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Talkan
2014-11-02, 03:53 PM
I have an upcoming (homebrew) Adventure based mostly on sea travel, trading, and pirate raids, and I have one player who is playing an Orc Cad (who has a Strength of 22). I really like the idea of this archetype, especially for this type of Adventure, so I said go for it. Later, he revealed that he wanted to rip people's arms off.

I'm not the type of GM to say "No way! That's crazy!", but it wasn't really within the rules, so I decided to try and figure something out on my own. I had only ever seen this type thing be dealt with as a DC 25 Str Check, which I didn't quite agree with. Sure, a person with a Strength of 20 would have to roll a 20 to succeed (unless they were a Barbarian), but I though it should involve skill as well. So, I decided to sit down and write up a little thing for the rules on it. At first it was going to require a successful Grapple check, then I just decided to make it a Combat Maneuver of its own!


In place of a Melee Attack, you may attempt a Rend Asunder Combat Maneuver. This is different from Sunder because you are not attacking with a weapon, you are grabbing someone and trying to rip or break something in or off of their body.
You now must be Grappling to perform this Maneuver. You must have at least 1 hand free to attempt a Rend Asunder Combat Maneuver, and if you only use 1 hand, you take a -2 to your roll. If your attack is successful, you manage to break or tear some , possibly causing bleeding damage. If you exceed their CMD by certain amounts, exciting stuff happens! If you don't have the Improved Rend Asunder Feat, your grappled opponent can attempt to break free from the grapple, preventing your attempt in successful, in addition to provoking an Attack of Opportunity from adjacent opponents.

Important note: You don't have to rip people's arms off with this, you can use it just to break bones or just hurt them. Also, a natural 20 does not mean you automatically rip off a limb. You still need to meet the prerequisite damage or DC. It does mean that you automatically deal damage and deal more than normal.



First, you have to succeed on a Grapple check. Then, assuming you have control of the grapple, you may then (as part of the same Action), attempt a Rend Asunder Maneuver.
If you meet or exceed their CMD, you deal 1d4 + your Strength Modifier points of damage to them. If you roll a natural 20, you confirm it like a critical, and upon successful confirmation you add double your Strength Modifier instead. For every 5 points by which you exceed their CMD, you deal 1 point of Bleed Damage.
If you deal a certain amount of damage or exceed their CMD by a certain amount, you may tear their body part from them.



Body Part
Damage Required
CMD Required
Resultant Bleed


Hand
10
CMD+10
2


Arm (below Elbow)
15
CMD+15
3


Arm (below Shoulder)
20
CMD+20
4


Foot
15
CMD+15
3


Leg (below Knee)
20
CMD+20
4


Leg (below Hip)
25
CMD+25
5


Head
30
CMD+30
6 (Death)


Torso
35
CMD+35
7 (Death)



Size Modifiers: These are on top of the normal Combat Maneuver size Modifiers.
Fine: -4
Diminutive: -3
Tiny: -2
Small: -1
Medium: 0
Large: +1
Huge: +2
Gargantuan: +3
Colossal: +4

I realize this has some pretty enormous damage requirements and the CMD is pretty big, especially for using one roll, and I might allow the PCs to use one or two rolls in a row; break the bone, then tear it off, etc. I like how it looks, though. I think it makes it very much a thing that Combat-based classes will use, but that others can use to some extent. It also makes it more difficult for enemies to use against PCs. If you are facing something with a Strength of 30 and it just needs to roll a 10 to rip you to pieces, that's a little obnoxious. Barbarians will excel at it, but I think that comes with the territory. What's scarier than a madman, foaming at the mouth, who just ripped your commander's head off?

However, a lot of the Higher DCs will still require ridiculously high rolls, which I think they should. Not just everyone should be able to rip someone's hand off, let alone their head.



I figured I should throw in some Feats to make it work like a real Combat Maneuver.

Improved Rend Asunder (Combat)
Requirements: Improved Unarmed Strike, Str 13, Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: You no longer provoke Attacks of Opportunity when attempting to Rend Asunder, gain a +2 to your CMB when performing a Rend Asunder Maneuver, and a +2 to CMD to avoid being Rent Asunder. Your grappled opponent still gains a free attempt to break out of your grapple, however.

Greater Rend Asunder (Combat)
Requirements: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Rend Asunder, Str 13, Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefit: You gain an additional +2 to Rend Asunder Maneuvers and your grappled opponent no longer gains a free attempt to break out of your grapple.

Quick Rend Asunder (Combat)
Requirements: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Rend Asunder, Str 13, Base Attack Bonus +6
Benefit: You may make a Rend Asunder Combat Maneuver in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose to use the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the check.


What do you guys think? Would this work as I intend it? All advice and comments are welcome!

All these will need to be playtested for balance and such.

**EDIT**
Added in Size Modifiers. They are on top of the standard size modifiers.

**DOUBLE EDIT**
Added in a Pre-requisite Grappling, which will make it more complicated and longer, but will make people focus a little more. Also changed some of the feats up and what they do.

Aergoth
2014-11-02, 05:40 PM
One note: Size categories. It's going to be a hell of a lot easier to rip the tiny little twig arm off of a goblin or small sized fairy than it is to remove the equivalent body part from say, an ogre.

Admiral Squish
2014-11-02, 05:57 PM
I feel like you should need to be grappling to do this.

Talkan
2014-11-03, 12:40 AM
One note: Size categories. It's going to be a hell of a lot easier to rip the tiny little twig arm off of a goblin or small sized fairy than it is to remove the equivalent body part from say, an ogre.

Awesome! This is exactly what I was looking for! :smallbiggrin:
I'll put some in right now. Would this work? A cumulative +1 for each size smaller the target is than you and a cumulative -1 for each size larger the target is than you.


I feel like you should need to be grappling to do this.

I somewhat disagree with this. I have always felt that Grappling is wrestling (which is completely subjective), and I don't think you need to be wrestling to rip and tear muscles. And this doesn't need to be breaking bones, that was really just fluff. I even made the rules for tearing at the joints.

I do see your point, and may (depending on how things turn out) require Grappling for the head and torso, maybe even the legs, but for the most part I feel like it's a needless extra turn for it that will slow down combat.

However, I am not going to try and force my opinion on you, especially because you have a valid point. If you would like to use this and require Grappling, I would really like to hear how it works, because I'm probably not going to be able to see how this works for a couple of months, and if Grappling first is a better balance, I would love to know! :smallsmile:

Hanuman
2014-11-03, 07:03 PM
Here's how evolutionist does it:

Mutilate
Prerequisite: Bite natural weapon, mutator level 7.
Ability Score: Strength
Benefit: The evolutionistís bite causes grievous wounds and can even tear off limbs from his target. As a swift action, after successfully delivering a bite attack to his target or whenever he scores a critical hit with a bite attack (without need for a swift action), the evolutionist can trash and rend at his opponentís flesh. The evolutionistís target must succeed on a fortitude save or the evolutionist damages one of his arms or legs (of the evolutionistís choice) to the point of inutility. An inutilized arm cannot be used to wield a weapon, shield or material components, nor can it be used for anything else, an inutilized leg halves the targetís movement speed, prevents him from running or charging and requires a DC 5 balance check each round (and whenever the victim suffers an attack) to keep standing, a creature with both legs inutilized cannot move except by crawling up to 5 feet as a standard action. Furthermore, even if the victim succeeds its save, the wound bleeds profusely, dealing 1 point of damage on each round, the bleed damage from multiple wounds stacks.
Inutilized arms and legs can be restored with a Regeneration spell and similar effects and abilities. The bleeding caused by this ability can be stopped by any healing spell.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the bleed damage from the wound increases by 1 per round. This ability can be taken once per four mutator levels.

Could be implemented as a sub-mechanic of grappling, but this is essentially a called shot. You say "don't need to be wrestling" to do this, but that's essential to be able to pull someone apart, unless that's not what's happening, which leads me to believe that the mechanic above is what you mean. You are "rending" something ruining it, not actually separating it and not actually touching it, you could do this with a sword, or an explosive arrow, really anything that has an attack roll.

From this I think it's just a critical hit, you could put in a called shot mechanic off CMB sure, but I'd drop most of the "rend" flavor if it's intended to be universal.

Talkan
2014-11-04, 11:32 PM
I thought you were talking about the Summoner Archetype when I first read this, but I'm convinced you aren't... I don't actually know about anything with mutator levels, so I'm not sure how to fully utilize that comparison.

That being said:



Could be implemented as a sub-mechanic of grappling, but this is essentially a called shot. You say "don't need to be wrestling" to do this, but that's essential to be able to pull someone apart, unless that's not what's happening, which leads me to believe that the mechanic above is what you mean. You are "rending" something ruining it, not actually separating it and not actually touching it, you could do this with a sword, or an explosive arrow, really anything that has an attack roll.

From this I think it's just a critical hit, you could put in a called shot mechanic off CMB sure, but I'd drop most of the "rend" flavor if it's intended to be universal.

I think you have the right idea, I just didn't agree with grappling. I'm not so sure now...

Here's a sample use of it as is:

This adventure starts at level 6, so we'll start from there

Lets assume there's a level 6 Orc Fighter with both the Improved and Greater Feats going up against another level 6 Orc Fighter without the feats. Let's assume a Str of 20 and a Dex of 14 for both.

The first Orc has a CMB of +11 (+15 for Rend Assunder).
The second Orc has the same base CMB, and a CMD of 23.

On a roll of 8 or higher, the first Orc will deal 1d4+4 damage. On a roll of 20, double that, potentially enough damage, but the same roll of 20 will have a CM result of 35, which is 12 higher than the CMD, meaning he has the option to pull his hand off. Resulting in 2 bleed until he receives magical healing or some extreme first aid. This isn't turning out like I had hoped...:smalleek:


I was going to include a second sample, but realized the monster I had chose (Phase Spider) doesn't have hands, which was the only thing the sample Orc could have affected. So I do need to put some of that in the rules... I also realized the power this has...

I actually had a whole rant about how fun was the biggest point, then I started up the first sample, and I realized it is actually a lot more powerful than I anticipated at lower levels. Grappling would probably definitely be a good idea. Especially since most of the time they won't be up against just one enemy that's got a CR that close to their level.

Thanks to Hanuman and Admiral Squish for pointing me in the right direction! And for listening to me think while I figured it out on my own...:smallredface:

gr8artist
2014-11-05, 12:20 AM
I think it would be interesting to approach this from a sundering point of view. We can find the hardness/HP of bone pretty easily. I'd suggest giving the damaged limb (and any attacks made with it) the broken condition, escalating to destroyed/unusable when enough damage has been dealt. Strength damage is another option, or damage based on the creature's hit dice.

Hanuman
2014-11-08, 11:11 PM
No worries, I suggest reading up on teramach, evolutionist, ozodrin, ect.

CMB/CMD specifically runs into some complications I've found, keeping the mechanics balanced, and that CMD doesn't have many ways to improve it, things get complicated. For things like divergent injury systems that focus away from hitpoint damage it's really good to keep things simple.

I'd say that rending someone's flesh should be a fortitude save, so what we are actually talking about is a spell effect or maneuver or class feature, it should have a specific effect (not one set by a table) and even varied effect should be limited to just a few options such as minor, major and critical.

Minor could be attributed to the feat http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/snatch-trophy--2666/|
This could be -2 to perception.

Pay close attention to the vagueness, this is intentional. The example says finger or ear, which gives a mind in inertia a small push, but doesn't put the rails down.

Because we are approaching this like a debuff, major could be a step up, to a state similar to Shaken.

Critical could apply any condition really, even death, you just balance it with conditions and leave the easy/essential things to have rules and the harder and more trivial things intentionally vague.