Wizards: Competent swordplay with minimal effort?

[tadkins]

I've noticed that a lot of Wizard characters in fantasy books/movies/video games/etc tend to also be skilled swordsmen. Most notably Gandalf; he tends to use his sword more than he uses any kind of magic. This got me to thinking on the subject. A story might be pretty boring if a wizard just used magic for every little thing, right? Good swordplay can be pretty entertaining.

What I'm wondering is how I can pull that off with minimal effort for a wizard character, for mostly theatrics. Just something cool to do in between spellcasts, if an enemy closes in. Don't want to dedicate a whole build to it or anything. Nothing like being a Duskblade/Magus, or taking a fighting based PrC like Abjurant Champion. Maybe something like taking a single feat, assigning a few points to Strength, or casting a spell or two that'd turn a wizard into someone who won't look foolish swinging a sword.

Any thoughts?

[Sir Chuckles]

Slap the Skilled enchantment onto your favorite stabby bit and you're good to go.
Makes you act as though you have 3/4ths BaB and proficiency with the weapon for a +2 cost.

[malonkey1]

I've noticed that a lot of Wizard characters in fantasy books/movies/video games/etc tend to also be skilled swordsmen. Most notably Gandalf; he tends to use his sword more than he uses any kind of magic. This got me to thinking on the subject. A story might be pretty boring if a wizard just used magic for every little thing, right? Good swordplay can be pretty entertaining.

What I'm wondering is how I can pull that off with minimal effort for a wizard character, for mostly theatrics. Just something cool to do in between spellcasts, if an enemy closes in. Don't want to dedicate a whole build to it or anything. Nothing like being a Duskblade/Magus, or taking a fighting based PrC like Abjurant Champion. Maybe something like taking a single feat, assigning a few points to Strength, or casting a spell or two that'd turn a wizard into someone who won't look foolish swinging a sword.

Any thoughts?

For starters, elves are racially proficient with the Longsword. If you have true strike (especially quickened!) prepared, you can make some pretty accurate shots, not to mention having access to bull's strength, and numerous other handy spells. Mage armor and shield are two obvious spells for armor stand-ins, as that's a +8 ac bonus right there. Finally, at mid-levels, you have tenser's transformation, which does the following:


You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

[Faily]

At the first levels, you also have access to Master's Touch (Spell Compendium) which allows you to be proficient with any weapon touched for the duration of the spell.

[tadkins]

Just the kind of things I was looking for. Thanks all. :)

[Jormengand]

If you went sorcerer instead, you could take the Battle Sorcerer and Animal Companion alternate class features. You now have a medium base attack bonus and a pet that can help you fight.

[Aegis013]

snip... Finally, at mid-levels, you have tenser's transformation, which does the following:

Often considered a trap option, considering it also does this:

You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.

Spellcasting isn't something you want to be without, usually.

Also takes a potion of Bull's Strength as its material component.

[Flickerdart]

Fist of Stone is a fantastic low-level spell for wizards who want to mix it up in melee - +6 Strength and a slam attack for a minute is exactly what the doctor ordered. Consider also the various "conjure a magic sword" spells such as Bade of Pain and Fear, Thunderlance, or Flame Whips.

[RPGaddict28]

Often considered a trap option, considering it also does this:


Spellcasting isn't something you want to be without, usually.

Also takes a potion of Bull's Strength as its material component.

The better spell would be Bite of the Weretiger, its the same level, but it grants +12 enhancement bonus to Strength, a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +6 enhancement bonus to Constitution, a +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor, two claws and a bite, and Blind-Fight and Power Attack. All without a costly material component.

[defiantdan]

Competent Sword play wizard. Main ingredients: Wizard5/Incantatrix 3/spellcaster X. Polymorph into a war troll. Persist Wraithstrike. Greater Mighty wallop a minotaur Greathammer. Add seasoning for flavour: Blink, greater mage armor, great mirror image, fly, bite of the x. UMD divine power wand.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

RE: Incantatrix solves everything
Alternatively (to UMDing) you can get Arcane Disciple for the Hero domain and persist Divine Power natively. Though at this point we're moving beyond skilled swordsman and into melee monstrosity.

[Fouredged Sword]

I also am sorely tempted to dip Ruathar on any wizard for somewhere levels 6-8 unless otherwise occupied with a PRC. A one level dip grants longsword (or rapier) proficiency without losing any spellcasting. There are litterally no prereqs other than casting 3rd level spells, so you basically replace a wizard dead level with longsword proficiency as a class feature. It even comes with a free +1 longsword!

In my mind, this is the path I would put a theoretical Gandalf build on. Sword in one hand, staff in the other... Mage armor, shield. Possibly going for abjurant champion.

The build goes something like Wizard 6 / Ruathar 3 / abjurant champion 5. No lost spellcasting,

[defiantdan]

RE: Incantatrix solves everything
Alternatively (to UMDing) you can get Arcane Disciple for the Hero domain and persist Divine Power natively. Though at this point we're moving beyond skilled swordsman and into melee monstrosity.

Sadly that can get your wizard a bit mad. I like to throw FMI (faerie mysteries initiate) on my wizard and just boost my int through the roof. I currently have a wizard running around with the same hp as the barbarian in our group. 100hp at level 9 and he has 102hp.

[Flickerdart]

Sadly that can get your wizard a bit mad. I like to throw FMI (faerie mysteries initiate) on my wizard and just boost my int through the roof. I currently have a wizard running around with the same hp as the barbarian in our group. 100hp at level 9 and he has 102hp.
Constitution is a very useful stat to boost even when you have that - your Fortitude saves are rubbish, and Concentration is a super important skill. How are you supposed to vanquish your enemies while sloshed on dragon whiskey if you get your resilience from making out with pansies?

[KingSmitty]

grab a great axe, use the spell whirling blade, line up opponents and attack

[Vaz]

Competent Sword play wizard. Main ingredients: Wizard5/Incantatrix 3/spellcaster X. Polymorph into a war troll. Persist Wraithstrike. Greater Mighty wallop a minotaur Greathammer. Add seasoning for flavour: Blink, greater mage armor, great mirror image, fly, bite of the x. UMD divine power wand.

Competent =/= outclassing Every other equal levelled primary melee user.

If you want to up an arms race like that, you can prepare to face similar levels of player optimization from enemy casters. If you can obliterate any other opponent withput challenge, you'll find yourself facing opponents that you can't just slap.

[Dalebert]

In Pathfinder, play a divination specialist and you get the ability to make an extra roll for success INT bonus plus 3 times a day that can be used for combat. That's a substantial increase in your chance of hitting. Combine that with playing an elf for the proficiency, a magic weapon, maybe the use of buffs now and then, and you'd be kind of decent.

[Fax Celestis]

BAB is so ridiculously overrated it's not funny. You don't need full BAB to hit things in melee reliably, especially when you have a bag of tricks like the wizard does. True strike, sure strike, wraithstrike, brilliant blade, and similar can ensure your attacks connect. In addition, spells like scimitar of sand, arcane maul, fist of stone, cutting hand, and thunderlance can make it so you don't need to buy weaponry, and ones like bladeweave, whirling blade and arrow of bone give you special effects on striking. That's not even including supporting yourself with spells like legion of sentinels, mystic shield, cloud of knives, stoneskin, or steeldance.

[Prime32]

I've noticed that a lot of Wizard characters in fantasy books/movies/video games/etc tend to also be skilled swordsmen. Most notably Gandalf; he tends to use his sword more than he uses any kind of magic.Remember when Gandalf took one look at the One Ring and cast identify, followed by mind blank, followed by greater teleport, thereby ending the plot of the trilogy in 18 seconds? No?

Nothing resembling the D&D wizard class exists in Lord of the Rings, and Gandalf does not have levels in it. In D&D when a character has minor magical abilities, fights mostly with a sword, specialises in fighting evil creatures, can call an exceptional mount to his side and makes people feel braver by his presence, that's called a paladin. A lot of his flashier powers came from his Ring of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#elementalCommand) anyway.

[tadkins]

Remember when Gandalf took one look at the One Ring and cast identify, followed by mind blank, followed by greater teleport, thereby ending the plot of the trilogy in 18 seconds? No?



That would have been quicker, efficient, and far more painless though!

[Fouredged Sword]

Remember when Gandalf took one look at the One Ring and cast identify, followed by mind blank, followed by greater teleport, thereby ending the plot of the trilogy in 18 seconds? No?


Yeah, well LoR is an E6 world, and Gandalf is a outsider with natural wizard casting.

[Tohsaka Rin]

It's Lord of the Rings.

Gandalf is a Wizard, because he says he's a wizard.

Frankly, I'd peg him as an Outsider with Searing Light, Daylight, Lightning once per day, and Glamdrang is a spell-storing weapon.

Unless I've missed anything (I haven't read the books or seen the movies in years) that should cover most of what he does, aside from his mount/animal companion.

[Necroticplague]

How about the part where he cast two druid spells (Fire Seeds and SNA 4) one right after the other?

[Bloody Peasant!]

It's Lord of the Rings.

Gandalf is a Wizard, because he says he's a wizard.

Frankly, I'd peg him as an Outsider with Searing Light, Daylight, Lightning once per day, and Glamdrang is a spell-storing weapon.

Unless I've missed anything (I haven't read the books or seen the movies in years) that should cover most of what he does, aside from his mount/animal companion.

I'd give him prestidigitation at will as well.

[Darkweave31]

Remember when Gandalf took one look at the One Ring and cast identify, followed by mind blank, followed by greater teleport, thereby ending the plot of the trilogy in 18 seconds? No?


Why didn't he already have mind blank up as one of his daily buffs?

[defiantdan]

Constitution is a very useful stat to boost even when you have that - your Fortitude saves are rubbish, and Concentration is a super important skill. How are you supposed to vanquish your enemies while sloshed on dragon whiskey if you get your resilience from making out with pansies?

Well you can get Superior Resistance Permanancied, Weild an insanely buffed shuriken for 4k, don't be targetable, become a necropolitan, head band of concious effort, Ring of Diamond mind (reflex). There are many ways to make a save. Persist loresong on your concentration.

[defiantdan]

Competent =/= outclassing Every other equal levelled primary melee user.

If you want to up an arms race like that, you can prepare to face similar levels of player optimization from enemy casters. If you can obliterate any other opponent withput challenge, you'll find yourself facing opponents that you can't just slap.

That's hardly an optimization of what a wizard should be doing. It's just one thing he could do that day. Hitpoint melee damage is not how a wizard should end an encounter.

[Tohsaka Rin]

http://gallery.avlis.org/d/4989-7/multiclassing.jpg


So basically, a handful of cherry-picked spells, available about two times a day, and prestidigitation, because smoke boats aren't going to fly through rings themselves.

Now I'm wondering what spell he would've used to smite the bridge of Khazad-dûm. I'm pretty sure he'd cast Shield on himself when facing the Balrog, too.

EDIT: Curses, wouldn't having a good staff and a very high UMD check be enough for most of this? The staff for make magic is go thing seems to be a big deal in LotRs.

[AnonymousPepper]

I think my experience with artificers has tainted me a bit, but I'm a fan of brute-forcing the issue thusly:

1. Acquire a continuous or a 1/day persistent (I forget which is cheaper) wondrous item of Master's Touch.
2. Acquire a UMD skill booster of sufficient power.
3. Acquire an x/day wondrous item of extended Divine Power, where x is the number of fights you're going to have to handle in one day, balanced against how much you're willing to pay.

[Fax Celestis]

Now I'm wondering what spell he would've used to smite the bridge of Khazad-dûm.

Shatterfloor seems like it'd suffice. Sor/Wiz 3. Easy enough to put on a wand or staff.


You create a loud, thrumming vibration that builds to a painful crescendo before fading.

Creatures and objects in the area take 1d4 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d4), and can make a Will saving throw for half damage.

If the floor of the area is made of stone, wood, ice, or material any softer than those, the floor is pulverized to a depth of 6 inches, resulting in an area of soft dust, wood fragments, or loose crushed ice, as appropriate.
Any creature moving across this surface is reduced to half speed.

[Flickerdart]

Well you can get Superior Resistance Permanancied, Weild an insanely buffed shuriken for 4k, don't be targetable, become a necropolitan, head band of concious effort, Ring of Diamond mind (reflex). There are many ways to make a save. Persist loresong on your concentration.
All of which are resources you could be expending on useful things if you had only taken up jogging in your youth :smallamused:

[Knaight]

How about the part where he cast two druid spells (Fire Seeds and SNA 4) one right after the other?

Toss them on the chassis, though SNA 4 is a pretty bad model for what Gandalf did - it seems a bit too broad (though D&D is a bad enough system for modeling LotR specifically that the concession might need to be made).

[PraxisVetli]

I think the minimal effort would be Eldritch Knight from the dmg, wouldn't it?

[Necroticplague]

Toss them on the chassis, though SNA 4 is a pretty bad model for what Gandalf did - it seems a bit too broad (though D&D is a bad enough system for modeling LotR specifically that the concession might need to be made).

Well, we know he summoned a few giant eagles, no reason to think thats the only thing he could summon.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Well, we know he summoned a few giant eagles, no reason to think thats the only thing he could summon.

What, you mean the part where he sent a moth with a message to the Eagles in the first movie?

That's Animal Messenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalMessenger.htm).

[Xerlith]

So... Impressing and encouraging people. Diverse magical abilities. Use of magic devices. Competence in combat.

By the gods, Gandalf was a Bard!

[Twilightwyrm]

So... Impressing and encouraging people. Diverse magical abilities. Use of magic devices. Competence in combat.

By the gods, Gandalf was a Bard!

Would also explain his seemingly endless knowledge, talent for physical deceptions, talent for negotiation and ability to inspire large number of people with his words. The only part that isn't quite making sense is the whole magical shields and lighting thing, but with a custom druidy domain and Arcane Disciple that would certainly not be out of his reach.

[Xerlith]

Would also explain his seemingly endless knowledge, talent for physical deceptions, talent for negotiation and ability to inspire large number of people with his words. The only part that isn't quite making sense is the whole magical shields and lighting thing, but with a custom druidy domain and Arcane Disciple that would certainly not be out of his reach.


Now that's even simpler. Divine Bard grants "Shields", namely Protection from Evil (fluff it as you may), and Silent Image, Daylight, and similar flashy spells are on the Bard spell list.
Remember, Gandalf had two powerful magic items on himself - His staff (Item Familiar or something similar) and Narya (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#elementalCommand).

Basically, a Lesser (?) Aasimar Divine Bard 8 could probably do most of the things we saw Gandalf do and we'd not see any difference from outside.
Ring of Elemental Command takes care of the fire stuff, Aasimar racial spell-likes work almost as well, too. His staff is his Ancestral Relic (he UMDs it as a Runestaff, most probably), Glamdring is just a piece of loot he found.
Animal Cohort and there we have our Shadowfax.
I think this does all we want it to do.

EDIT: Maybe the Ring of Elemental Command isn't the best way of portraying Narya. I mean - it's explicitly stated that it enhanced courage in hearts of people...
Custom Ring of Elemental Command with Badge of Valor built-in? :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Competent =/= outclassing Every other equal levelled primary melee user.Only the T3s and above. The others aren't exactly terribly competent.