Rogue Paragon path

[Calen]

Hello, I am playing a level 10 rogue almost at paragon. I realized that the paragon path I was looking at had a glaring weakness so I decided to ask all the smart people here what their recommendations were.

Details
Half-Elf Rogue
Multiclass Monk
Diletantte - Monk 5 Storms (Willing to change)

Weapon Preferences - Dagger and Pistol (Homebrew weapon treated as a hand crossbow) I have found that keeping 2 weapons up to date while still getting armor etc. is hard so I might drop one of these in favor of focusing on one weapon.

I am playing with a melee HEAVY party. I am thinking that I would pick up Vexing Flanker and work so that the party wants me to flank whenever possible. To that end a PP with mobility, flanking or other aids to that plan would be great. But if there is something else that would be good I'll listen.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Kurald Galain]

Daggermaster is a strong paragon path. Then pick up feats or items that do something on a crit (e.g. prone your victim), because you'll be critting a lot.

[Burley]

Look into Swift Footwork from Martial Power 2. A lot of your powers will grant free shifting, and this will let you shift 2 extra.

Or, if you wanted to, you could look into Defensive Mobility (PHB1) and Opportunity Knocks (MP2). Your AC should be nigh untouchable, so, you could provoke OAs to get some easy combat advantage, even from range, if you decide to leave an enemy's area.

Just some thoughts on mobile rogues, depending on what you're looking for. I'll look around some more.


Oh, Also! I've played with a Daggermaster in the party. That crit range is insane and comes into play a lot. It's the only time I'd ever suggest building a character around crits.

[Yakk]

A very strong build for a rogue is:
Daggermaster
Multiclass Avenger (for 2 rounds of double-rolls, more if you kill the target as the power refreshes if you drop it!)
Two weapon fighting
The two weapon feat that gives you an off-hand attack when you crit
Rogue Dagger Mastery (whatever it is called -- daggers are now high crit)
Light Blade Expertise (naturally, +1 to hit/damage per tier)
Nimble blade (+1 to hit with CA)
Vicious Dagger weapons (d12 crit dice are tasty!)
20 starting dex.
Backstabber (d8 backstab dice)
Melee training

As many non-standard action attacks as you can get (prefer immediate, then minor, then conditional minor, then multi-attack standards)

You oath an adjacent target, then attack with 2d20. ~30% of the time you crit, and get a bonus attack. If you fail to crit and only hit, just hit normally, don't bother backstabbing. Burn a minor action to attack again.

At level 11 you have +6(dex) +2(weapon) +3(prof) +1(talent) +2(expertise) +2(CA) +1(nimble) +5(half level) = +22 to hit, which hits a same-level non-soldier's AC on a 3. With two rolls, your miss chance is 1%, your crit chance is 28%.

With a minor action attack option and oath active:
28% crit backstab
20% crit backstab+hit
51% hit+hit+backstab
0.6% hit no backstab
0.01% no hit
and the crit means a bonus offhand attack, with another chance to crit on it (.01 hit, .28 crit, .71 hit)

If you have 2 minor action melee attacks we get over 2 rounds
1.23 crits (38 damage)
.96 crit backstabs (24 damage)
1.02 backstabs (13.5 damage)
2.11 hits (13.5 damage)
= 112 average damage
which is solid damage territory.

[masteraleph]

To add on to Yakk's idea- at some point, it would make sense to use a Graceful Weapon in the main hand (Crit line is Dex mod per plus, so by upper paragon you're beating a Vicious Weapon's average, and continue to improve). Also, Shadow Steel Roll is worth looking at too- it's a Standard, but comes with the movement baked in. Thoroughly replaced at 17 by Tumbling Strike, of course, but until then it's the Rogue's best approach power.

[Yakk]

So, for a completely different approach, exploit your half-elf ness.

Keep your Dex and Str equally high. Be a brutal scoundrel. Pick twin strike as your at-will half-elf power, and make it really at-will at paragon.

Power swap non-offturn encounter powers for ranger off-turn encounter powers, like disruptive strike. This gives you an extra instance of backstab.

Dual wield frost short swords, and grab wintertouched/lasting frost for an extra 5 damage per tap and easy combat advantage, plus iron armbands of power and dragonshards.

But part of the problem is that we do need to know how optimized the rest of your group is. An under optimal character is just as bad as an over optimized character for the group dynamic.

[Calen]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have selected Daggermaster and will be implementing some of the other ideas. The rest of the party is not high optimized so I won't be either. I am still looking for a solid dilettante skill. I am an artful-dodger rogue so Twin-Strike is not as useful. I've considered keeping the 5-storms just for the shift 2 as a move action but I am sure that there are nicer options out there. Possibly Inescapable blade or Fading Strike. Any other suggestions?

[Konun]

Twinstrike is really good and if you got the strength for it id look at fighter atwills like tide of iron or similar powers so you can get enemy's where you want them

[masteraleph]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have selected Daggermaster and will be implementing some of the other ideas. The rest of the party is not high optimized so I won't be either. I am still looking for a solid dilettante skill. I am an artful-dodger rogue so Twin-Strike is not as useful. I've considered keeping the 5-storms just for the shift 2 as a move action but I am sure that there are nicer options out there. Possibly Inescapable blade or Fading Strike. Any other suggestions?

How even are your DEX and CHA stats? Eldritch Strike is a rather amazing MBA (slides, and Arcane so you can play some tricks with that), and can use CHA as the basis, rather than STR (and you'll need a solid MBA if you go Two Weapon Fighting/Two Weapon Opening). It's an MBA, so if you really feel the need, you could go Deft Blade to target Reflex instead. And because it's CHA primary, you can still use your MC on something other than Warlock.

[Sol]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have selected Daggermaster and will be implementing some of the other ideas. The rest of the party is not high optimized so I won't be either. I am still looking for a solid dilettante skill. I am an artful-dodger rogue so Twin-Strike is not as useful. I've considered keeping the 5-storms just for the shift 2 as a move action but I am sure that there are nicer options out there. Possibly Inescapable blade or Fading Strike. Any other suggestions?

The daggermaster F11, which is to a large degree what makes daggermaster amazing, makes dilettante actually pretty bad for you. If it were usable with twin strike, that would be great (at range, if you don't have the STR for melee twin strike), but it isn't, so it's not great.

If you have dual-primary CHA, eldritch strike isn't terrible, but you still run into issues with the daggermaster F11 encouraging you to not charge, which pushes its relevance to OAs and granted attacks.

I'd honestly consider either switching races or taking Knack for Success instead of Dilettante. Both Dilettante and Daggermaster are amazing, but Daggermaster's strict requirement that you use rogue powers means that the two do not play nicely together at all.

[Calen]

The daggermaster F11, which is to a large degree what makes daggermaster amazing, makes dilettante actually pretty bad for you. If it were usable with twin strike, that would be great (at range, if you don't have the STR for melee twin strike), but it isn't, so it's not great.

If you have dual-primary CHA, eldritch strike isn't terrible, but you still run into issues with the daggermaster F11 encouraging you to not charge, which pushes its relevance to OAs and granted attacks.

I'd honestly consider either switching races or taking Knack for Success instead of Dilettante. Both Dilettante and Daggermaster are amazing, but Daggermaster's strict requirement that you use rogue powers means that the two do not play nicely together at all.

I had been reading from the handbook and had not seen that errata, thanks for ruining my day :smalltongue: for the notice. I have been playing this rogue for a while already. So no switching race or race feature.

[Sol]

I had been reading from the handbook and had not seen that errata, thanks for ruining my day :smalltongue: for the notice. I have been playing this rogue for a while already. So no switching race or race feature.

It's absolutely worth asking your DM to allow exceptions to the errata. The spirit of the errata was to prevent avengers from taking twin strike and daggermaster to end up with a 70% crit rate. The actuality was a bit harsh. In my opinion, a single-class rogue should be able to apply the daggermaster feature to any ability.

[Dimers]

A very strong build for a rogue is:
Daggermaster
Multiclass Avenger (for 2 rounds of double-rolls, more if you kill the target as the power refreshes if you drop it!) ...

Check with the DM before assuming this. The multiclass feat says "once per encounter", and that may be considered to override the power's normal function of eventually recharging itself. It is just a multiclass, after all, and even without recharge it's a stronger benefit than most MC feats grant.

[Kurald Galain]

It's absolutely worth asking your DM to allow exceptions to the errata. The spirit of the errata was to prevent avengers from taking twin strike and daggermaster to end up with a 70% crit rate.

Not exactly. The errata was made because without this errata, Daggermaster is mechanically the best paragon path for pretty much every single striker, including sorcerers, rangers, and warlocks. Note that they made similar errata to a number of other paragon paths that were causing excessive multiclassing.

Daggermaster remains great after the errata, it doesn't need any particular changes or reversions.

[Sol]

Not exactly. The errata was made because without this errata, Daggermaster is mechanically the best paragon path for pretty much every single striker, including sorcerers, rangers, and warlocks. Note that they made similar errata to a number of other paragon paths that were causing excessive multiclassing. This is precisely what i meant, I was just illustrating it with the worst offender of the bunch, which was the twin-striking avenger. Student of Caiphon was also changed more-or-less to deal with that same combination.


Daggermaster remains great after the errata, it doesn't need any particular changes or reversions. Doesn't need, no, but I do wish that it allowed for basic attacks as well. Inability to use the cornerstone feature of the build on ostensibly the easiest attacks to make is kind of silly, and makes daggermasters less great (still pretty great 1/turn) at OAs or for leaders to enable.

[Yakk]

Check with the DM before assuming this. The multiclass feat says "once per encounter", and that may be considered to override the power's normal function of eventually recharging itself.
That would be a ruling sure. But in general in 4e, you don't get to change how something works without being specific about it. And redundant sentences don't imply extra restriction (gaining the use of a per-encounter power once per encounter is redundant, yes, but it doesn't mean that it is extra-super-restricted per-encounter we-really-mean-it.)

You the power. You cannot use it again. Then a condition occurs that states "you regain the use of the power". Nothing specifically overrides that clause, so you let it stand.

I agree it is quite powerful, and nerfing it would be appropriate. I would disagree with doing it "under color of RAW": nerf it because it is too strong, not because of the wording.

On the other hand, it makes for a fun game whereby you have to make sure your target dies before the end of your next turn if you want to play again.

[Sol]

That would be a ruling sure. But in general in 4e, you don't get to change how something works without being specific about it. And redundant sentences don't imply extra restriction (gaining the use of a per-encounter power once per encounter is redundant, yes, but it doesn't mean that it is extra-super-restricted per-encounter we-really-mean-it.)

You the power. You cannot use it again. Then a condition occurs that states "you regain the use of the power". Nothing specifically overrides that clause, so you let it stand.

I agree it is quite powerful, and nerfing it would be appropriate. I would disagree with doing it "under color of RAW": nerf it because it is too strong, not because of the wording.

On the other hand, it makes for a fun game whereby you have to make sure your target dies before the end of your next turn if you want to play again.

This gets into a debate over which sentence is the general rule and which sentence is the specific rule, though. And the rules have no meta-rules for adjudicating which rules are more specific than others. Making a case in either direction here requires some level of rules lawyering. As-written, these two rule sets are too vague to make a clear call whether the power continues to refresh or not - it swings on which sentence the "you can use this power once per encounter" was meant to replace.

I'm very open to your interpretation and think it makes for compelling gameplay, but it's not the one correct reading. And if it's any indication, I have never seen it played that way.

[Yakk]

I hold that neither are more specific. Basically "overriding of a specific rule somewhere else should not happen by accident".

There are general rules, like an OA that is triggered by leaving or entering a square. There are specific rules, such as "shifts and teleports never trigger opportunity actions". Barring the power saying "triggered when someone shifts into a square adjacent to you", that specific clause is not overridden by a power saying "triggered when someone enters a square adjacent to you". They have to specifically mention "shifts" for it to override the general rule about shifts, they cannot simply mention "movement" or "entering squares" in general.

This leads to a pretty sane reading of D&D 4e rules.

If it stated "you cannot recharge it", that would specifically change the recharge rules on the power. "You can use it once per encounter" would specifically change text that stated "special: you can use this twice per encounter" (say, on healing word).

Or to back up a second, the wording on "healing word" doesn't mean you cannot recharge healing word.