Elves and rest

[Draak_Grafula]

When I look up the Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves) in the SRD I can't find the bit where it says elves only need 4 hours of trance instead of 8 hours of sleep. I don't have the PHB 3.5 at the moment (my bro's got it.) Can anyone check if it's in there or if it was only so in 3.0? If it's in the PHB 3.5 (maybe in the descriptive part) has it been errata-ed out? I'm asking becouse me and some friends were wondering what effect it would have on the 8 hours of sleep rule for spellcasters.

[Maxymiuk]

Yes, elves don't sleep. They meditate for 4 hours and that counts as 8 hours of sleep for every other race.

However, they still need to take the customary 8 hours of rest to memorize/restore their spells.

[Jack Mann]

It hasn't been errata'd out, but the meditation was in the flavor text, and it didn't make it into the SRD.

[Draak_Grafula]

So what would the other 4 hours of rest be? Chillin', Hangin on the sofa waching the telly, reading easy literature or just lying on your back staring at the ceiling? :)

EDIT: spelling of "ceiling". "sealing" just din't look right :)

[Saph]

Chillin. :)

Looking at the sky, the trees, or a piece of artwork probably. Elves are aesthetic types.

- Saph

[Draak_Grafula]

A mate of mine just found this quote in the flavour text.


An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit a human does from 8 hours of sleep.

[Fireball.Man.Guy.]

Physical rest yeah, NOT mental rest. This argument is a serious dead horse, and we're all quoting RAW. An elf still needs 8 hours of sleep to restore spells.

[Kender]

I've also always enforced that it is meditation time - they can't be on watch, but just sitting still/leaning against a tree or what have you.

It's more like a trance-state, IMHO.

[The Prince of Cats]

I still go with 2e's thoughts (which are not OGL, so cannot quoted, only paraphrased) - an elf needs four hours of reverie or 'trance' and four hours of meditation.

In reverie, the elf is oblivious to the real world because they are reliving their past in a similar manner to a human dreaming, but unlike anything a human can imagine. When they 'wake', they are just as groggy as a human would be.

When meditating, the elf has to block out the real world and focus inward. They 'wake' from this much as they do from reverie, needing a few seconds to take stock of their surroundings.


The difference between these is that reverie is passive, the memories come to the elf and must be processed by the subconscious, while the meditation is more active, the subconscious provides memories to the conscious mind to be dealt with.

Or, at least, that was may take on it...

edit:
Also, like Gandalf, elves seem to 'sleep' with their eyes open.

[anphorus]

Physical rest yeah, NOT mental rest. This argument is a serious dead horse, and we're all quoting RAW. An elf still needs 8 hours of sleep to restore spells.

Elves are physically incapable of sleep though, hence their immunity to sleep spells.

[Maxymiuk]

*big sigh*


To prepare her daily spells, a wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard) must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Emphasis mine. Everyone together now...

Elven wizards need 8 hours of rest to prepare their spells just like everybody else.

[hewhosaysfish]

*big sigh*

Everyone together now...

Elven wizards need 8 hours of rest to prepare their spells just like everybody else.


Rest*, but not sleep. Because they can't sleep.



*Restful calm, whatever.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah. Elves get to meditate for 4 hours. Then elven wizards sit around twiddling their thumbs for another 4 hours. Per RAW they can't even read a book.

I know of many DM's who houserule that they only need the 4 hours to prepare spells or that the other 4 hours can be used doing simple things (reading, cleaning dishes, etc.)

[Ranis]

I think the term for the meditating is "Reverie."

[Desaril]

There appear to be two issues:

1) What are the rules for elves and rest
2) What are the rules for elves and regaining spells

The answers are largely pretty clear
1) Elves do not sleep, they meditate. Meditation (whatever that means) is twice as efficient (in reference to time) as normal sleep.
2) Elves follow the same rules as other characters.

There are a whole slew of sub-questions:
1) What is meditation (or trance or reverie)? How does it differ from sleep?
2) Are elves incapable of sleep? Can they sleep if they choose to?
3) What happens if a elf rests, but doesn't meditate? Can an elf stay awake indefinitely? Is there a rule for pushing your character past exhausted?

I think elves are capable of sleep if they choose. They are not immune to all sleep effects (such as a sleep poison), just sleep magic (which is typically a compulsion). However, they can get by by meditating instead.

Meditation is supposed to be different from sleep (if not, why even mention it?). Therefore, a meditating elf is conscious and aware of his environment, i.e. can make Spot/listen checks. Meditation does require some time to prepare and requires the elf to have some peace and quiet (or make a Concentration check). He can't do anything else, but meditate/think/pray/do ritual katas/play an instrument/sing/etc that focuses the attention inward and beyond.

I thnk elves eventually need sleep. In most situations where it matters, i.e. while adventuring, meditation is preferable and sufficient. If I were testing the theoretical limits of elven endurance, I would allow elves to go without sleep 1 month/CON point or something like that. That solution (completely home-brewed after a similar discussion on this board) adds some versimilitude that elves are not constructs and like all living things eventually need rest and the concept that elves don't sleep. They do need it, just not often enough for anyone to notice.

[Jannex]

I think elves are capable of sleep if they choose. They are not immune to all sleep effects (such as a sleep poison), just sleep magic (which is typically a compulsion). However, they can get by by meditating instead.

"Sleep poison," as I understand it, does not actually induce sleep, but rather unconsciousness, which, as far as your brain is concerned, are two different states of being. (I have a friend who used to have problems with low blood-pressure, and would actually pass out during sleep.) Elves are capable of unconsciousness (due to poison, subdual damage, HP below 0, etc.) but not genuine sleep as humans experience it. That's how I interpret D&D canon, at any rate.


Meditation is supposed to be different from sleep (if not, why even mention it?). Therefore, a meditating elf is conscious and aware of his environment, i.e. can make Spot/listen checks. Meditation does require some time to prepare and requires the elf to have some peace and quiet (or make a Concentration check). He can't do anything else, but meditate/think/pray/do ritual katas/play an instrument/sing/etc that focuses the attention inward and beyond.

Meditation is different from sleep, but it's also different from awareness. They mention it, I think, in part because it shows how elves are fundamentally different from humans and other species--they're a little bit alien in that regard. This is also why they only need half as much time to meditate as humans do to sleep. I understand elven meditation almost as a kind of self-hypnosis; there's a reason they call it "trance." The elf is fully absorbed in his own inner being, and unaware of what is going on outside of his body, even though he isn't "asleep" as humans and dwarves understand the concept. He would have to be jarred into awareness, just as a human would need to be woken up out of sleep, or else he'll just continue his reverie until the four hours are completed.


I thnk elves eventually need sleep. In most situations where it matters, i.e. while adventuring, meditation is preferable and sufficient. If I were testing the theoretical limits of elven endurance, I would allow elves to go without sleep 1 month/CON point or something like that. That solution (completely home-brewed after a similar discussion on this board) adds some versimilitude that elves are not constructs and like all living things eventually need rest and the concept that elves don't sleep. They do need it, just not often enough for anyone to notice.

You're welcome to house-rule it as you like in your games, but based on canon text, I would disagree with your interpretation. As I read it, elves are physiologically different from other species to the extent that they are, in fact, incapable of "sleep." That's why Sleep spells don't affect them. They do still need rest, but their rest is a physiologically different process than that which humans employ. Trance/reverie/meditation fulfills the same biological functions for elves that sleep fulfills for humans. They're different species; their bodies and brains work differently.

[The Prince of Cats]

Rest*, but not sleep. Because they can't sleep.
The only definitive answer I ever saw was along the lines of 'elves can sleep, they just choose not to' in the Complete Book of Elves. Of course, sleep leads to dreams and elven dreams tend to be prophetic and scary...

[Desaril]

@ jannex- I'm no doctor or physiologist, but I believe that sleep and unconscsiousness are not diffrerent states, but different points along a spectrum of consciousness. You can be awake, nodding, asleep, unconscious, comatose, or dead (for example). I'd really like to see the difference except your sensitivity to exteranl stimuli. Unconsciousness is merely very deep sleep.

Also, the magical immunity to sleep does not support a physical immunity to sleep. Sleep is a compulsion/mind-altering spell. Note that outsiders are not immune to sleep although they do not need to sleep (and can sleep if they choose).

I disagree that meditation is like hypnosis simply because they call it trance. You can draw that conclusion, but I think its a stretch. We know that elves in the the fantasy genre D20 is trying to simulate are never "caught napping". If meditation was virtually identical to sleep, why bother with the distinction. Your elf isn't technically asleep, he's just in a state of restricted awareness decreased consciousness about the outside world. It works out virutally the same, but he's not sleep!

I think we use the terms RAW (or canon) in contrast to the usually pejorative home-rule (or homebrew); as in "That's not RAW it's JUST a home-rule". However, some GM rulings are not home-rules, they are rules interpretation. A home rule is "In my game, Elves don't have to sleep or meditate" an interpretation is "An elf will fall unconscious if he fails to meditate (or sleep)" The latter is not written in the rules but is implied.

In fact according to the rules, there is no worse penalty than exhausted, so there is no rule about when a character must sleep. You simply go from fatigued to exhausted to perpetual wakefulness. It's not a home-rule to say that after X days your character passes out from exhaustion. It's interpreting the rules.

Likewise, in adjudicating the elves need for sleep, the PHB says elves do not sleep as other common races do. It does not say they do not need sleep or they cannot sleep.

[Jannex]

@ jannex- I'm no doctor or physiologist, but I believe that sleep and unconscsiousness are not diffrerent states, but different points along a spectrum of consciousness. You can be awake, nodding, asleep, unconscious, comatose, or dead (for example). I'd really like to see the difference except your sensitivity to exteranl stimuli. Unconsciousness is merely very deep sleep.

This strikes me as not being the case. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconsciousness)tells us this:

Unconsciousness, more appropriately referred to as loss of consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness) or lack of consciousness, is a dramatic alteration of mental state that involves complete or near-complete lack of responsiveness to people and other environmental stimuli. Being in a comatose state or coma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma) is an illustration of unconsciousness. Fainting due to a drop in blood pressure and a decrease of the oxygen supply to the brain is an illustration of a temporary loss of consciousness. Loss of consciousness must not be confused with altered states of consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_states_of_consciousness), such as delirium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium) (when the person is confused and only partially responsive to the environment), normal sleep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep)*, hypnosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis), and other altered states in which the person responds to stimuli.

(*emphasis added)

Your brain does very specific things when you sleep, which can be detected by EEG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography). (Are catgirls also allergic to biology? :smallredface:)


Also, the magical immunity to sleep does not support a physical immunity to sleep. Sleep is a compulsion/mind-altering spell. Note that outsiders are not immune to sleep although they do not need to sleep (and can sleep if they choose).

If, as you say, outsiders are capable of choosing to sleep, then it would follow that they are physically capable of sleep, and as such are not immune to the Sleep spell. Whereas elves, if in fact they are physically incapable of sleep as humans experience it, would logically be incapable of being forced to sleep by a spell.


I disagree that meditation is like hypnosis simply because they call it trance. You can draw that conclusion, but I think its a stretch. We know that elves in the the fantasy genre D20 is trying to simulate are never "caught napping". If meditation was virtually identical to sleep, why bother with the distinction. Your elf isn't technically asleep, he's just in a state of restricted awareness decreased consciousness about the outside world. It works out virutally the same, but he's not sleep!

You can't have a recuperative state with similar limitations to sleep, if that state is not identical to sleep in every way? It seems to me that the game designers kept the same restrictions on elven trance for game-balance and simplicity reasons, but in-game the two states are different. I don't see how it's a stretch at all. I've checked my hard-copy of the PHB (which is, admittedly, 3.0, but I don't think the flavor details of the base races changed much in 3.5), and it does directly state (page 16; I don't know if I'm legally allowed to quote directly, even though I think two sentences should be allowed under Fair Use, so I won't unless someone tells me for certain that I can) that elves do not sleep, the way other races do, and that they instead (the book in fact uses the word "instead") meditate for four hours. The passage goes on to discuss dreams that elves have during trance--which are in fact well-practiced mental exercises. All of this tells me that that, as far as the writers of the game intended, elves do not and physically cannot experience the state that humans understand as "sleep."


I think we use the terms RAW (or canon) in contrast to the usually pejorative home-rule (or homebrew); as in "That's not RAW it's JUST a home-rule". However, some GM rulings are not home-rules, they are rules interpretation. A home rule is "In my game, Elves don't have to sleep or meditate" an interpretation is "An elf will fall unconscious if he fails to meditate (or sleep)" The latter is not written in the rules but is implied.

It was certainly not my intention to be insulting or to use the term "canon" in a pejorative manner. I was merely expressing the belief that I don't think your interpretation of elves' nocturnal habits completely meshes with what is written in the books. And that's absolutely okay; I think you should change or modify the given rules in any way that makes the game more fun and immersive for you and your group. I just don't think that what you're suggesting dovetails with what's printed in the PHB.


In fact according to the rules, there is no worse penalty than exhausted, so there is no rule about when a character must sleep. You simply go from fatigued to exhausted to perpetual wakefulness. It's not a home-rule to say that after X days your character passes out from exhaustion. It's interpreting the rules.

I suppose that that's an omission on the part of the writers, but I'd be comfortable saying that, as a house rule, after several days of wakefulness you need to make Con checks/Fort saves in order to stay awake, and even if you do stay awake, you start hallucinating.


Likewise, in adjudicating the elves need for sleep, the PHB says elves do not sleep as other common races do. It does not say they do not need sleep or they cannot sleep.

I'm looking at the text in the PHB, and there's nothing there that indicates or suggests that elves can sleep if they want to, or that trance is merely an alternative option. The fact that the word "instead" is used to introduce the concept of trance suggests rather directly to me that it is a complete replacement. I see no reason to conclude from the text that "elves do not sleep" means anything other than that they don't sleep. It also says that elves gain the same benefit from trance that other races do from sleep, which rather directly suggests that elves have no need for sleep.

[Desaril]

It's interesting that although wiki (clearly not the most authoritative source for scientific knowledge) does not indicate what the differences between sleep and unconsciousness. Mostly people talk about REM and stuff like that, but what is the real difference?

I agree that elves can't be compelled to sleep, but why wouldn't they be compelled to meditate/trance by the same spell. As you point out, meditation is their replacement.

Also notice that a sleep really doesn't convince you to go to sleep, it immediately renders you helpless and apparently unconscious, i.e unaware. Sleep is not a recognized condition according to the RAW and the spell text does not use the word unconscious, but only helpless It does not work on creatures who are already unconscious, but would work on a sleeping creature. Therefore, it's seems like sleep actuallly renders you unconscious

If sleep is not unconsciousness, the spell shouldn't work. If the spell just convince you to fall asleep, you would still have to lay down, get comfortable and slowly fall asleep. Humans cannot fall immediately asleep under their own power, so the magic of the spell allows humans to do something they are physically incapable of doing. It therefore reasons, that the elven sleep immunity is not based on a supposed inability to sleep. No being is able to fall asleep under the circumstances of the spell.

I think that instead means "as an alternative to" it does not have to mean "as the only replacement for". For example "I go to Burger King instead of McDonalds", does not mean I must go to Burger King or that I cannot go to McDonalds. Similarly, just because I don't eat at McDonalds doesn't mean I can't eat at McDonalds.

I admit that it is possible that the difference between sleep and mediation is the difference between scarlet and crimson, but why bother putting that function in the rules? Like I said, elves in fantasy books are always alert, so I think elves are alert during mediation. In fact, even normal people are not "zoned out" when they mediate see the wiki on meditation.

[TheOOB]

Even a humans senses still work while they are sleeping, though at a much reduced capcity. A bright light, a loud sounds, or a harsh stimulation of any of the other sense can wake a human up from sleep, though not always when they are unconsious.

As far as game rules go, I count trance as being identical to sleep except that it a)only lasts 4 hours, and b)you don't dream in the traditional sense (it comes up occasionally). However, as the rules clearly state even elves require 8 hours of rest before they can prepare spells, trance or no trance.

Think of it like this, you need 8 hours of calm before you can cast spells. A human will normally (but does not have to) sleep during this time as it saves time and they can't do much else during this time otherwise. An elf likewise usually traces during this time, simply out of convienance.

If you need a fluff explaination, think of it like this. Wizardry is an exact science, unlike sorcerery or divine casting a wizards spells come from complex forumlas and intricate rituals. Just as the components of a spell must be perfect in order for the spell to be cast, the conditions must be exactally perfect for spells to be prepared in the first place. One of the magical requirments to clear space in your mind in order to prepare spells is 8 hours of rest, this requirement is magical in nature and has nothing to do with your physical state of being. Barring a racial/class ability that specifically notes otherwise, all beings need this 8 hours to prepare wizard spells, even the gods.

[Desaril]

Hey OOB, I'm apparently chasing you around the forums, but I have to disagree with your fluff response. If it really were that simple, than different people could be better at the "clearing of the mind". Why can't uber dragon-descended super mage learn to prepare his mind in less time? Why does it take just as long to prepare 1st level spells as 9th level spells.

[Jannex]

It's interesting that although wiki (clearly not the most authoritative source for scientific knowledge) does not indicate what the differences between sleep and unconsciousness. Mostly people talk about REM and stuff like that, but what is the real difference?

The brain undergoes specific activities during sleep, which can be detected using an electroencephalogram. In fact, it undergoes different activities during different stages of sleep. Also, I've consulted with a friend who majored in psychology, and she has confirmed that sleep and unconsciousness are discrete states.


I agree that elves can't be compelled to sleep, but why wouldn't they be compelled to meditate/trance by the same spell. As you point out, meditation is their replacement.

Because sleep and trance are different physical states. Elves and humans are separate species, with different neurochemistry. Their brains recharge in different ways. The Sleep spell induces a specific brain-state, of which elves are incapable; hence their immunity.


Also notice that a sleep really doesn't convince you to go to sleep, it immediately renders you helpless and apparently unconscious, i.e unaware. Sleep is not a recognized condition according to the RAW and the spell text does not use the word unconscious, but only helpless It does not work on creatures who are already unconscious, but would work on a sleeping creature. Therefore, it's seems like sleep actuallly renders you unconscious

The spell induces a state of "comatose slumber." One can assume that the writers of the PHB are either not neurobiologists or weren't interested in this exacting a degree of verisimilitude, as this phrase is a contradiction in terms. If we conclude that the adjective "comatose" was being used in a colloquial, rather than a clinical, sense, we are left with the spell inducing a deep slumber, which sounds to me like sleep, but there's room for argument, I suppose. It is worth noting, however, that a victim of a Sleep spell can be awoken through slapping or wounding, whereas characters rendered unconscious through poison or negative HP cannot be thusly revived. While the RAW are insufficiently specific, it would seem to me that what is happening here is that the spell is magically forcing the target's brain into a sleep state (probably stage 4 sleep).


If sleep is not unconsciousness, the spell shouldn't work. If the spell just convince you to fall asleep, you would still have to lay down, get comfortable and slowly fall asleep. Humans cannot fall immediately asleep under their own power, so the magic of the spell allows humans to do something they are physically incapable of doing. It therefore reasons, that the elven sleep immunity is not based on a supposed inability to sleep. No being is able to fall asleep under the circumstances of the spell.

This discussion would be far more fruitful if the state of sleep were actually quantified in some fashion in the canon rules. I see no reason to assume, however, that the Sleep spell does not do exactly what it says on the tin, and magically induce and maintain a state of deep sleep in the targets. It logically follows, then, that any creature incapable of sleep is immune to this effect.


I think that instead means "as an alternative to" it does not have to mean "as the only replacement for". For example "I go to Burger King instead of McDonalds", does not mean I must go to Burger King or that I cannot go to McDonalds. Similarly, just because I don't eat at McDonalds doesn't mean I can't eat at McDonalds.

I think in this case, it's being used more as, "Humans do not undergo photosynthesis, as plants do. Instead, they eat food found in their environment." It's a different process to fulfill the same need. Humans cannot choose to photosynthesize if they don't feel like eating, because they're not biologically equipped to undergo photosynthesis. There is nothing in the text to suggest that trance is merely a whim or an option for elves. They are a different species, and have different physiological capabilities and needs.


I admit that it is possible that the difference between sleep and mediation is the difference between scarlet and crimson, but why bother putting that function in the rules? Like I said, elves in fantasy books are always alert, so I think elves are alert during mediation. In fact, even normal people are not "zoned out" when they mediate see the wiki on meditation.

It isn't mentioned in the "rules," save for the elven immunity to sleep effects. It's mentioned in the description of the elven species. They put it in because elves in fantasy books are depicted as fundamentally different than humans, and a little bit alien. They're detached and graceful. D&D depicts them as spending their dormant hours in a meditative trance, rather than snoring away like Redgar in the next bedroll.

Further, there are different levels of meditation, hypnosis, and trance. The description calls it a "deep trance," which implies something more involved than a simple visualization exercise or mantra. It says that elves dream in this state. I don't think that's intended to suggest that they're alert and ready for action.

[Orzel]

I always said that spellslots need to be healed before they are used again. You must wait 8 hours of low brain activity for your brain and body to restore them. Even though an elf can refresh her body with 4 hours of rest, her spellsots are only half restored.

[Inyssius Tor]

Think of it like this, you need 8 hours of calm before you can cast spells. A human will normally (but does not have to) sleep during this time as it saves time and they can't do much else during this time otherwise. An elf likewise usually traces during this time, simply out of convienance.

If you need a fluff explaination, think of it like this. Wizardry is an exact science, unlike sorcerery or divine casting a wizards spells come from complex forumlas and intricate rituals. Just as the components of a spell must be perfect in order for the spell to be cast, the conditions must be exactally perfect for spells to be prepared in the first place. One of the magical requirments to clear space in your mind in order to prepare spells is 8 hours of rest, this requirement is magical in nature and has nothing to do with your physical state of being. Barring a racial/class ability that specifically notes otherwise, all beings need this 8 hours to prepare wizard spells, even the gods.
for what it's worth, some random wizard quoted in Complete Mage agrees with you (the relevant quotation is in the spoiler below, because it's pretty long).

"Have you ever seen a scribe readying a page to copy a piece of text? The scribe scrapes the sheet clean, then carefully traces out perfectly straight lines to contain the text and set it in order. Finally, the scribe sharpens a quill and carefully forms each letter in the text, stringing the characters together to form words, paragraphs, and finally the whole page.
"Preparing a spell is like that.
"I have my spellbooks, the original manuscript. I begin the process by resting my mind and body, erasing the detritus from the previous day. Sleep wipes my mental parchment clean. When I awake, a [yes, this should read "I"] focus for a while. I cast off the details of my dreams and set my thoughts in order, just like a scribe setting the rules and margins on a page. When I finish, I have built a mental structure for my spells. This is the essence of magic. As I have continued to hone my magical art, I find I can create more and more mental pages to contain my spells.
"When I have created as many blank pages as my mind can hold, I turn to my spellbook and copy the spells I need. I don't use pen and ink, of course, I carefully review the arcane formulae recorded in the book and fill the empty structures in my mind with magical power. There's no feeling quite like finishing preparation for a spell. Thoughts swirl like autumn leaves through my mind. By sheer force of training and will, I force those mental leaves into motes of arcane power. These motes collect on the framework like beads of dew on a spider's web. The final result is a thing of stunning and divine beauty. With every breath I take, I can feel the structure thrum with power."
I might let a mid-to-high-level elven wizard prepare spells during the last hour of trance...

[Desaril]

The brain undergoes specific activities during sleep, which can be detected using an electroencephalogram. In fact, it undergoes different activities during different stages of sleep. Also, I've consulted with a friend who majored in psychology, and she has confirmed that sleep and unconsciousness are discrete states.

All you really proved is that the brain is active during sleep (and you have a "friend" somewhere who claims to be an expert and agrees with you. Guess what? So do I.


Because sleep and trance are different physical states. Elves and humans are separate species, with different neurochemistry. Their brains recharge in different ways. The Sleep spell induces a specific brain-state, of which elves are incapable; hence their immunity.

It's amazing that sleep and trance are as alike as you need them to be, but different enough that they support your argument that they are similar. They share the same diminished awareness (and presumably grogginess when awakening), but they are different enough that you can magically compel a human to go to sleep, but not compel an elf to trance. Amazingly, sleep works on all the other humanoids despite their different neurochemistry...


The spell induces a state of "comatose slumber." One can assume that the writers of the PHB are either not neurobiologists or weren't interested in this exacting a degree of verisimilitude, as this phrase is a contradiction in terms. If we conclude that the adjective "comatose" was being used in a colloquial, rather than a clinical, sense, we are left with the spell inducing a deep slumber, which sounds to me like sleep, but there's room for argument, I suppose. It is worth noting, however, that a victim of a Sleep spell can be awoken through slapping or wounding, whereas characters rendered unconscious through poison or negative HP cannot be thusly revived. While the RAW are insufficiently specific, it would seem to me that what is happening here is that the spell is magically forcing the target's brain into a sleep state (probably stage 4 sleep).

You're right! Sleep renders you asleep, but the game designers implicitly describe that as a state between consciousness and unconsciousness. You're helpless, but can be easily awakened. My point is that humans cannot fall immediately asleep, although they can be rendered immediately unconscious.


This discussion would be far more fruitful if the state of sleep were actually quantified in some fashion in the canon rules. I see no reason to assume, however, that the Sleep spell does not do exactly what it says on the tin, and magically induce and maintain a state of deep sleep in the targets. It logically follows, then, that any creature incapable of sleep is immune to this effect.

I think the spell immediately renders you barely unconscious (supporting the spectrum, rather than the discrete state theory). It differs from both normal sleep and unconsciousness.


I think in this case, it's being used more as, "Humans do not undergo photosynthesis, as plants do. Instead, they eat food found in their environment." It's a different process to fulfill the same need. Humans cannot choose to photosynthesize if they don't feel like eating, because they're not biologically equipped to undergo photosynthesis. There is nothing in the text to suggest that trance is merely a whim or an option for elves. They are a different species, and have different physiological capabilities and needs.

That could be the meaning, but there is little evidence to support that interpretation. There is nothing to sugggest either interpretation right (or wrong).


It isn't mentioned in the "rules," save for the elven immunity to sleep effects. It's mentioned in the description of the elven species. They put it in because elves in fantasy books are depicted as fundamentally different than humans, and a little bit alien. They're detached and graceful. D&D depicts them as spending their dormant hours in a meditative trance, rather than snoring away like Redgar in the next bedroll.

I consider the text "rules". My whole point is that the notion of elven trance/sleep is an attempt to be true to the fantasy genre rather than an attempt to create artificial science. In fantasy books, elves are never "caught napping", they can go without sleep through entire adventures, but we never hear that elves "cannot" sleep, just that they don't.


Further, there are different levels of meditation, hypnosis, and trance. The description calls it a "deep trance," which implies something more involved than a simple visualization exercise or mantra. It says that elves dream in this state. I don't think that's intended to suggest that they're alert and ready for action.

You're right, the trance could very well be deep, but then the distinction between sleep and trance would be the difference between crimson and scarlet. Why bother. Also see above.

[Jannex]

All you really proved is that the brain is active during sleep (and you have a "friend" somewhere who claims to be an expert and agrees with you. Guess what? So do I.

And all you've proven just now is that you're willing to call my honesty into question if you think it'll win you points in an argument. Very nice.


It's amazing that sleep and trance are as alike as you need them to be, but different enough that they support your argument that they are similar. They share the same diminished awareness (and presumably grogginess when awakening), but they are different enough that you can magically compel a human to go to sleep, but not compel an elf to trance. Amazingly, sleep works on all the other humanoids despite their different neurochemistry...

I don't "need them to be" anything in particular. I'm just reading the book. The book says that elves don't sleep; they trance instead. The fact that the book doesn't go into exacting detail about the mechanical effects of trance suggests to me that it's mechanically similar to sleep, while the fact that they explicitly state that it's a different phenomenon, coupled with the elven immunity to sleep spells, suggests rather plainly to me that they're separate states. The only thing here that I find "amazing" is your sarcasm.


You're right! Sleep renders you asleep, but the game designers implicitly describe that as a state between consciousness and unconsciousness. You're helpless, but can be easily awakened. My point is that humans cannot fall immediately asleep, although they can be rendered immediately unconscious.

That's great, except that it's a magic spell. Why can't a magic spell immediately force the human brain into a sleep pattern?


I think the spell immediately renders you barely unconscious (supporting the spectrum, rather than the discrete state theory). It differs from both normal sleep and unconsciousness.

It differs from normal sleep only in that it's harder to awaken the victim, which is easily attributable to the fact that it's a magical effect forcing the victim's brain into a specific "gear."


That could be the meaning, but there is little evidence to support that interpretation. There is nothing to sugggest either interpretation right (or wrong).

There is little evidence to suggest that the phrase "Elves do not sleep" is intended to mean "elves do sleep, but only sometimes." If the game designers had intended for elves to sleep "sometimes," it seems far more likely that they would have mentioned so in the paragraph devoted to elven nocturnal necessities. I'm just taking the game designers at their word.


I consider the text "rules". My whole point is that the notion of elven trance/sleep is an attempt to be true to the fantasy genre rather than an attempt to create artificial science. In fantasy books, elves are never "caught napping", they can go without sleep through entire adventures, but we never hear that elves "cannot" sleep, just that they don't.

In fantasy books, elves are depicted as fundamentally different from humans in significant ways. They're intended to represent something "alien" and "removed." Other species, like dwarves and halflings, have their own cultures, but they're more relatable. The thematic purpose of elves is to represent the "Other." Thus, it makes perfect sense for them not to experience sleep in the way that other races do.


You're right, the trance could very well be deep, but then the distinction between sleep and trance would be the difference between crimson and scarlet. Why bother. Also see above.

Why bother? For thematic, "flavor" purposes--"to be true to the fantasy genre," as you discussed above. It doesn't need to be completely bizarre (and, in fact, this would detract from the effort; Otherness is most effective when the differences are subtle). For game balance reasons, the designers most likely wouldn't want a common player race that could be awake and alert for danger 24/7, but having subtle differences in the "sleep" needs of elves singles them out in a meaningful way, in keeping with their thematic purpose.

[Desaril]

Sometimes, I think you see my point exactly, but choose to ignore it. Or it's like those funny pictures that look like dots until you stare at it long enough. Then you see it and go "WOW"!

The SLEEP spell is a magical effect. It could easily render any target asleep despite their ability or inability to sleep. That was my point. You tried to argue that SLEEP does not work on elves because they can't sleep. The fact that the spell makes the impossible possible (by rendering humans immediately asleep but not unconscious) means that the limits of elven physiology is not really a barrier. It's not because elves don't (or can't) sleep. Its becuase they are magically immune.

Like you say, SLEEP produces a magical effect that differs from both normal sleep (it is immediate and harder to awaken), but is not exactly unconsciousness. Perhaps a good term is slight unconsciousness. Either way, the fact that there is something between the two states indicates there is a spectrum. Of course, we can create a line between the two and say this side is deep sleep and this side is slight unconsciousness, but we really are splitting hairs.

If you are taking the designers at their word (why would you do that, they make mistakes like you and I), then you would accept that they don't sleep, not that they can't sleep. That's what it says. The truth is you (and I) interpret that entire section. We get different meanings out of it and the text itself doesn't resolve our interpretation problems.

We agree that elves (dwarves, gnomes, etc) represent the Other. But how is the Other different? One way is that elves seem not to sleep. The rules text doesn't explain it fully, so I defer to the source material because I believe the designers are trying to simulate elves from fantasy fiction. Therefore, I think that elves sleep eventually. I also assume that elves are do not lose awareness while meditating. You could also believe that the designers were not trying to simulate fantasy elves and therefore elven trance is just like sleep, just more efficient. I think the easier way to do that would be simply to say that elves sleep half as long as humans (and other races) or can go twice as long on the same sleep or whatever. By indicating that they don't sleep, I think they mean elves are awake, i.e. aware.

BTW, I did not intend to call your honesty into question. I apologize if I was not clear and you took offense. I truly believe you have a friend who agrees with you. I'm saying "so what?". I have a friend who agrees with me. And I bet any number of posters can make that claim. If you can point to an authoritative source that has increased credibility (independent, corroborated by other experts, published, etc), I won't raise that particular argument.

[Jannex]

Sometimes, I think you see my point exactly, but choose to ignore it. Or it's like those funny pictures that look like dots until you stare at it long enough. Then you see it and go "WOW"!

I don't choose to ignore your point; I just think you're incorrect. I've been trying to explain why, but apparently I'm not making myself sufficiently clear.


The SLEEP spell is a magical effect. It could easily render any target asleep despite their ability or inability to sleep. That was my point. You tried to argue that SLEEP does not work on elves because they can't sleep. The fact that the spell makes the impossible possible (by rendering humans immediately asleep but not unconscious) means that the limits of elven physiology is not really a barrier. It's not because elves don't (or can't) sleep. Its becuase they are magically immune.

I see no reason to assume that the spell "makes the impossible possible." The Sleep spell is easily explained as an effect that magically forces the target's brain into a "sleep" pattern and holds it there, barring severe disruption. Elves, whose brains lack a "sleep" pattern, are unaffected.


Like you say, SLEEP produces a magical effect that differs from both normal sleep (it is immediate and harder to awaken), but is not exactly unconsciousness. Perhaps a good term is slight unconsciousness. Either way, the fact that there is something between the two states indicates there is a spectrum. Of course, we can create a line between the two and say this side is deep sleep and this side is slight unconsciousness, but we really are splitting hairs.

Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I never said or implied that the effect of a Sleep spell was qualitatively different than normal sleep; the only difference evident in the rules is that one is magically-induced and -enforced. I see no need to create a "spectrum" or to attribute the spell effect to some third state between sleep and unconsciousness.


If you are taking the designers at their word (why would you do that, they make mistakes like you and I), then you would accept that they don't sleep, not that they can't sleep. That's what it says. The truth is you (and I) interpret that entire section. We get different meanings out of it and the text itself doesn't resolve our interpretation problems.

I take the game designers at their word because they're the ones who wrote the game, and presumably know better than you or I what they intended to say. Contextually, saying that a person or group "does not do X" and then going on to describe what that person or group does instead of X, generally means that the person or group NEVER does X. If (by way of example) you meet a woman at a party and offer her a drink, and she tells you that she "does not drink alcohol," the most semantically-valid conclusion (if you take her at her word) is that she chooses NEVER to drink alcohol, and unless something changes her mind in the future, that she NEVER WILL choose to drink alcohol, not that she drinks alcohol sometimes but doesn't feel like it right now.

It seems to me that your interpretation would be much more logical if the game designers had phrased the elves' entry as, "Elves do not usually sleep," or, "Elves do not often sleep." Their omission of a qualifying adverb in this case does not seem accidental, especially given the context of the rest of the paragraph. Based on the phrasing of the text, I am unclear as to why it seems any more reasonable to assume that elves can sleep, than it would be to conclude that humans can undergo photosynthesis, were the nutritional needs of humans described in a similarly-phrased text.


We agree that elves (dwarves, gnomes, etc) represent the Other.

This is not, in fact, what I said. I never said nor implied that ALL the nonhuman player races represent the Other. I said this of elves in particular--that this was their specific narrative role in much of the high-fantasy genre. Each nonhuman race can be said to have a specific symbolic role: (half-)orcs represent the savagery and brutality that humanity likes to pretend isn't really part of our own species. Gnomes serve as comic relief. Dwarves represent the value of tradition and stability in our world--of being "down to earth" and remembering one's roots. Elves symbolize the Other, the impossible ideal of perfection for which humans strive, but can never achieve. They are often depicted as immortal, or nearly so. They are generally very beautiful, in an inhuman, ethereal way. Often they seem almost prescient in their intelligence and awareness. They do not spend a third of their ageless lifetimes asleep. That was the point I was trying to make.


But how is the Other different? One way is that elves seem not to sleep. The rules text doesn't explain it fully, so I defer to the source material because I believe the designers are trying to simulate elves from fantasy fiction. Therefore, I think that elves sleep eventually. I also assume that elves are do not lose awareness while meditating. You could also believe that the designers were not trying to simulate fantasy elves and therefore elven trance is just like sleep, just more efficient. I think the easier way to do that would be simply to say that elves sleep half as long as humans (and other races) or can go twice as long on the same sleep or whatever. By indicating that they don't sleep, I think they mean elves are awake, i.e. aware.

See, I do think that the game designers were trying to emulate fantasy and mythological elves--but they were also trying to create a balanced +0 level-adjustment player race. So they altered the flavor of elven "sleep" and halved its duration, but kept its mechanics so that they wouldn't end up with an elf in every PC party who could stay up the entire night and eliminate the need for any other character to take a watch. They still succeed in making elves fundamentally different from other races in a symbolic way, but do so without unbalancing the game. Makes perfect sense to me.


BTW, I did not intend to call your honesty into question. I apologize if I was not clear and you took offense. I truly believe you have a friend who agrees with you. I'm saying "so what?". I have a friend who agrees with me. And I bet any number of posters can make that claim. If you can point to an authoritative source that has increased credibility (independent, corroborated by other experts, published, etc), I won't raise that particular argument.

Thank you for your apology; it sounded as though you doubted the existence or veracity of my friend, and I did not fancy being called a liar. However, it seems as though you've ceded the point that sleep and unconsciousness are two physically different states, so the issue is moot.

[Sam K]

Amazingly, sleep works on all the other humanoids despite their different neurochemistry...


All other humanoid races sleep. Im also willing to wager those humanoid races age different than elves, who dont become infirm, but rather more spiritual and less concerned with physical matters (including their own bodies). Elves dont even die from old age, they just go on long vacations (yes, this is kind of silly, but that's how it goes).

So, why do elves receive the same penalties as sleeping humanoids when in trance? And why cant they prepare spells after 4 hours of rest, despite being able to completely recover physically and mentally duing that time?

The answer is level adjustment.

If elves were able to be completely alert when recovering, that would be a significant bonus (especially when combined with their racial bonuses to awareness skills). Consider how often adventurers get attacked in their sleep. And if elven wizards could prepare their spells after half the downtime of other races, again, that would make elven casters far more flexible than other races. It would be silly to let them go with no level adjustment (all casters would be elves), but if you gave them a level adjustment for something that wont affect the majority of the classes, elves would only be casters because they would be outrageously bad as everything else. In either case, the elf groupies (of which there are several) would be mad. So, they fudged the rules a wee bit to balance elves as LA 0.

Personally, I would rule that elves have more bonus and a serious LA (or possibly even racial hit dice), since they're suppose to be old, fairly rare, and very different from other races. But again, you wont see that in D&D because the elf groupies would be mad if it was made inconvenient to play elves.

[Aquillion]

I think that, per the fact that it's omitted from the SRD, elf meditation is purely flavor fluff with no authoritative game effects at all--in game terms, an elf must spend a full eight hours in a state mechanically identical to sleep, just like everyone else. This is not very exciting or flavorful, but serves an important game-mechanics purpose, so it's not really that surprising... elves have to do something mechanically identical to the sleep of all other races for the same reason they don't actually get many benefits from their extra years of life, Warforged don't get low-light vision, and so on.

[MeklorIlavator]

Except that it is listed in the PHB. And even if its not in the SRD, its still exists. Mindflayers, Beholders, and a couple of tables aren't there. Does that mean that these things aren't in the game? No, it just means that the SRD is incomplete and that the Hard copies trump the electronic, except concerning errata.

[Desaril]

I don't think that not needing to sleep is such an advantage that it requires a level adjustment. I also think the game designers have considered that elves don't sleep into the balance. They've read a few fantasy books and know that the elf will catch most of the night watches.

@ Jannex- you're right, you never said that that the sleep spell was qualitatively different from normal sleep. The SRD does. The sleep spell is immediate and you don't wake up from falling down from its affects (assuming you were standing). But you did say that sleep was different from unconsciousness which it resembles more closely. Further, the point is that if the spell could make nearly any other race fall asleep (even races that don't need to sleep) it could work on elves. The fact is that there is no explanation for why elves are immune. Anything we come up with is just guesswork based on our interpretation.

I agree with your explanation about can't/don't and the reasonable interpretation of the words. If we were stuck only with the text of the PHB, I would probably agree that elves don't have to sleep. However, there is (and you never respond to this) SUPPORTING LITERATURE that indicates otherwise. Elves in many fantasy books I've read have to sleep eventually. But in the short term they don't have to and they are not caught napping. That background fills in the gaps.

Don't forget that your analogy (photosynthesis) includes the knowledge that we cannot use photosynthesis which comes from more than just your statement. It's assumed (like my knowledge about elven sleeping habits) from outside knowledge. A similar example would be if I said "humans don't live on the moon." We don't (normally). But we can (and have for short periods of time). I only know the truth by incorporating my additional knowledge beyond my quotation. If I'd never heard of the Apollo missions, I might accept that we don't because we can't.

I did misunderstand your concept of the Other. I thought you simply meant different. It seems you mean different and better. I think the elves also represent the purposeless pursuit of perfection. The waste of limitless life. The inability to take immediate decisive action. My point is that the other races are supposed to be different in more than just philosophy. They have different "powers" dwarves and half-orcs can see in the dark, gnomes have heightened smell and illusion powers, halflings are extra stealthy and elves are great watchmen because they can rest while watching. I don't think that's too unbalancing.

[Jannex]

I don't think that not needing to sleep is such an advantage that it requires a level adjustment. I also think the game designers have considered that elves don't sleep into the balance. They've read a few fantasy books and know that the elf will catch most of the night watches.

I've had characters ambushed during sleep enough times that I have a healthy appreciation for how vulnerable a character is during the night, and how enormous a benefit it would be to have a character who was awake and alert 24/7. Heck, even a Ring of Sustenance, priced at 2,500gp, still requires you to get two full hours of sleep a night. A +0 LA race is going to do better than that? I find this highly unlikely--especially when you consider elves' racial bonuses to awareness Skills. Sam K was right in his assessment of how advantageous that would be, both for spellcasters and alertness-monkeys. Level adjustment is meant to solve the problem of, "why would you ever not do this?" And if elves never needed recuperative "downtime" in a state similar to sleep, that's exactly the situation you'd encounter: why would you ever NOT make your spellcaster or your alertness-monkey a pointy-eared freak? So rather than add a level adjustment, they made elves need a little recharge time. On average, your elf is still your best night-watchman, with his bonuses to Spot and Listen and his low-light vision, and he can watch for half the night. It keeps to the spirit of the fantasy archetype, without being too unbalanced.


@ Jannex- you're right, you never said that that the sleep spell was qualitatively different from normal sleep. The SRD does. The sleep spell is immediate and you don't wake up from falling down from its affects (assuming you were standing). But you did say that sleep was different from unconsciousness which it resembles more closely. Further, the point is that if the spell could make nearly any other race fall asleep (even races that don't need to sleep) it could work on elves. The fact is that there is no explanation for why elves are immune. Anything we come up with is just guesswork based on our interpretation.

I'm not seeing anywhere in the SRD description of the Sleep spell where it suggests that its effets are qualitatively different from normal sleep, other than that the effect is instantaneous and the target is slightly more difficult to arouse--both of which anomalies can be easily attributed to the fact that a magical effect is forcing the target's brain into a sleep pattern. Again, we come back to game balance; the spell would be utterly useless if the targets woke up immediately as a result of falling to the ground, or from the sounds of battle going on around them. The wizard who first developed the spell knew that, and so s/he made the spell such that it induced a very deep sleep (Have you ever been so exhausted that you slept right through your alarm clock? I have. However, someone kicking me in the face would still have woken me up in a hurry), so that even as a first-level spell, it wouldn't be completely useless.

And just so we're clear, what other "races that don't need to sleep" are affected by the Sleep spell? And how do we know that those races don't need to sleep? This seems to be the key point of your argument that "there is no explanation why elves are immune to sleep," and I want to make sure it's substantiated before we proceed any further with it. Because if that point fails, then it only makes sense that elves are immune to magical sleep simply because it isn't something that their bodies DO.


I agree with your explanation about can't/don't and the reasonable interpretation of the words. If we were stuck only with the text of the PHB, I would probably agree that elves don't have to sleep. However, there is (and you never respond to this) SUPPORTING LITERATURE that indicates otherwise. Elves in many fantasy books I've read have to sleep eventually. But in the short term they don't have to and they are not caught napping. That background fills in the gaps.

There are as many different versions of elves in narrative fantasy as there are authors who have ever written on the subject of elves. While there are certainly common themes in their treatment, the way that each individual source chooses to portray them varies. The way the writers of D&D seem to have chosen to illustrate elves' uncanny alertness is by giving them racial bonuses to Spot and Listen, letting them automatically check to notice secret doors, by having them require only half as much "downtime" per night as other races need, and by changing the nature of that downtime into something different and unusual, from a human perspective. That treatment is every bit as valid and genre-appropriate as making elves into sleep-camels.


Don't forget that your analogy (photosynthesis) includes the knowledge that we cannot use photosynthesis which comes from more than just your statement. It's assumed (like my knowledge about elven sleeping habits) from outside knowledge. A similar example would be if I said "humans don't live on the moon." We don't (normally). But we can (and have for short periods of time). I only know the truth by incorporating my additional knowledge beyond my quotation. If I'd never heard of the Apollo missions, I might accept that we don't because we can't.

Last time I checked, humans still cannot "live on the moon." "To live somewhere" connotes a certain element of day-to-day routine, a home-like atmosphere, a residence. If you're talking about merely sustaining biological functions for a period of time, the better word to use in that case is "surviving." Humans can survive on the moon, for short periods of time, under specific conditions. We do not live there, and indeed we cannot, given the current state of technology. Even notwithstanding the lack of oxygen, air pressure, food, and protection from the sun, the diminished gravity causes deleterious changes in the human body after prolonged exposure.

Regarding photosynthesis, let's leave humans aside for a moment. Let's pretend I have just discovered a new species of organism. We'll call it a Snark (because Lewis Carroll is awesome). I am, for this thought experiment, a biologist, and have been studying my Snark for some time. You, a fellow biologist for the sake of this supposition, ask me about its nutritional requirements. I tell you, "The Snark does not undergo photosynthesis. Instead, it consumes bits of organic material from its environment and metabolizes them." I have not told you whether the Snark is a plant, an animal, a protozoan, or a fungus. Its taxonomy is a mystery to you. Based solely on the two sentences of description I have provided for you, is it reasonable to conclude that the Snark is capable of photosynthesis?"


I did misunderstand your concept of the Other. I thought you simply meant different. It seems you mean different and better.

Not quite. By "Other," I meant to invoke the term as it is used in literary analysis, to mean "fundamentally not-us." As I understand the genre, the other PC races in D&D (dwarves, gnomes, half-orcs, etc.) represent facets of humanity, aspects of our own culture and identity. Elves, by contrast, seem to represent exactly what we are not: they live in harmony with nature, they possess the wisdom and perspective of a centuries-old being, and in so many other small, subtle ways, they distinguish themselves as being fundamentally alien to humanity, though seemingly very similar to cursory inspection. This isn't something so simple as being "better"--dwarves are "better" than humans by being tougher, half-orcs are "better" by being stronger. That's not the point. Elves represent something unattainable, something fundamentally not-us. That's what I was getting at through the use of the term "Other."


I think the elves also represent the purposeless pursuit of perfection. The waste of limitless life. The inability to take immediate decisive action. My point is that the other races are supposed to be different in more than just philosophy. They have different "powers" dwarves and half-orcs can see in the dark, gnomes have heightened smell and illusion powers, halflings are extra stealthy and elves are great watchmen because they can rest while watching. I don't think that's too unbalancing.

Elves are great watchmen because they are more observant than humans, and can see in dim light. They also have better reflexes to react to danger (+2 Dex). They also only require half as much "downtime" as other races at night. They're pretty awesome. If they didn't need any downtime at all, that would be unbalancing.

[Desaril]

OK, it appears we're going round and round.

The books do not answer this question one way or the other definitively. It does not say elves cannot sleep. It does not say that trance is virtually identical to sleep. We are trying to interpret those things. I'm not sure, but from your arguments, you interpret them to accomplish what you think balances your game. I interpret them based on my experience with the genre. Both are entirely acceptable and noble aims. I will admit that I favor fluff over crunch, because as a DM, I can always rebalance the mechanics. I don't need the books/rules to make the game a challenge, so I may allow things that other GMs find unbalancing.

However, I don't think all of your interpretations are logically consistent and flow rationally from their premises and lead inexorably to your conclusions. If you do, perhaps I misunderstand your premies. I also think that some of your arguments make distinctions with no difference.

For example, can humans live on the moon? I suppose a newborn who dies after 24 hours didn't really "live on earth", she merely "survived on earth". The fact is just because someone doesn't do something, doesn't mean they can't.

In your analogy of the Snark, you ask is it reasonable to conclude that snarks are capable of photosynthesis. No, but that doesn't mean that they can't. The difference is I know more about elves than I do about snarks. I have all the background information about elves that fleshes them out in my game. Your elves (and WOTC elves) may be different, but its a matter of interpretation, not rule-making. The rules are sufficiently vague to come to either conclusion.

To answer your question about creatures that don't need to sleep, but are not immune to sleep, I will remind you of our previous discussion of outsiders. They do not sleep, but are not immune. Your argument was that the fact that they can be compelled to sleep indicates they are able to sleep and the elves inability to sleep is justification for their immunity.

I think that's generally a good argument, but the problem is that you also admit that the sleep effect is not normal sleep. It induces an abnormal sleep. Therefore, since no creature engages in sleep, like that of the Sleep spell, elves are no different than other creatures in that respect. If elves cannot be be compelled to fall into the unnatural sleep of the Sleep spell because they don't sleep that way; then every creature could rely on that defense.

Further, as you increase the similarities between "trance" and normal sleep, it seems like the Sleep spell would magically adapt to make an elf enter a trance instead. The fact is the elves immunity to sleep magic is unexplained. We don't need an explanation for why they're immune than we do for why it works. It's magic.

[Jannex]

OK, it appears we're going round and round.

Indeed.


The books do not answer this question one way or the other definitively. It does not say elves cannot sleep. It does not say that trance is virtually identical to sleep. We are trying to interpret those things. I'm not sure, but from your arguments, you interpret them to accomplish what you think balances your game.

No. I'm interpreting them in such a way that I think is consistent and makes logical sense. I'm explaining why I think the game designers made certain decisions for the sake of game balance, but that has nothing to do with any particular needs that I have.


I interpret them based on my experience with the genre. Both are entirely acceptable and noble aims. I will admit that I favor fluff over crunch, because as a DM, I can always rebalance the mechanics. I don't need the books/rules to make the game a challenge, so I may allow things that other GMs find unbalancing.

You seem to be under the impression that my reading of the text is based on mechanics concerns rather than in-game flavor. This is not the case. My explanations have involved mechanics concerns because I've been trying to get at what the game designers may have been thinking, and in D&D, mechanics seem to be of greater concern than "fluff"--which is one of the reasons I tend to prefer White Wolf. But my understanding of what elves are in D&D, based on my experience with the genre, supports my interpretation of elven rest. I think that suggesting that elves eventually need to sleep just like every other humanoid race diminishes them thematically. Elves are, in all of the fantasy fiction I've encountered, fundamentally inhuman. Normal sleep humanizes them in a way that, I think, cheapens their archetype.


However, I don't think all of your interpretations are logically consistent and flow rationally from their premises and lead inexorably to your conclusions. If you do, perhaps I misunderstand your premies. I also think that some of your arguments make distinctions with no difference.

Ironically, I've been feeling much the same way about your interpretations and arguments. Perhaps we're talking past one another somehow. I'm not sure how I can make my points more clear, or what precisely needs clarification.


For example, can humans live on the moon? I suppose a newborn who dies after 24 hours didn't really "live on earth", she merely "survived on earth". The fact is just because someone doesn't do something, doesn't mean they can't.

What I'm trying to get at with that example is the difference between connotation and denotation. I'm sure you already know this, but to clarify, "denotation" is the straight, literal definition of a word, while "connotation" involves implications and the subtleties of common usage. As this discussion ultimately seems to boil down to a semantic argument surrounding the phrase "do not," this distinction is important. The literal definition of the phrase allows for your interpretation, but contextually, it seems to me that the connotations of its usage point clearly toward my interpretation.


In your analogy of the Snark, you ask is it reasonable to conclude that snarks are capable of photosynthesis. No, but that doesn't mean that they can't. The difference is I know more about elves than I do about snarks. I have all the background information about elves that fleshes them out in my game. Your elves (and WOTC elves) may be different, but its a matter of interpretation, not rule-making. The rules are sufficiently vague to come to either conclusion.

I think that we have much the same background information about elves, from published WotC sources and from mythology and fantasy fiction. In your own gameworld, you may have elaborated on that information base in such a way that your elves have a certain set of requirements. While the literal denotation of the wording of the text does allow for your interpretation, this is the first time I've ever encountered the idea that there was textual ambiguity on this point.


To answer your question about creatures that don't need to sleep, but are not immune to sleep, I will remind you of our previous discussion of outsiders. They do not sleep, but are not immune. Your argument was that the fact that they can be compelled to sleep indicates they are able to sleep and the elves inability to sleep is justification for their immunity.

And, in fact, the SRD says, "Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep." [Emphasis mine.] They are physically capable of sleep, and so their brains can be forced into a sleep pattern.


I think that's generally a good argument, but the problem is that you also admit that the sleep effect is not normal sleep. It induces an abnormal sleep.

I think you're misunderstanding me; perhaps this is one of the points I can attempt to clarify. I think that the state experienced by the brain of the target of a Sleep spell is identical to normal sleep. The difference lies not in the state itself, but in how it is induced and maintained. The effect is identical; merely the cause is different.


Therefore, since no creature engages in sleep, like that of the Sleep spell, elves are no different than other creatures in that respect. If elves cannot be be compelled to fall into the unnatural sleep of the Sleep spell because they don't sleep that way; then every creature could rely on that defense.

Your conclusion does not follow from my premises. I do not believe that the Sleep spell creates a state that is in any way different from normal sleep. It is not "unnatural sleep"; it is natural sleep, unnaturally caused.


Further, as you increase the similarities between "trance" and normal sleep, it seems like the Sleep spell would magically adapt to make an elf enter a trance instead.

The similarity of the mechanical effects of sleep and trance does not imply or require any similarity in terms of what the bodies and minds of the humanoids in question are experiencing during these states. This doesn't follow.


The fact is the elves immunity to sleep magic is unexplained. We don't need an explanation for why they're immune than we do for why it works. It's magic.

Then "it's magic" that the Sleep spell works on creatures that sleep, but not on creatures that trance, no matter how similar those states look to the outside observer. See how unsatisfying an answer that is? Especially when there's a better explanation so readily available, or so it appears to me. Elves are immune to Sleep because sleeping isn't something their species can physically do, and thus they can't be forced to do it by magic. It's logical, it's tidy, it makes sense. Otherwise, why would the game designers stipulate that particular immunity specifically? Why not simply allow the elves' +2 to saves vs. Enchantment to cover it? The simplest and most logical explanation, to my mind, particularly in light of the text detailing elven trance, is that elves simply aren't physically designed to sleep. Problem solved, nice and neat, everything consistent.

[Kel_Arath]

jesus there was alot of stuff there and since im too lazy to read it all ill make it short and simple.
elves need the four hours of meditation/trance whatever. but the other four hours (for getting spells back) is simply rest, they can be on watch, just not activly searching around. spot and listen are things that just happen, if you have your eyes open, you get spot, if you arent deaf, you get listen. maybe they would take penalties to spot seeing as they are just sitting there thinking, not looking around, but thats how it works
peace

[Desaril]

@Kel Arath- thanks I appreciate that.

@ Jannex- We are now narrowing the debate. OK, I will retract my claim that your interpretation is based on trying to balance the game, it seems you were merely trying to explain what WOTC was doing when they wrote the rules. However, you assume that 1) they were trying to balance the game and 2) that your interpretation is the correct one. If 1) is incorrect, then my interpretation gains greater credence and if 2) is incorrect, the game is not as balanced as you perceive. Your argument relies on its conclusion.

Second, we have both admitted that the sleep induced by the SLEEP spell is different in its effect. To wit, it occurs immediately, regardless of what you were doing the second before. Second, it momentarily renders you less sensitive to tactile sensation (the fall to the ground will not wake the victim), but later simple shaking will suffice. Third, it renders you less sensitive to auditory stimulation (normal noise will not). That is not like any natural sleep I've ever experienced. Perhaps you start a post about what you consider natural sleeping experiences; I'm sure it would be hilarious.

I agree that not sleeping makes elves inhuman. It adds to their flavor. I just think that making them sleep eventually retains some of their "humanity" to make them familiar. On the contrary, making elves enter a trance that is functionally the same as sleep is not sufficiently inhuman. I know plenty of people who have gone for days on four hours of sleep. If that's what make elves different, it isn't worth a toot. What makes them cool is that for the course of most adventures, they won't have to sleep at all. That's inhuman enough to stand in awe of them, but the fact that they will eventually tire, gives them a sense of drama that ties them back to us, the human reader/player.

[Jannex]

@ Jannex- We are now narrowing the debate. OK, I will retract my claim that your interpretation is based on trying to balance the game, it seems you were merely trying to explain what WOTC was doing when they wrote the rules. However, you assume that 1) they were trying to balance the game and 2) that your interpretation is the correct one. If 1) is incorrect, then my interpretation gains greater credence and if 2) is incorrect, the game is not as balanced as you perceive. Your argument relies on its conclusion.

Rather, my argument attempts to do two things. First, it asserts a reasonable and logically-consistent possible explanation of the actions and intentions of the game designers, and second, it attempts to demonstrate that this is the most likely and most parsimonious explanation for the text we have.

Generally speaking, it seems obvious that game balance is a concern of the designers. While they may not always be staggeringly good at achieving it, evidence of their efforts is apparent throughout the published materials. It seems clear that the question of game balance is relevant to the current discussion, because if the alternative interpretation was correct, we would have a core player race with +0 LA that needed no nightly "downtime." This would create game-balance issues. Given that we know that the game designers generally care about game balance (at least in core materials), it seems unlikely that they would have allowed this. Therefore, the most likely conclusion is that the designers intended for the text to be interpreted such that elves, like all other core +0 LA player races, require some form of nightly "downtime."


Second, we have both admitted that the sleep induced by the SLEEP spell is different in its effect. To wit, it occurs immediately, regardless of what you were doing the second before. Second, it momentarily renders you less sensitive to tactile sensation (the fall to the ground will not wake the victim), but later simple shaking will suffice. Third, it renders you less sensitive to auditory stimulation (normal noise will not). That is not like any natural sleep I've ever experienced.

There is a significant and relevant difference between the STATE of sleep (the functions of the brain of the subject during the experience) and the CONDITIONS of sleep (the context, cause, and external influences surrounding it). The spell unnaturally induces and maintains a natural state.

To bring real-world biology into it, the text of the spell seems to suggests that it locks the subject's brain into Stage 4 sleep: a deep, dreamless slumber from which it is difficult to arouse the subject. Stage 4 sleep is a natural state. However, the Sleep spell also has a duration--specifically, 1 minute/level. This implies that the magic of the spell continually acts upon the subject, maintaining the effect magically and forcing the subject's brain to remain in Stage 4 sleep. The state itself is not unnatural, but it is being unnaturally inflicted upon the subject. This also accounts for the fact that the subject does not awaken as a result of falling to the ground; there's a continuous magical effect on him that takes some conscious effort to disrupt.

You say that being less sensitive to noise is not like any natural sleep you've ever experienced? You've never slept through your alarm clock? Lucky man. You must be a light sleeper. You will please notice, however, that the Sleep spell specifically indicates a very deep slumber.


Perhaps you start a post about what you consider natural sleeping experiences; I'm sure it would be hilarious.

Do you feel that sarcasm lends weight to your arguments?


I agree that not sleeping makes elves inhuman. It adds to their flavor. I just think that making them sleep eventually retains some of their "humanity" to make them familiar.

I disagree. I think it just makes them "sleep camels" and cheapens, if not wholly negates, that element of alienness. They have other attributes that lend them enough "humanity" to enable us to identify with them; their general anatomical layout, their modes of thought and communication, their need to eat, drink, and breathe as humans do, etc. The fact that they don't sleep makes them different, and counteracts all these similarities. Only needing to sleep occasionally wouldn't have that same effect, as far as I'm concerned.


On the contrary, making elves enter a trance that is functionally the same as sleep is not sufficiently inhuman. I know plenty of people who have gone for days on four hours of sleep. If that's what make elves different, it isn't worth a toot.

There's a difference between "functionally the same as sleep" (in other words, in terms of mechanics) and "apparently the same as sleep" (that is, in terms of flavor and visual presentation). This is an important difference, I think. Just because an elf doesn't gain any mechanical gameplay advantages from meditating instead of sleeping (aside from only needing to do it for half as long--always, not just for "days"), doesn't mean that this difference doesn't reinforce the flavor of the race. Imagine you, a human adventurer, are traveling with an elf. You wake up for your watch, halfway through the night, and glance over at the elf. Unlike all your other traveling companions, who are sprawled out in their bedrolls, snoring away, the elf is sitting cross-legged on a straw mat, his back ramrod-straight. His hands are in an attitude of meditation or prayer, and his eyes are open, fixed, unseeing--his mind is clearly elsewhere. It's strange. It's inhuman. It's, perhaps, a little creepy. That's elven trance--fundamentally different, but in terms of flavor, not mechanics. That was the purpose, right? You talked about wanting the game to support the flavor of the elven archetype found in fantasy stories. This does it.


What makes them cool is that for the course of most adventures, they won't have to sleep at all. That's inhuman enough to stand in awe of them, but the fact that they will eventually tire, gives them a sense of drama that ties them back to us, the human reader/player.

The point isn't to be "cool" or "uber" or "awesome." The point is to be different, to be uniquely elven, to have a specific flavor. As you said, you've know people who can last for days at a time with little or no sleep. That isn't inhuman. Inhuman is filling a similar need via a completely different process--for instance, Borg regeneration. That's inhuman.

Incidentally, the text of the "Group Trance" teamwork benefit on page 161 of the PHBII suggests rather directly that elves are not aware and cannot stand watch while they are meditating.

[Desaril]

I think sarcasm adds humor to my arguments! But I bet any stories you have to offer would be funnier than anything I can write.

I am not convinced by your LA argument. I agree that in many circumstances that not sleeping could be a great advantage, but I don't think by itself it would amount to a level adjustment. You are absolutely right that a continually aware elf makes a great watchman. So what! An enemy can still try to sneak up on her.

More importantly, under your interpretation each night a party will need to ensure that they coordinate watches to ensure that everyone gets enough sleep and still stands a watch, (or just sleep unguarded). Inevitably they do and the whole party gets their necessary sleep and there's always a guard. Whether the elf is always awake and aware or not, doesn't make a whit of difference, because there will be a guard. On a few occasions e.g. when the party is small, when time is really important and a few hours will swing the result of an encounter) the ever-aware elf becomes a significant advantage. But even then it's not worth a level adjustment.

I'll post a quote of your comment from 04/01/07: The difference lies not in the state itself, but in how it is induced and maintained. The effect is identical; merely the cause is different. You stated that the effect was identical, but it is not identical to normal sleep. I think your analysis of immediately jumping to stage 4 sleep is compelling, but my point is that if you can magically compel a human to immediately to enter stage 4 sleep, you could compel an elf to do the same thing.

Your argument is that elves cannot sleep. One of your premises is that they are immune to SLEEP. You explain that they are immune to SLEEP becuase they can't be compelled to sleep because they cannot sleep. That's circular logic. Further, under your view, elves are immune to SLEEP because they cannot be compelled to do the impossible. However, you accept that other humanoids can be compelled to do the impossible- immediately enter stage 4 sleep even in the middle of strenuous activity. Remember, one of our agreed facts is that SLEEP does not render the victim unconscious (becuase then it might work on elves, too). The victim is compelled to sleep via mental domination, not alteration of their neurochemistry or alteration of their physiology in any way. They are "convinced" to sleep.

It's OK if you don't appreciate the fine balance I've acheived between respecting the genre (where elves are always awake and alert) and providing some outside boundaries on elven physiology. I agree that there is no basis in the rules for making elves ever sleep. I add that because it's a conclusion I draw from my knowledge about elves. If I had to choose, I'd choose that elves never sleep but are always alert rather than they never sleep, but are not alert during meditation.

I agree that some things are incorporated just for flavor. However, nothing in the rules prohibits my non-elf from sleeping just like you described (consider Gandalf in LOTR: ROTK when Pippen steals the Palanitr). Sleep is not functionally described in the game, we really don't know how it "works" anymore than we know how meditation/trance does. Regardless, you've still not responded to the fact that in the literature, whenever someone wakes up during the night, the elf is not in a trance with a distant, far-off, unaware look. The elf is never caught napping!

Actually, the point is to be cool. We don't typically play heroic fantasy roleplaying games to address cultural differences and the interaction of "us" vis a vis "them". We want to create and control heroes. The stars of fantasty literature and movies. They are supposed to be powerful, exciting, and with abilities beyond normal people. That's why every PC class and race has some special ability that makes them unique and useful from the others. It gives them a niche where they shine. It makes them cool.

Inhuman means not (typically) human. Green skin in inhuman. Pink eyes are inhuman. Webbed feet are inhuman. It does not mean a completely different process. Even the presence of a feature (such as webbed feet) among the human population, does not make that feature is not inhuman. Sorry for the double negative, but diction required it, although syntax denounces it.

As to group trance, I've never read it, so I can't authoritatively argue about it. However, I would offer that many people have adopted what I would call your erroneous and false position, so I'm not surprised that subsequent information accepts that as true. Christopher Columbus called the natives he found in the New World "Indians" because he thought he was in India. It would not be logically correct to later say, "He must have been in India, because we call the people Indians!"