Eldritch Knight: Combos?

[Xuldarinar]

Though i just started out charing out all the official classes one could use to get into eldritch knight, I am left with a question. What are some of the best combos? What synergies can you come up with?


Weapon Proficiency

Antipaladin
Barbarian
Bloodrager
Cavalier
Fighter
Gunslinger
Hunter
Magus
Monk (Sohei Archetype)
Paladin
Ranger
Samurai
Skald
Slayer
Swashbuckler
Warpriest
Warrior

Prestige Classes (Not an all inclusive list)

Arcane Archer
Duelist
Golden Legionnaire
Low Templar
Pit Fighter
Stalwart Defender


Spells

Arcanist [6th level]
Bard [7th level]
Bloodrager [10th level]
Magus [7th level]
Skald [7th level]
Sorcerer [6th level]
Summoner [7th level]
Witch [5th level]
Wizard [5th level]

[Kraken]

Hell knight signifier (or enforcer on the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer)) is pretty good. Medium BAB, full casting progression, decent class features.

[Erik Vale]

Full BAB, bonus combat feats, 9/10 casting...
Ok, same as 3.5, but with bonus combat feats...
I think base class features are almost always better, unless you're a fighter dipping in a caster class, in which case main class features aren't really that notable, and since casting a dip it would have been weak otherwise.

If I were to go Fighter/Caster/Eldritch Knight, I'd probably go Wizard for the best spells or Witch for the good spells + a Hex, with more avaliable through feat useage.
*Checks*
Evangelisist is only 3/4 BAB, so I'd probbly just go Fighter/[Witch/Wizard]/Eldritch Knight.
*Further Check*
Requires 3rd level spells, giving you a max BaB of 17, with spells up to level 7.
So... You wouldn't have access to the best fighter feats, and your magic won't synergise as well as a Magus, but your list is better and theoretically goes higher, except the magus gets higher level spells in lower slots. Hexes can be gained by a Magus class feature, so you're not getting anything better on that front, instead getting it worse as the Magus will get higher end Hexes and you won't, so a witch dip is probably strictly worse.

So, if I were forced to go into Eldritch Knight, I would be a fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight. In combat I'd be strictly worse [less able to use magic in combat] excluding in the +2 BAB I have over the Magus, where you'd shine however is buffing, downtime and out of combat casting.
To Maximise that, I'd play either a Universalist Crafter Wizard, A Conjuration Wizard of either the infernal bargainer [Take control of other's summons] or teleportation [swift action movement to aid in full attacking] subschools, A Transmutation Specialist of the Enhancement Subschool, or a Necromancer specialist wizard [for undead creation].
I'd grab the Fast Study discovery on my 5th wizard level, and normally go with most of my spell slots unprepared. Also, grab the Arcane Lineage [may be wrong name] to bump up your CL by two.

As for Fighter, Probably Lorewarden [Bonus Skill points, Less armor proficiency is of low impact, CMD bonus], Tactician [Bonus Skill Points, Teamwork feats would work well with summons, Less Armor proficiency is of low impact, bonus initiative] or Viking [Intimidate with move actions, Less armor proficiency is low impact, better boost from shields, Can Rage if you choose to forgo combat casting].



Another idea is to use it as a version of Arcane Archer for Wizards, by using a Conductive bow and your new found BAB in order to deliver your normally touch/ranged touch range spells from overlarge distances. However that will chew through your spell slots like no tomorrow, being that it costs 2 slots per effective casting.


Ok, that done, there's a quote [that I'm probably getting wrong] from Harry Potter and the Natural 20 I'd like to give you:
"No one takes Eldritch Knight. At least, no one who's telling... Excluding those that take one level and then die."
Having looked, I would consider making either a Universalist [Crafter] Wizard/[Lorewarden/Viking] Fighter/Eldritch Knight or a Conjuration [Teleportation] Wizard/[Viking/Tactician] Fighter/Eldritch Knight, the first using wizard to craft and do non-fighter stuff with it's downtime and use spells as required, the later as a very lightly armed fighter constantly pulling off full attacks by using the wizard bonus to get close or casting spells of use, while using Wizard to do non-fightery things in downtime.

However, the later I'd never willingly play, because Magus, Vital Strike, and Cleave all exist. The former... In a high level game, sure. In fact, I wish to try it out now just to tell you how it goes.

Edit: And as above said, there are better combat classes for casters than Eldritch Knight, were you to use it, in pathfinder.

[grarrrg]

Well, from the Synergies standpoint:
First off, EK doesn't really have much for "synergies" on it's own to exploit. The only "feature" it gets is the "cast spell on crit" at 10th level.
EK also has to fight the fact that Base Classes tend to have a lot of features that scale with level.
So we're going with a build that removes as many Scaling Base Class abilities as possible, so that we don't feel bad going EK.

Spellslinger Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spellslinger) 5/Siege Gunner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype) Gunslinger 1/EK 10

Spellslinger gives up...pretty much every Wizard feature that scales, so you don't lose much/anything by PrCing. It lets you shoot spells from your gun for bonuses.
Siege Gunner Gunslinger lets you use INT for Grit instead of WIS, and trades away practically nothing as a dip.

You'd still have 4 levels to work with, so either +Wizard for 9th level spells, or +4 Gunslinger for DEX to damage.

[Xuldarinar]

Hell knight signifier (or enforcer on the SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer)) is pretty good. Medium BAB, full casting progression, decent class features.

Yes it is good, and doesn't require martial weapon proficiency to enter. But, why bring it up?


-Snip-

A fair analysis of things and how you would approach it.




Personally, I see a handful of ways one can attempt to optimize things, or at least draw synergy.

Paladin (or antipaladin) 2 with any Cha based caster is a solid way to go.

(Gunslinger, Sohei or Warpriest)/Wildblooded Sorcerer (Empyreal Bloodline)

Gunslinger/Spellslinger

Barbarian/Scarred Witch Doctor

edit:


Well, from the Synergies standpoint:
First off, EK doesn't really have much for "synergies" on it's own to exploit. The only "feature" it gets is the "cast spell on crit" at 10th level.
EK also has to fight the fact that Base Classes tend to have a lot of features that scale with level.
So we're going with a build that removes as many Scaling Base Class abilities as possible, so that we don't feel bad going EK.

Spellslinger Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spellslinger) 5/Siege Gunner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype) Gunslinger 1/EK 10

Spellslinger gives up...pretty much every Wizard feature that scales, so you don't lose much/anything by PrCing. It lets you shoot spells from your gun for bonuses.
Siege Gunner Gunslinger lets you use INT for Grit instead of WIS, and trades away practically nothing as a dip.

You'd still have 4 levels to work with, so either +Wizard for 9th level spells, or +4 Gunslinger for DEX to damage.



This, I like this. Though, why not Siege Mage/Siege Gunner/Eldritch Knight?

[Urpriest]

Well, from the Synergies standpoint:
First off, EK doesn't really have much for "synergies" on it's own to exploit. The only "feature" it gets is the "cast spell on crit" at 10th level.
EK also has to fight the fact that Base Classes tend to have a lot of features that scale with level.
So we're going with a build that removes as many Scaling Base Class abilities as possible, so that we don't feel bad going EK.

Spellslinger Wizard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/spellslinger) 5/Siege Gunner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype) Gunslinger 1/EK 10

Spellslinger gives up...pretty much every Wizard feature that scales, so you don't lose much/anything by PrCing. It lets you shoot spells from your gun for bonuses.
Siege Gunner Gunslinger lets you use INT for Grit instead of WIS, and trades away practically nothing as a dip.

You'd still have 4 levels to work with, so either +Wizard for 9th level spells, or +4 Gunslinger for DEX to damage.

...or 4 Hellknight Signifier so you end up with BAB +16 and 9ths, and the other gishes don't laugh at you.

[Xuldarinar]

...or 4 Hellknight Signifier so you end up with BAB +16 and 9ths, and the other gishes don't laugh at you.

But the Hellknight Signifier isn't the Eldritch Knight. Thats the premise of the thread. The Eldritch Knight. Not other prestige classes that can accomplish the same thing, whether they are better or not. What if the character is Chaotic? What do they do then?

[Urpriest]

But the Hellknight Signifier isn't the Eldritch Knight. Thats the premise of the thread. The Eldritch Knight. Not other prestige classes that can accomplish the same thing, whether they are better or not. What if the character is Chaotic? What do they do then?

The character isn't Chaotic, because they're an Eldritch Knight and thus would rather end up with +16 BAB. Unless there are other 3/4 BAB PrCs in PF that can fill that role. One of the main synergies to look for in classes like Eldritch Knight are PrCs to fill out the final levels, after all.

[grarrrg]

But the Hellknight Signifier isn't the Eldritch Knight. Thats the premise of the thread. The Eldritch Knight. Not other prestige classes that can accomplish the same thing, whether they are better or not. What if the character is Chaotic? What do they do then?

I think he was referring to the end of my build.
Instead of Spellslinger 9/Siege Gunner 1/EK 10 or Spellslinger 5/Siege Gunner 5/EK 10
He was suggesting Spellslinger 5/Siege Gunner 1/EK 10/Hellknight 4


Yes it is good, and doesn't require martial weapon proficiency to enter. But, why bring it up?
Because it is a perfectly valid alternative to EK. Yeah, it doesn't get you Full Bab, but 3/4 isn't bad, and you don't lose as much casting.
That and it actually has class features that do something.

EK isn't a -bad- PrC, it just isn't as good or as synergistic as it could be.
The 3.5 designers literally smooshed Fighter and Wizard together. And the PF team didn't do all that much to 'update it' either.

EK is still a perfectly serviceable gish, but Magus does Fighter-gish better, and Hellknight Signifier does Caster-gish better.


This, I like this. Though, why not Siege Mage/Siege Gunner/Eldritch Knight?

Because the only part of Siege Gunner we care about is INT-to-Grit, I'd pick a different archetype if I could, but Siege Gunner is the _ONLY_ archetype with INT-to-Grit. The focus on Siege weapons is incidental, and Spellslinger has LOADS more synergy/usefulness.

[Xuldarinar]

The character isn't Chaotic, because they're an Eldritch Knight and thus would rather end up with +16 BAB. Unless there are other 3/4 BAB PrCs in PF that can fill that role. One of the main synergies to look for in classes like Eldritch Knight are PrCs to fill out the final levels, after all.


I misread, thinking you meant it in lieu of eldritch knight. Thats not a bad suggestion at all to cap it off.



-snip-

Because the only part of Siege Gunner we care about is INT-to-Grit, I'd pick a different archetype if I could, but Siege Gunner is the _ONLY_ archetype with INT-to-Grit. The focus on Siege weapons is incidental, and Spellslinger has LOADS more synergy/usefulness.

Fair enough.

[Kraken]

I misread, thinking you meant it in lieu of eldritch knight. Thats not a bad suggestion at all to cap it off.


Yes, I meant for hell knight to fill out the rest of the build. If you wanted to exploit PF's PRC qualification rules, you could enter EK at level 3, and do something like fighter1/wizard1/EK10/hell knight8. Or any martial and arcane class before EK, really, as there are multiple race choices that get you the third level SLA to qualify for EK, notably aasimar.

[Xuldarinar]

Yes, I meant for hell knight to fill out the rest of the build. If you wanted to exploit PF's PRC qualification rules, you could enter EK at level 3, and do something like fighter1/wizard1/EK10/hell knight8. Or any martial and arcane class before EK, really, as there are multiple race choices that get you the third level SLA to qualify for EK, notably aasimar.

-looks up aasimar's SLA-

If it counted as an arcane spell, you'd be correct for that one. Ones that don't discern which type of spell however, such as hellknight enforcer, we can argue such a thing would work for early entry. I like that. I like that a lot. Thank you for pointing that little detail out.

[grarrrg]

If it counted as an arcane spell, you'd be correct for that one. Ones that don't discern which type of spell however, such as hellknight enforcer, we can argue such a thing would work for early entry. I like that. I like that a lot. Thank you for pointing that little detail out.

Aasimar's ability counts as arcane.
Here, have a FAQ or two (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow)
The first says SLA's can count towards Prerequisites for stuff.

The second shows how to tell if an SLA is Arcane or Divine.
The first spell list it falls on determines if it is arcane/divine: wizard > cleric > druid > bard > paladin > ranger

[Kraken]

Not necessarily relevant here, but just to expand upon grarrrg's post for your general knowledge with regard to SLA's, here's another example of using SLAs to qualify for prestige classes: Tiefling's darkness SLA counts as a level 2 spell for the purposes of casting because it's level 2 and on the sor/wiz list. The copycat ability of a cleric's trickery domain is treated as level 2 divine spellcasting, because mirror image is a level 2 spell, and a divine spellcasting class is the source of the SLA, so it doesn't matter what other class lists mirror image appears on. Therefore, at level 1 a tiefling cleric with the trickery domain meets the level 2 arcane and divine spellcasting requirements for mystic theurge, and needs only spend the next couple levels picking up the necessary skill ranks to enter mystic theurge. Preferably having one of those levels being an arcane class for theurge to advance. :smallbiggrin: This example is even legal in PFS organized play, as would fighter1/wizard1/EK10.

[weckar]

Anything wrong with using a straight caster and the Militia feat? Add any early-entry tricks on that spell level here.... (Hint: it can be done at 2nd level)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, the Militia feat doesn't exist in PF (points to thread's title/tag), however as Kraken said, it is possible to enter PF Eldritch Knight at level 3 as an Aasimar Fighter 1/Wizard 1, due the FAQ ruling that allows SLA to count for pre-requisites; in fact it used to be possible to enter at level 2 (wizars 1/EK1) before, but Paizo ruled that you only get proficiencies from type if you actually have RHD, which was a blow for Aasimar and Tieflings.

[weckar]

My apologies. Topic tags do not display properly in my browser.

[Xuldarinar]

This realization that SLAs can count towards casting prerequisites actually changes things quite a bit.

The following races I have found can qualify for EK early.

Aasimar (Daylight is a 3rd level spell. With the Immortal Spark alternate racial trait, they can instead have lesser age resistance, a 4th level spell)
Drow Noble (Suggestion is a 3rd level spell.)
Elf (Via Dreamspeaker alternate racial trait. Dream is a 5th level spell)
Tiefling (One possible variant tiefling ability is the ability to cast animate dead, a 4th level spell for wizards, in a limited form 1/day. One of the few times you want to roll a 1 on anything if you are rolling on that table.)

[avr]

Dreamspeaker doesn't actually work, nor does a tiefling with a 4th level SLA. EK specifies 3rd level spells, not 3rd or greater ... don't blame me for the silliness, I didn't write the FAQ!

On the other hand, there's a wizard subschool (the Scryer) which gets a clairvoyance-like SLA which meets the spellcasting qualification, without needing to be of any race in particular.

[Psyren]

I typically use it with Arcane Archer myself. Fighter (or Ranger)/Wizard/EK/AA/EK+.

[grarrrg]

This realization that SLAs can count towards casting prerequisites actually changes things quite a bit.

The following races I have found can qualify for EK early....

Here have a guide/list/thingy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZFnvgbhjMibHJRft0dl_4gbcMw0-dAMUFYFlsyS7d60/edit?pli=1)

[Xuldarinar]

Dreamspeaker doesn't actually work, nor does a tiefling with a 4th level SLA. EK specifies 3rd level spells, not 3rd or greater ... don't blame me for the silliness, I didn't write the FAQ!

On the other hand, there's a wizard subschool (the Scryer) which gets a clairvoyance-like SLA which meets the spellcasting qualification, without needing to be of any race in particular.

I just checked and, you are right. Well, that is frustrating.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So the only options for the early EK entry are Aasimar, Svirfneblin and diviner, race-wise it sucks (Aasimar is OK for cha based casters I guess) but at least Diviners work with every race.

[grarrrg]

So the only options for the early EK entry are Aasimar, Svirfneblin and diviner, race-wise it sucks (Aasimar is OK for cha based casters I guess) but at least Diviners work with every race.

With the alternate Heritages you can get +whatever on an Aasimar, it just usually comes paired with +CHA (or +DEX/WIS or +CON/WIS).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Don't you need to take the Alternative SLA if you take a different heritage?

[grarrrg]

Don't you need to take the Alternative SLA if you take a different heritage?

Objection withdrawn.
While there are some 2nd level SLA's in the heritages, none of them really sync up all that well.
The only one worth noting is Peri Blooded, INT/CHA with a 2nd level Arcane SLA.

[Larkas]

Fighter or Ranger 1/ Wizard 5/ Eldritch Knight 3/ Arcane Archer 4/ Eldritch Knight +7 works pretty well.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah I ran into that exact problem with Peri-blooded aasimar when I was helping a friend with a character. Wish I knew about Diviner wizard before though, woukd have made things a lot smoother.

Incidentally, is there any +str/+int race in PF at all? A quick search tells me Paizo "hates" the idea of Genius bruisers, as far as I can tell int bonus are only paired with Dex, which is fine, but I'd like to build a gish that speaks sodtly and carries a big stick.

[Psyren]

Incidentally, is there any +str/+int race in PF at all? A quick search tells me Paizo "hates" the idea of Genius bruisers, as far as I can tell int bonus are only paired with Dex, which is fine, but I'd like to build a gish that speaks sodtly and carries a big stick.

There's a variant of that shifter-esque race they introduced in Blood of the Moon - the Skinwalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp), specifically the Scaleheart (werecrocodile-kin variant) gets +2 Int -2 Wis, and when they shift into hybrid/bestial form gain an additional +2 Str for a final mod of +2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Wis. You can stay in bestial form as long as you want, though you may freak out the townsfolk.

[Grim Reader]

Depending on how totally Pathfinder you are: If you can get some 3.5 spells, Sorcerer is a good base. At low levels, Wings of Cover is good for anyone who wants to mix it up in close combat. At higher levels Arcane Spellsurge to make all those standard action spells swift actions.

If you can get 3.5 PrCs, Sublime Chord for 9th level spells. Wyrm Wizard for Harm, generally with a base that lets you weaponize it.

[grarrrg]

Incidentally, is there any +str/+int race in PF at all? A quick search tells me Paizo "hates" the idea of Genius bruisers

Paizo also hates -DEX
Not. one. single. race.

[avr]

There's an odd additional race named the lashunta (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/lashunta-11-rp). Male lashunta have +2 STR & INT, -2 WIS.

Never seen a -DEX race in PF though.

[Kraken]

Scaleheart skinwalkers, while transformed, are +2 str, +2 int, and -2 wis. For -2 dex, there's the Syrinx apparently, though I'm unclear as to its legality, I just found it by scanning PFSRD.

[Psyren]

There's an odd additional race named the lashunta (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/lashunta-11-rp). Male lashunta have +2 STR & INT, -2 WIS.

Never seen a -DEX race in PF though.


Scaleheart skinwalkers, while transformed, are +2 str, +2 int, and -2 wis. For -2 dex, there's the Syrinx apparently, though I'm unclear as to its legality, I just found it by scanning PFSRD.

Syrinx are cool owl-dudes.

All three are first-party Paizo material. Skinwalkers are in Blood of the Moon while Lashunta and Syrinx are in ISB. So there is indeed something for everyone, just about.

(Incidentally, female Lashunta are a +Int/+Cha race someone was asking about earlier as well.)