DM's View on Favored Enemy (Archanist)

[Kanthalion]

One of my players wants to take a level of ranger with the arcane hunter variation. But he's wanting to know if it would, for example, work against dragons since they can cast spells like a sorcerer. I dunno, that sounds kinda over powered...

[eggynack]

Looks like it works fine on dragons. The ability doesn't care about how the spells are cast, as long as the spells are being cast. As for it being overpowered, almost certainly not. Favored enemy wouldn't be game warping if it just applied to all creatures universally, so it's certainly not game warping applied to a larger than normal population segment. Still, balance is relative, so the power level here could be a bit excessive in a particularly low optimization party.

[Extra Anchovies]

Benefit: At 1st level, you gain favored enemy (arcanists). This feature works just like the favored enemy ability (PH 47). The bonuses granted apply to any character capable of casting arcane spells or using invocations (but not other spell-like abilities).
Dragons cast spells, so it works. And yes, FE (Arcanists) is (barring campaign-specific focuses on particular creatures types) the most generally useful favored enemy, but it's not like that ability is all that powerful to begin with.

[Namfuak]

You are correct that it is significantly more applicable than, say, FE:Humanoids. If the power level of the game is such that he is only taking regular ranger levels, it may be that it boosts his power quite a bit, but doing extra damage to most enemies probably won't make him outshine others unless all of them are sword and board fighters expecting to compete with him in damage. As a last point, I agree with eggynack that FE would not be particularly overpowered even it applied to every enemy, at least until you start adding rider effects like Swift Hunter.

[Urpriest]

Note that not all Dragons can cast spells. By the time you're fighting Dragons that can, you'll maybe fight a couple over the course of an entire campaign, given their legendary status. So it's not really something to worry about.

[Kanthalion]

So essentially, the Enemy is more the spell than the character? In that case, except for situations where it is obvious that the enemy is a caster (like a sufficiently old dragon) would he have to wait till he sees the enemy cast a spell or learn it is a caster some other way to gain the effect?

And it sounds like the consensus is that although it might be the most munchkiny FE, it isn't broad enough to break the game.

Oh, and Urpriest, I'm running Red Hand of Doom, so yeah... Dragons might be a bit more common. But even then, dragons was more just an example of a non humanoid creature that can cast spells.

[eggynack]

So essentially, the Enemy is more the spell than the character?
Yes, or at least, it's rooted in the magic. The opponent doesn't have to cast spells to be an arcanist.

In that case, except for situations where it is obvious that the enemy is a caster (like a sufficiently old dragon) would he have to wait till he sees the enemy cast a spell or learn it is a caster some other way to gain the effect?

No. Favored enemy just requires that the enemy be a thing, and not that the ranger knows they are that thing. It's a weird fact about the ability, and applies in similarly weird fashion to basic favored enemy.


And it sounds like the consensus is that although it might be the most munchkiny FE, it isn't broad enough to break the game.
Pretty much. It's not even necessarily a matter of breadth, though that can often be a factor. It's more rooted in the fact that arcanists are generally the most dangerous enemies in the game, so advantages against them are good.

[Big Fau]

You've got to keep in mind that Favored Enemy is a small bonus, and that it is restricted to an enemy widely regarded as the most dangerous foe to contend with; Anything less than a full caster will have an extraordinarily hard time with a properly stated full caster, especially an arcane one.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I dunno, that sounds kinda over powered...

My group allows Rangers to pick 'everything' for their favored enemy, and add +2 to that one every time they get the class feature again. It's not overpowered, it makes Ranger a somewhat worthwhile class to stick with.

Allowing Arcane Hunter to apply to everything that exists which can cast arcane spells via spell slots or use invocations is not going to be anything close to enough power for him to unbalance the game. Ranger is a weak class, and alternate class features that make it better are good. What else is he going to pick as a 1st level favored enemy that will remain viable in the mid to high levels? Goblins and Orcs certainly won't, and anything else won't see enough use in the earlier levels to feel like it was worth taking except maybe Undead if the encounters are extremely Undead-heavy.

[Milodiah]

I had a dyslexic moment, and interpreted this thread as asking whether a ranger could take anarchists as a favored enemy.

The answer to the question you didn't ask is "The Urban Ranger variant class in Unearthed Arcana has provisions for taking on organizations as favored enemies rather than species/races, but this raises the philosophical question of whether anarchists can in fact be considered an organization."


On to the question you did ask.

I'm fairly certain dragon casting is actual magic, rather than spell-like ability. Therefore there isn't much difference between dragon casters and humanoid ones, other than the weight difference of several tons, flight capabilities, and tendency to horribly murder everyone around them with all sorts of elemental annihilation they're naturally plumbed to spray from their faces.

All in all, I think giving him the +2 against the abovementioned magic-slinging flying main battle tanks that can yell fire is certainly reasonable.

[BrokenChord]

other than the weight difference of several tons, flight capabilities, and tendency to horribly murder everyone around them with all sorts of elemental annihilation they're naturally plumbed to spray from their faces.

All in all, I think giving him the +2 against the abovementioned magic-slinging flying main battle tanks that can yell fire is certainly reasonable.

You know, maybe I've just been on this board for too long, but without my sense of irony I think I would've been entirely unable to tell when you were referring to dragons and when you were referring to human casters in each of those cases except for "weight difference of several tons."

[Milodiah]

You know, maybe I've just been on this board for too long, but without my sense of irony I think I would've been entirely unable to tell when you were referring to dragons and when you were referring to human casters in each of those cases except for "weight difference of several tons."

He who fights monsters, etc.

[Kanthalion]

I'm fairly certain dragon casting is actual magic, rather than spell-like ability. Therefore there isn't much difference between dragon casters and humanoid ones, other than the weight difference of several tons, flight capabilities, and tendency to horribly murder everyone around them with all sorts of elemental annihilation they're naturally plumbed to spray from their faces.

All in all, I think giving him the +2 against the abovementioned magic-slinging flying main battle tanks that can yell fire is certainly reasonable.

Probably my favorite response thus far. And yes, based on all your input I have decided to go ahead and let him have it.

[Phelix-Mu]

He who fights monsters, etc.

This is basically why I frequent forums like this. Not that Nietzsche is the proper tonic for every ailment, but man was he right on the ball with this gem.

[Astralia123]

Note that Favoured Enemy by itself is not that of a powerful feature to start with, even when combined with Nemesis. (Nemesis feat, however, can sometimes ruin your plot due to its 30 feet auto-detection thing.)

Rangers are soooooo weak. At least weak when you are not playing with CoV spells.

[Kanthalion]

Well, right now he's a monk 1/scout 5. He's planning on this ranger level for next level.

[BrokenChord]

Well, right now he's a monk 1/scout 5. He's planning on this ranger level for next level.

I already like the sound of your game. Tell me, has the character up to this point been balanced with the rest of the party members, for the most part?

[Urpriest]

Well, right now he's a monk 1/scout 5. He's planning on this ranger level for next level.

Halfling Monk, by any chance? Those substitution levels are yummy.

[Kanthalion]

I already like the sound of your game. Tell me, has the character up to this point been balanced with the rest of the party members, for the most part?

Thus far, I'd say so. It hasn't been "the Cat show" on the over power side and I haven't felt the need to fudge the dice on the under power side. (Metaphorically speaking, of course. I told them from the beginning that RHoD is an epic module that loses its drama and in some ways won't make sense if there is no real fear of death)


Halfling Monk, by any chance? Those substitution levels are yummy.

Not halfling, Urpriest: Cat Folk.

[Troacctid]

What else is he going to pick as a 1st level favored enemy that will remain viable in the mid to high levels? Goblins and Orcs certainly won't, and anything else won't see enough use in the earlier levels to feel like it was worth taking except maybe Undead if the encounters are extremely Undead-heavy.
Humans? Humans show up a lot in a lot of settings. And the bonus applies to skill checks even if you're not fighting them.

[Kanthalion]

Humans? Humans show up a lot in a lot of settings. And the bonus applies to skill checks even if you're not fighting them.

I suppose if he was metagaming the module Hobgoblins would be an obvious choice. But I think he's thinking about the upcoming draconic encounters. Which I don't mind rewarding forethought as long as it isn't too heavy handed out of game knowledge.

[Snowbluff]

You know what they say, if you want to kill a dragon with arrows, be a ranger with FE: Arcanist and Dragons, and wield a Magebane Dragonbane bow. :smalltongue:

[Novawurmson]

It's worth noting that Pathfinder has the Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy) spell for rangers, and they're still not considered overpowered.

[Chronos]

I suppose if he was metagaming the module Hobgoblins would be an obvious choice.
Personally, I think that a DM ought to sit down with a ranger player before a campaign and give some advice on favored enemy, anyway (at least the first one: The player should be able to figure out others on his own). This is sort of a matter of narrative causality: If the land is being overrun by mind flayers, for instance, then of course the hero who emerges to stop them is going to be one who has reason to hate aberrations.

[Kanthalion]

Personally, I think that a DM ought to sit down with a ranger player before a campaign and give some advice on favored enemy, anyway (at least the first one: The player should be able to figure out others on his own). This is sort of a matter of narrative causality: If the land is being overrun by mind flayers, for instance, then of course the hero who emerges to stop them is going to be one who has reason to hate aberrations.

Those are good points for beginning a campaign, although it depends on your style too: Personally, when I'm not running a module I prefer to let the players be whatever they want (within reason--although one of these days I think I'll intentionally do a BoED friendly campaign) and then let the characters' skill sets and backgrounds drive the story.

That being said, I realized what I said about being metagaming if he took goblinoid doesn't really apply in my situation at all: We're well into the adventure and he's taking this first level of Ranger. If he had wanted to take that instead of Archanist, it would have made perfect in character sense.