Why no one uses readied actions?

[heavyfuel]

It seems to me that the forum consensus is that readying actions is a waste, and I always agreed. However, re-reading the SRD, it turns out that readying an action can make you invincible against melee attacks, which can really screw with someone like an uber-charger.

The relevant bit is the following


You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

So what we have is the possibility to ready an attack (standard action) against any melee attack from the melee threat. Assuming you both have the same reach, as soon as his melee attack initiates, you attack and take a 5ft step. Now he can't finish his attack because you're out of reach which means you're 1 for 0 in the hits department.


Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action

Now, on your next turn, just ready another action. On the enemy's turn, his option will be "not attacking you", "trying to attack you and failing", or "switch to less favored method of attacking you". Seems like this kind of setup can really screw melee builds, as if they didn't need every possible help they could get.

[georgie_leech]

Last I checked, D&D doesn't use declared actions. If someone moves up to you and attacks, and in response a readied action lets you move away, there's nothing preventing him from just moving back into reach and swinging anyway.

[torrasque666]

If they move, that's their move action. If they attack, that's their standard action. once they've moved up to you and attacked, and in response to being attacked you take a 5 foot step back, they no longer have any actions to use.

[georgie_leech]

If they move, that's their move action. If they attack, that's their standard action. once they've moved up to you and attacked, and in response to being attacked you take a 5 foot step back, they no longer have any actions to use.

Right, but in this case the Standard Action never occurs because Readied Actions happen before the triggering action completes. If the target of an attack isn't in range, it's a bit of a stretch to say you can try attacking it at all. Further, Move Actions aren't "move to this spot," they're "move up to X distance." If the Standard Action didn't occur, then the Move Action hasn't ended, and they can still move if they have movement left. I'll grant that it has utility if your opponent is exactly one Move Action away, but that seems a bit corner case.

[SiuiS]

Last I checked, D&D doesn't use declared actions. If someone moves up to you and attacks, and in response a readied action lets you move away, there's nothing preventing him from just moving back into reach and swinging anyway.

Not so. Look at charge, for example; you must charge to a creature into the square nearest you. If their five for step takes them out of reach, you couldn't have charged in the first place because the movement is now RAW illegal.

[Stygofthedump]

So this could augment trip fighters?

[NichG]

Not so. Look at charge, for example; you must charge to a creature into the square nearest you. If their five for step takes them out of reach, you couldn't have charged in the first place because the movement is now RAW illegal.

That's a much more limited set of circumstances than what the OP is suggesting though - that would only really allow you to avoid attacks if you readied an action and the person who triggers it was charging from a position such that there's a 5ft move you can make that would put you out of range/out of direct line of them. So then it messes with certain builds in certain circumstances, but no more so than e.g. creating a patch of rough terrain.

[Albions_Angel]

Forum consensus is dont use readied actions? In our scenario yesterday we were all using them to great effect. For a start it can reorder initiative which is huge. Second it can do some very interesting things.

So we were fighting a zombie ogre yesterday. It was 10 feet down a cliff and was blocking our path. We tied a rope round a party member, sent them down to see if it was agro and I readied an action OUTSIDE of initiative, ie, it would take place BEFORE any initiative roles if the requirement was left. My action? To run with the other end of the rope if I heard or saw any combat actions (shapeshifter druid variant, very strong, very fast). Low and behold, this thing shambles up to our roped off friend and up on the cliff, another of my comrades gets jumpy and launches some sort of eldritch fire blast at it. Boom, readied action, I haul this guys ass up the slope before anyone else can react. THEN we roll for initiative.

I fail my roll pretty bad. I get a 5 total and the zombie has something like a 15. Rest of the party did ok, but we had 2 above and 3 others below the zombie. Now this thing has to climb this cliff. So I get an initiative or 2 before he makes it up. First time round, me and the others after the zombie move to the edge of the cliff. Second time round we all ready actions if it comes within 10 feet (they had reach weapons, I have a 10 foot breath weapon). This thing makes it halfway up the cliff with one move action left (if it wants to double move) but our readied actions interrupt it. 3 slashes and an entangling breath weapon? Suddenly its not making it to the top this round. And now we go before it does in initiative because our readied actions put us before it.

We have used them to great effect before as well. Setting explosive charges down a tunnel, sending a fast scout and having them kite enemies back up the tunnel, readied to blow the charges as soon as they are past us. We got a dragon off its nest so 2 of our members could steal its eggs, with readied actions to retreat, getting the dragon wedged in a cave. I have even used readied actions on other party members, throwing them to safety, catching them if they fall, even stopping the chaotic or down right stupid ones from touching cursed objects, or simply jumping out the way if they do.

Just dont use it for normal stuff and its really powerful.

[KillianHawkeye]

I also disagree with the OP's premise. Readied actions are not universally considered a waste. They are, like many things, merely situational in usefulness. Sometimes, they may indeed be wasteful, but other times they are great.

[AvatarVecna]

Congratulations, instead of spending your own actions accomplishing something, you have instead spent your own action ensuring that a single melee mundane character can't attack you this turn. Things this doesn't help against:

--More than one Melee Mundane
--Melee Mundanes with significant reach
--Melee Mundanes that can extend their reach on the fly
--Melee Mundanes that can get additional movement
--Ranged Mundanes
--Spellcasters

Readied actions suck for the same reason fighters suck: you reduce your standard action to a thing that can only deal with one very specific threat at a time. Furthermore, with poor readied action wording, and poor communication between allies, you could end up with a situation like the OotS group found themselves in at the end of "On the Origin of PCs".

A spellcaster can ready an action to cast a spell at a more opportune moment, and that's about the most useful thing readied actions can be used for, and even then, they're only useful because of how versatile spells can be.

[Dr.Bakuga]

Forum consensus is dont use readied actions? In our scenario yesterday we were all using them to great effect. For a start it can reorder initiative which is huge. Second it can do some very interesting things.

So we were fighting a zombie ogre yesterday. It was 10 feet down a cliff and was blocking our path. We tied a rope round a party member, sent them down to see if it was agro and I readied an action OUTSIDE of initiative, ie, it would take place BEFORE any initiative roles if the requirement was left. My action? To run with the other end of the rope if I heard or saw any combat actions (shapeshifter druid variant, very strong, very fast). Low and behold, this thing shambles up to our roped off friend and up on the cliff, another of my comrades gets jumpy and launches some sort of eldritch fire blast at it. Boom, readied action, I haul this guys ass up the slope before anyone else can react. THEN we roll for initiative.

-Snip-

This is, in fact, illegal.


Special Initiative Actions
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.

....
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Link for the DnD 3.5 rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready)

Link for the identical Pathfinder rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Ready)

[Albions_Angel]

Well then its the only home rule my DM uses (and he hates home rules). It seemed so logical I have never looked up readied actions. If you prepare to do something tied to a specific trigger then of course it would alter initiative. Its no different from delaying until just before the monster in question. You are effectively delaying and then predefining what your actions will be. If the trigger doesnt happen, its the same as coming back in the initiative and failing to complete the action.

[georgie_leech]

Well then its the only home rule my DM uses (and he hates home rules). It seemed so logical I have never looked up readied actions. If you prepare to do something tied to a specific trigger then of course it would alter initiative. Its no different from delaying until just before the monster in question. You are effectively delaying and then predefining what your actions will be. If the trigger doesnt happen, its the same as coming back in the initiative and failing to complete the action.

It's not the initiative thing, but the readying outside of combat bit. It's a particularly stupid bit of RAW, because it means you can't do something like getting ready to shoot an arrow when someone opens a door, but it's technically RAW.

[Milodiah]

I use polearms quite a bit, and take advantage of the "set against a charge" rule surprisingly often.

[Psyren]

Note it says you can't move any distance during the round, which includes moving on your turn. So if you move at all that round, even a 5-foot step during your turn, you lose the ability to do this.

It is handy to know there is a way to step during an enemy's turn (aside from Step Up anyway.)

[Necroticplague]

Problem with readying actions is that it can only be a standard (+5foot step). Thus, you can't do things like charge or full-attack with it. Plus, in exchange for being able to interrupt some kinds of actions, you leave open the possibility that you end up twiddling your thumbs if the action you thought was going to occur didn't. Like if you ready an action for when he attacks you, then he instead Abrupt Juants past you. Now look ho just wasted their turn with their thumbs up their rear.

[PsychoBear]

If the attacker in question has movement left, it would not make you invincible, as once you 5 ft, they could finish their movement (if they haven't used it all up yet, of course) and get close to you again. If their movement is used up, you could have avoided them on your turn anyways by simply moving 5 ft out of their movement before their turn. So, it only makes you as invincible as you could have been had you 5 ft stepped during your turn instead. Otherwise, they get their full move, and could easily walk another 5 ft if they have enough movement left.

[Calimehter]

Problem with readying actions is that it can only be a standard (+5foot step). Thus, you can't do things like charge or full-attack with it.

Charge in the PHB has a specific clause that says you may charge as a standard action (only normal move, not double) if you are restricted to either a standard or move action and cannot take a full-round action. Shouldn't it, therefore, be possible to declare a charge as a readied action?

In most cases, you would be better off just charging on your initiative order (better available move distance, going before your opponent, etc.) but in the niche case where you couldn't charge on your own turn for whatever reason (terrain, obstacles) but strongly suspected your desired target might move into a more favorable position for your own charge on its turn, I could see it being useful.

[ahenobarbi]

Also immediate actions have the biggest advantage of readied actions (ability to act out of your turn) without their biggest dusadvantage (sacrificing standard action on your turn). They are somewhat more limited (unless you use celerity With stun immunity) and have extra cost of their own (swift action) but are in general a better deal

[Amphetryon]

If the attacker in question has movement left, it would not make you invincible, as once you 5 ft, they could finish their movement (if they haven't used it all up yet, of course) and get close to you again. If their movement is used up, you could have avoided them on your turn anyways by simply moving 5 ft out of their movement before their turn. So, it only makes you as invincible as you could have been had you 5 ft stepped during your turn instead. Otherwise, they get their full move, and could easily walk another 5 ft if they have enough movement left.

Although, if they've used their standard action to attack or cast a spell after making some movement, they'd need Spring Attack/Flyby Attack or another method to enable the 'move, attack, move' trifecta. And if they do have such methods at their disposal, and used their movement in the prescribed fashion, they'd generally need to have readied their own action to 'finish my movement if Target X moves away from me.'

That seems highly situational, unless I'm missing some specific nuance of your tactic.

[PsychoBear]

Although, if they've used their standard action to attack or cast a spell after making some movement, they'd need Spring Attack/Flyby Attack or another method to enable the 'move, attack, move' trifecta. And if they do have such methods at their disposal, and used their movement in the prescribed fashion, they'd generally need to have readied their own action to 'finish my movement if Target X moves away from me.'

That seems highly situational, unless I'm missing some specific nuance of your tactic.

Technically, the readied action occurs before they attack, so they are still in their movement action, and don't need spring attack. At least, were I the DM, that's how it would go down. I'm sure there is a rule somewhere that says readied actions go first.

[Agincourt]

Technically, the readied action occurs before they attack, so they are still in their movement action, and don't need spring attack. At least, were I the DM, that's how it would go down. I'm sure there is a rule somewhere that says readied actions go first.

Your understanding is correct. Readied Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm) "...specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." (Emphasis added.)

Assume character A, as a move action, moves into range of character B, which triggers character B's readied action. Character B attacks character A, but fails to kill character A. Character B then takes a five-foot step to the left. If character A still has movement left, he can continue his movement. This may allow character A to attack character B or possibly other characters.

Assume the same scenario, but instead character A is charging, and thus must move in a straight line. A five foot step from Character B may or may not prevent character A from charging in a straight line and still attacking Character B.

[Necroticplague]

Charge in the PHB has a specific clause that says you may charge as a standard action (only normal move, not double) if you are restricted to either a standard or move action and cannot take a full-round action. Shouldn't it, therefore, be possible to declare a charge as a readied action?

I'm aware of that clause. And no, you cannot. The partial charge is only if you're limited to a standard or move action (i.e., you're a zombie and only have one action, you've been Slowed). However, Readying an action does not, in any way, limit your actions. Its just that you can ready specific actions, and a charge does not fall within that category. You can no more ready a charge then you can ready a change in your stance, because those of them involve actions outside the scope of what readying allows for.

[heavyfuel]

Last I checked, D&D doesn't use declared actions. If someone moves up to you and attacks, and in response a readied action lets you move away, there's nothing preventing him from just moving back into reach and swinging anyway.

Indeed. If he has movement left in his move action, he can still reach you and attack. However, with some planning you can make sure he doesn't have this extra movement.


Forum consensus is dont use readied actions? In our scenario yesterday we were all using them to great effect. For a start it can reorder initiative which is huge. Second it can do some very interesting things.

(snip)

Just dont use it for normal stuff and its really powerful.


I also disagree with the OP's premise. Readied actions are not universally considered a waste. They are, like many things, merely situational in usefulness. Sometimes, they may indeed be wasteful, but other times they are great.

I've never said they didn't have their uses. Just that, in general, they are a waste of action. Especially since if you ready an action and the trigger doesn't occur, you just wasted your turn.


I use polearms quite a bit, and take advantage of the "set against a charge" rule surprisingly often.

Yeah, but this is at best a once per combat thing that depends on three factors: you winning the initiative (1) against an opponent that's a charger (2) with lesser or equal reach (3). It also sucks past BAB 11 because 4 attacks (1 regular, 2 iteratives 1 from haste, which you should have by this point) will almost always be better than one attack at double damage.

[ArqArturo]

I don't always ready an action; but, when I do, it's to disrupt spellcasters.

[Amphetryon]

Technically, the readied action occurs before they attack, so they are still in their movement action, and don't need spring attack. At least, were I the DM, that's how it would go down. I'm sure there is a rule somewhere that says readied actions go first.

Which now requires that no other party members or adversaries go in the interceding initiative order between your attack action and the designated opponent's attack action, unless there's yet a further nuance to this scenario. It also still appears to require 'interrupted movement,' which is not generally something allowed without a feat or special ability.


"...specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action." (Emphasis added.)
Perhaps I'm being dense, but I'm not seeing how this verbiage allows for the interrupted movement PsychoBear appears to be advocating. "Assuming he is still capable of doing so" is not permissive text (it doesn't grant special permission to do something), but restrictive text (it lists a specific limitation on whether the declared action is viable).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Readied actions have a few advantages and disadvantages.

1) It's usually better to be proactive, rather than reactive. Disadvantage.

2) When the readied action works as the player intended it can eliminate more enemy actions than player actions it risked losing. Advantage.

3) You have to be able to predict what an enemy will do. Could go either way. Enemy predictability can vary wildly.



In the particular instance of an enemy meleer moving up and attacking or charging; a simple ready action to trip and step away completely screws over the foe if succesful, even a whirl-pounce barb.

If you can reliably make a dc 40 tumble check or activate a training dummy of the master you could also ready an action to take a 10 foot step away from a charging foe's line of attack.

[PsychoBear]

Which now requires that no other party members or adversaries go in the interceding initiative order between your attack action and the designated opponent's attack action, unless there's yet a further nuance to this scenario. It also still appears to require 'interrupted movement,' which is not generally something allowed without a feat or special ability.

Perhaps I'm being dense, but I'm not seeing how this verbiage allows for the interrupted movement PsychoBear appears to be advocating. "Assuming he is still capable of doing so" is not permissive text (it doesn't grant special permission to do something), but restrictive text (it lists a specific limitation on whether the declared action is viable).

They way I see it, his movement is not interrupted. He ran up to attack and his target attacked instead, then moved back. He then continues moving and attacks. The readied action wouldn't interrupt his movement. If it did, AoOs would stop fleeing opponents every time.

[Amphetryon]

They way I see it, his movement is not interrupted. He ran up to attack and his target attacked instead, then moved back. He then continues moving and attacks. The readied action wouldn't interrupt his movement. If it did, AoOs would stop fleeing opponents every time.

Could you explain, then, why Spring Attack and similar feats are even listed as options for feats (aside from being even larger traps than the forum might generally consider them)? Everyone should simply use the technique you're describing, rather than ever, under any circumstances, taking any of the 'move-attack-move' feats.

[Troacctid]

I used a lot of readied actions in the last 4th edition campaign I played in. I was a fighter, so mostly "Ready an action to knock down/knock back the first enemy that comes within range of my polearm." They'd approach an ally and I'd smack them down before they could get close enough to attack. By readying instead of moving to them, I could do it without breaking formation.

[Calimehter]

I'm aware of that clause. And no, you cannot. The partial charge is only if you're limited to a standard or move action (i.e., you're a zombie and only have one action, you've been Slowed). However, Readying an action does not, in any way, limit your actions. Its just that you can ready specific actions, and a charge does not fall within that category. You can no more ready a charge then you can ready a change in your stance, because those of them involve actions outside the scope of what readying allows for.

Bold emphasis mine

I always interpreted it as a ready action *was* limiting your actions, since you were limited to a standard, move, or 'free' action to ready. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that way to think about it is that the ready action is a standard action that you *elected* to take and were not therefore 'limited' in your actions in the sense that a partial charge is allowed.

I get where you are coming from, but I am not wholly convinced. The ready action itself is a plain old standard action to be sure, preventing you from doing any other full round actions that round . . . however, the actual action "banked" by the ready action to be used later on is restricted in much the same way that the surprise round is, so I read that as being able to trigger the partial charge clause. They certainly have the same "fluff" justification (limited reaction time) tho I realize that doesn't count for much.

I've got no skin in the game either way, I'm just genuinely curious. :smallsmile:

[Curmudgeon]

The ready action itself is a plain old standard action to be sure, preventing you from doing any other full round actions that round . . . however, the actual action "banked" by the ready action to be used later on is restricted in much the same way that the surprise round is, so I read that as being able to trigger the partial charge clause.
Let's look at the actual rule text:

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but ...
Ready has special initiative repercussions, but it's still only part of your turn. For the whole of your turn you aren't restricted to only a standard action or a move action. If you take a move action, you've only got a standard action available for the rest of your turn. If you use Ready and select some standard action, you've only got a standard action available for the rest of your turn. The special Charge rule only applies if you're restricted on your turn, as opposed to partway through your turn after you've already taken some action. Ready is itself a standard action, which allows you to (later in the same round) take a pre-selected standard action. That standard action may be "banked" (to use your terminology), but the RAW says you've already used a standard action in the round.

[Ansem]

Readied actions eat your entire round (bye bye action economy) and are a chance mechanism of actually using the sacrificed round.....
Generally not worth doing so except to coordinate or be lucky against a predictable foe.

[Agincourt]

Could you explain, then, why Spring Attack and similar feats are even listed as options for feats (aside from being even larger traps than the forum might generally consider them)? Everyone should simply use the technique you're describing, rather than ever, under any circumstances, taking any of the 'move-attack-move' feats.

I don't even understand why you think Spring Attack is applicable to the situation. Let's assume your interpretation is correct. Ember moves 20 feet up to Tordek, triggering Tordek's readied action. Tordek attacks with his battleaxe, dealing X damage, then takes a five foot adjustment away.

What benefit would Spring Attack have for Ember in this situation? Ember has not used her standard action. If I am understanding your interpretation correctly, Tordek's readied action ends Ember's movement, regardless of how many feet she could normally travel with a move action. With only a standard action left, Spring Attack has no benefit.

[PsychoBear]

Could you explain, then, why Spring Attack and similar feats are even listed as options for feats (aside from being even larger traps than the forum might generally consider them)? Everyone should simply use the technique you're describing, rather than ever, under any circumstances, taking any of the 'move-attack-move' feats.

You misunderstand me. The reason the attacker would keep moving is because he did not attack. No attack was made, no standard action taken. This is why he would keep moving. Spring attack is used to move before and after an attack (or standard action, as I would rule it.)

[Chronos]

A bit niche, but another place where readied actions are useful is when you're fighting a spellcaster, and what you were going to do anyway was to spend a standard action to do damage at range. In a recent game, I was playing a warlock, and one of our opponents was a druid. I readied an action to Eldritch Blast him as soon as he did anything other than moving. This was in the hopes of disrupting a spell (we were still low enough level that Concentration checks weren't auto-succeed), but I readied for "do anything" because that way, even if he didn't choose to cast a spell, my action wouldn't be wasted.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To those saying readied action limits actions, bunk. You are free to take a move action before you ready your action. It's your decision to use that available action, or not.

[Calimehter]

To those saying readied action limits actions, bunk. You are free to take a move action before you ready your action. It's your decision to use that available action, or not.

Reading replies and thinking about the problem some more makes me think that the confusion comes from whether or not the readied action is still considered part of the "previous" turn - that is, the turn in which you used a standard action to ready the action in the first place. Consider the following:

Enemy: wins Init. and performs a standard and move action.

Player A: moves 20 feet or so (a move action) and uses a standard action at the end of that move to ready an action for the future.

Players B and C: Perform various standard and move actions

Enemy: Starts to perform an action that triggers the readied action from Player A. Player A does his readied action, then Enemy finishes resolving his various actions

Players B and C: now they go

Player A: Acts "just before" Enemy on his same initiative number and is now free to do move+standard or full round actions as needed.

-----------------

Now then, was Player A's first turn (move + standard) considered his whole turn, and anything else he did afterward (including his readied action) considered a brand new turn in and of its own right? Or is Player A's first turn really just end up being declared "Incomplete" and thus his readied action is still considered part of his first turn?

If the former (which is how I read it up till now), then it makes sense to treat the readied action as a new turn that is "limited" in a very similar fashion to a surprise round and thus allows partial charges. If the latter (as others seem to be suggesting, again if I read it right) then the readied action is just the standard action from earlier, just postponed, and would not be eligible for partial charges.

The reason I read it as the former was because Player A's first turn already had both a move action and a standard action - the act of Readying an action is defined as a standard action in and of itself in the PHB. The wording of the Ready action in the PHB further states that the readied action happens "after your turn is over but before your next one has begun" which implies that the move+ready ended the first turn, and that the (limited) readied action is its own brand-new turn.

Or, to phrase it another way, is the readied action just the same action as the Ready action and considered all part of one very-spread-out single turn . . . or is the readied action a seperate action from the Ready action (i.e. two actions total) and taking place on its own second turn? And no, I will not say that five times fast . . . :smallwink:

Edit: Tried to clean up the terminology to make it easier to understand my question

[Troacctid]

Reading replies and thinking about the problem some more makes me think that the confusion comes from whether or not the readied action is still considered part of the "current" round - that is, the round in which you used a standard action to ready the action in the first place.

Your scenario is explicitly, and I'd say unambiguously, covered in the rules.


If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

[SiuiS]

That's a much more limited set of circumstances than what the OP is suggesting though - that would only really allow you to avoid attacks if you readied an action and the person who triggers it was charging from a position such that there's a 5ft move you can make that would put you out of range/out of direct line of them. So then it messes with certain builds in certain circumstances, but no more so than e.g. creating a patch of rough terrain.

You're right, and we only use them because we use the vague 3.0 but about a standard action being able to be a move or standard action. But this is where utility comes in; skate, teleport item, stuff like that.


Congratulations, instead of spending your own actions accomplishing something, you have instead spent your own action ensuring that a single melee mundane character can't attack you this turn. Things this doesn't help against:

--More than one Melee Mundane
--Melee Mundanes with significant reach
--Melee Mundanes that can extend their reach on the fly
--Melee Mundanes that can get additional movement
--Ranged Mundanes
--Spellcasters

Readied actions suck for the same reason fighters suck: you reduce your standard action to a thing that can only deal with one very specific threat at a time. Furthermore, with poor readied action wording, and poor communication between allies, you could end up with a situation like the OotS group found themselves in at the end of "On the Origin of PCs".

A spellcaster can ready an action to cast a spell at a more opportune moment, and that's about the most useful thing readied actions can be used for, and even then, they're only useful because of how versatile spells can be.

Eh.

I don't remember the details because the faction wasn't relevant at the time, but there was a significant war advantage to keeping a fleet ready to sail rather than actually deployed; it's the same sensation in chess where the potential of someone to deploy a piece is more potent at control than deploying the piece.

You can also ready an action to attack or otherwise interrupt a spell caster when they use a spell. Sure, a readied sword stroke won't necessarily do much (movement) and a readied arrow will likely do less (archery is screwed) but a meta magic'd cone of cold or scorching ray or acid orb should do enough damage to pick apart even an optimized wizard's concentration.

[Calimehter]

Your scenario is explicitly, and I'd say unambiguously, covered in the rules.

But that doesn't answer my question at all. :smallfrown: That's probably my fault, I think I used the term "round" in my post when I meant "turn" in a key place - I'll go back and edit it now.

That bit you referenced talks about how to figure out Player A's future initiative value after the readied action has gone off - but it still doesn't say whether or not the readied action is its own (inherently limited and therefore permitting a partial charge) turn or not. In the bit I described, I see player A having 3 seperate turns . . . two standard turns at the beginning and end, and one "partial" turn in the middle where he performed his readied action.

[Amphetryon]

You misunderstand me. The reason the attacker would keep moving is because he did not attack. No attack was made, no standard action taken. This is why he would keep moving. Spring attack is used to move before and after an attack (or standard action, as I would rule it.)

If he hasn't attacked yet, then referring to him as 'the attacker' is disingenuous, as he's done nothing to earn that appellation at the point where you first apply that label. When a person is called an attacker, my default reading is that he's actually attacked something.

[Sartharina]

It's not the initiative thing, but the readying outside of combat bit. It's a particularly stupid bit of RAW, because it means you can't do something like getting ready to shoot an arrow when someone opens a door, but it's technically RAW.I think it actually works well. If you do something like this, it means you can't be surprised. However, there's still an initiative contest to see whether you can shoot the person before they get to act. Readying actions requires sacrificing your initiative. Yes, you were planning on shooting the guy who burst through the door in the face - but he's still responsive enough to act before you can take your action.

Readying an action requires you to sacrifice your initiative.

[nedz]

There are situations where Readied Actions are the best tactic, but frequently they are not.

I've run lots of encounters with sneaky monsters and I've tried both having them ready an action or just waiting for their initiative. The main advantage with them waiting for their initiative is that they get to take either a standard + move action or a full round action instead of just a standard — so they lose out on the action economy, often fatally. If they ready an action then they get to make one sneak attack, before being stranded and cut down; by waiting: they get to hit and run.

Sacrificing a few places in the initiative order is also an opportunity cost; but it seems, from experience, less significant.

Either way: it's about the action economy.

[Rastapopolos]

Ansem

Readied actions eat your entire round (bye bye action economy) and are a chance mechanism of actually using the sacrificed round....




SRD
Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Theres nothing to stop you using all your turn except your standard action then readying. (eg swift action spell, concentrate on spell, ready standard action with the 5ft step works as you haven't moved)


PsychoBear
Technically, the readied action occurs before they attack, so they are still in their movement action, and don't need spring attack. At least, were I the DM, that's how it would go down. I'm sure there is a rule somewhere that says readied actions go first.
You are correct readied actions do go first however all that needs doing is changing the ready condition to "take melee damage" rather than "be attacked in melee" that way your ready triggers after they have rolled to hit but before they roll damage... Attack disrupted... Its like a poor mans contingancy/abrupt jaunt

[Psyren]

Theres nothing to stop you using all your turn except your standard action then readying. (eg swift action spell, concentrate on spell, ready standard action with the 5ft step works as you haven't moved)

Actually, since concentrating on a spell is usually a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#concentratingtoMaintainaSpell) , you can't do both that and Ready unless you find a way to change the action used for one of them (or get extra standard actions.)

[Rastapopolos]

Actually, since concentrating on a spell is usually a standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#concentratingtoMaintainaSpell) , you can't do both that and Ready unless you find a way to change the action used for one of them (or get extra standard actions.)

yea my bad... have been working day and night shifts this week and just posted the first thing i saw on the google http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/extraordinary-concentration--1056/... point still stands though... Just substitute it with some other extremely cheesy way to use a move action (im open to suggestions)

[Curmudgeon]

Reading replies and thinking about the problem some more makes me think that the confusion comes from whether or not the readied action is still considered part of the "previous" turn - that is, the turn in which you used a standard action to ready the action in the first place.
This speculation doesn't actually matter. Yes, if the triggering action doesn't occur in the round Ready was used but does occur in the next round, that would be a round when the PC only got a standard action. However, readying a Charge still wouldn't be an acceptable use of Ready.
Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. A Charge would only be a standard action in the second round, not the first. If the PC tried to use Ready specifying the trigger and Charge as the action readied, that would be an illegal readied action immediately (in the first round) but legal in the second round. Because it's not RAW legal when specified, it's just not possibly by the rules; that it might become legal later doesn't matter because it's not permitted.

Now, if the PC were under the influence of Slow, it would be legal to specify Charge as the readied action.

[emeraldstreak]

It seems to me that the forum consensus is that readying actions is a waste, and I always agreed. However, re-reading the SRD, it turns out that readying an action can make you invincible against melee attacks, which can really screw with someone like an uber-charger.



You're correct. Ready Action is deadly in the hands of arena masters.

[Optimator]

I don't know what you're talking about; my group uses readied actions all the time.

[Calimehter]

TA Charge would only be a standard action in the second round, not the first. If the PC tried to use Ready specifying the trigger and Charge as the action readied, that would be an illegal readied action immediately (in the first round) but legal in the second round.

Why is this true?

If Player A completes a full turn (with his standard action being to ready an action) on, say, an Initiative of 15 . . . why would it make a difference if his readied action (assuming it happens at all) happens on initiative 14 of the current round or initiative 26 of the following round?

The ready action as I read it gives the player a (potential) "extra" turn at the expense of the standard action of his current turn. This bonus turn, because it is limited to either a move or a standard action, is functionally a limited turn as defined in the charge rules, so a partial charge would qualify as a readied action whether the "bonus" turn happened later in the current round or early in the following round.

[Curmudgeon]

This bonus turn, because it is limited to either a move or a standard action, is functionally a limited turn as defined in the charge rules, so a partial charge would qualify as a readied action whether the "bonus" turn happened later in the current round or early in the following round.
The bolded part is incorrect; there is no "bonus turn" with Ready — just special initiative consequences of when the readied action will occur — and that difference is of critical importance because the standard action Charge is an option dependent on your turn's action availability. If you have no restriction on actions available at the start of your turn, take some actions during that turn (including using the Ready standard action) and then only have a standard/move action left for the rest of your turn, you don't fit the specification in the rules:
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

[Crake]

It's not the initiative thing, but the readying outside of combat bit. It's a particularly stupid bit of RAW, because it means you can't do something like getting ready to shoot an arrow when someone opens a door, but it's technically RAW.

Well, technically, if the person behind the door doesn't know you're there (or aren't aware that you're hostile), then your "readied" action is actually just the surprise round, and if they DO know you're there, and are aware of hostilities, then it's already combat anyway, and you can ready.

[emeraldstreak]

By RAW, you cannot Ready Action outside Initiative. That's it. There's only one exception, a prestige class (unless Dragon Magazine introduced others when I wasn't playing 3.5 anymore). Needless to say, it's kind of a powerful feature because it let's you act even before a Dire Tortoise Batman Wizard.

[Deophaun]

You are correct readied actions do go first however all that needs doing is changing the ready condition to "take melee damage" rather than "be attacked in melee" that way your ready triggers after they have rolled to hit but before they roll damage... Attack disrupted... Its like a poor mans contingancy/abrupt jaunt
Except it doesn't work. After the attack roll, there is no check to determine if the target is still in range or on the same plane, or even if the attacker still exists at all. The SRD is clear:

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.
End of story. You need a power to specifically say otherwise for you to escape damage after an attack has been made. Neither contingency nor abrupt jaunt can do it.

[Curmudgeon]

Except it doesn't work. After the attack roll, there is no check to determine if the target is still in range or on the same plane, or even if the attacker still exists at all.
The Player's Handbook encourages you to roll attack and damage dice together for efficient play, because (as Deophaun cited) there is no separation in the game world. From page 142:
SPEEDING UP COMBAT
You can use a few tricks to make combat run faster.
Attack and Damage: Roll your attack die and damage die (or dice) at the same time. If you miss, you can ignore the damage, but if you hit, your friends don’t have to wait for you to make a second roll for damage.
Multiple Attacks: Use dice of different colors so you can make your attack rolls all at once instead of one at a time. Designate which attack is which color before you roll.

[emeraldstreak]

Except it doesn't work. After the attack roll, there is no check to determine if the target is still in range or on the same plane, or even if the attacker still exists at all. The SRD is clear:

End of story. You need a power to specifically say otherwise for you to escape damage after an attack has been made. Neither contingency nor abrupt jaunt can do it.

I have to side with Bakuga, Agincourt, and Curmudgeon.

However, there's one nitpick. I doubt a meta-action is an appropriate trigger to a Ready Action. Thus "after he beats my AC, but before he rolls damage" cannot be a trigger; unlike "step away before he slashes me".

[Amphetryon]

I have to side with Bakuga, Agincourt, and Curmudgeon.

However, there's one nitpick. I doubt a meta-action is an appropriate trigger to a Ready Action. Thus "after he beats my AC, but before he rolls damage" cannot be a trigger; unlike "step away before he slashes me".

To be fair, the difference between the two listed potential triggers is difficult to separate on a greater than semantic level.

[heavyfuel]

Just had another idea on how to use readied actions. Just need to check the RAW legality of it

Considering you can ready a free action, you should also be able to ready a Swift Action. If you can in fact do that, what would happen if you were to ready and use White Raven Tactics? I assume you'd give your ally an entire round to interrupt others. This can have its uses.

[emeraldstreak]

Just had another idea on how to use readied actions. Just need to check the RAW legality of it

Considering you can ready a free action, you should also be able to ready a Swift Action. If you can in fact do that, what would happen if you were to ready and use White Raven Tactics? I assume you'd give your ally an entire round to interrupt others. This can have its uses.

there's no such logic

[Necroticplague]

Just had another idea on how to use readied actions. Just need to check the RAW legality of it

Considering you can ready a free action, you should also be able to ready a Swift Action. If you can in fact do that, what would happen if you were to ready and use White Raven Tactics? I assume you'd give your ally an entire round to interrupt others. This can have its uses.

The bolded part is wrong. Readying allows you to ready very specific types of actions.No more, no less.

[tyckspoon]

The bolded part is wrong. Readying allows you to ready very specific types of actions.No more, no less.

I don't think there's any reason you can't take a Swift action as part of your readied Standard, tho- you are taking an action, and so would be allowed to perform Free actions, and so you can perform a Swift action. So you can Ready something else and fire off WRT or another Boost or whatever as part of it without having to call that out as a specific part of your Readied action. It wouldn't provide a full turn of interrupting; WRT sets initiative to (You-1), which would lead to your WRT target acting after the guy you Readied against. Might do some interesting things if you combine it with Delay, however, especially after you've figured out where the desired dogpile target's Initiative is.

[Fitz10019]

With a readied action "you interrupt the other character" -- that does not negate the fact that he made a choice to act. If you ready your action for when the other person attacks (instead of when he's close enough to be hit), then that person has ended their movement to attack. They can't then say "well, I haven't done anything, so I'll move 5 more feet with my remaining unused movement."

I've readied to 5-ft step inside the adjacent safezone of my opponent's glaive, triggered when he swung at me. I kept re-readying to step and hit when he swung. It was a sparring duel with another party member. He eventually threw away his glaive and tackled me. I got him to give up his best weapon.

I've readied to throw a tanglefoot bag at an already-entangled foe, triggered when/if he broke out, and used my free action to tell the others to finish him with ranged attacks [it wasn't a guy we wanted to get near.]

I've readied to hit a spellcaster when he 5-ft stepped away. He cast, and I hit him as an AoO, then he stepped away and I hit him with the readied action. [I think the DM meta-gamed my readied action at the beginning of the caster's turn, and then forgot about it after the spell was cast.]

[heavyfuel]

The bolded part is wrong. Readying allows you to ready very specific types of actions.No more, no less.

Well, the SRD says:


You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

So if I can ready a free action, that means I should be able to ready a Swift Action as well.



I don't think there's any reason you can't take a Swift action as part of your readied Standard, tho- you are taking an action, and so would be allowed to perform Free actions, and so you can perform a Swift action. So you can Ready something else and fire off WRT or another Boost or whatever as part of it without having to call that out as a specific part of your Readied action. It wouldn't provide a full turn of interrupting; WRT sets initiative to (You-1), which would lead to your WRT target acting after the guy you Readied against. Might do some interesting things if you combine it with Delay, however, especially after you've figured out where the desired dogpile target's Initiative is.

Can you take Free Actions when you're making an action? I thought Free Actions were (with some exceptions) allowed only your turn, although I'm not sure on that.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, you can Ready a swift action. From page 110 of Rules Compendium:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. That explicit statement isn't needed, though; you can use a swift action when you're allowed a free action, and Ready makes it your turn (again) when the triggered action occurs so you're allowed to take a free action.

[Calimehter]

The bolded part is incorrect; there is no "bonus turn" with Ready — just special initiative consequences of when the readied action will occur — and that difference is of critical importance because the standard action Charge is an option dependent on your turn's action availability.

Are we sure, though? I am aware that the wording in the Ready section of the PHB doesn't specifically say that you get a "bonus" turn . . . but isn't that functionally what is happening?

Round 1:

Player A (on Initiative 20) moves 30' and Readies an action (which is a standard action in and of itself) - and has thus completed his turn by using both a move and a standard action, right?

Player B (Init. 15) - shoots a bow or casts a spell or something

Enemy (Init. 10) - Moves 50' closer to the PCs . . . and in doing so triggers the readied action of Player A, who acts on Init. 10 "just before" the Enemy.

Round 2:

Player B (Init 15 still) - does more stuff

Player A and Enemy (both on Init. 10 now) - both now get full turns with a move and standard action each.

---------------------

In the above example, Player A has had a full player turn on Init. 20 in Round 1 (i.e. he did a move + standard action) and a full player turn in Round 2 on Init. 10. So, what do you call the readied action that occured on Init. 10 in Round 1?

[tyckspoon]

With a readied action "you interrupt the other character" -- that does not negate the fact that he made a choice to act. If you ready your action for when the other person attacks (instead of when he's close enough to be hit), then that person has ended their movement to attack. They can't then say "well, I haven't done anything, so I'll move 5 more feet with my remaining unused movement."


This creates a bizarre state of reality that really highlights the way D&D absolutely fails at simultaneous action. If you 5-foot step away from his attack, well, that's dependent on his *having attacked.* But you step away *before* he attacks. And now he can't attack, so.. what happens to that attack? He hasn't made it yet, and he isn't actually commited to that action until he does it. So he should be able to do *something* with that action other than pointlessly swing at empty air. But if he chooses to do something other than attack, then your readied action never sees its trigger, and so you don't move away... so he attacks. You can probably see where this goes.

[Deadline]

You are correct readied actions do go first however all that needs doing is changing the ready condition to "take melee damage" rather than "be attacked in melee" that way your ready triggers after they have rolled to hit but before they roll damage... Attack disrupted... Its like a poor mans contingancy/abrupt jaunt

That's not entirely accurate. Your readied action takes place before your opponent's action. Rolling damage and rolling an attack roll are not separate actions. You can do just fine with setting your triggering condition to "an enemy makes a melee attack against me" instead of "an enemy moves adjacent to me". So that will lead to the desired scenario where:

Attacker A moves adjacent to the Ready Ranger.
Attacker A makes a melee attack on the Ready Ranger.
---> Ready Ranger's Readied action triggers and is completed before the attack (he moves 5' back).
Attacker A can no longer reach the Readied Ranger, so his attack fizzles.

Bizarrely enough, you can't protect yourself against a Charge by using Readied Actions, because a Charge is a single action by your opponent, meaning that your triggered action would take place before the Charge, and unless your 5' step moves you out of Charge range, you still get Charged. This also happens if you use the "an enemy moves adjacent to me" option, because in that case you wind up with Schroedinger's Charge (your readied action triggers before the action, but if that's the case then it triggers before they are adjacent, but then it doesn't trigger, but then, and then ...).

And, of course, 5' of reach will end your 'invincibility' for the original scenario, because a 5' step won't get you out of their reach, and further movement would provoke an AoO.

So yeah, readied actions have their uses, but invincibility isn't one of them.

[Curmudgeon]

Rolling damage and rolling an attack roll are not separate actions.
Let's keep in mind that neither of these are character actions; they're player actions instead. In the game, the character attacks and (if successful) deals damage as one action (or no action, in the case of AoOs). The player isn't constrained to get all of their turn's actions done in 6 seconds. That relaxed pace for the game players may make them think there are more decision points in their turn than actually exist by the game rules. Absent special exceptions in the rules, there's no separation between attacking and dealing damage.

[NichG]

This creates a bizarre state of reality that really highlights the way D&D absolutely fails at simultaneous action. If you 5-foot step away from his attack, well, that's dependent on his *having attacked.* But you step away *before* he attacks. And now he can't attack, so.. what happens to that attack? He hasn't made it yet, and he isn't actually commited to that action until he does it. So he should be able to do *something* with that action other than pointlessly swing at empty air. But if he chooses to do something other than attack, then your readied action never sees its trigger, and so you don't move away... so he attacks. You can probably see where this goes.

In other game systems, situations like that would likely be resolved with some kind of contested roll. "If you wish to react to something someone else does before they can complete it but after they've initiated it, but they wish to complete it before you can fully react, both roll X against eachother and the better roll gets their way."

In a sense, initiative order in combat is exactly that. You have what should be a set of simultaneous actions resolving during a chunk of time. However, by comparing initiative rolls you break down that simultaneous chunk into a particular ordering of events combined with the option to change one's intended behavior based on the events so far. So one could argue that by having already won initiative, the person who is readying the action has already performed such a kind of contested roll. However I think there are problems with that interpretation. The biggest problem is that initiative is cyclic, so the person with the higher initiative roll doesn't actually retain the advantage of that roll once the round has started to cycle around - so it's not really structured the same way as a contested roll. Secondly, the task of splitting time finely enough to react at a very specific moment during someone else's turn is a separate task from 'taking your action as quickly as possible'.

So to resolve this in a way that feels natural to the narrative, I think either D&D needs to introduce a roll to model the contested nature of this event or it needs to define the concept of continuous action versus instantaneous action - e.g. the ability to declare in a rules sense 'I go up to him and attack him' as opposed to 'I move to X square and take an attack action towards the west'. The former would be a continuous action in the sense that if the situation on the field changes during the action, the parameters of the action change within their bounds to maintain the declared intent or target. An instantaneous action would be something like the precise moment of attack (e.g. the attack roll and damage resolution). The paradox could then be resolved by saying that any readied action which is intended to interrupt something must be defined with respect to a continuous action as its trigger, whereas a readied action triggered by an instantaneous action always happens after the action completes.

[Deophaun]

Bizarrely enough, you can't protect yourself against a Charge by using Readied Actions, because a Charge is a single action by your opponent, meaning that your triggered action would take place before the Charge, and unless your 5' step moves you out of Charge range, you still get Charged.
Not true, as there is the following:

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
Now, I know what you're thinking: it says "activities, not actions." Correct, but inconsequential because:

action: A character activity. Actions are divided into the following categories, according to the time required to perform them (from most time required to least): full-round actions, standard actions, move actions, and free actions.
So, you can interrupt an activity, which means you can interrupt an action, because activities are actions and actions are activities.

And if you don't think this is the operational interpretation of the rule set, keep in mind that readying a weapon against a Charge would not work if the game interpreted this any other way, and yet the rules insist it does.

[Curmudgeon]

Bizarrely enough, you can't protect yourself against a Charge by using Readied Actions, because a Charge is a single action by your opponent, meaning ...
This assumes D&D actions are atomic, and follow from intents. They're not, and the game also doesn't have declared actions (except in a few special cases like Stunning Fist). Failure to notice a bit of difficult terrain, for instance, will foil an attempted Charge after the PC has already moved. At that point it becomes clear the action isn't a Charge, but something else; the player can resolve that movement as anything that's legal, such as one or two move actions, instead.

You can, for instance, move 5' when not threatened and attack an enemy, then decide after that swing whether you're going to a) treat that 5' movement as a 5' adjustment and make a full attack; or b) treat that 5' movement as part of a split move action and Spring Attack. It's all up for grabs until something requires you to narrow it down to specific D&D actions.

[Troacctid]

This creates a bizarre state of reality that really highlights the way D&D absolutely fails at simultaneous action. If you 5-foot step away from his attack, well, that's dependent on his *having attacked.* But you step away *before* he attacks. And now he can't attack, so.. what happens to that attack? He hasn't made it yet, and he isn't actually commited to that action until he does it. So he should be able to do *something* with that action other than pointlessly swing at empty air. But if he chooses to do something other than attack, then your readied action never sees its trigger, and so you don't move away... so he attacks. You can probably see where this goes.

There's nothing paradoxical about pointlessly swinging at empty air. You're allowed to attack unoccupied squares. I attack, you 5-foot step away in response, and my attack whiffs. Makes perfect sense.

[Sartharina]

This creates a bizarre state of reality that really highlights the way D&D absolutely fails at simultaneous action. If you 5-foot step away from his attack, well, that's dependent on his *having attacked.* But you step away *before* he attacks. And now he can't attack, so.. what happens to that attack? He hasn't made it yet, and he isn't actually commited to that action until he does it. So he should be able to do *something* with that action other than pointlessly swing at empty air. But if he chooses to do something other than attack, then your readied action never sees its trigger, and so you don't move away... so he attacks. You can probably see where this goes.Nah. He whiffs at air because you move.

What bothers me about Readied actions that allows this kind of thing is that you act before your interrupted opponent on subsequent turns. Readying an action is supposed to sacrifice your initiative. But I guess that would make counterspelling even worse.Then again, readying against readied actions is always viable.

[georgie_leech]

There's nothing paradoxical about pointlessly swinging at empty air. You're allowed to attack unoccupied squares. I attack, you 5-foot step away in response, and my attack whiffs. Makes perfect sense.

You're not choosing to swing in a square though. You're choosing to swing at a creature. Under the interpretation of "You swing and missed because I 5-foot stepped out of reach," why should it be any different if you 5-foot stepped right and remained in reach? Or 5-foot stepped slightly forward and are now beside the attacker?

[emeraldstreak]

You're not choosing to swing in a square though. You're choosing to swing at a creature. Under the interpretation of "You swing and missed because I 5-foot stepped out of reach," why should it be any different if you 5-foot stepped right and remained in reach? Or 5-foot stepped slightly forward and are now beside the attacker?

Clearly. You are aiming at a creature and per the Ready Action you cannot continue with your intended action anymore.