BBEG Wizard, asking questions in the tavern. This triggered his Contingency Scrying spells, by which he learned of the threat, and the fact that the PCs were a serious danger to him. He then summoned and bargained with an Efreeti for Wishes that wouldn't go bad, and wished the party, one-by-one, out of existence.

I've never had the complaint come up again.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-21, 05:40 PM
Hmm... you want a Fighter Killing Wizaed, eh.
Here's the build- Wiz-3/Master Specialist-6/Iot7V-7/(the remaining 4 levels should be spent on Archmage, Master Specialist, or Abjurant Champion)

Venerable Grey elf-
Inteligence-36(18+5+5+6+3+2) Modifier of +13
Ban Evocation and enchantment
Make sure the folowing spells are on your list-
Time Stop
Clerity
Greater Shadow evocation(for Contingency)
Orb spells(I suggest orb of Force)
Greater dispel Magic
Shapechange
Shivering touch
Truestrike
Superior Invisiblity
Any other spell for True Logical Ninja's guide in the Cheese section

Make sure get the following feats
Spell focus Abj(its a requirment)
Reach spell(if not Archmage)
Maximze Spell

Contingency time stop for whenever you cast clerity

Strat-Cast Clerity
Timestop activates
Buff yourself(include Greater invis)
After timestop ends, cast shivering touches until Dex=0
Then cast orbs until HP<100
Power word kill

If he ever gets close to you activate viels and cast Prismatic Wall/Sphere

Swordguy
2007-03-21, 05:49 PM
Hmm... you want a Fighter Killing Wizaed, eh.
Here's the build- Wiz-3/Master Specialist-6/Iot7V-7/(the remaining 4 levels should be spent on Archmage, Master Specialist, or Abjurant Champion)

Venerable Grey elf-
Inteligence-36(18+5+5+6+3+2) Modifier of +13
Ban Evocation and enchantment
Make sure the folowing spells are on your list-
Time Stop
Clerity
Greater Shadow evocation(for Contingency)
Orb spells(I suggest orb of Force)
Greater dispel Magic
Shapechange
Shivering touch
Truestrike
Superior Invisiblity
Any other spell for True Logical Ninja's guide in the Cheese section

Make sure get the following feats
Spell focus Abj(its a requirment)
Reach spell(if not Archmage)
Maximze Spell

Contingency time stop for whenever you cast clerity

Strat-Cast Clerity
Timestop activates
Buff yourself(include Greater invis)
After timestop ends, cast shivering touches until Dex=0
Then cast orbs until HP<100
Power word kill

If he ever gets close to you activate viels and cast Prismatic Wall/Sphere

Uh...dude? You've got it backwards.

The OP wants a Wizard-killing Fighter.

Slight difference.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-21, 06:02 PM
Opps, I misread his first post. If you need a anti wizard fighter over that distance, the uber charger on a fast mount might do it.

Demented
2007-03-21, 06:05 PM
Alternatively to antimagic field, since the OP said "average rolls", you just need a Fighter who can manage saves better than the best save DC a same-level wizard can manage. Possible?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 06:10 PM
Alternatively to antimagic field, since the OP said "average rolls", you just need a Fighter who can manage saves better than the best save DC a same-level wizard can manage. Possible?

Not as a fighter.

Orzel
2007-03-21, 06:14 PM
1) Kill a bunch o' people and take their money (the fighter is the best class at fighting for hours straight)
2) Hire 2 level 20 wizards
3) Sleep

That's all I got. I don't play nonstealth classes. I usually shoot wizards from the bushes.

Avicenex
2007-03-21, 06:22 PM
Give the Terrasque 20 levels of fighter.

The sad thing is that still won't kill the wizard. There's this nasty spell called "Fly" the Tarrasque just can't seem to deal with...

As for the fighter, you can tweak all you want but you pretty much just have to pray he wins initiative.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-21, 06:23 PM
Ummm... ya don't.

Wiz/Iot7V/AM. I am immune to fighters thanks to my veils. Go away now, kkthxbye.

Wiz: Contingency Celerity (one action as a swift action, stunned next turn) upon my being attacked. Use that action to cast Sudden Maximized Time Stop. This gives me 4 rounds (after the one I was stunned in) for buffing and the like. Well, how about this: DBF x 4. Congratulations, make obscene reflex saves or take up to 100d6 damage. Have a nice day.

Or, for flavor:

Time stop round 1: recover from stun
Time Stop Round 2: Reverse Gravity the area the Fighter is in
Time Stop Round 3: PAO: the celing above him into Lava
Time Stop Round 4: Put a Wall of Force between you and the Fighter so he can't do anything tricky while he falls up into his lava bath for 20d6 damage per round

if he does manage anything, start slapping those veils up.

Or even nastier

Time Stop Round 2: Reverse Gravity
Time Stop Round 3: Prismatic Sphere above fighter

Congratulations, you're going through an entire Prismatic Wall twice a round. Have a nice day.

MeklorIlavator
2007-03-21, 06:55 PM
Wow, great minds think alike, don't they, Sneeky, don't they (look at my spoiler).

Roderick_BR
2007-03-21, 07:12 PM
Go to the WotC and kick their arses for making broken powers available to non-epic characters.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-21, 07:13 PM
Wow, great minds think alike, don't they, Sneeky, don't they (look at my spoiler).

Not really. You see, mine actually works.

Celerity is a 2nd level spell, and thus can be a part of a Contingency, which cannot activate a spell over 6th level. So your strat, which is to cast celerity for a free action then Contingency Time Stop is against the rules, and rather pointless.

Also:

1) I was writing up a much more simplistic character, using much less cheeze to do the same thing. I didn't bother with Grey Elf Wizard, because it is pointless, as the strategy I used requires no saves at all, eliminating and obviating any requirement for a +13 int mod, all you need is an int 19 to run my strat.

2) I wasn't trying to say this is the build to use to kill the wizard, I'm just saying that no fighter has a chance against this wizard

3) I actually came up with a one-round kill without needing to close, you, on the other hand, require your caster to go into melee range for Shivering Touch. Greater Invis won't work against a decently equipped Fighter, who will almost certainly have a means of seeing invisible.

4) Contingency is an Evocation spell. Since your wizard banned Evocation, he can't even cast the spell

5) I didn't have multiple gross misspellings in my build

Have a nice day.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 08:21 PM
You can use Greater Shadow Evocation to produce Contingency. Reach Spell means you don't have to be in melee. Incidentally, Celerity is 4th level, not 2nd.

Is there any reason you needed to sound like a complete jerk in that post, or was that just a bonus?

Innis Cabal
2007-03-21, 08:36 PM
mage slayer...and its accompyning feats...even if you take a five foot step you cant cast....ya your screwed

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 08:39 PM
mage slayer...and its accompyning feats...even if you take a five foot step you cant cast....ya your screwed

Tumble out of range (a level 20 wizard cross-classing the skill can do it fine).

Quickened spells (like teleport).

Not so much.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-21, 08:42 PM
most spells wont work on that build, unless you role very high...so ya, mages will die...since thats the whole idea of the prestige class's...and feats..sorry i dont have my books on me to type it out

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 08:54 PM
Sorry, but that's just not the case. Mage Slayer is a feat (with some follow-ups); Occult Slayer is a PrC. Neither actually keep you safe from mages, although they help a little.

The_Snark
2007-03-21, 08:56 PM
Most spells won't work on that build? Why not? Mage Slayer improves Will saves. By one. Not all that impressive.

Occult Slayer is the fighter's best bet; boost the saves as high as you can, use Spell Reflection, and hope the wizard fails the save against one of his own spells. Of course, that doesn't work for a core-only fighter, or a pure fighter.

The wizard is going to win this one. So far, the consensus has been that if the wizard gets to act (via winning initiative, surviving the fighter's opening blows, or Celerity) the wizard will win. Time Stop. Forcecage. Gate in some balors, Shapechange into a dragon, and laugh. The wizard at this level has so many options that only a charging-based fighter is going to be able to kill this thing.

A lance-wielding fighter atop a griffin cohort might be able to take out the wizard in one round with the right build, and there are other combinations too, but again... if the fighter has to win within one round, there's a pretty definite advantage in the wizard's favor here.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-21, 09:07 PM
mage slayer is in masters of the wild i beleive...and can help against other spells...though you can't have any magic items...ever...

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-21, 10:29 PM
Hmm...thread umpteen bijillion on this topic; a pointless exercise in tryintg to build wholly unrealistic builds to defeat other characters so as to try to circuitously win a powergame argument.

That said; without being too glib;
Assuming we're only going by feat selections; take Leadership, pump up your charisma high enough to get a +4 and attract a Wiz 17 cohort, who's taken Improved Initiative and Danger Sense to ensure his high initiative. Then, have him cast Shapechange on you. Turn into a twenty headed hydra, attack the wizard, and, if he's still alive after that, Shapechange into an Iron Golem to gain spell immunity. Rinse wash and repeat. Meanwhile, have the Wizard prepare to counterspell everything your opponent throws at you.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-21, 10:33 PM
huh....how "glibe" of you...good job being sucked into a "wholly unrealistc compitition" that some guy actually asked for help with

Swordguy
2007-03-22, 07:23 AM
Hmm...thread umpteen bijillion on this topic; a pointless exercise in tryintg to build wholly unrealistic builds to defeat other characters so as to try to circuitously win a powergame argument.


Unrealistic?

Ring. of. Wishes.


Problem solved.

Fizban
2007-03-22, 09:32 AM
The end result is always: Fighter gets magic item trump card, and prays to win initiative.

The wizard can nearly pull off the fight naked, as long as he wins initiative, and if you assume the (perfectly reasonable) fact that he as his hours/level buffs up before the fight starts, then he does win initiative.

So, is the OP looking for tips on what to watch out for when he and his friend do this fight?

Hunter_Rose
2007-03-22, 11:25 AM
An item that bestows high magic resistance could be used instead of an anti-magic field. Buff figher's items out on protections from the different forms of damage (elemental, sonic, acid, etc.). I mean this sounds pretty doable if you use magic items. In a straight out fight with normal items and spells the wizard would win hands down. However if it was a 100' x 100' x 100' cube wouldn't the wizard risk having some blowback from his area-effect spells in the confined space he's casting in? I mean fireball has 60' diameter, and that's more than half the combat area.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 11:34 AM
An item that bestows high magic resistance could be used instead of an anti-magic field. Buff figher's items out on protections from the different forms of damage (elemental, sonic, acid, etc.). I mean this sounds pretty doable if you use magic items. In a straight out fight with normal items and spells the wizard would win hands down. However if it was a 100' x 100' x 100' cube wouldn't the wizard risk having some blowback from his area-effect spells in the confined space he's casting in? I mean fireball has 60' diameter, and that's more than half the combat area.

This is why single-target spells are better than AoEs.

Kioran
2007-03-22, 04:43 PM
Dammit, why canīt the fighter just Charge 200ft. to slap the wizard with a quivering palm, willing him to die instantly and painfully, collapsing in a bloody mess.....

The thing is, much like the Magic trading Card game, about exploiting weaknesses in the balance of the game design to create some ueber-effect from hell. So itīs about wishing rings, Initiative, instant death in the first round, whatever.
For me this just proves, once again, that D&D has some limits and boundaries, which to me implies that characters arenīt meant to loiter around lvl 20, much less surpass it. The narrative simply stops working if the charcters can raze entire cities by themselves, sometimes without expending much effort.
So lvl 20 is, in my humble opinion, meant for the grand finale in a long standing campaign, the showdown to end all showdowns, with lvls 6-16 the most interesting ones.

That said, the fighter can either use Items to emulate a wizard or straight out slaughter him in the first round. Barring that, he can also die.
And now try to imagine making a story or comicstrip from that fight. Would be quite disappointing.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-22, 04:57 PM
Dammit, why canīt the fighter just Charge 200ft. to slap the wizard with a quivering palm, willing him to die instantly and painfully, collapsing in a bloody mess.....

The thing is, much like the Magic trading Card game, about exploiting weaknesses in the balance of the game design to create some ueber-effect from hell. So itīs about wishing rings, Initiative, instant death in the first round, whatever.
For me this just proves, once again, that D&D has some limits and boundaries, which to me implies that characters arenīt meant to loiter around lvl 20, much less surpass it. The narrative simply stops working if the charcters can raze entire cities by themselves, sometimes without expending much effort.
So lvl 20 is, in my humble opinion, meant for the grand finale in a long standing campaign, the showdown to end all showdowns, with lvls 6-16 the most interesting ones.

That said, the fighter can either use Items to emulate a wizard or straight out slaughter him in the first round. Barring that, he can also die.
And now try to imagine making a story or comicstrip from that fight. Would be quite disappointing.
The narrative does not stop at level 20. I've run plently of high level games and even epic games just fine. I've also played in numerous high level and epic games where the story is excellent.

You have to realize that the number of monster based encounters is inversely proportional to your level. The higher the level the less likely you are to have a hack'n'slash game or a random monster encounter. Roleplaying becomes a lot more important at higher levels. You don't clear a dungeon, you plan a war. You don't save a village by killing a bunch of orcs, you use intrigue to accomplish your goals.

High level game play only stops working if you insist on treating it the same as lower level play. At those levels power level doesn't really matter much at all, it is 99% intrigue.


As for the fighter 1 hitting the wizard, he really can't do it. I fighter needs to somehow lower the wizards protections and attack him in the same round.

We were talking about this in another thread, to kill a level 20 wizard woudl require years of ingame planning and a high level rogue. He would have to get close to the wizard with the wizard knowing about him BUT not seeing him as a threat. He then has to wait for or stage an attack in which the wizard protections are brought down by another. Then the rogue acts after the wizard has already gone for the round (and killed the other) by attacking the wizard. He then has to 1 hit the wizard.

A single mistake over 10-20 ingame years and the plan fails. A single bad die roll and the wizard lives. And its still the best chance for a non caster to kill a wizard who is played to his potential.

Zadmah
2007-03-22, 05:56 PM
As for the fighter 1 hitting the wizard, he really can't do it. I fighter needs to somehow lower the wizards protections and attack him in the same round.

We were talking about this in another thread, to kill a level 20 wizard woudl require years of ingame planning and a high level rogue. He would have to get close to the wizard with the wizard knowing about him BUT not seeing him as a threat. He then has to wait for or stage an attack in which the wizard protections are brought down by another. Then the rogue acts after the wizard has already gone for the round (and killed the other) by attacking the wizard. He then has to 1 hit the wizard.

or:
high forgery,move silently and hide skill + some magic items = a wizard spellbook that doesnt work so well anymore
May take a while to plan and gather the materials but its shouldnt take more than a few weeks for a high level character.

after that u could wait for him to use up whatever remaining spells he has and then kill him yourself or watch as he gets killed by someone he thinks he has the spells to beat.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-22, 05:59 PM
or:
high forgery,move silently and hide skill + some magic items = a wizard spellbook that doesnt work so well anymore
May take a while to plan and gather the materials but its shouldnt take more than a few weeks for a high level character.

after that u could wait for him to use up whatever remaining spells he has and then kill him yourself or watch as he gets killed by someone he thinks he has the spells to beat.
...
Stealing and replacing a wizards spell book is even harder than killing him.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-22, 06:04 PM
S'pose you could circumvent wind wall if you had a really large projectile...
Are there any magic items that create big projectiles? Insta-boulders, insta-ballistae? Maybe an enlarging arrow or something?

Fax Celestis
2007-03-22, 06:11 PM
S'pose you could circumvent wind wall if you had a really large projectile...
Are there any magic items that create big projectiles? Insta-boulders, insta-ballistae? Maybe an enlarging arrow or something?

Shrink Item. There's also a spell in Heroes of Battle that makes a ballista fit in your pocket.

Orzel
2007-03-22, 06:13 PM
Only stupid people (people who shouldn't be wizards) and very low level wizards have their spellbooks stolen.

Defeating a high level wizard typically requires high magic, a burst of magic arrows form a hidden spot, a sneaky stab, or years of planning.

Hunter_Rose
2007-03-23, 10:10 AM
Is there a way in 3.5 for a Wizard to be aware of invisible foe's at all times?

In 2 edition my ring of improved invisability and inaudability along with my boots of elvenkind were my best friends. This would allow me to get into range of a caster to strike without detection until I struck. The ring would remove me from sight and sound, and the elven boots would allow me to pass without a trace (also in second edition cloaks of elvenkind would stack with invisibility). I think this would allow a fighter to at least get into melee range with a caster to get the drop on them.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 10:14 AM
Is there a way in 3.5 for a Wizard to be aware of invisible foe's at all times?

Try See Invisibility, which is a low-level spell (rod of extend, lesser: 3,000 gp; Pearl of Power II: 4,000 gp) that lasts 10 minutes/level.

Also various noncore spells that grant things like blindsense (i.e. Listening Lorecall).

Hunter_Rose
2007-03-23, 11:11 AM
Try See Invisibility, which is a low-level spell (rod of extend, lesser: 3,000 gp; Pearl of Power II: 4,000 gp) that lasts 10 minutes/level.

Also various noncore spells that grant things like blindsense (i.e. Listening Lorecall).

Blind fighting and listening would be negated by the in-audible component of the ring. In-audible acts a if a silence 5' radius was cast centered on the wearer.

Is See Invisibility a radius based spell or ray-like based on where the wizard is looking?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 11:15 AM
See Invisibility doesn't have a radius and it's not a ray. It just lets you see anything invisible that you look at.
It can also be made permanent.

Not blind-fighting, Blindsense. Being inaudible doesn't negate the benefits of blindfighting, incidentally.

You can look this stuff up in the SRD (www.d20srd.org).

Hunter_Rose
2007-03-23, 11:30 AM
Not blind-fighting, Blindsense. Being inaudible doesn't negate the benefits of blindfighting, incidentally.

You can look this stuff up in the SRD (www.d20srd.org).

True, but one could argue that pass without a trace might negate vibrations, but not ecco-location. I used to throw werebats all the time at my invisible players just for this reason. I would also use scent based creatures to get around invisibility too, or at least warn the victims of the pc's that something they couldn't see was approaching.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 11:32 AM
True, but one could argue that pass without a trace might negate vibrations, but not ecco-location. I used to throw werebats all the time at my invisible players just for this reason.
One could, but one would be wrong. That's not what Pass Without Trace does.
These spells and abilities have clearly defined effects.


I would also use scent based creatures to get around invisibility too, or at least warn the victims of the pc's that something they couldn't see was approaching.
Scent has clearly-defined effects, too. Creatures with the Scent ability can locate invisible creatures (but they've still got the miss chance when attacking them).

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-23, 02:10 PM
Shrink Item. There's also a spell in Heroes of Battle that makes a ballista fit in your pocket.

...
I think I have to work this into one of my games.

"Say, is that a ballista in your pocket or are you just happy t--OH GOD PIERCING DAMAGE!"

Haedrian
2007-03-26, 04:57 AM
Come on , its not fair that in a fight like this, fighters have a) Cohorts b) Magic Items...

Assume its a one-on-one and the fighter has no scrolls, and he'll have him destroyed by a wish spell on round 1

OR

Fly, this is the easiest way to do it; fly away from the fighter, then attack him with maximised "fireball"

-

There's no way for the fighter to win

Artemician
2007-03-26, 06:09 AM
Come on , its not fair that in a fight like this, fighters have a) Cohorts b) Magic Items...

Assume its a one-on-one and the fighter has no scrolls, and he'll have him destroyed by a wish spell on round 1

OR

Fly, this is the easiest way to do it; fly away from the fighter, then attack him with maximised "fireball"

-

There's no way for the fighter to win

Why is it unfair for a fighter to have Magic Items? D&D is balanced around people spending money to get magic items, take that away and D&D might as well be called CasterGame.

Also, the OP is asking how a Fighter might beat a Wizard, not vice versa. There are a myriad of ways for a Wizard to kill a Fighter, but this is not the right thread to post them.

Triaxx
2007-03-26, 07:15 AM
You're all missing the most obvious solution. 19 levels of wizard and 1 of cleric. Cast Sanctuary, and wait out the wizard.

OR

Advance 30' prepare action. Wizard starts to cast, must make concentration. Repeat.

OR

Fighter appears naked. Wizard is instantly effected with Tasha's Hideous laughter.

Indon
2007-03-26, 08:04 AM
So, what, a Net of Antimagic Field would cost, hmm...


2,000 for the mandatory +1 (which it wouldn't benefit from), plus 300 for the Masterwork (which it would), plus 20 for the net itself, plus a constant or use-activated Antimagic Field...

Antimagic Field's a 6'th level sor/wiz spell, and 11's the first level wizards can cast 6'th level spells, so 2000x6x11, 132,000 for the enchantment itself...


Net of Antimagic Field
Cost: 134,320 GP

So, a ranged touch attack at +1 to net someone, and never throw it at anyone who looks like they could break it (because that'd be a LOT of money gone right there). And if you throw it at someone and they manage to escape out, they're still in the AMF for one more round because breaking out is a full-round action.

If only there were a way to increase a net's max range... As it is, the range is just good enough to be able to snare someone in the net and be outside of the Antimagic Field projected by the net. (Edit: Wait, nix that, AMF has a 10 foot _radius_, doesn't it... hmm)

KoDT69
2007-03-26, 12:25 PM
I hate to disagree with people, but to all of you who say "there's no possible way for a fighter to beat a wizard", get over it. Most of this stems from the wizard being the preferred class of WotC so they gave them all the most powerful crap. Can we at least for one second consider that the Mage is not an all knowing paranoid master of havoc? If it's fair to say that upon entering the wizard is fully buffed and ready to rumble, then so is the fighter. The fighter could plan just as much as the wizard. How about the fighter enters the fight with AMF 50' permanelntly on him already, and equipped with some arrows with AMF 50' also permanently on them, and the wizard has celerity. Big whoop. So the wizard spends all his spells on time stop, buffing, and all the other cheese posted before, but it makes no difference. Now the fighter is free to launch 4 arrows near the corners of the room making it a complete AMF zone and charge up to the wizard, unleashing many many attacks. Hmm, I know you all got some crap about contingencies and wishes and blah blah blah. Fine the fighter also had a ring of wishes and extended his AMF to 200 feet before entering, forget the arrows, and say goodbye to your beloved wizard. And regardless of his preparations, the fight is inevitable and he will be in a confined area at a disadvantage. They will both be locked into mortal combat, and your poor wizard will die. Wow a fighter with a decent INT score that uses it? That can't happen he's just a fighter. To the OP, this is a good one to pull on your wizard-loving friend. I know somebody will chime in with "but AMF isn't common, especially on an item" but guess what, it is the one thing the fighter can spend all his loot on because the armor and weapon investment is unnecessary for this scenario. 20th level wizards aren't supposed to be common either. Now all you reading this and thinking I'm full of crap can lighten up. Everything is theoretical. There's no such thing as IMPOSSIBLE in D&D, especially being IMPOSSIBLE to kill a wizard! :smallfurious:

elliott20
2007-03-26, 12:57 PM
steps to summoning emperor tippy

1. create a thread about wizards vs. ANYTHING
2. say that wizards can't do it
3. profit

normalscreename
2007-03-26, 04:01 PM
Here's a simple scenario where the fighter wins commonly. Buy a ring of 3 wishes, get dex as high as possible (+5 from lv 20, +6 belt of perfect excellence, +6 gloves of dex, +5 from whatever the dex manual is, a couple ioun stones, and anything else you can think of). Fighter will have about 40-50 dex so he will almost definatelys win ini. He uses a wish spell to remove the wizard from existance.
There a 1 round fight where the fighter wins 99% of the time.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-26, 04:25 PM
I hate to disagree with people, but to all of you who say "there's no possible way for a fighter to beat a wizard", get over it. Most of this stems from the wizard being the preferred class of WotC so they gave them all the most powerful crap. Can we at least for one second consider that the Mage is not an all knowing paranoid master of havoc? If it's fair to say that upon entering the wizard is fully buffed and ready to rumble, then so is the fighter.
How exactly is the fighter getting buffed?


The fighter could plan just as much as the wizard. How about the fighter enters the fight with AMF 50' permanelntly on him already, and equipped with some arrows with AMF 50' also permanently on them, and the wizard has celerity.
You do realize that an item of AMF isn't RAW? Not a single one exists in any published WoTC book that I am aware of. And if you want to have custom magic items following the guidelines then I will decimate you. The wizard gets twice as much gold as you to craft his own items.


Big whoop. So the wizard spends all his spells on time stop, buffing, and all the other cheese posted before, but it makes no difference. Now the fighter is free to launch 4 arrows near the corners of the room making it a complete AMF zone and charge up to the wizard, unleashing many many attacks.
...

First off, how are you getting within 50 feet of the wizard? Second, what makes you think a wizard would come into a room with you. Third, where are you getting these AMF items of 50 foot perm ant duration. AMF is only a 10 foot radius.


Hmm, I know you all got some crap about contingencies and wishes and blah blah blah. Fine the fighter also had a ring of wishes and extended his AMF to 200 feet before entering, forget the arrows, and say goodbye to your beloved wizard.
Where are you getting all the money for all of this stuff? And what makes you think a wish can increase the standard radius of a spell by a factor of 20?

And do to CoP the wizard will know about your attempting to attack him in advance. And where are you getting a caster to make your AMF items for you? Those are risky items to give to a fighter.


And regardless of his preparations, the fight is inevitable and he will be in a confined area at a disadvantage. They will both be locked into mortal combat, and your poor wizard will die. Wow a fighter with a decent INT score that uses it? That can't happen he's just a fighter.

The wizard (assuming you got him in a 50 by 50 foot room that is completly blanketed in AMF's) runs through the door and once out of the AMF he uses his quickened timestop to get time. He then casts forcecage on you and all of the sudden your trapped for the next 40 hours.


To the OP, this is a good one to pull on your wizard-loving friend. I know somebody will chime in with "but AMF isn't common, especially on an item" but guess what, it is the one thing the fighter can spend all his loot on because the armor and weapon investment is unnecessary for this scenario. 20th level wizards aren't supposed to be common either. Now all you reading this and thinking I'm full of crap can lighten up. Everything is theoretical. There's no such thing as IMPOSSIBLE in D&D, especially being IMPOSSIBLE to kill a wizard! :smallfurious:

Its impossible for any character that you would play to kill a wizard that I played to the maximum of my abilities if the game was pure RAW.

The only thing that stands a chance in hell is a rogue who has spent years getting close and happens to be in the right place at the right time and he gets exactly 1 round to attempt to drop the wizard.




steps to summoning emperor tippy

1. create a thread about wizards vs. ANYTHING
2. say that wizards can't do it
3. profit

Hehe. Nope. Create a thread about the RAW and then claim that per RAW a non caster can defeat a well played wizard.

And this isn't fark. The profit step can be left off.




Here's a simple scenario where the fighter wins commonly. Buy a ring of 3 wishes, get dex as high as possible (+5 from lv 20, +6 belt of perfect excellence, +6 gloves of dex, +5 from whatever the dex manual is, a couple ioun stones, and anything else you can think of). Fighter will have about 40-50 dex so he will almost definatelys win ini. He uses a wish spell to remove the wizard from existance.
There a 1 round fight where the fighter wins 99% of the time.

What is the belt of perfect excellence from and does it stack with gloves of dex? Ioun stones don't stack with them selves.

And with MoP the wizard can get +20 to his Ini roll (never came to a conclusion one way or the other whether it coudl actually be used on Ini checks).

Or cercity, no matter what your Ini the wizard goes first.

TempusCCK
2007-03-26, 04:43 PM
Meh, the basics for forging items are in the Core rules, therefore everyone can do it. It's assumed that you have the amount of wealth general to your character class at level 20, it was also assumed that the wizard and the fighter are already in the room with no means of escape, as is stated in the first post of this particular thread.

You cannot cast a Forcecage inside of an AMF because it will be surpressed until the field expires or leaves the area where the forcecage was cast, which would leave the fighter free.

A wish CAN act as an Extend Spell.

If you enter an Antimagic field while TimeStopped the Time Stop ends.

If it's assumed the wizard gets to buff, then a fighter gets to buff as well, with a ring of three wishes you could, for instance, say "I wish the area around me was affected by AMF" then "I wish the AMF was permanent" then "I wish my permanent AMF was however big" Just one little example.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-26, 04:53 PM
Meh, the basics for forging items are in the Core rules, therefore everyone can do it. It's assumed that you have the amount of wealth general to your character class at level 20, it was also assumed that the wizard and the fighter are already in the room with no means of escape.
Those things in the DMG are guidelines. NOT RAW. RAW its impossible to make a custom magic item.

And no it is not assumed that both the wizard and fighter are in a room with no way out. Get the wizard in the room and then we can talk.


You cannot cast a Forcecage inside of an AMF because it will be surpressed until the field expires or leaves the area where the forcecage was cast, which would leave the fighter free.Incorrect. Go read up on what AMF can and can't do. It doesn't suppress most force effects. And it is unclear whether you may even be able to cast a spell like forcecage while inside an AMF. But if you are outside of it the rules are quite clear. It can be cast in the AMF and it isn't suppressed.


A wish CAN act as an Extend Spell.Where does it say that? And extend does not increase a spells radius by a factor of 20.


If you enter an Antimagic field while TimeStopped the Time Stop ends.Incorrect again. Its impossible to enter an AMF while under the affects of a Tiemstop.



If it's assumed the wizard gets to buff, then a fighter gets to buff as well, with a ring of three wishes you could, for instance, say "I wish the area around me was affected by AMF" then "I wish the AMF was permanent" then "I wish my permanent AMF was however big" Just one little example.

The wizards buff last all day or longer and are cast every day. Can the fighter do that? And you can't use wish like that without DM fiat. Wish has a very specific list of things it can do without DM permission. And not a single one of the things you asked for can be done by wish.

Well perhaps the first one but that woudl only make the area around you at the time you cast the spell an AMF. So where do you plan on getting 3 rounds to use your ring of 3 wishes to do all this?


Go read the rules if you actually want to have this debate. Because right now you have yet to get a single point right.




http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/9627/postlg5.jpg



I think I've figured out a way for a pure SRD fighter to beat a pure SRD wizard regardless of iniative. I could be wrong, but I don't see any large holes.

Rules, 100 by 100 by 100 inescapable room.
Infinite buff time, but you can only use one rest period's worth of spells.

Now come up with a way to get a wizard into a 100x100x100 foot inescapable room.


Fighter, LvL 16 Half Celestial Fighter.
Feats, Leadership
Stats minimum 10 CHA.

Half Celestial is necessary for flight.
Leadership gets you a lvl 11 minimum wizard or (protection or magic domain) cleric as a cohort.Heres another problem. Your cohort is a caster. The objective was for a level 20 fighter to defeat a level 20 wizard. Not for a fighter and his cohort to defeat a level 20 wizard.

And leadership can only be taken with the DMs permission. And nothing is stopping the wizard from taking it as well.


Before battle your cohort casts anti-magic field.AMF is self only. Thanks. Your cohort just negated himself.


I didn't have time to think of something to counter it from the wizard's side yet.TK sphere, Force Cage, Gate, Shapecahnge, Timestop. Need I continue?

EDIT: He deleted his post, luckily I could screen cap it. Its in the spoiler.

KoDT69
2007-03-26, 05:07 PM
How exactly is the fighter getting buffed?
Magic items, party casters, whatever. No fighter is 20th level and does not have an adventuring party in D&D. Any intelligently played character can plan ahead, just like your paranoid wizard.

You do realize that an item of AMF isn't RAW?
Yah I know, OK, but there are provisions per RAW to create one.

And if you want to have custom magic items following the guidelines then I will decimate you.
Thanks for your elitist attitude and general assumption that just because I can attempt an arguement YOU don't agree with, that I must be incompetant.

First off, how are you getting within 50 feet of the wizard?
With his feet. DUH!

Second, what makes you think a wizard would come into a room with you.
Well obviously you didn't read the OP, it is a 100x100x100ft room. The fighter and wizard are being put in it to fight, they don't get a choice. There was no mention of a door your scardeycat paranoid wizbanger can escape from. It was meant to be a sealed space with the intention of not just walking out a door. Besides, if the wizard retreats he should be counted as defeated anyways.

Third, where are you getting these AMF items of 50 foot perm ant duration. AMF is only a 10 foot radius.
A properly worded wish. :smallsigh: Or how about UMD skill and some scrolls cast on his arrows and his belt or something worn right before they enter the room. All the spells are useless because the AMF 10ft still overcomes the forcecage and the windwall, hitting the poor wizard and dropping him for falling damage if he was flying and nullifying contingencies.

Where are you getting all the money for all of this stuff?
Wealth by level. Killing stuff. Same as the wizard. :smallcool:

And what makes you think a wish can increase the standard radius of a spell by a factor of 20?
Because if it's worded properly, it does. :smallcool:

And do (I think you mean DUE) to CoP the wizard will know about your attempting to attack him in advance. And where are you getting a caster to make your AMF items for you?
The fighter's party caster. A casting cohort. A hireling mage/sorcerer... whatever. Just because he can't make an item does not exclude him having resources. :smallcool:

The wizard (assuming you got him in a 50 by 50 foot room that is completly blanketed in AMF's) runs through the door and once out of the AMF he uses his quickened timestop to get time.
Retreat = fighter wins in this case. Deal with it. :smallconfused:

He then casts forcecage on you and all of the sudden your trapped for the next 40 hours.
AMF... guess it helps if you repeat it... AMF :smallbiggrin:

Its impossible for any character that you would play to kill a wizard that I played to the maximum of my abilities if the game was pure RAW.
Because you are far superior to me? Cuz I'm so soopid? No. Because I state something contradicting what you would like to read. This is in fact a hypothetical scenario in which I'm stating a case. No real game ever has this happen. I'm not a wizard basher in the least. I agree they are way overly powerful and capable of doing anything, but I maintain the fact that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE regardless what you say. Seriously, drop the superiority complex. :smallmad:

The only thing that stands a chance in hell is a rogue who has spent years getting close and happens to be in the right place at the right time and he gets exactly 1 round to attempt to drop the wizard.
Or he just learns to use superior tactics or the wizard realizes that all those divinations are bothersome to the gods per RAW mind you, since it is in the spell description that they dislike the CoP pestering. Eventually they will smite you themselves. I know the RAW doesn't say that, so it falls to Rule 0 in the DMG... which in turn for that game with that DM makes it RAW since Rule 0 is in the book. Wow argue it all day I know you will. I just get tired of all the wizard lovers arguing it to the death just to argue because you like wizards BECAUSE THEY GOT CHEESEY in 3rd edition. :smallsigh:

TempusCCK
2007-03-26, 05:10 PM
Yes, it is assumed that both are in a room that can't be escaped, and it is using the Core rules, last time I checked, DMG was Core. That is, of course, if you read the first post in this particular thread. Seriously. This particular scenario is not RAW.

A wish can enlarge a spell because a wish can duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower, and you craft a Rod of Enlarge Spell by having a feat that a wizard can take before his fifth level. If the rules of magic are at all congruent, this would make sense. Being as wish is a somewhat flexible spell, you could have it extend a little more than a regular extended spell, DM's discretion, but I doubt they'd let you get away with a factor of 20.

"An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration."

You cannot enter an area effected by an antimagic field, you figure because it would mess with the timestop spell, but I guess that's up to individual interpretation. But in the middle of a AMF you couldn't cast TimeStop, and when TimeStop ends, the effect is still there, stopping your forcecape and other spells.

The spell description of AMF or Forcecage don't specify that it is immune to AMF, just dispel magic.

Either way, you're aruging RAW, while the scenario presented is the Core rules.

By the way, where did you read that force effects are immune to AMF? I've read through both spell descriptions several times and can find nothing of the sort. Please, correct my not-knowing-the-rules ignorance.

KoDT69
2007-03-26, 05:17 PM
Fine, how about a fighter with dual weilding rods of cancellation, and some race with a quick movement or wings? Hmm wow that beats forcecage...

But I guess some people might just be happier if I ignore the OP's request for a decent fighter and just say "oh how silly of me to argue, wizard = win, no matter what". There feel better?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-26, 05:34 PM
How exactly is the fighter getting buffed?
Magic items, party casters, whatever. No fighter is 20th level and does not have an adventuring party in D&D. Any intelligently played character can plan ahead, just like your paranoid wizard.
Not whatever. You have to come up with all of that information. You can't assume it.

And you don't get a party. My point is that no non caster can defeat a well played wizard on his or her own. A party is not on your own.


You do realize that an item of AMF isn't RAW?
Yah I know, OK, but there are provisions per RAW to create one.
Use activated True Strike is 2K. And you don't want to start a custom magic item arms race because I would win.


And if you want to have custom magic items following the guidelines then I will decimate you.
Thanks for your elitist attitude and general assumption that just because I can attempt an arguement YOU don't agree with, that I must be incompetant.
No. I am just very, very good at breaking those guidelines. And a wizard who can make his own can get a lot more of them.


First off, how are you getting within 50 feet of the wizard?
With his feet. DUH!
HAHA. Come back to this debate after you actually get a firm grounding in what a wizard can do.


Second, what makes you think a wizard would come into a room with you.
Well obviously you didn't read the OP, it is a 100x100x100ft room. The fighter and wizard are being put in it to fight, they don't get a choice. There was no mention of a door your scardeycat paranoid wizbanger can escape from. It was meant to be a sealed space with the intention of not just walking out a door. Besides, if the wizard retreats he should be counted as defeated anyways.
Incorrect. A tactical retreat 50 or so feet is not a defeat. And the OP's situation was horrendously flawed. And my wizard can win anyways.

He acts first and then forcecages you.


Third, where are you getting these AMF items of 50 foot perm ant duration. AMF is only a 10 foot radius.
A properly worded wish. :smallsigh: Or how about UMD skill and some scrolls cast on his arrows and his belt or something worn right before they enter the room. All the spells are useless because the AMF 10ft still overcomes the forcecage and the windwall, hitting the poor wizard and dropping him for falling damage if he was flying and nullifying contingencies.

READ THE DAMM RULES.

I'm done with this F***ing debate if you can't even learn what spells do when you claim to use them. AMF can't be cast on an item. It is an emanation centered on you.

And it doesn't affect forcecage or TK sphere.


Certain spells, such as wall of force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm), prismatic sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm), and prismatic wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm), remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions).


Where are you getting all the money for all of this stuff?
Wealth by level. Killing stuff. Same as the wizard. :smallcool:
Post a equipment list. With the prices for everything. You get 760,000 GP to spend.


And what makes you think a wish can increase the standard radius of a spell by a factor of 20?
Because if it's worded properly, it does. :smallcool:
Nope. Wish is quite clear on what it can do. And what you want it to do requires DM fiat which has no place in this debate.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm



And do (I think you mean DUE) to CoP the wizard will know about your attempting to attack him in advance. And where are you getting a caster to make your AMF items for you?
The fighter's party caster. A casting cohort. A hireling mage/sorcerer... whatever. Just because he can't make an item does not exclude him having resources. :smallcool:
YOU DON'T GET A PARTY. It is 1 fighter vs. 1 wizard. That is it. No more people at all. On either side.


The wizard (assuming you got him in a 50 by 50 foot room that is completly blanketed in AMF's) runs through the door and once out of the AMF he uses his quickened timestop to get time.
Retreat = fighter wins in this case. Deal with it. :smallconfused:
Not really. He runs back 50 feet and then uses timestop followed by FC and wins.


He then casts forcecage on you and all of the sudden your trapped for the next 40 hours.
AMF... guess it helps if you repeat it... AMF :smallbiggrin:
Again, READ THE DAMM SPELL


Its impossible for any character that you would play to kill a wizard that I played to the maximum of my abilities if the game was pure RAW.
Because you are far superior to me? Cuz I'm so soopid? No. Because I state something contradicting what you would like to read. This is in fact a hypothetical scenario in which I'm stating a case. No real game ever has this happen. I'm not a wizard basher in the least. I agree they are way overly powerful and capable of doing anything, but I maintain the fact that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE regardless what you say. Seriously, drop the superiority complex. :smallmad:

It isn't a superiority complex. You clearly have yet to grasp some relatively simple rules about spells such as AMF. If we both built characters right now and played out the OPs scenario with only RAW I woudl win in the first round.


The only thing that stands a chance in hell is a rogue who has spent years getting close and happens to be in the right place at the right time and he gets exactly 1 round to attempt to drop the wizard.
Or he just learns to use superior tactics or the wizard realizes that all those divinations are bothersome to the gods per RAW mind you, since it is in the spell description that they dislike the CoP pestering. Eventually they will smite you themselves. I know the RAW doesn't say that, so it falls to Rule 0 in the DMG... which in turn for that game with that DM makes it RAW since Rule 0 is in the book. Wow argue it all day I know you will. I just get tired of all the wizard lovers arguing it to the death just to argue because you like wizards BECAUSE THEY GOT CHEESEY in 3rd edition. :smallsigh:

Sigh. How come the one supporting the fighter always falsl back on DM fiat? Oh right. Because they can't win per RAW.




Yes, it is assumed that both are in a room that can't be escaped, and it is using the Core rules, last time I checked, DMG was Core. That is, of course, if you read the first post in this particular thread. Seriously. This particular scenario is not RAW.

A wish can enlarge a spell because a wish can duplicate any spell of 8th level or lower, and you craft a Rod of Enlarge Spell by having a feat that a wizard can take before his fifth level. If the rules of magic are at all congruent, this would make sense. Being as wish is a somewhat flexible spell, you could have it extend a little more than a regular extended spell, DM's discretion, but I doubt they'd let you get away with a factor of 20.

"An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration."

You cannot enter an area effected by an antimagic field, you figure because it would mess with the timestop spell, but I guess that's up to individual interpretation. But in the middle of a AMF you couldn't cast TimeStop, and when TimeStop ends, the effect is still there, stopping your forcecape and other spells.

The spell description of AMF or Forcecage don't specify that it is immune to AMF, just dispel magic.

Either way, you're aruging RAW, while the scenario presented is the Core rules.

By the way, where did you read that force effects are immune to AMF? I've read through both spell descriptions several times and can find nothing of the sort. Please, correct my not-knowing-the-rules ignorance.


Like a wall of force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm), but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.


The sphere is not subject to damage of any sort except from a rod of cancellation, a rod of negation, a disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) spell, or a targeted dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) spell. These effects destroy the sphere without harm to the subject.


The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm). However, disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) spell.


Certain spells, such as wall of force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm), prismatic sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm), and prismatic wall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticWall.htm), remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions).

Those should be enough.

And a Wish can't enlarge a spell by a factor of 20. Not with out DM fiat.




Fine, how about a fighter with dual weilding rods of cancellation, and some race with a quick movement or wings? Hmm wow that beats forcecage...

But I guess some people might just be happier if I ignore the OP's request for a decent fighter and just say "oh how silly of me to argue, wizard = win, no matter what". There feel better?

*sigh*

How did those rods survive the disjunction that the wizard used as his first move?

TempusCCK
2007-03-26, 05:39 PM
You're talking about manifesting a ForceCage inside an AMF, which would definately stop it. That is talking about AMF negating existing Walls of Force and ForceCages.

And yes, I did mention that it can't extend it by a factor of 20.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-26, 05:42 PM
You're talking about manifesting a ForceCage inside an AMF, which would definately stop it. That is talking about AMF negating existing Walls of Force and ForceCages.

And yes, I did mention that it can't extend it by a factor of 20.
The CharOps boards at WoTC disagree with you. So does CustServe.

The text later in the spell negates that part.


remain unaffected by antimagic field

AMF can't affect a forcecage at all in any way. It can't suppress one ever or affect one in any way ever.

KoDT69
2007-03-26, 05:59 PM
No. I am just very, very good at breaking those guidelines. And a wizard who can make his own can get a lot more of them.
I can respect this and tell from your posts that it is true. I never conceded that fact. Emperor, you are a crafty guy with a vast knowledge. I'm not trying to make it me versus you. For the lack of RAW knowledge, I have limited time to invest and almost no money for it. I own a 3.0 PHB and a 3.0 MM, that's it. Other than that I use the SRD when I can. I am normally good at finding loopholes and am fairly certain that I can find a bajillion loopholes in the RAW, if I wanted to invest the time. The time I spend, I devote to working on my current running campaign to have fun. I could care less how Pun-Pun wins, he doesn't exist im my campaign. And when I refer to AMF, technically I didn't even realize it was a spell with limitations, I meant a true null magic zone, one in which magic gets nullified regardless of conditions. OK then so for this scenario Tippy, why don't you use your experience to fight the other side? I'm sure you're capable and have the time. I missed the whole first 5 years of 3E, so I'm still trying to catch up.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-26, 06:03 PM
I never played 3E.

And I'm not too good at fighters. You want Bears With Lasers for something like that.

Indon
2007-03-26, 06:30 PM
Uh, minor point, but Forcecage does not appear to be immune to supression by an Antimagic Field. Wall of Force is, as is specified in the spell description, but the description for Forcecage states neither that it is specifically immune to AMF (the spell desc for AMF notes that a spell must specify this to be immune), nor does it specify it inherits Wall of Force's immunity (while it does specify that it inherits resistance to Dispel Magic).

Of course, this could just be a case of Errata/Wizards not realizing what it writes in its' books.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-26, 06:35 PM
It was close enough for the CharOps boards to allow it. But if you don't want that just use the TK sphere. It says that it is immune.

KoDT69
2007-03-26, 06:40 PM
3E = D&D 3.0 incase you were wondering about my previous post. I don't have the 3.5 stuff, so my Ray of Enfeeblecheese says Fort save negates! :smallwink:

TempusCCK
2007-03-26, 07:21 PM
Obviously that's another point that's up for interpretation, depending on how you read the text, and being as ForceCage is remarkably broken, in my campaign I would definately rule that it isn't immune to supression.

Duke of URL
2007-03-28, 01:35 PM
Okay... the best way to have a chance at this is to maximize spell resistance, ergo...

Pixie, Fighter(20)

Abilities STR 18, INT 14, WIS 12, DEX 22, CON 14, CHA 14
Initiative: +10
Movement: 20', Fly 60' (good)
AC: 25 (Leather Armor, +6 DEX, +5 enhancement, +1 size, +1 natural)
BAB: 20
Full Attack: Adamantine Kukri +5 Speed, Bane(wizard's race) +34/+34/+29/+24/+19 (main hand), Adamantine Kukri +5 Speed, Bane(wizard's race) +34/+34/+29/+24 (off-hand)
Damage: 1d3 + 13 (+2d6 against caster's racial type) Critical 15-20/x3
Saving Throws: Fort 16, Ref 14, Will 10
Special Attacks: Irresistible Dance (CL 8) 1x/day, Sleep Arrow (DC 14, Fort) at will, Entangle (DC 13, Ref) 1x/day
Special Qualities: Spell Resistance 35, DR 10/cold iron, Permanent Image (DC 18, Will) 1x/day, Greater Invisibility 1x/day, Low Light Vision
Feats: Dodge*, Weapon Finesse*, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, (4 others), Two-Weapon Fighting+, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting+, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting+, Weapon Focus(Kukri)+, Greater Weapon Focus(Kukri)+, Weapon Specialization(Kukri)+, Greater Weapon Specialization(Kukri)+, Improved Critical(Kukri)+, Improved Initiative+, Combat Relfexes+, Blind Fight+ [*racial bonus feat, +fighter bonus feat]
Skills: (92 skill points) Racial bonuses: +4 Hide, +2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot
LA: +6
[All DCs are CHA based]

The above assume no ability-boosting items, which of course, is a bit ridiculous, and the opportunity to procure two Kukris pretty much especially designed to fight the opponent.

With an SR of 35, this fighter at least has a chance to make it to the caster before getting totally minced up.

TempusCCK
2007-03-28, 01:49 PM
A though occurs to me, even if you do get a TK Sphere or ForceCage around the fighter, what then? If he has an extended, permanent anti-magic field, the best you've done is keep him from killing you for a few rounds.

A fighter will almost always make the save for TK Sphere anyway, doing anything to him from there is practically impossible.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-28, 08:04 PM
You can raise the TK Sphere at a rate of 60 feet per round. How many times can the fighter take 20d6 falling damage? And the forcecage lasts 40 hours. I'm sure a wizard could come up with something to do in that time.

Demented
2007-03-28, 08:22 PM
Have the fighter suffocate in the forcecage. It's the usual modus operandi for Wizards-Are-Better-Than-Fighters arguments. Which, incidentally, are really This-Spell-Is-Overpowered and Fighters-Belong-In-Dungeons arguments.

Unfortunately, the TK sphere won't allow you to damage anything with falling damage. You can raise it to an arbitrary height and then dismiss the sphere, but 8th-level spell slots are expensive.

Kioran
2007-03-29, 03:01 AM
You can raise the TK Sphere at a rate of 60 feet per round. How many times can the fighter take 20d6 falling damage? And the forcecage lasts 40 hours. I'm sure a wizard could come up with something to do in that time.

only 10d6. You only have 100ft. , not quite enough for 20d6. Besides, unlike a wimpy wizard, a Fighter can jump, further reducing the damge by 2d6.
The solution to the Forcecage problematic is easy though: the spell fails if the creature is to large to be contained - which means 30ft. for an empowered Forcecage. Simply get yourself a giant....a furious giant. Okay, only a cloud Giant comes over 20ft. in some cases, and heīd have to hold his left arm straight up all the time, which would look silly - but doesnīt look to silly if he uses the right arm on the mage after that, hrhrhr. or, even better, heīd quaff a potion of enlarge person and smash the wizard with enlarged fists. It is in conflict with the AMF, but if you are able to finish the job in time(with a huge Greataxe or such) itīd be worth it.
Besides, you would be large enough to swat the wizard with 1 or 2 strikes.

That doesnīt solve the timestop dilemma, but you cant be forcecaged. And if you use an AMF for protection, you will be pratically invulnerable most of the time. You donīt need a magical weapon to hit a wizard :smallcool:

Demented
2007-03-29, 03:24 AM
A furious giant fighter encased in a permanent anti-magic field.... This is getting interesting.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-29, 11:36 AM
only 10d6. You only have 100ft. , not quite enough for 20d6. Besides, unlike a wimpy wizard, a Fighter can jump, further reducing the damge by 2d6.
100 Feet+10 feet per caster level. So at CL 20 that is 300 feet. Enough for 20d6.


The solution to the Forcecage problematic is easy though: the spell fails if the creature is to large to be contained - which means 30ft. for an empowered Forcecage. Simply get yourself a giant....a furious giant. Okay, only a cloud Giant comes over 20ft. in some cases, and heīd have to hold his left arm straight up all the time, which would look silly - but doesnīt look to silly if he uses the right arm on the mage after that, hrhrhr. or, even better, heīd quaff a potion of enlarge person and smash the wizard with enlarged fists. It is in conflict with the AMF, but if you are able to finish the job in time(with a huge Greataxe or such) itīd be worth it.
Besides, you would be large enough to swat the wizard with 1 or 2 strikes.

If the thing is that big and has a permanent AMF then you go to option number 2. Get on your phantom steed and stay at the top of the room. Your 100 feet up. Does the giant have a range of 70 feet? Once up there you cast MMM and retreat in there for 8 hours to rest and re prepare spells. Fill your slots with Wall of Force and Permanency.

First split the room in half. At CL 20 you can create a 25 foot long, 20 foot high wall of force. Thats enough to bisect the room. Make those permanent. Now about 10 feet above those walls repeat the process. And another 10 feet for good measure.

Now that the giant is trapped on one side of the room you go back and rest up on the other. Then you go and bisect one half of the room so that the giant is trapped in one quarter. Repeat until the giant can't move at all.

Then use Temporal Stasis to sleep until the giant dies of hunger. You only age a day for every year that passes. You have wasted a bunch of XP. But you won. Now go kill a dragon to recover the XP and get some gold.




That doesnīt solve the timestop dilemma, but you cant be forcecaged. And if you use an AMF for protection, you will be pratically invulnerable most of the time. You donīt need a magical weapon to hit a wizard :smallcool:
Yeah but you need to be able to fly as an EX ability.

Telonius
2007-03-29, 11:53 AM
AMF is self only. Thanks. Your cohort just negated himself.



Well, I suppose the cohort could have improved familiar, and get a pseudodragon, then cast AMF on the familiar... still, probably not going to be of much use.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-29, 12:32 PM
I'd comb every D&D book in existence to find some sort of countermeasure for divination spells. Because if you can't counter the wizard's divinations and ability to know what you're gonna do before you do it, you're hosed. A vampire fighter might have a shot with all his immunities, but even then you need some sort of counter for divination, not to mention Time Stop.

EDIT: Assuming you manage to win initiative, Drow knockout poison, or some other sleep/stun/immobilize through a fort save smeared on your weapon would give you your best shot at dropping a wizard in one hit. (See kids, even fighters are better off with save-or-suck than direct damage!)

Reinboom
2007-03-29, 12:41 PM
Eyes to the Sky [Spelltouched]

of course, it being a feat from unearthed arcana and this only allows core material. That won't work.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-03-29, 01:58 PM
Well, before this goes further, I think some ground rules should be established. (Cuz frankly, people are coming into this thing with differing expectations, and it's causing some needless conflict.)

Plus I just like making rules. :D I'm working on this under this set of assumptions:

0: No GM fudgery. We do this by the book.

1: No Wish. Or Limited Wish. If those are allowed, whoever gets one off first wins. We've established that, so let's say neither of them can cast it or "ring" it. No Mordenkainen's Disjunction Either, especially since when using it the Wizard runs a risk of losing his spellcaster abilities... (That, and if the wizard got it off succesfully, the Fighter- being a heavily gear based class- would be gimped, though hey, the wizard just wasted a turn casting Disjunction, and the fighter still has a sword.)

2: No Parties, though Cohorts and familiars and the like from feats should be allowed. (I mean, what's to say the Fighter or Wizard can't be mounted?)
So in short, if you spend money on it and it can fight, you can't bring it with you. (This one's kind of a grey area, regardless.)

3: Magic items not able to be created by the fighter or wizard in question should be allowed, though let's go with the 760,000 gp limit mentioned earlier in this thread. Wizards buy items they don't have the spells for quite often. However, I don't think Item creation feats should be allowed- as doing so would effectively double the amount of Gold the wizard has. (And it'd probably take a level or three's worth of XP to craft 760,000 worth of items.)

4: No Artefacts, Major minor or otherwise either. It has to be something with an assignable GP price- as the DMG says, Artefacts should only come into a game via a DM's Discretion, and if you allowed them, you might as well allow Wish. (Hey look, I have Mordenkainen's Pocket Watch- it gives me Spell Stow Away: Time stop!)

5: No wierd Metaploys. No going back in time and deleting your opponent from history, no replacing the Wizard's spellbook with a fake, No punching the other character's player in the grill, nothing like that.

6: Let's give this a reasonable time limit of, say, 10 rounds. 1 minute. At level 20, fighter VS wizard, this will probably be done in half that time. Why? This is about killing your opponent in combat, not teleporting 100 years into the future where your opponent has died of a combination of hunger, old age, and boredom. (That's what, 525,948,767 rounds?)
If neither fighter is dead or dying within the given limit, it's a draw. If one leaves the area (by say, being Imprisoned or teleporting or something) then they lose.


7: Don't forget the point of this thread was to find ways to have a Warrior defeat a Wizard. Not ways to make the Wizard utterly invincible against Fighters.

8: And for the love of pete, could someone list what Rulebooks are we going by here? I'm just going by the Player Handbook 3,5 and DMG 3.)


Now that that's been said, I think a Fighter with a Ring of Antimagic Field (Even if it's a once-per-day item, 20 round duration) would stand a MUCH better chance than one without. It'd pretty much ruin the Wizard's offensive options, since the only spells not affected by them are Wall of Force, And the two Prismatic Spells to my knowledge. (Thus, those pesky walls will still be a problem, keep in mind the wizard will have a hard time getting at the fighter through them...) So, yeah, I'd suggest starting out by giving the Fighter a Ring of Anti Magic Field, 3 charges a day, 20 rounds or something.

Though to be honest, the fight's going to be about who gets Initiative anyway. (Given that the Fighter can probably 1HKO the wizard, and the Wizard can cast Time Stop or Force Wall or something equally cheese if he gets a turn in.)

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-29, 03:13 PM
Living Spell 15 / Axiomatic 1 (min 3 INT, so can have class levels) / Winged Template 2 (gives fly speed)/ Fighter 2 (I know it has a fairly awesome load of monstrous HD+LA, but it is a pure fighter).

Make Living Spell -> Outlands planar bubble. No magic/psionics/items/etc, including Salient Divine Abilities. MotP says so. This does, however, range around the debate as to which bit of the Concordant Plane of the Outlands you bring in in the bubble. The plane is infinite, but within 100 miles of the spire the above effect comes into play. Fly straight at the wizard, walking through his force effects (the Spire's effect trumps all, I would think), use your engulf ability to debuff him, and then bludgeon the wizard to death with some large power attacking weapon.

Books
Eberron
MotP
Savage Species (although I'm sure I could find a better way of giving Ex wings)

Okay, this is basically a way of making a walking 'UR WZARD TRICKS R PWNED' field, and would suffer against, say, a gated in monster, but it might just work... :smallwink:

Kioran
2007-03-29, 03:36 PM
So now we have it - Munchkin on Munchkin, encyclopedic knowledge of the rules against a propensity for demented plans and an eye for disregarded circumstances :smallcool:


100 Feet+10 feet per caster level. So at CL 20 that is 300 feet. Enough for 20d6.

Which doesnīt make the room(a 100ft. Cube) any larger.



If the thing is that big and has a permanent AMF then you go to option number 2. Get on your phantom steed and stay at the top of the room. Your 100 feet up. Does the giant have a range of 70 feet? Once up there you cast MMM and retreat in there for 8 hours to rest and re prepare spells. Fill your slots with Wall of Force and Permanency.

Take some winged boots(arenīt that expensive), fly up there and dispel the mages MMM(There should ba an item for that, perhaps a ROD of Cancellation. Otherwise Iīd create one with some charges via the rules listed in the D20srd). As soon as he comes out there, give him a hearty embrace and activate the AMF. KA-SLAM!!!
That would be the piledriver of the century, thoguh itīd hurt yourself quite a bit.



First split the room in half. At CL 20 you can create a 25 foot long, 20 foot high wall of force. Thats enough to bisect the room. Make those permanent. Now about 10 feet above those walls repeat the process. And another 10 feet for good measure.

Now that the giant is trapped on one side of the room you go back and rest up on the other. Then you go and bisect one half of the room so that the giant is trapped in one quarter. Repeat until the giant can't move at all.

Then use Temporal Stasis to sleep until the giant dies of hunger. You only age a day for every year that passes. You have wasted a bunch of XP. But you won. Now go kill a dragon to recover the XP and get some gold.

If the giant still has the dispelling Item, that tactic would be void. It even spare the change to make it a command word activated Item with repeated use. That would cut a lrage chunk out of your budget, but itīs feasible.
Otherwise, a Ring of Sustenance prevents dying of Hunger and is dirt cheap.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-29, 03:54 PM
So now we have it - Munchkin on Munchkin, encyclopedic knowledge of the rules against a propensity for demented plans and an eye for disregarded circumstances :smallcool:



Which doesnīt make the room(a 100ft. Cube) any larger.
True. Wasn't thinking of that.


Take some winged boots(arenīt that expensive), fly up there and dispel the mages MMM(There should ba an item for that, perhaps a ROD of Cancellation. Otherwise Iīd create one with some charges via the rules listed in the D20srd). As soon as he comes out there, give him a hearty embrace and activate the AMF. KA-SLAM!!!
That would be the piledriver of the century, thoguh itīd hurt yourself quite a bit.

Nope. Remember the permanent AMF field? You get no magic items. And if you remove that field I can kill you easily. Once its turned off all that is required is a single disjunction.


If the giant still has the dispelling Item, that tactic would be void. It even spare the change to make it a command word activated Item with repeated use. That would cut a lrage chunk out of your budget, but itīs feasible.
You can't dispel a Wall of Force. Or dispel me through a WoF. And you would never hit the CL check to do it as a fighter with an item anyway.

And that all requires custom magic items. Which aren't RAW legal ever. Or core rules. And if you want to allow them I'm fine with it but I will brake them worse than you.


Otherwise, a Ring of Sustenance prevents dying of Hunger and is dirt cheap.
Doesn't work under your permanent AMF, which you can't lower as it will be promptly disjoined.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-03-29, 03:57 PM
Scribe, we're working core-only here. The SRD is all 3.5 core stuff, I believe, so anything in there, if not excluded as per above guidelines, can be used; but nothing more. For this debate, I'd say that a fighter has got the best shot by getting in close, if at all possible. Force concentration checks and keep the opponent within threatened range. Much more than that I cannot contribute, as I generally like to kill wizards from behind with a flurry of blows and some rogue backup.

Also, Monsieur Tippy, you are indeed exuding quite a powerful superiority complex. Mellow down and let preconceptions lie. Let's pretend this is an arena match between the last true warrior in the free world and the abysmal tyrant that will destroy all should e come out victorious. What is the warrior's best shot at taking out this tyrant? That's how I look at it, anyway.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-29, 04:25 PM
Scribe, we're working core-only here.

I'm aware of that, but I wheel that character out as a nifty mage slayer every time :smallcool:. Also, if we can find some way of replicating those same abilities in as pure-core as is possible, then that's a way. Basically, the continuous item of AMF seems to be an option, although something about spell reflection keeps nagging at me.

Demented
2007-03-29, 05:50 PM
The above "rules" ruled out Disjunction and Artifacts. Which made me sad.
Reading the thread in the D20 forum about Disjunction made me think that a Fighter's best defense (or offense) against Disjunction would be to carry a bag of lesser artifacts with him. "Go ahead, Wizard, make my day."

1% chance of nuking the AMF.
0.05% chance per artifact of becoming a level 20 Commoner with Contingency: Dimension Door. (Assuming Will save of 25 or better.)

Wanna risk it?

Eldritch_Ent
2007-03-29, 08:02 PM
Feel free to ignore my "rules", they were just what I was assuming was the case anyway. :P


Wait a tic... a wall of force could, at best in a 100x100x100 room, create a wall, say, 100 feet wide and 2 feet tall, since you only get ten square feet per level. Or a 45 by 45 foot wall if you want to make it a square. (Yeah, I know that actually works out

Great, the Fighter has to go over a short wall, or around it. (A medium sized fighter can move 120 feet a round if he runs, more if Good thing fighters, Barbarians, and Monks have Jump as a Class skill. And fighters and Monks have higher base movement- though I suppose this is only about the actual "Fighter" class...), and the fighter can easily get around it simply by doing two standard non-hustle/charge/run move actions. (And since the wizard spent his standard action erecting the wall of force, he can only move 30 feet.)

So, assuming they were standing "centered" in the cube (walls 50 feet to their left and right, wall 25 feet behind eachother, 50 feet of space in between them), and assuming a move of 30 and him heading directly towards a corner, he actually couldn't make it into a corner close enough to seal it off, since assuming a height of six feet, He could only, say, get his feet inside the wall then- at best. (The resulting force-triangle would connect to the wall 21.5 feet from each corner along the edges.) It would take two rounds of motion, of which the Fighter can close rather simply by fully running (120 feet at 30 foot movement, if I remember) at the wiz.

Now if the Fighter centered his "Antimagic field" in the center of the triangle, would the wizard still be able to avoid it? (I'd think the Wizard would have to behunkered down rather close into the corner, although I'm not too sure on the math there. Can someone spot me on it?)

Also, The strategy of "Force Wall + Permanence + Temporal stasis" actually would be completely ineffective if you gave the Warrior a ring of sustenance and a magic item that shot so many disentegrate-rays per day... (Especially given Warriors have higher fort saves and more HP- the wizard would be hurting more after a day without water and three without food than the fighter, and wouldn't be able to stay awake as long.)- all he'd have to do is wait for the wizard to go under, drop the Antimagic Field, Zap the force wall, and coup de gras the wizard.

KoDT69
2007-03-29, 08:16 PM
OK I got a decent attempt at this... A Fog Giant (30' tall) with the Half-Dragon Template for wings. Barbarian 2 Forsaker 10 (Masters of the Wild) Fighter 8. Give him a greataxe and all of the charging feats, power attack, leap attack, shock trooper, weapon focus, greater focus, wep spec & greater, improved crit, improved init, steadfast determination, lightning reflexes, iron will, great fortitude, and improved sunder feats. HA! The forsaker kicks all kinds of butt for this application. :smallbiggrin: :smallcool: And use all the stat points possible for STR (to kick his arse) DEX (for initiative) and CON (Steadfast Determination = Will Save bonus!)!!!

ZeroNumerous
2007-03-29, 09:38 PM
It's supposed to be a pure fighter, KoDT.

lsfreak
2007-03-29, 10:12 PM
If I recall past threads similar to these, they ALL end the same way. The fighter essentially has no way of beating the wizard. The more sources you use, the more the wizard pummels the fighter from existence. It's just that here, the wizard has to try a little bit harder, because arbitrary and unrealistic rules have been set in place.

Kioran
2007-03-30, 02:26 AM
Unfortunately the giants have LA, and a Fog Giant would have a very high one.

Behold_the_Void
2007-03-30, 03:22 AM
I'd like to point out that by RAW, Wish can't do a lot of the things people are saying it can do. The most glaring one is "Wish them out of existence," which by RAW most certainly does NOT duplicate the effect of an 8th or lower level spell or fall under any of the other items that Wish can do.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-31, 01:13 PM
Maze is nice though, no save, no touch :/. Akin to "wishing out of existence" as the wizard then gets a surprise round and plenty of time to buff short spells.