Haste vs. Enlarge/Reduce

[Atmosk]

Im playing a Eldritch knight character and am trying to decide between haste and enlarge/reduce as my level 14 spell. Seems like enlarge would do more damage since ill be attacking three times per round for most of its duration making it do an extra 4d4 against hastes 1d8+2 (I'm using dueling style), but I think there might be something more to consider... thoughts?

[Madfellow]

Well, let's do a side-by-side comparison, shall we?

Enlarge: 3d4 = 3 x 2.5 = 7.5 extra damage per turn

Haste: 1d8+2 = 4.5 + 2 = 6.5 extra damage

Enlarge wins, by a very small margin. That is, if you're only taking damage into account. There are other considerations to think about as well.

[Gnomes2169]

Haste is one of those "god tier" buff spells that is useful is almost every situation, since it just gives you so very many things for such a small cost (double movement+an extra attack+2 AC+Advantage on dex saves). Enlarge just gives... damage. I'd personally go with haste here.

[Madfellow]

Enlarge just gives... damage.

Don't sell it short; it gives a lot more than just damage. Being able to grow to 12' tall or shrink to 3' small can have a wide variety of RP and out-of-combat uses.

[Maxilian]

Don't sell it short; it gives a lot more than just damage. Being able to grow to 12' tall or shrink to 3' small can have a wide variety of RP and out-of-combat uses.

and also having in mind that the target will weight 8 times more, you could easily use that to fall on top of your enemies and do a lot of damage or just make the poor bastard that's standing in the middle of the bridge bigger... Ups it looks like the bridge just broke and now he's falling to his death with his teammates :smallbiggrin:

[Rummy]

Don't you get to add your Str/Dex to the extra attack? 1d8+2+5 averages to 11.5 damage. Add at least 1 for magic and its 12.5. Throw in the extra movement and AC boost and it is significantly better than enlarge most of the time.

[Gnomes2169]

In fact you do get your str/ dex (whichever is applicable) bonus to the hast attack's damage, so it does do more damage...

[Madfellow]

Don't you get to add your Str/Dex to the extra attack? 1d8+2+5 averages to 11.5 damage. Add at least 1 for magic and its 12.5. Throw in the extra movement and AC boost and it is significantly better than enlarge most of the time.

Oh, you're right. I forgot about that.

[Atmosk]

I wish I could use both lol

[MaxWilson]

Im playing a Eldritch knight character and am trying to decide between haste and enlarge/reduce as my level 14 spell. Seems like enlarge would do more damage since ill be attacking three times per round for most of its duration making it do an extra 4d4 against hastes 1d8+2 (I'm using dueling style), but I think there might be something more to consider... thoughts?

Neither one is fantastic as a self-buff, but at least Enlarge gives you advantage on something useful (grappling) and doesn't make you lose a turn when you blow your Concentration check. As a buff from someone else, I'd take Haste. As a self-buff, I'd take Enlarge. Although I'd rather take Blur than either of the others.


Haste is one of those "god tier" buff spells that is useful is almost every situation, since it just gives you so very many things for such a small cost (double movement+an extra attack+2 AC+Advantage on dex saves). Enlarge just gives... damage. I'd personally go with haste here.

Haste gives advantage on Dex checks, not saves. Unfortunately.

[Bellberith]

Neither one is fantastic as a self-buff, but at least Enlarge gives you advantage on something useful (grappling) and doesn't make you lose a turn when you blow your Concentration check. As a buff from someone else, I'd take Haste. As a self-buff, I'd take Enlarge. Although I'd rather take Blur than either of the others.



Haste gives advantage on Dex checks, not saves. Unfortunately.


Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target’s speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. When the spell ends, the target can’t move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it.

Haste is probably the #1 buff in the game. also with the way staves work.... you can have that "use object action" to use your staff and shoot a fireball via staff of fire in the rise of tiamat book. with just your extra hasted action.

[odigity]

Although I'd rather take Blur than either of the others.

Blur is Concentration. Mirror Image is not. Why not Mirror Image? It's my favorite due to non-con. (In theory... haven't gotten access to any of the above in 5e myself, yet.)

[Rummy]

Blur is Concentration. Mirror Image is not. Why not Mirror Image? It's my favorite due to non-con. (In theory... haven't gotten access to any of the above in 5e myself, yet.)

Goes away too fast if you are a Melee PC. If you are a back lines caster, it is fantastic.

[Bellberith]

Goes away too fast if you are a Melee PC. If you are a back lines caster, it is fantastic.

Mirror image + Haste on a melee PC that can cast the spell "shield" is extremely powerful.

11fighter / 9sorcerer or something of that sort can make you into a physical monster. with defensive combat style on fighter thats 19AC (in full plate) and with haste its 21AC. add in shield casts and thats 26AC. even at level 20 many things would be hard pressed to hit you. thats not even including +3 armor which brings AC to 29. add ring of protection and thats 30AC

even a pure physical fighter with a +3 weapon, 20 strength or dex and 5 prof bonus would only hit you 20% of the time. even if he got through the mirror images.

And sorcerers would be able to quicken mirror image if they all went down. on top of quicken dimension door or distanced misty step for that long range teleport action.........

[MaxWilson]

Blur is Concentration. Mirror Image is not. Why not Mirror Image? It's my favorite due to non-con. (In theory... haven't gotten access to any of the above in 5e myself, yet.)

You could argue it either way. Mirror Image is good if you have high DX and are fighting something which hits really hard. You could also argue for Web, or Suggestion ("Surrender!" goes well with Eldritch Strike), or any number of things, especially those which expand your options by targeting something other than AC. I just picked one which is decent and which I value more as a self-buff than Enlarge or Haste.


Mirror image + Haste on a melee PC that can cast the spell "shield" is extremely powerful.

11fighter / 9sorcerer or something of that sort can make you into a physical monster. with defensive combat style on fighter thats 19AC (in full plate) and with haste its 21AC. add in shield casts and thats 26AC. even at level 20 many things would be hard pressed to hit you. thats not even including +3 armor which brings AC to 29. add ring of protection and thats 30AC

even a pure physical fighter with a +3 weapon, 20 strength or dex and 5 prof bonus would only hit you 20% of the time. even if he got through the mirror images.

And sorcerers would be able to quicken mirror image if they all went down. on top of quicken dimension door or distanced misty step for that long range teleport action.........

This is a great example of why it's good to have options that target something other than AC instead of meeting AC head-on. BTW, don't forget Shield of Faith from another caster, and an actual shield, which boosts your AC to 30 without requiring fancy magic items.

Disintegrate is fantastic in this edition because 1.) tough monsters tend to have high AC and very low DX saves, 2.) there are a multitude of spells/conditions which decrease DX saves even futher. Web is fantastic for a similar reason.

[Bakakiba]

For concentration spells, I like faerie fire so that everyone can join the fun. Hold person is also good for some piñata action.

[Bellberith]

You could argue it either way. Mirror Image is good if you have high DX and are fighting something which hits really hard. You could also argue for Web, or Suggestion ("Surrender!" goes well with Eldritch Strike), or any number of things, especially those which expand your options by targeting something other than AC. I just picked one which is decent and which I value more as a self-buff than Enlarge or Haste.



This is a great example of why it's good to have options that target something other than AC instead of meeting AC head-on. BTW, don't forget Shield of Faith from another caster, and an actual shield, which boosts your AC to 30 without requiring fancy magic items.

Disintegrate is fantastic in this edition because 1.) tough monsters tend to have high AC and very low DX saves, 2.) there are a multitude of spells/conditions which decrease DX saves even futher. Web is fantastic for a similar reason.

it may not require magic items but it would require another person.... generally people don't like to rely on someone else for their combo to be complete.

aside from that, options that don't target AC is party why haste is so valuable with its dex save advantage. fighters already have proficiency in con/str so that leaves the mental stats. indomitable helps with those but you can always get some sort of defense against those through a magic item of some sort.

[MaxWilson]

it may not require magic items but it would require another person.... generally people don't like to rely on someone else for their combo to be complete.

aside from that, options that don't target AC is party why haste is so valuable with its dex save advantage. fighters already have proficiency in con/str so that leaves the mental stats. indomitable helps with those but you can always get some sort of defense against those through a magic item of some sort.

Haste doesn't boost DX saves, it only boosts DX checks. This would be useful if the duration were longer (initiative is a DX check) but at 1 minute, this benefit is almost entirely useless. The only thing it really helps are Acrobatics rolls to avoid grappling and deal with rough terrain (slippery banisters, fighting on wet rocks, etc.).

PCs who fail to cooperate with other party members are foolish. Especially since Concentration was introduced into 5E, which greatly weakens self-buffs.

[Bellberith]

Haste doesn't boost DX saves, it only boosts DX checks. This would be useful if the duration were longer (initiative is a DX check) but at 1 minute, this benefit is almost entirely useless. The only thing it really helps are Acrobatics rolls to avoid grappling and deal with rough terrain (slippery banisters, fighting on wet rocks, etc.).

PCs who fail to cooperate with other party members are foolish. Especially since Concentration was introduced into 5E, which greatly weakens self-buffs.


Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target’s speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. When the spell ends, the target can’t move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it.

this is the second time ive posted this.

its not that the person is failing to cooperate. it is that the person is self-sufficient. he is stronger with the other buffs you mentioned for sure.

why confuse self-sufficient with "fails to cooperate"?

also, 1 minute = 10 rounds. in a sorcerer's hands thats 20 rounds. which is more than enough time during combat for nearly anything. most combat is over within 10 rounds.

[MaxWilson]

this is the second time ive posted this.

its not that the person is failing to cooperate. it is that the person is self-sufficient. he is stronger with the other buffs you mentioned for sure.

why confuse self-sufficient with "fails to cooperate"?

also, 1 minute = 10 rounds. in a sorcerer's hands thats 20 rounds. which is more than enough time during combat for nearly anything. most combat is over within 10 rounds.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "generally people don't like to rely on someone else for their combo to be complete." It sounded to me like you were hypothesizing that Shield of Faith would not be available. AC 28 is already pretty good already, but if someone casts Shield of Faith on you it can go up to 30. Pretty simple, but it sounded like you were objecting.

The problem with the short duration on Haste isn't that 1 to 2 minutes isn't long enough to keep up as a precautionary measure, so you only get the initiative boost if you know that combat is coming in advance and can prep for it. I guess it's not fair to act like it (the DX check advantage) is useless--it works if you're about to kick down a door with bad guys behind, and it works if you're waiting for the enemy to advance into engagement range (interesting blog post on a related topic: http://www.brettschulte.net/CWBlog/2010/03/05/battle-ranges/). It doesn't do much of anything to help once the first round of combat is over, though.

[Bellberith]

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "generally people don't like to rely on someone else for their combo to be complete." It sounded to me like you were hypothesizing that Shield of Faith would not be available. AC 28 is already pretty good already, but if someone casts Shield of Faith on you it can go up to 30. Pretty simple, but it sounded like you were objecting.

The problem with the short duration on Haste isn't that 1 to 2 minutes isn't long enough to keep up as a precautionary measure, so you only get the initiative boost if you know that combat is coming in advance and can prep for it. I guess it's not fair to act like it (the DX check advantage) is useless--it works if you're about to kick down a door with bad guys behind, and it works if you're waiting for the enemy to advance into engagement range (interesting blog post on a related topic: http://www.brettschulte.net/CWBlog/2010/03/05/battle-ranges/). It doesn't do much of anything to help once the first round of combat is over, though.

Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target’s speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. When the spell ends, the target can’t move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it.

This is the third time ive posted this, this time without the quotes.... i don't know if you are choosing to ignore it or what, but this is a direct quote from the phb.

it is not a dex check advantage. its dex save. which is significantly better.

[MaxWilson]

Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target’s speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. When the spell ends, the target can’t move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it.

This is the third time ive posted this, this time without the quotes.... i don't know if you are choosing to ignore it or what, but this is a direct quote from the phb.

it is not a dex check advantage. its dex save. which is significantly better.

Apologies. Not only did I fail my "remember PHB" check, I also failed my "GITP quote attribution perception" check. At least that explains what you were talking about earlier when you said, "This is the second time I posted this. its not that the person is failing to cooperate..." I did a search on "failing to cooperate" and came up empty, so I was like, "What? It's totally the first time he said that, but okay, whatever." Didn't realize you were talking about a quote attribution above your written text, since my eyes tend to skip over those aside from noting who they are responding to ("Max Wilson" in this case).

It was very helpful that this time you made your argument in regular (non-quoted) text. Thank you.

I acknowledge the point, I was incorrect about Haste. It's more useful than I gave it credit for.

[Khanjar]

I think the one advantage nobody has mentioned yet is Large still gives you 10 foot reach in 5e, right? Away from books atm, but I could have sworn I saw something confirming that was still the case for large bipeds.

I think reach and AoO works a little differently now, but it's still a pretty nice tactical option.

[hymer]

I think the one advantage nobody has mentioned yet is Large still gives you 10 foot reach in 5e, right? Away from books atm, but I could have sworn I saw something confirming that was still the case for large bipeds.

I think reach and AoO works a little differently now, but it's still a pretty nice tactical option.

I've seen nothing to indicate size large gives you better reach. I'd expect to find it in the spell if it did, but even under creature sizes there's no mention of it. Minotaurs and Ogres also have 5 foot reach with their weapons despite being Large.
Even if you did get better reach, it's not a clear bonus; it reduces the tightness of your control zone, letting enemies move more freely next to you without provoking Opportunity Attacks. For some characters it's a great boon to get more reach. For some it's an annoying disadvantage.

[Bellberith]

I think the one advantage nobody has mentioned yet is Large still gives you 10 foot reach in 5e, right? Away from books atm, but I could have sworn I saw something confirming that was still the case for large bipeds.

I think reach and AoO works a little differently now, but it's still a pretty nice tactical option.

huge gives 10ft reach. not large.

[Atmosk]

Ill probably go with Enlarge/Reduce since it seems cooler and has abit more utility.

[Satyrnine]

Haste + crossbow + Eldritch knight = savage?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Im playing a Eldritch knight character and am trying to decide between haste and enlarge/reduce as my level 14 spell. Seems like enlarge would do more damage since ill be attacking three times per round for most of its duration making it do an extra 4d4 against hastes 1d8+2 (I'm using dueling style), but I think there might be something more to consider... thoughts?

I wouldn't worry too much about your damage output, you will already be doing enough damage.

Any damage reduction from Haste is made up with Enlarge by helping you control the battlefield. Shove action with advantage? Yes. Grapple action with advantage? Yes.

[RulesJD]

Haste is the better buff, period. In absolutely every possible way (offensive, defense, utility). +2 AC, Adv Dex SAVES (combos well with a ton of stuff including Shield Master, etc), and of course the extra attack/disengage/etc. You can add GWM to the extra attack, that alone destroys any damage from Enlarge.

This isn't even a competition. The ONLY self-buff that can compete (outside of something like Foresight in the higher tiers) is Bless.

[M Placeholder]

Original Post - What race are you? Im guessing its a medium sized one, that does not have the Powerful Build feature.

Out of curiousity, if you enlarged a goliath, would it have the carrying, lifting and pulling power of a huge creature, RAW?

[SharkForce]

Haste is the better buff, period. In absolutely every possible way (offensive, defense, utility). +2 AC, Adv Dex SAVES (combos well with a ton of stuff including Shield Master, etc), and of course the extra attack/disengage/etc. You can add GWM to the extra attack, that alone destroys any damage from Enlarge.

This isn't even a competition. The ONLY self-buff that can compete (outside of something like Foresight in the higher tiers) is Bless.

enlarge/reduce is not only a damage buff. of course, neither is haste, but there's more to it than just a simple damage equation. enlarge can allow you to grapple larger targets, carry more stuff, be immune to grappling and other status conditions from smaller targets, increase your weight (or the weight of an object iirc), etc. reduce can let you hide behind smaller objects more effectively, fit into narrower spaces without needing to squeeze, and makes you or an object lighter, which can help in some cases, and can allow you to walk through the space of large enemies.

which one is worth more will depend a great deal on what it is that you want to do.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Haste is the better buff, period. In absolutely every possible way (offensive, defense, utility). +2 AC, Adv Dex SAVES (combos well with a ton of stuff including Shield Master, etc), and of course the extra attack/disengage/etc. You can add GWM to the extra attack, that alone destroys any damage from Enlarge.

This isn't even a competition. The ONLY self-buff that can compete (outside of something like Foresight in the higher tiers) is Bless.

Haste is the better direct damage buff but the Fighter already has a nice AC and Dex saves typically only deal HP damage, which at those levels the Fighter has more than enough of.

Enlarge gives advantage to Strength Checks, the Fighter can't normally do that and has no way to emulate that without someone else using their action.

Enlarge, for the Fighter, is the better buff. Haste doesn't give the fighter anything special all that special.

What the Fighter doesn't need: More Damage, More AC, and help with HP. Dashing as a bonus action is nice but not as nice as Advantage on Strength Checks.

A wizard or most other people with the option? Haste. The Fighter? Enlarge.



Original Post - What race are you? Im guessing its a medium sized one, that does not have the Powerful Build feature.

Out of curiousity, if you enlarged a goliath, would it have the carrying, lifting and pulling power of a huge creature, RAW?

I think by RAW the Goliath would count as Huge for the duration of the spell. I see nothing wrong with that either.

I actually hope the Half-Giant gets Enlarge Self 1/short rest as a psionic ability.

[AbyssStalker]

I don't think I could argue with having a couple spell-casters give me both. I think they are both excellent options, although as others have mentioned, Enlarge/Reduce has fun RP potential, so I would probably have to pick that one.

[MeeposFire]

I am not saying haste or enlarge is better all together but one thing to note in that in relative terms fighters gain more for per hit abilities while other warrior types tend to gain more with extra attacks. The reason I say this is that fighters tend to attack more but deal less damage per hit (compare to say a barbarian, bladelock with cha to damage, or a paladin) though only slightly. A fighter will get more from enlarge damage than any other class while the other classes will get more from haste probably in every case. For the fighter haste probably gives overall greater damage but costs the caster slightly more due to higher spell slot and is slightly more dangerous if the fighter loses the buff.

[Zalabim]

It's hardly been mentioned, but it's worth making explicit that Enlarge's main advantage is being a 2nd level spell. The EK doesn't get many spell slots, especially not many 3rd+ level, and there's already some really good 3rd level abjurations, as well as Fireball or Lightning Bolt actually being evocations strong enough to consider having. It's a tough decision.

[NNescio]

Haste is generally a better in-combat buff as it offers both offensive and defensive options. Which it should be, since it's one spell level higher. Enlarge does offer some control options, as it allows an Enlarged fighter (or some other martial type) to grapple better and block more squares . If grappling is not on the table then Haste is an unambiguously better buff due to the extra mobility, AC and advantage on Dex saves (and also damage, for martial types with stronger individual attacks. Which may include fighters even with Extra Attack depending on choice of weapon, feats and stats).

Out of combat, Enlarge can potentially have some nifty uses. The most common is probably as an ersatz Knock, by using it to shrink doors (similar to how Shrink Item was used in 3.5e).

Changing the size/weight of objects and creatures can also cause some really nasty effects (like capsizing a boat) in the hands of a creative player. Note that there are no (initial) size restrictions whatsoever on the ability.

[Mara]

Grab both?

Enlarge is a second level spell, Haste is a 3rd level spell. I think the haste is the better spell, but it's not like that matters if you run out of 3rd and up slots.

[M Placeholder]

You could also get both (well, just enlarge) by having one of your fellow players kill you, then drag you or a piece of you to a temple along with 1000 gold pieces, and have a priest cast Resurrection on you, and come back as a duergar. :smallwink:

[SwordChuck]

It's hardly been mentioned, but it's worth making explicit that Enlarge's main advantage is being a 2nd level spell. The EK doesn't get many spell slots, especially not many 3rd+ level, and there's already some really good 3rd level abjurations, as well as Fireball or Lightning Bolt actually being evocations strong enough to consider having. It's a tough decision.

Neither of those 3rd level spells are particularly good for the EK. Most EK won't focus on Int so enemies will make their saves more often and the EK needs to get the best bang for their action.

Tiny Hut, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, and Wall of Sand .

Especially wall of sand, my god that spell is awesome and it combos quite well with someone getting 3 or 4 attacks.

[Zalabim]

Neither of those 3rd level spells are particularly good for the EK. Most EK won't focus on Int so enemies will make their saves more often and the EK needs to get the best bang for their action.

Tiny Hut, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, and Wall of Sand .

Especially wall of sand, my god that spell is awesome and it combos quite well with someone getting 3 or 4 attacks.

Tiny Hut is a ritual.

Nondetection is interesting, but I don't think I'd ever find a use for it as a PC, let alone use it often enough to justify a permanent spell selection. And it has an expensive material component.

Protection from Energy still isn't very good. I'm looking for things that would make me reconsider casting Haste.

Wall of Sand is very nice for cutting up a battlefield, but I have no idea what having multiple attacks per round has to do with it.

Let's just agree to disagree on the value of one more fireball in a party.

[SwordChuck]

Tiny Hut is a ritual.

Nondetection is interesting, but I don't think I'd ever find a use for it as a PC, let alone use it often enough to justify a permanent spell selection. And it has an expensive material component.

Protection from Energy still isn't very good. I'm looking for things that would make me reconsider casting Haste.

Wall of Sand is very nice for cutting up a battlefield, but I have no idea what having multiple attacks per round has to do with it.

Let's just agree to disagree on the value of one more fireball in a party.

Ritual just means you can cast it as a ritual, not that you can't cast it as a non-ritual. It has a casting time of 1 minute after all. It can be abused very nicely.

Keeping multiple enemies (or one enemy) blinded for no save if what you use wall of sand for. You can move between attacks and push creatures (shove) into the wall. Because you have a lot of attacks (and war magic) it is a very potent spell when you put your mind to it.

Fireball (3rd level) and Lightning bolt won't typically hit a lot of creatures. 8d6 damage for fireball is nice but in the low side for when you get it... 28 damage to a target at mid to high levels is less than what you can do for free. Fighters don't need damage. They are all about damage from their core class.

Weapon damage (dueling style), level 12 ish: 1d8 + 5 + 2 (×3) = 34.5 at-will

Buff and utility spells are the way to go. Yeah shooting off a fireball may be fun/interesting but it is not optimal one bit. Plus spells like fireball and Lightning bolt are one shot do or die spells. Spells like Wall of Sand and the others can be around for much longer. Wall of Sand + Tunnel Fighter Eldritch Knight + Sentinel + (Polearm Master if tunnel fighter is banned) would be such a great combo. You could control the battlefield while beating the hell out of the enemy.

The Fighter doesn't need help doing damage. Taking spells that offer saves to an enemy, especially ones that just deal damage is not a good idea.

Also with my free learn a spell I would think about taking magic weapon. +1 attack and damage as a bonus action is nice. But to be able to ignore resistances and immunities is the icing on the cake.

[Dalebert]

(Haste) is slightly more dangerous if the fighter loses the buff.

I almost forgot about this. That's big. If you choose Haste, make sure you're VERY good at concentration checks, e.g. a high con save and War Caster. Losing an entire turn is the suck.

I tend to agree that Haste is the all-around better buff in that it offers more damage, better defense, and battlefield mobility. It will be consistently helpful.

Enlarge/Reduce will have some very nice uses contextually. It will raise your damage and if you're at all worried about being grappled, it will help tremendously with that. It's also much safer to use in case concentration is lost.


Fireball (3rd level) and Lightning bolt won't typically hit a lot of creatures. 8d6 damage for fireball is nice but in the low side for when you get it... 28 damage to a target at mid to high levels is less than what you can do for free. Fighters don't need damage. They are all about damage from their core class.

I am mostly in agreement. These spells can be contextually excellent. If you have the drop on a lot of creatures clustered together or in a line for lightning bolt (more rare in my experience, but maybe if you can channel them down a 5' corridor), then that damage is being applied to each of them. Even if about half of them save, 14 damage to a lot is a great way to kick off a fight. Yes, you can do 28 dmg fighting... to ONE creature in a round. This is 4x, 6x, ??? depending on how many creatures are in the area.

That said, do you have a wizard, sorcerer, or fiend lock in the party? If so, leave this to them. If you're having to fill that roll, it might be worth having.

[Tanarii]

IMO Haste is too dangerous a self-buff for a front line fighter, even one with Con save prof and a decent Con. Especially one with three attacks a round already.

[AbyssStalker]

I do love how Enlarge doesn't grant much disadvantages due to increased size such as advantage on ranged attacks, now I can Enlarge barns and laugh when people fail to hit the broad side of them.

Plus, who doesn't want to Reduce an anvil and throw it off a cliff at your enemies.

[SwordChuck]

I almost forgot about this. That's big. If you choose Haste, make sure you're VERY good at concentration checks, e.g. a high con save and War Caster. Losing an entire turn is the suck.

I tend to agree that Haste is the all-around better buff in that it offers more damage, better defense, and battlefield mobility. It will be consistently helpful.

Enlarge/Reduce will have some very nice uses contextually. It will raise your damage and if you're at all worried about being grappled, it will help tremendously with that. It's also much safer to use in case concentration is lost.



I am mostly in agreement. These spells can be contextually excellent. If you have the drop on a lot of creatures clustered together or in a line for lightning bolt (more rare in my experience, but maybe if you can channel them down a 5' corridor), then that damage is being applied to each of them. Even if about half of them save, 14 damage to a lot is a great way to kick off a fight. Yes, you can do 28 dmg fighting... to ONE creature in a round. This is 4x, 6x, ??? depending on how many creatures are in the area.

That said, do you have a wizard, sorcerer, or fiend lock in the party? If so, leave this to them. If you're having to fill that roll, it might be worth having.


Even if you don't have another caster in the party the EK shouldn't try to be something it isn't.

Instead of barely hurting a few enemies, you can kill one or two straight out of the gate. That 28 damage is on a failed save, so realistically it's more like 14 damage when they pass.

1d8+5+2+(1 magic weapon or 1d4 enlarged) = 12 - 13.5 (and possible crit). One attack deals just about as much damage as that fireball will on a passed save.

If the EK is your primary caster then you have problems haha.

[Blood of Gaea]

Haste is the stronger buff, however letting it drop can actually killed people killed. So go with Enlarge/Reduce if you don't have a decent CON save.

[RulesJD]

Haste is the stronger buff, however letting it drop can actually killed people killed. So go with Enlarge/Reduce if you don't have a decent CON save.

If you're an EK with a bad Con save, you have bigger issues.

Again, there simply isn't any competition to which is a better spell. An extra 3d4 (7.5) for a normal attack routine? That is absolutely pathetic compared to the average EK possibility of 2d6+13 (21) (GWM greatsword) or even a regular 2d6+3 (11 with GWF) extra attack or 1d8+5 (9.5 with dueling). Tack on an EXTRA +2 AC and a speed of 50-60ft = there literally isn't an issue.

Who cares about grappling 1 size larger target? If you're going to be a grappler you pretty much have to take the grappler feat so who cares? Not to mention, Haste lets you have another grappling attempt anyways. Oh and better yet? Haste + Grapple = movement of 30ft which you still don't get with Enlarge. So even for grappling Haste is going to be more useful for battlefield control. Plus you can grapple + disengage ON THE SAME TURN to pull enemies in and out of combat without eating AoOs, something Enlarge doesn't give you and actually makes worse because of your increased base size.

And you want to say Enlarge helps you because you can fit through smaller spaces without squeezing?? 1. That rarely, RARELY ever comes up in a game. More importantly, Haste negates the restricted movement with the double speed boost + extra movement if wanted.

How about this: Load up roll20, build your level whatever EK with Enlarge, I'll build mine with Haste. I will beat you every time.

[AbyssStalker]

Meh, I would not say haste is outright better in any way, how about this, which one will help you more against a marilith, you using haste on yourself and then getting your ass knocked into oblivion, or you using Reduce and dramatically lowering her damage output.

[SwordChuck]

Haste is the stronger buff, however letting it drop can actually killed people killed. So go with Enlarge/Reduce if you don't have a decent CON save.

For a fighter haste isn't really the stronger buff. In general it is but specifically the fighter doesn't gain anything from haste as good as advantage to strength checks.

For other classes, yes haste wins out, but for the Fighter... Not so much.

Even the barbarian does better with haste as they can already get advantage with strength checks.

×××edit

Shove is a strength check. Shoving prone to be specific.

[SharkForce]

i don't think i've ever seen a build that took grappler as a feat (if you can grapple, you can and probably should also shove for advantage anyways; restraining a single enemy which is already unable to move is generally not worth restraining yourself; creatures one size larger do not automatically succeed on escapes in the first place). not even grapple-centric builds. but if we go with what was the probable intent (the grappler feat lets you grapple larger-than-usual creatures by one size category as the third ability, ie making the third ability actually do anything at all), you'll still be able to stack enlarge and grappler, thus making enlarge still good for a grapple build.

not that being good at grappling remotely requires a feat investment at all. have a decent strength modifier and be proficient in athletics, you're already better than the majority of the creatures in the monster manual that are remotely level-appropriate. i think you pretty much have to worry about competing with gladiators and giant apes for a while, then you leave them in the dust.

and the problem with squeezing isn't the movement penalty. it's the fact that you're taking disadvantage on attacks and dex saves, and the enemy has advantage on attacking you. you've never had that problem? well, obviously the kobolds in your world are too stupid to dig their homes small enough that large creatures can't get in and medium creatures will be at a disadvantage, and the (semi)-giant ants dig human-sized tunnels for no reason. i've never played with a DM that assumed their monsters were braindead morons incapable of realizing they're not the same size as humans, but i suppose different strokes for different folks and all that.

(as to your hasted fighter winning "every time", all it takes is a single failed save and your hasted fighter lost a full round of damage at the minimum).

[MaxWilson]

How about this: Load up roll20, build your level whatever EK with Enlarge, I'll build mine with Haste. I will beat you every time.

I'd like to see that happen. I predict that the Enlarged EK will stomp the Hasted guy by a huge margin. Especially if he leads with Dispel Magic.


and the problem with squeezing isn't the movement penalty. it's the fact that you're taking disadvantage on attacks and dex saves, and the enemy has advantage on attacking you. you've never had that problem? well, obviously the kobolds in your world are too stupid to dig their homes small enough that large creatures can't get in and medium creatures will be at a disadvantage, and the (semi)-giant ants dig human-sized tunnels for no reason. i've never played with a DM that assumed their monsters were braindead morons incapable of realizing they're not the same size as humans, but i suppose different strokes for different folks and all that.

In this specific example, though, kobolds are the same size as humans, for purposes of PHB 192 "Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces." They take up a 5' square, just like humans do, and any space too cramped for a human to fight effectively in is also too cramped for a kobold or Reduced human to fight in. Plus, Enlarge/Reduce only lasts for a minute. Reduce just isn't useful in this scenario.

[SharkForce]

I'd like to see that happen. I predict that the Enlarged EK will stomp the Hasted guy by a huge margin. Especially if he leads with Dispel Magic.



In this specific example, though, kobolds are the same size as humans, for purposes of PHB 192 "Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces." They take up a 5' square, just like humans do, and any space too cramped for a human to fight effectively in is also too cramped for a kobold or Reduced human to fight in. Plus, Enlarge/Reduce only lasts for a minute. Reduce just isn't useful in this scenario.

the space entries in the MM don't include height. that doesn't mean you don't have to squeeze to fit into a tunnel that is 3 feet high.

and in my experience, 1 minute is pretty long for a fight to last. yeah, it's not amazing for exploration. but if you're stuck fighting in tight spaces, it's a life-saver.

[MaxWilson]

the space entries in the MM don't include height. that doesn't mean you don't have to squeeze to fit into a tunnel that is 3 feet high.

Okay, that's a pretty reasonable ruling.

[RulesJD]

i don't think i've ever seen a build that took grappler as a feat (if you can grapple, you can and probably should also shove for advantage anyways; restraining a single enemy which is already unable to move is generally not worth restraining yourself; creatures one size larger do not automatically succeed on escapes in the first place). not even grapple-centric builds. but if we go with what was the probable intent (the grappler feat lets you grapple larger-than-usual creatures by one size category as the third ability, ie making the third ability actually do anything at all), you'll still be able to stack enlarge and grappler, thus making enlarge still good for a grapple build.

not that being good at grappling remotely requires a feat investment at all. have a decent strength modifier and be proficient in athletics, you're already better than the majority of the creatures in the monster manual that are remotely level-appropriate. i think you pretty much have to worry about competing with gladiators and giant apes for a while, then you leave them in the dust.

and the problem with squeezing isn't the movement penalty. it's the fact that you're taking disadvantage on attacks and dex saves, and the enemy has advantage on attacking you. you've never had that problem? well, obviously the kobolds in your world are too stupid to dig their homes small enough that large creatures can't get in and medium creatures will be at a disadvantage, and the (semi)-giant ants dig human-sized tunnels for no reason. i've never played with a DM that assumed their monsters were braindead morons incapable of realizing they're not the same size as humans, but i suppose different strokes for different folks and all that.

(as to your hasted fighter winning "every time", all it takes is a single failed save and your hasted fighter lost a full round of damage at the minimum).

1. Concentration: At minimum +8 to Con saves (16 Con + 5 proficiency minimum to get haste at level 13). In reality, I would bump Con with an ASI to make it an even +9 to concentration saves. Congrats, it's impossible to fail a concentration save for anything under 21 damage. Oh, and 2 indomitable for the fight. Not even remotely worried about it.

2. Dispel Magic: Decent tactic, although if he leads with that he'd likely have to sacrifice his Action Surge to make it worth it. Haste is still better even with this. Why? Because Haste lets me be 35ft away after an attack routine with the disengage ability. So he can Dispel and still has to burn his Action/Action surge to get close enough to even attack in the first place. I can do a full attack routine, Action surge again, bonus action for whatever, and then disengage and be 35ft away.

So try again. Haste is simply too good of a buff.

3. Defensive Enlarge adds nothing to it besides advantage on Str based checks/saves that happen pretty rarely. I'll take advantage on Dex saves all day long. Then throw in +2 AC for guaranteed better AC.

4. Kiting. If you want to let lame tactics in, Haste + Archery + Sharpshooter = literally invincible against your Enlarged self.

[SwordChuck]

1. Concentration: At minimum +8 to Con saves (16 Con + 5 proficiency minimum to get haste at level 13). In reality, I would bump Con with an ASI to make it an even +9 to concentration saves. Congrats, it's impossible to fail a concentration save for anything under 21 damage. Oh, and 2 indomitable for the fight. Not even remotely worried about it.

2. Dispel Magic: Decent tactic, although if he leads with that he'd likely have to sacrifice his Action Surge to make it worth it. Haste is still better even with this. Why? Because Haste lets me be 35ft away after an attack routine with the disengage ability. So he can Dispel and still has to burn his Action/Action surge to get close enough to even attack in the first place. I can do a full attack routine, Action surge again, bonus action for whatever, and then disengage and be 35ft away.

So try again. Haste is simply too good of a buff.

3. Defensive Enlarge adds nothing to it besides advantage on Str based checks/saves that happen pretty rarely. I'll take advantage on Dex saves all day long. Then throw in +2 AC for guaranteed better AC.

4. Kiting. If you want to let lame tactics in, Haste + Archery + Sharpshooter = literally invincible against your Enlarged self.

Good thing 5e is a PvP game!

But seriously, enemies are more likely to try and shove/grapple the fighter than people give them credit for. Keeping yourself from beingnprone (and giving advantage to melee attackers) is a really really really good defensive ability.

[MaxWilson]

2. Dispel Magic: Decent tactic, although if he leads with that he'd likely have to sacrifice his Action Surge to make it worth it. Haste is still better even with this. Why? Because Haste lets me be 35ft away after an attack routine with the disengage ability. So he can Dispel and still has to burn his Action/Action surge to get close enough to even attack in the first place. I can do a full attack routine, Action surge again, bonus action for whatever, and then disengage and be 35ft away.

So try again. Haste is simply too good of a buff.

I don't think you understand. Haste is terrible for your action economy. Let me break this down for you. Let's say you win initiative.

Hastey McFast round 1: Haste, make bonus action attack because Improved War Magic, and let's say you Action Surge for four more attacks and then Disengage to 35'.

Large Bruno round 1: Dispel Magic. (Hastey can Counterspell, and then Large Bruno Counterspells the Counterspell, no net effect.) Make one bonus action attack because Improved War magic, Action Surge to Enlarge self. Move 30' closer, is now 5' away from Hastey.

Hastey McFast round 2: stand there lethargically doing nothing.

Large Bruno round 2: Grapple/Prone RulesJD and attack twice more at advantage for extra damage, Action Surge for four more attacks at advantage for extra damage.

Hastey just made five attacks in exchange for taking six attacks at advantage with extra damage, and now all of his attacks will be at disadvantage until he can break free. What good did his Disengage do him? You would have been unequivocally better off just not casting Haste in the first place.


3. Defensive Enlarge adds nothing to it besides advantage on Str based checks/saves that happen pretty rarely. I'll take advantage on Dex saves all day long. Then throw in +2 AC for guaranteed better AC.

Defensive Enlarge lets you win Athletics checks to keep the other guy prone and at disadvantage to attack. The usual way of breaking free involves Pushing the grappler away, but Large Bruno is now at advantage on those checks, wins ties, and has a 69% chance of winning them. Not a good scenario for Hastey McFast.

[RulesJD]

I don't think you understand. Haste is terrible for your action economy. Let me break this down for you. Let's say you win initiative.

Hastey McFast round 1: Haste, make bonus action attack because Improved War Magic, and let's say you Action Surge for four more attacks and then Disengage to 35'.

Large Bruno round 1: Dispel Magic. (Hastey can Counterspell, and then Large Bruno Counterspells the Counterspell, no net effect.) Make one bonus action attack because Improved War magic, Action Surge to Enlarge self. Move 30' closer, is now 5' away from Hastey.

Hastey McFast round 2: stand there lethargically doing nothing.

Large Bruno round 2: Grapple/Prone RulesJD and attack twice more at advantage for extra damage, Action Surge for four more attacks at advantage for extra damage.

Hastey just made five attacks in exchange for taking six attacks at advantage with extra damage, and now all of his attacks will be at disadvantage until he can break free. What good did his Disengage do him? You would have been unequivocally better off just not casting Haste in the first place.



Defensive Enlarge lets you win Athletics checks to keep the other guy prone and at disadvantage to attack. The usual way of breaking free involves Pushing the grappler away, but Large Bruno is now at advantage on those checks, wins ties, and has a 69% chance of winning them. Not a good scenario for Hastey McFast.

Since you want to assume a lot of prep and enemy knowledge:

McFasty casts Haste first round, runs away 60 + Dash 60 + Haste 60 + Action Surge 60 = 240ft. Congrats, you're never going to get close enough to Dispel. Congrats, you've lost. All turns I'll have one more full attack and +2 AC so I'll get hit a lot less often.

[SharkForce]

Since you want to assume a lot of prep and enemy knowledge:

McFasty casts Haste first round, runs away 60 + Dash 60 + Haste 60 + Action Surge 60 = 240ft. Congrats, you're never going to get close enough to Dispel. Congrats, you've lost. All turns I'll have one more full attack and +2 AC so I'll get hit a lot less often.

or you could just wait for haste to run out from full cover, and the fight begins again 1 minute later with McFasty down a level 3 spell slot. as has been noted, enlarge definitely has the cost advantage over haste.

edit: not that i'm entirely clear on how exactly being good at grappling (something most strength-based fighters should be good at, and we've already established the motivations for choosing enlarge) or having counterspell (something every single eldritch knight who can cast level 3 spells should invest in on account of there's a dire shortage of good abjuration spells to choose) implies a lot of prep and enemy knowledge.

[MeeposFire]

ONe thing I am not sure anybody has considered yet is what is the spell load out we have already? If we already have a lot of good 2nd or 3rd level spells that may influence your choice. If you excellent 3rd level spells but not much for your 2nd level slots enlarge may be a good choice and the reverse could be true too.

Also as a general idea it isn't a completely terrible idea to have multiple options for your concentration spell especially as an EK. An EK has few spells per day and concentration spells give you good bang for your buck and using both your 2nd and 3rd level spells on these spells can give you a good concentration spell for every major combat (saving your 1st level spells for things like shield to keep yourself going). If you only have haste for example it would take a while to get that spell and you get so few uses of it a day that there will be a number of fights where you won't have a buff up. If you have both you can choose the best option when it is best.

[eastmabl]

Since you want to assume a lot of prep and enemy knowledge:

McFasty casts Haste first round, runs away 60 + Dash 60 + Haste 60 + Action Surge 60 = 240ft. Congrats, you're never going to get close enough to Dispel. Congrats, you've lost. All turns I'll have one more full attack and +2 AC so I'll get hit a lot less often.

This is why vacuum PVP is a game of paper rock scissors.

First, Large Bruno looks around and notices that McFasty looks like an ant on the horizon 240+ feet away. Out of short range of McFasty's long bow, Large Bruno goes in the opposite direction, using his dash action to get 60 feet away each round.

Then, McFasty has some options while the ticking clock of the haste spell goes on.

- McFasty can make attacks at disadvantage for until Bruno's out of range. Assuming combatants start 30 feet apart, Bruno will be out of range in six rounds.
- McFasty can give some amount of chase, remaining in the outer range of his bow and make his attacks at disadvantage for the length of the spell.
- McFasty can give full chase and get within 150 feet of Bruno. Unfortunately, this distance allows Bruno to move 30 feet back towards McFasty on his turn to unleash the dispel magic spell.

Alternatively, knowing that McFasty cast haste, Bruno starts moving 30 feet towards him before doing the Macarena (Dodge action). Regardless of proximity, all attacks are going to be made at Disadvantage. Since Bruno has full plate and a shield (AC 20) along with the Defense fighting style (AC 21), this gives him an effective AC 26 when factoring in disadvantage. He weathers the storm of your minute of haste before moving with all of his spells.

[AbyssStalker]

Yeah, I gotta agree that considering this in a PvP structured manner isn't a very constructive to the task at hand, I would probably have to say that it just seems like you are more likely to find easier usage of Enlarge/Reduce due to it having little chance of backfiring in any way (and buff/debuff versatility), while Haste probably seems better for a specialized build or party due to possibly rendering you in-active at a bad moment, but is still a solid spell for most combats.

Needless to say, just try to make sure the Haste caster has a good Con save, or is safe from most attacks.

[Tanarii]

1. Concentration: At minimum +8 to Con saves (16 Con + 5 proficiency minimum to get haste at level 13). In reality, I would bump Con with an ASI to make it an even +9 to concentration saves. Congrats, it's impossible to fail a concentration save for anything under 21 damage. Oh, and 2 indomitable for the fight. Not even remotely worried about it.Two points:

1) Why is your Con so high on an EK, and why are you using an ASI on it? You already need to pump Str and Int, and probably get some feats to boot. Or are you specifying an Int-dump GISH build?

2) That's fine for PvP against another fighter. But the likelihood of suffering 21+ points of damage at level 13 against a Nova class in PvP is higher. And, more to the point, this is DnD, which isn't designed for PvP. As a front-line fighter against monsters, it's considerably higher. Losing concentration isn't something an EK can just write off in actual play, especially when the cost is so high in the case of Haste.

[RulesJD]

Two points:

1) Why is your Con so high on an EK, and why are you using an ASI on it? You already need to pump Str and Int, and probably get some feats to boot. Or are you specifying an Int-dump GISH build?

2) That's fine for PvP against another fighter. But the likelihood of suffering 21+ points of damage at level 13 against a Nova class in PvP is higher. And, more to the point, this is DnD, which isn't designed for PvP. As a front-line fighter against monsters, it's considerably higher. Losing concentration isn't something an EK can just write off in actual play, especially when the cost is so high in the case of Haste.

1. Um, why is it not on yours? Int is fairly useless on an EK. Regardless, even with starting stats, you can get 16/16/14/10/8/8. Truthfully, the EK is a fairly pointless class given that, mechanically, you're almost always going to be more effective just being a Paladin if you want to go gish. But this thread is focusing on EK so there you go.

2. Far less likely to lose concentration against monsters. Outside of a few specialized attacks (that are almost all Dex or Con save based which Haste will be infinitely better at) most monsters do damage through multiattack for 21 or less damage.

Also, losing Haste means you can't take actions, but ambiguous whether that says you can't take reactions, aka Shield.

[Tanarii]

Int is fairly useless on an EK.:smalleek:

If that's your point of view, there's no way we can have any productive discussion about anything involving EKs. Never mind then.

[eastmabl]

:smalleek:

If that's your point of view, there's no way we can have any productive discussion about anything involving EKs. Never mind then.

Without minimum casting stats like in 3.x and having no need to prepare spells, the only benefit of Int to EK is to his spell attacks and spell save DCs. If you avoid such spell effects (see: the whole of the Abjuration school, many buff spells), you do away with your need for Int.

There's certainly a valid build for a Archer EK that relies on Int and ranged evocations. However, for a melee-oriented EK, you go from kind of MAD (Str, Con) to MADder (Str, Con, Int) by focusing on your spell casting.

I believe that this is point at which our Rules Esquire is trying to get.

[RulesJD]

Without minimum casting stats like in 3.x and having no need to prepare spells, the only benefit of Int to EK is to his spell attacks and spell save DCs. If you avoid such spell effects (see: the whole of the Abjuration school, many buff spells), you do away with your need for Int.

There's certainly a valid build for a Archer EK that relies on Int and ranged evocations. However, for a melee-oriented EK, you go from kind of MAD (Str, Con) to MADder (Str, Con, Int) by focusing on your spell casting.

I believe that this is point at which our Rules Esquire is trying to get.

http://giphy.com/gifs/applause-the-rock-amazed-NnGGHE0muVqpO

Also, yes, that's exactly my point. Sure there are a few spells for a gish that would be helpful (Hold Person comes to mind) but by and large, the EK spells that are most useful are not at all dependent on their Int. Ironically, the two spells being discussed right now are the same regardless of Int score.

[AbyssStalker]

It probably would have been better to just say that EKs are not useless without Int, or that they are nearly as reliable as normal with an Int deficit, which is true, but I would never call the main spell-casting ability of a class nearly useless.

[MeeposFire]

It probably would have been better to just say that EKs are not useless without Int, or that they are nearly as reliable as normal with an Int deficit, which is true, but I would never call the main spell-casting ability of a class nearly useless.

Useless is too strong but honestly unless you have some crazy nice ability rolls I would say that boosting int is just not worth it for an EK. Int only matters typically if you are going to attack with a spell and for the most part why would you want to do that? Except for the weapon based cantrips (which do not use primary casting stat to hit and even green flame blade does not need a high int since it is only going to affect a tiny bit of the damage which is not worth worrying about most of its damage is baked into the weapon attack and fire damage dice) using a cantrip is a damage losing venture or come close to even venture at best. That is a lot of ASIs to spend just to get at best close to even with what you could already do with your weapons alone.

The only way to really get ahead is to us 3-4 level attack spells but even then is it worth putting your toughness down the drain just to improve attacks that you can use just a few times a day? I really don't see it being a worth while trade when you can get some very sweet spells (such as haste, enlarge, counterspell, etc) that also have very useful tactical purposes that do not require you to put ASIs into int and thus reduce potentially your con score OR even worse prevent you from taking some extra feats that can help you.

[SharkForce]

funny enough, both counterspell and dispel magic benefit greatly from int.

[Tanarii]

Str/Int using Weapon attacks close in and spells for ranged & AoE attacks is a perfectly good and even clearly intended way to build an EK.

GISH (melee or archers) & Int-dumping as a valid build certainly doesn't invalidate Int as the default secondary EK stat.

[MeeposFire]

funny enough, both counterspell and dispel magic benefit greatly from int.

Meh subb them out for whatever else you like you can still find plenty of fine options if you want.

[MaxWilson]

http://giphy.com/gifs/applause-the-rock-amazed-NnGGHE0muVqpO

Also, yes, that's exactly my point. Sure there are a few spells for a gish that would be helpful (Hold Person comes to mind) but by and large, the EK spells that are most useful are not at all dependent on their Int. Ironically, the two spells being discussed right now are the same regardless of Int score.

The Eldritch Knight also has a whole class feature (Eldritch Strike) designed to mitigate the effects of low Int by imposing disadvantage on enemy saves. Boosting Int on an Eldritch Knight is almost entirely redundant, especially with how infrequently you're going to be casting any save-or-lose spells.

If you're worried about effective Counterspelling, Lucky will help you out far more than Int +2.

[SharkForce]

Meh subb them out for whatever else you like you can still find plenty of fine options if you want.

of course. with all those *other* useful abjuration/evocation spells that don't rely on intelligence that you could cast instead. you know. the ones i can't think of because i'm pretty sure they don't exist. those ones.

[MeeposFire]

of course. with all those *other* useful abjuration/evocation spells that don't rely on intelligence that you could cast instead. you know. the ones i can't think of because i'm pretty sure they don't exist. those ones.

What like shield? Even if those spells do not exist are you seriously going to tell me that you cannot find enough spells in total to use up a messily 3 times a day for your second level spells and 3x a day for your 3rd level spells (I assume that 1st level is more than easy enough just from shield alone and 4th is just one time a day so I am not worried about that either)? With the amount of spells an EK has he does not have to have a bunch of options just enough to use those slots. The EK is not a replacement for a wizard so are you trying to say that a standard EK should boost his int and use a bunch of spells that use int rather than uses those ASIs for feats or other stat boosts?

As a sort of related question does absorb elements use your casting stat heavily and what level is it as I don't have that book and that might be a decent option (assuming of course that it is abjuration).

[CaptAl]

Absorb elements is 1st level. Competes with shield for slots. Doesn't use your casting stat. Not sure if its abj or not as I'm afb.

[Tanarii]

The entire reason EKs get Evocation spells is stated right in their description: to deal damage to many foes at once, extending the fighter's reach in combat. I find it weird that so many have locked themselves into 'evocation/Int sucks' mode. I'll just chalk it up to specialization optimization mentality I guess. EKs are designed to be flexible, not specialists: AoE/ranged blasters as well as melee GISH.


The Eldritch Knight also has a whole class feature (Eldritch Strike) designed to mitigate the effects of low Int by imposing disadvantage on enemy saves. Boosting Int on an Eldritch Knight is almost entirely redundant, especially with how infrequently you're going to be casting any save-or-lose spells.That feature is your anti-Evasion feature, negating their advantage, and against high Dex creatures. It also is designed to work well with AoE and Action Surge. You smack multiple high-Dex creatures or ones with Evasion with attacks, Surge, then AoE them all.

You may be infrequently casting Save-or-suck spells, but you can be casting plenty of save-or-half damage AoEs. Burning Hands (at low levels), Thunderwave, Shatter, Fireball and Icestorm are fantastic baseline-EK spells.

[SharkForce]

What like shield? Even if those spells do not exist are you seriously going to tell me that you cannot find enough spells in total to use up a messily 3 times a day for your second level spells and 3x a day for your 3rd level spells (I assume that 1st level is more than easy enough just from shield alone and 4th is just one time a day so I am not worried about that either)? With the amount of spells an EK has he does not have to have a bunch of options just enough to use those slots. The EK is not a replacement for a wizard so are you trying to say that a standard EK should boost his int and use a bunch of spells that use int rather than uses those ASIs for feats or other stat boosts?

As a sort of related question does absorb elements use your casting stat heavily and what level is it as I don't have that book and that might be a decent option (assuming of course that it is abjuration).

that isn't a good reason to ignore two of the best options for spells an eldritch knight can actually take without using up their extremely precious freely chosen spells. you may not need counterspell or dispel magic in every fight, but when you do need it there isn't much else that would be better to have.

you don't have a lot of spell slots, but you also don't have a lot of spells known. you can't afford to replace quality of spells known with quantity, so you'd best pick the best ones you can get. counterspell and dispel magic both have some value with low or moderate int... but they also both get a lot better with high int. just because there are good spell options that work with low int doesn't mean there aren't better ones that work with high int, or ones that work well with low int but better with high int.

[MaxWilson]

The entire reason EKs get Evocation spells is stated right in their description: to deal damage to many foes at once, extending the fighter's reach in combat. I find it weird that so many have locked themselves into 'evocation/Int sucks' mode. I'll just chalk it up to specialization optimization mentality I guess. EKs are designed to be flexible, not specialists: AoE/ranged blasters as well as melee GISH.

"Many foes at once" usually means hordes of low-ish level creatures (CR 1/8 to CR 5), and even a basic Int 12 Fireball will roast those. (By the time you get Fireball, your prof bonus is +5 and your spell DC is 14.)


That feature is your anti-Evasion feature, negating their advantage, and against high Dex creatures. It also is designed to work well with AoE and Action Surge. You smack multiple high-Dex creatures or ones with Evasion with attacks, Surge, then AoE them all.

You may be infrequently casting Save-or-suck spells, but you can be casting plenty of save-or-half damage AoEs. Burning Hands (at low levels), Thunderwave, Shatter, Fireball and Icestorm are fantastic baseline-EK spells.

Playstyle difference I guess. I go for efficiency over performance--my goal is to kill the enemy as cheaply and risk-free as possible. I'd rather win the fight in 5 rounds, spending one spell (like Blur or Expeditious Retreat) rather than in two rounds spending two spells (Shatter x2). The problem Evocation spells have from an EK perspective is twofold: he gets them later than a wizard, so they tend to be weak; and he has strong weapon attacks, so the opportunity cost of casting spells is high. Spending an ASI on Int at 13th level just so you can raise the average damage of your Burning Hands against orcs from 8.67 to 8.92, and Fireballs from 23.1 to 23.8, is very questionable from an efficiency standpoint. You simply don't have the spell slots to make that investment pay off.

(I should note that I'm biased towards Eldritch Knights as Sharpshooter Archers BTW, because those are the best kind of Eldritch Knight. If you're a melee EK who nevertheless relies a lot on ranged cantrips, Int has more chances to pay off for you.)

[RulesJD]

"Many foes at once" usually means hordes of low-ish level creatures (CR 1/8 to CR 5), and even a basic Int 12 Fireball will roast those. (By the time you get Fireball, your prof bonus is +5 and your spell DC is 14.)



Playstyle difference I guess. I go for efficiency over performance--my goal is to kill the enemy as cheaply and risk-free as possible. I'd rather win the fight in 5 rounds, spending one spell (like Blur or Expeditious Retreat) rather than in two rounds spending two spells (Shatter x2). The problem Evocation spells have from an EK perspective is twofold: he gets them later than a wizard, so they tend to be weak; and he has strong weapon attacks, so the opportunity cost of casting spells is high. Spending an ASI on Int at 13th level just so you can raise the average damage of your Burning Hands against orcs from 8.67 to 8.92, and Fireballs from 23.1 to 23.8, is very questionable from an efficiency standpoint. You simply don't have the spell slots to make that investment pay off.

(I should note that I'm biased towards Eldritch Knights as Sharpshooter Archers BTW, because those are the best kind of Eldritch Knight. If you're a melee EK who nevertheless relies a lot on ranged cantrips, Int has more chances to pay off for you.)

Been looking at building out a Ranger/Fighter ultimate archer, any particular reason you like EK over BM for archers?

[MaxWilson]

Been looking at building out a Ranger/Fighter ultimate archer, any particular reason you like EK over BM for archers?

Mostly for the enhanced defenses: Absorb Elements, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Blur, Counterspell all add up to a fighter who is far more resilient than a Battlemaster. Also it is nice to have the option of turning your longbow magic (Magic Weapon) both for the extra +1 or +2 and for penetrating weapon immunity. And I do like the Weapon Bond fluff of being able to summon your weapon with a bonus action.

But the single biggest reason is the defenses. Expeditious Retreat alone turns certain kinds of fights into "don't bother rolling, you just kill them, let's move on" victories. Not all fights, not in all terrain, but other PCs will handle those other terrains if you handle open terrain and closed terrain with chokepoints. Even in those wrong terrains where archery doesn't work well (broken terrain with multiple channels and no chokepoints; labyrinths) Booming Blade + War Magic + Expeditious Retreat ensures that you are extremely effective in melee.

[RulesJD]

Mostly for the enhanced defenses: Absorb Elements, Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Blur, Counterspell all add up to a fighter who is far more resilient than a Battlemaster. Also it is nice to have the option of turning your longbow magic (Magic Weapon) both for the extra +1 or +2 and for penetrating weapon immunity. And I do like the Weapon Bond fluff of being able to summon your weapon with a bonus action.

But the single biggest reason is the defenses. Expeditious Retreat alone turns certain kinds of fights into "don't bother rolling, you just kill them, let's move on" victories. Not all fights, not in all terrain, but other PCs will handle those other terrains if you handle open terrain and closed terrain with chokepoints. Even in those wrong terrains where archery doesn't work well (broken terrain with multiple channels and no chokepoints; labyrinths) Booming Blade + War Magic + Expeditious Retreat ensures that you are extremely effective in melee.

Fair. I tend to be more offensive minded and will likely rely on the natural distance (archer afterall) for most of my defenses. Wanted to pick up 3 levels of Ranger for Hunter's Mark/Horde Breaker. Ultimately might just be better off with a War Cleric dip for Divine Favor/Bonus Attack +10 to hit combo with Sharpshooter.

Should note that it seems mechanically stronger to be a BM archer due to the additional damage/effects of the maneuver dice that work with ranged weapons (aka Precision Strike + Sharpshooter). 1 or 2 level dip into something like Cleric/Wizard/Sorc to get some level 1 buff spells seems to basically grant EK benefits while still having all the BM goodness. That would delay the all powerful third attack of course.

[Tanarii]

(I should note that I'm biased towards Eldritch Knights as Sharpshooter Archers BTW, because those are the best kind of Eldritch Knight. If you're a melee EK who nevertheless relies a lot on ranged cantrips, Int has more chances to pay off for you.)Ranged EKs are a strong build, especially since they can use the physical attack/cantrip ability most effectively. So are pure GISH just buffing up. But so is a classic 'Death Knight' EK using spells for ranged attacks and AoEs. Also, AoE damage tends to outweigh physical damage, as soon as you hit 2-3 targets (depending on spell, number of physical attacks, and fighting style the EK uses). Although a DM allowing GWM feat changes that pretty drastically in the case of two-handed weapon EKs.

[MaxWilson]

Ranged EKs are a strong build, especially since they can use the physical attack/cantrip ability most effectively. So are pure GISH just buffing up. But so is a classic 'Death Knight' EK using spells for ranged attacks and AoEs. Also, AoE damage tends to outweigh physical damage, as soon as you hit 2-3 targets (depending on spell, number of physical attacks, and fighting style the EK uses). Although a DM allowing GWM feat changes that pretty drastically in the case of two-handed weapon EKs.

Not boosting Int doesn't prevent you from using AoEs. It just makes those AoE's 2.5% less effective. I'd far rather spend that ASI on Lucky, or Mobile, or Resilient (Wis), or Mage Slayer, or even Defensive Duelist, instead of Int +2--at least for a pure Eldritch Knight. EKs are SAD.

YMMV though. If you want to invest in Int I'm not going to stop you, obviously. I just don't see the value in it, considering the opportunity cost. If you can postulate a campaign setting such that I'd be sad not to have higher Int, I'm listening. (I consider it more likely that you'd make me regret not being a Fighter 1/Evoker X, e.g. a campaign against hordes of orcs and hobgoblins.)

[Tanarii]

Not boosting Int doesn't prevent you from using AoEs. It just makes those AoE's 2.5% less effective. I'd far rather spend that ASI on Lucky, or Mobile, or Resilient (Wis), or Mage Slayer, or even Defensive Duelist, instead of Int +2--at least for a pure Eldritch Knight. EKs are SAD.I get about a 3%-6% DPR decrease for one ASI, 6-12% for two (which is more likely since you'll be focusing on Int anyway). Assuming you are applying the disadvantage, and for targets in the full range of Dex +0 to Dex +5, with a base save DC of 14 vs 15 or 16.

5% is the ASI value of increasing your Str (roughly), so it's on par vs those high Dex targets. And TBH when you're talking about a few times per day ability, DPR becomes less relevant than making sure the save fails. Although it's still valuable for comparison to other more frequent use abilities, obviously.

For sure though, other Feats are valuable. So is Con. But IMO Int is a perfectly valid way to build an EK. Especially if you want to smack stuff around but occasionally nuke something. (Also in a a Feat-less game, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm.)

[MaxWilson]

I get about a 3%-6% DPR decrease for one ASI, 6-12% for two (which is more likely since you'll be focusing on Int anyway). Assuming you are applying the disadvantage, and for targets in the full range of Dex +0 to Dex +5, with a base save DC of 14 vs 15 or 16.

Those are different assumptions than I used (especially: applying Eldritch Strike to all the orcs in your Fireball--if those orcs have been hit by Sharpshooter attacks they should already be dead with no Fireball required) but I'm willing to stipulate them for the sake of argument: 3-6% change in Fireball effectiveness per ASI.


5% is the ASI value of increasing your Str (roughly), so it's on par vs those high Dex targets.

My recollection is that increasing your ability by +1 to-hit and +1 damage is about a 20% swing in effectiveness. I don't remember if that is with or without Sharpshooter sniping, but a quick spot check (Fighter 11 shooting at AC 19 Pit Fiends, with Dex 18 vs 20) gives me:

3 attacks hitting on 11 for d8+4: 13.43 damage (14.93 with sniping)
3 attacks hitting on 10 for d8+5: 16.35 damage (18.23 with sniping)
Result: +22% increase in effectiveness (+25% with sniping)

+20%ish every round is more impressive (to me) than a 3-6% increase in Fireball damage once in a blue moon.


And TBH when you're talking about a few times per day ability, DPR becomes less relevant than making sure the save fails. Although it's still valuable for comparison to other more frequent use abilities, obviously.

For sure though, other Feats are valuable. So is Con. But IMO Int is a perfectly valid way to build an EK. Especially if you want to smack stuff around but occasionally nuke something. (Also in a a Feat-less game, but that seems to be the exception rather than the norm.)

I'm not saying that boosting Int is invalid. Everything in valid in 5E, including taking Skilled (Performance, Animal Handling, Sleight of Hand, Survival). I'm saying that it is unattractive, to me, when playing an Eldritch Knight, and that ignoring Int completely is a perfectly valid and quite good way to play an Eldritch Knight. Although I generally can't stand to drop Int below 12ish for RP reasons, since I like to play tactically competent characters, and that doesn't jive with Int 6. I'll even dump Wisdom before I'll dump Int*.

* Except when I'm playing a Moon Druid based on Jayne Cobb from Fireplay, in which case Int 9 and Cha 6 feels entirely appropriate.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm not saying that boosting Int is invalid. Everything in valid in 5E, including taking Skilled (Performance, Animal Handling, Sleight of Hand, Survival).

Weapon Master!

A weapon master would never take the feat and there are so many other (better) ways of gaining weapon proficiency (single class, multiclass, or racial choice) that it really isn't needed.

Anyone that would be using a weapon will typically get the weapons they can use or need from their class.

:p

Anyways...

DPR doesn't really matter when comparing a Fighter to a Fighter as they can almost always do damage in some way that will keep up or surpass what the game requires.

Doing less DPR isn't so horrible since you don't need to be doing *optimal DPR* in the first place.

If a target has 12 HP and there are two PCs. PC 1 deals 6 points of damage on average and PC 2 deals 11 damage on average then on average both will kill the target in 2 rounds (too many variables to think of anything but average).

This is something that makes me hate using DPR as a statistic for class worth. You have to take into the HP of the target before you can determine if that 5% increase matters or not. In the example above a 55% increase to PC 2's average DPR didn't change the fact that the Target took 2 rounds to be killed.