3.5 - Wild Shape Questions

[fluke1993]

Evening playgrounders.

I am soon to be playing in a 3.5 game and one of my fellow players was considering going into the blighter PrC. After pointing out that the class was absolutely terrible, and asking why he wanted to play it he said that it was mostly because he like the concept of undead wild shape. So as a substitute I pointed him to things like aberrant wildshape. Upon which the question came up: Wait you mean I could wild shape into a Mindflayer? To which I replied yes. The next question that came up was: wait so I would get the psionics and brain eating? I told him probably not to the psionics and yes to the brain eating.

After the above encounter, we both had questions and I retired to my books to riddle them out. Some of them (like why is blighter terrible and what book aberrant wild shape was from) were fairly easy to figure out but I still have a few after an hour or so of digging. So I figure I would ask the people who have surely answered the questions before. The questions are as follows

1a: Why is blighter terrible?
1b: Does undead wild shape do anything aside from re-grant sub-par wild shaping?
2a: While I am 90% sure that wild shape does not grant SU or SP abilities, only EX; I cannot find any evidence in the wild shape entry to prove this. The fact that feats like dragon wild shape explicitly grant SU abilities seems to support my thoughts but I still cant find hard proof. I assume this is because of some sort of errata (I seem to remember something about alter self?) but I cannot for the life of me find it. Can someone point me in the right direction?
2b: If you are willing can you give me a rundown of how wildshape works. What abilities you do and do not get, how your stats change, how your skills change, and anything else that might be affected.
3: Is there a way to get a useful version of undead wildshape?

edit:
Any light you can shed would be greatly appreciated.

[eggynack]

1a: Why is blighter terrible?
You lose all of your casting, and get much worse casting as a replacement. Said casting is off of a worse list, as a start, and it's behind standard casting in terms of spell level for most of its run. On top of that, you have to destroy massive amounts of forest, which can be tricky.


1b: Does undead wild shape do anything aside from re-grant sub-par wild shaping?
Not really, no.


2a: While I am 90% sure that wild shape does not grant SU or SP abilities, only EX; I cannot find any evidence in the wild shape entry to prove this. The fact that feats like dragon wild shape explicitly grant SU abilities seems to support my thoughts but I still cant find hard proof. I assume this is because of some sort of errata (I seem to remember something about alter self?) but I cannot for the life of me find it. Can someone point me in the right direction?
You can find the errata here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata). As you say, it sets wild shape to being based on alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm), and makes it act about as you say.


2b: If you are willing can you give me a rundown of how wildshape works. What abilities you do and do not get, how your stats change, how your skills change, and anything else that might be affected.
The answer to this is in the above answer.

3: Is there a way to get a useful version of undead wildshape?
I do not know of a way to gain that specific ability, no. However, your player may be interested in the prestige class talontar blightlord from unapproachable east, as it has a decent amount of that blighter flavor without being absolutely terrible. It's not particularly good either, but you're at least not losing druid casting in the exchange. I'd advise either one or two levels, if he goes for it.

As other notes on arbitrary theming, because I think about druids of this variety more than I probably should, the best ways to pull off necromancy on a druid are either wild shape based, using either myconid sovereign (MM II, 154) or yellow musk creeper (FF, 190) form to make plant zombies, or spell based, either using animate with the spirit (CV, 140) to get reanimation themed lesser planar ally, or blackwater tentacle (Storm, 114) to inflict negative levels and make an uncontrolled wightpocalypse.

On top of that, if he's at the level for it, I'd vaguely advise towards using a fhorge (FF, 72) as an animal companion, because it has the extraplanar subtype, and also because it's awesome. Really gets across that whole otherworldly undead+aberration vibe. I can also send over my in progress druid handbook, if you'd like, as it has one of the best aberration wild shape lists out there. Long story short, it's amazing with enhance wild shape (SpC, 82).

[fluke1993]

eggynack

First off thanks for the quick reply!

You ave cleared up most of the questions I had about wild shape and confirmed my opinions on blighter. That being said I would like to run something by you to make sure I have this all figured out.


D20srd description and description of alternate form

Say for instance a level 12 druid used wild shape to wild shape into a gas spore (lords of Madness Pg. 148,149) (pardon the bizarre choice of monsters, it was the first example I found with SU flight, EX special attacks and EX special abilities) they would gain all forms of movement, including flight despite it being supernatural, EX attacks such as death throes and infestation, but they would not gain EX special abilities such as all around vision and beholder camouflage and, if a gas spore had them, he would not acquire ANY SU or SP abilities or attacks aside from flight. Is this correct?

Another question also comes to mind. I know there is a feat that lets you acquire SU abilites with wild shape but is there something similar for EX abilities? There is always master of many forms but I would be interested in learning any other tricks there might be out there I would be interested in knowing them.

Finally I would love a link to that handbook you mentioned.

[Urpriest]

eggynack

First off thanks for the quick reply!

You ave cleared up most of the questions I had about wild shape and confirmed my opinions on blighter. That being said I would like to run something by you to make sure I have this all figured out.



Say for instance a level 12 druid used wild shape to wild shape into a gas spore (lords of Madness Pg. 148,149) (pardon the bizarre choice of monsters, it was the first example I found with SU flight, EX special attacks and EX special abilities) they would gain all forms of movement, including flight despite it being supernatural, EX attacks such as death throes and infestation, but they would not gain EX special abilities such as all around vision and beholder camouflage and, if a gas spore had them, he would not acquire ANY SU or SP abilities or attacks aside from flight. Is this correct?

Another question also comes to mind. I know there is a feat that lets you acquire SU abilites with wild shape but is there something similar for EX abilities? There is always master of many forms but I would be interested in learning any other tricks there might be out there I would be interested in knowing them.

Finally I would love a link to that handbook you mentioned.

There's a spell, Enhance Wild Shape, that gives Ex special qualities.

[eggynack]

Say for instance a level 12 druid used wild shape to wild shape into a gas spore (lords of Madness Pg. 148,149) (pardon the bizarre choice of monsters, it was the first example I found with SU flight, EX special attacks and EX special abilities) they would gain all forms of movement, including flight despite it being supernatural, EX attacks such as death throes and infestation, but they would not gain EX special abilities such as all around vision and beholder camouflage and, if a gas spore had them, he would not acquire ANY SU or SP abilities or attacks aside from flight. Is this correct?
That is accurate, yes.


Another question also comes to mind. I know there is a feat that lets you acquire SU abilites with wild shape but is there something similar for EX abilities? There is always master of many forms but I would be interested in learning any other tricks there might be out there I would be interested in knowing them.
As I mentioned, the spell enhance wild shape from the spell compendium grants full access to extraordinary special qualities for your next form taken. Pretty ridiculously good with aberration wild shape.

[fluke1993]

eggynack/urpriest on Enhance Wild Shape:
Thanks for the response, can't believe I missed that in your original post.

eggynack on Wild Shape example:
Cool, thanks for the confirmation.

[Grim Reader]

1a: Why is blighter terrible?

Its not, really. Most people who feel that it is, insist that you absolutely have to play your way up to a 5th level Druid and then lose all your powers. Which admittedly is pretty terrible. However, it is a fluff requirement that can be fluffed away by race choice or backstory. An Elan who prior to becoming so was a Druid, and fell to the lure of immortality can qualify, as can someone who lost all their Druid levels through the trauma of level drain. That lets you qualify after 4 levels of a full-BaB class. Admittedly none of these options are good for your caster level.

In a pinch, you can get in through Spirit Shaman or Hunter with 1 level of Druid.

You get 9th level spells in 9 levels, which is pretty powerful, although it takes you a few levels to get back on track spellcasting-wise, and your spell list is not amazing. You also got to deforest small areas of vegetation to recharge.


1b: Does undead wild shape do anything aside from re-grant sub-par wild shaping?

It grants you the Undead type, which opens a few doors, and grants a number of immunities. Note that the Blighter has the fairly unique ability to assume or leave the Undead type according to whats most convenient, which drops quite a few of the disadvantages.

If he does want to run a Blighter, he should probably look into ways to expand his spell list.

[Fouredged Sword]

I see the idea of loosing druid levels due to level loss. Interesting idea.

So, lets break it down. You are a bamboo spirit folk who took 5 levels of druid. You then became twisted by undeath, touched by evil forces, and suffered 5 levels of level drain after taking your first level of blighter. Now you get a scroll of greater restoration to heal your drain, but you return twisted by undeath. Rather than gaining the druid levels back, you gain 4 levels of Dread Necromancer and another level of blighter!

Now, rather than advancing as a blighter, you explore the mix of arcane and druidic necromancy. You qualify for Arcane Hierophant! Now, because you never gain more class levels of blighter, you only deforest 20ft around you. Get a portable hole and uproot a bush to deforest in your portable hole each morning to restore your spells without leveling a segment of forest.

Now, blighter lacks really good class features. Now we have an undead themed rapid progression duel spellcasting class. You get 9th level spells at 13th level without losing more than 2 levels of dread necromancer progression (keeping your ability to get 9th level dread necromancer spells!).

Nothing says the plants and animals must be willing to be targeted by channel animal and plant! Use it to kill them and raise them as fell animate zombies (you get to skip the touch attack and deliver no save damage spells!)

If the whole level loss thing won't fly, Blighter can be entered at level 2 with proper feats and a flaw. Versatile spellcaster (you can spontaniously cast summon natures ally spells), heighten spell, and sanctum spell can be used to allow you to hit the 3rd level spell requirement at level 1. Then you can enter Blighter as a 2nd level character, hitting 9th level spells at 10th character level.

Missed the BAB prereq. I will have to think on this more.... I think it's doable per the first option at level 8 or so (druid 6 / blighter 2 -> dread necromancer 6 / blighter 2 / Arcane Herophaint 10 / Dread Necromancer 2)

[Grim Reader]

I see the idea of loosing druid levels due to level loss. Interesting idea.

So, lets break it down. You are a bamboo spirit folk who took 5 levels of druid. You then became twisted by undeath, touched by evil forces, and suffered 5 levels of level drain after taking your first level of blighter. Now you get a scroll of greater restoration to heal your drain, but you return twisted by undeath. Rather than gaining the druid levels back, you gain 4 levels of Dread Necromancer and another level of blighter!

Now, rather than advancing as a blighter, you explore the mix of arcane and druidic necromancy. You qualify for Arcane Hierophant! Now, because you never gain more class levels of blighter, you only deforest 20ft around you. Get a portable hole and uproot a bush to deforest in your portable hole each morning to restore your spells without leveling a segment of forest.

Now, blighter lacks really good class features. Now we have an undead themed rapid progression duel spellcasting class. You get 9th level spells at 13th level without losing more than 2 levels of dread necromancer progression (keeping your ability to get 9th level dread necromancer spells!).

Nothing says the plants and animals must be willing to be targeted by channel animal and plant! Use it to kill them and raise them as fell animate zombies (you get to skip the touch attack and deliver no save damage spells!)

I'm not sure Greater Restoration works like that, but your build should work with Psychic Reformation (and some BaB). Which is another pleasant way into Blighter, too. Arcane Hierophant also advances Wild Shape, familiar and animal Companion. You can get an animal companion with a feat to the the companion familiar, and there are a lot of good feats for wild shape.

Full-BaB class 1, Battle Sorcerer 4 for example.

Interestingly, Exalted Wildshape does not seem to have an alignment qualifier from a glance at Tools. Not really powerful, but you can be an Undead Blink Dog or Unicorn.
Edit: Am I thinking of Psychic Reformation? Or was there another Power that let you rebuild? Im not that familiar with the psionic rules.

[Urpriest]

I'm not sure Greater Restoration works like that, but your build should work with Psychic Reformation (and some BaB). Which is another pleasant way into Blighter, too. Arcane Hierophant also advances Wild Shape, familiar and animal Companion. You can get an animal companion with a feat to the the companion familiar, and there are a lot of good feats for wild shape.

Full-BaB class 1, Battle Sorcerer 4 for example.

Interestingly, Exalted Wildshape does not seem to have an alignment qualifier from a glance at Tools. Not really powerful, but you can be an Undead Blink Dog or Unicorn.
Edit: Am I thinking of Psychic Reformation? Or was there another Power that let you rebuild? Im not that familiar with the psionic rules.

Psychic Reformation is the one you're thinking of, but it only lets you rebuild feats, skills, and powers, not levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

Psychic Reformation is the one you're thinking of, but it only lets you rebuild feats, skills, and powers, not levels.

One could simply brute force it and use the PHB 2 retraining rules to change your class levels. If I remember right, you can't do it all at once, but retraining druid levels is very possible. It is even possible to cut your druid levels to 1 to reduce the retraining needed. Just use heighten, sanctum spell, and versatile spellcaster to temporarily hit the 3rd spell level requirement before psi-reforming away the feats. You can then enter as any race, so long as you have 2 flaws. Now, unless you are a bamboo spirit folk it will be hard to get into Arcane Hierophant.

Ex-druid 1 / Dread Necromancer 5 / blighter 1 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Dread Necromancer 3 works. You must keep sanctum spell until level 8, but once you get your first level of Arcane Hierophant you self qualify for the PRC.

[eggynack]

Its not, really. Most people who feel that it is, insist that you absolutely have to play your way up to a 5th level Druid and then lose all your powers. Which admittedly is pretty terrible. However, it is a fluff requirement that can be fluffed away by race choice or backstory. An Elan who prior to becoming so was a Druid, and fell to the lure of immortality can qualify, as can someone who lost all their Druid levels through the trauma of level drain. That lets you qualify after 4 levels of a full-BaB class. Admittedly none of these options are good for your caster level.
I wouldn't call that a fluff requirement so much as, y'know, the exact opposite of a fluff requirement. It's completely and entirely mechanical after all, and bypassing the issue with an odd semantics based argument just comes across as cheesy in any kind of actual play. It's not like you're entering early either. You still need to be an ex-druid, not have once been an ex-druid, which means you're still entering at level 6.

More to the point, it means you're effectively running a character at the same approximate power level as the original, just without the bad feelings created by ditching druid power. The spell list is still terrible compared to just being a druid, you still tend to have access to it at a slower rate until high levels, you still get worse class features than a normal druid, and you still have to deforest a bunch of stuff. The fact of the matter is, even the standard druid entry blighter probably isn't that bad on game-wide objective power levels, with its full spell list and un-terrible class features. It's just terrible compared to a druid, and this construct is also that.

[Grim Reader]

I wouldn't call that a fluff requirement so much as, y'know, the exact opposite of a fluff requirement.

Not sure if we have the same definition of fluff then. It is a required piece of character background which may or may not affect the character depending on how you write it up. That fits my description of fluff.


It's completely and entirely mechanical after all, and bypassing the issue with an odd semantics based argument just comes across as cheesy in any kind of actual play.

Its not actually sematics. You need to be an Ex-Druid, and you became one as part of your character background. If you're an Elan, you fell because of the lust for immortality, one of the very oldest fantasy hooks. Gave up on the cycle of nature and became an Aberration, an offence against nature! Anything -to live forever!

If you were level-drained, you probably lost your faith when it was insufficient to save you, and maybe have a bit of Stockholm Syndrome. Seeking the power of that which overcame you is not inconcivable, and you would fall and become an Ex-Druid. Cue "War og Worlds" Nathaniel of "The Spirit of Man" crying his loss of faith to the heavens after seeing the Martians triumph.


It's not like you're entering early either. You still need to be an ex-druid, not have once been an Ex-druid, you fell which means you're still entering at level 6.

Actually, since you're an Ex-Druid with the lost capacity to cast 3rd-level spells, you just need BaB +4, so you can enter at 5 from a full BaB class. Like Fighter -with plate mail metal armor! I think claiming that you're no longer an Ex-Druid if you take other classes ater falling is pretty twisted sematics and not correct.


More to the point, it means you're effectively running a character at the same approximate power level as the original, just without the bad feelings created by ditching druid power. The spell list is still terrible compared to just being a druid, you still tend to have access to it at a slower rate until high levels, you still get worse class features than a normal druid, and you still have to deforest a bunch of stuff. The fact of the matter is, even the standard druid entry blighter probably isn't that bad on game-wide objective power levels, with its full spell list and un-terrible class features. It's just terrible compared to a druid, and this construct is also that.

Its less powerful than Druid. Whats your point?

98 % of interesting builds are less powerful than Druid. If we were to dump every interesting build and ability less powerful than Druid, not only would we be left with very little variety, it would be cheesy beyond belief.

[eggynack]

Not sure if we have the same definition of fluff then. It is a required piece of character background which may or may not affect the character depending on how you write it up. That fits my description of fluff.
It's character background taken from a strictly mechanical perspective, and mechanics is very much not fluff. This isn't some sort of roleplaying thing. It's a thing that can, at least theoretically, be contained purely on a character sheet.




Its not actually sematics. You need to be an Ex-Druid, and you became one as part of your character background. If you're an Elan, you fell because of the lust for immortality, one of the very oldest fantasy hooks. Gave up on the cycle of nature and became an Aberration, an offence against nature! Anything -to live forever!
The semantics is the part where you're arguing that "previously capable" is referring to any given previous point, as opposed to what I think is the intent, that you had 3rd level spells, then lost them to being an ex-druid, and then became a blighter.


Actually, since you're an Ex-Druid with the lost capacity to cast 3rd-level spells, you just need BaB +4, so you can enter at 5 from a full BaB class. Like Fighter -with plate mail metal armor! I think claiming that you're no longer an Ex-Druid if you take other classes ater falling is pretty twisted sematics and not correct.
Not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, whether you need that level of casting when you enter the class or not, you absolutely do need to be an ex-druid. Ex-druid is a thing you can be, a thing you can have levels in, and you need at least one level to be "ex-druid". Thus, you can't have five full levels of a full BAB class, as it's tempered by that one level in a 3/4 BAB class.


Its less powerful than Druid. Whats your point?
The point is that your change doesn't actually change things much. Your way of building the character definitely feels better, as they don't lose power in the transition to blighter, but I don't think it's substantially better from a strict power level perspective. The theurge idea is at least somewhat interesting though, I think.



98 % of interesting builds are less powerful than Druid. If we were to dump every interesting build and ability less powerful than Druid, not only would we be left with very little variety, it would be cheesy beyond belief.
Sure, but we're talking about a druid as the base here, almost necessarily, and that makes it effectively the comparison point.

[fluke1993]

I would note that blighters do NOT have the option of not applying the skeletal template when using Undead Wild Shape.
Undead Wild Shape (Sp): At 3rd level, the blighter gains a version of the wild shape ability. Undead wild shape functions like the druid’s wild shape ability, except that the blighter adds the skeleton template to the animal form he chooses to transform into. The blighter’s animal form is altered as follows:
— Type changes to undead.
— Natural armor bonus is +0 (Tiny animal), +1 (Small), +2 (Medium or Large), or +3 (Huge).
— +2 Dexterity, no Constitution score.
— Immunity to cold.
— Damage reduction 5/bludgeoning.
The blighter gains one extra use per day of this ability at every even blighter level after 3rd. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large skeletal animal at 5th level and a Huge skeletal animal at 9th level.

The two most important parts of this ability are:


Undead wild shape functions like the druid’s wild shape ability, except that the blighter adds the skeleton template to the animal form he chooses to transform into.
The only way I can think to interpret this is that you take the animal, as it normally would be, and then add the skeleton template to it. Notice that it doesn't say anything along the lines of "the blighter may add"


The blighter’s animal form is altered as follows:...
Which I interpret to mean you apply these boosts to the skeleton animal you created and that becomes your form. While it could be argued that this happens before the application of the skeleton template, I think that applying it after the skeleton template is more beneficial and makes more sense.

Pros:
Type actually changes to undead.
+4 total Dex and a lack of constitution (which is usually a good thing) on top of whatever other increases you would normally get.
Immunity to cold twice.
Variable Natural AC bonus based on size.
DR 5/Bludgeoning twice.

Cons:
You now have undead vulnerabilities.
You have to apply the skeleton template to the form, removing EX flight, all forms of special attacks and any special quality that doesn't directly aid with its melee and ranged attacks.
It's not wild shape and doesn't benefit from things like Aberration Wild Shape

[Grim Reader]

It's character background taken from a strictly mechanical perspective, and mechanics is very much not fluff. This isn't some sort of roleplaying thing. It's a thing that can, at least theoretically, be contained purely on a character sheet.

I don't think the fact that it can be put on a character sheet excludes it from being roleplaying. Betraying your principles for immortality is a pretty strong fantasy trope, and falling from your faith for power after your faith failed to shield you and yours is a pretty good hook too.


The semantics is the part where you're arguing that "previously capable" is referring to any given previous point, as opposed to what I think is the intent, that you had 3rd level spells, then lost them to being an ex-druid, and then became a blighter.

I think you misunderstand. Aberrations are generally considered unnatural by Druids, wanting to step outside the natural cycle of life and death to avoid the cold grasp of death is also quite unnatural, and so is undead. If a character chooses any of these paths, he will fall. She would be both an Ex-Druid and an ex-druid. In fact, I am fairly sure seeking to become a Blighter is a gross violation of the Druids beliefs and would be enough for a Fall. I think you could still breach the code even if you had no Druid levels left at that point.


Not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, whether you need that level of casting when you enter the class or not, you absolutely do need to be an ex-druid. Ex-druid is a thing you can be, a thing you can have levels in, and you need at least one level to be "ex-druid". Thus, you can't have five full levels of a full BAB class, as it's tempered by that one level in a 3/4 BAB class.

I don't think you do need at least one level in Druid to be an Ex-Druid. As long as you have been a Druid, and are in violation of the ethics. Maybe you could make a totally mechanical argument for it, but I think if you are in gross violation of the code, does not revere nature etc, you are still an Ex-Druid and barred from taking Druid levels.

Example: Gorrak the Hugefooted is a Barbarian 2/Druid 5. He loses his Druid levels to energy drain. As a Barbarian 2, he teaches Druid to non-Druids, and slash and burns a forest for his tribe. When he levels up he wants to take a level of Druid. I'd argue that he was in violation of the Druid code even if he was temporarily without Druid levels. I'd consider it similar to a Paladin who has temporarily lost his Paladin levels thinking she has a window to murder before getting her Restoration in.


The point is that your change doesn't actually change things much. Your way of building the character definitely feels better, as they don't lose power in the transition to blighter, but I don't think it's substantially better from a strict power level perspective. The theurge idea is at least somewhat interesting though, I think.

I think it opens up a lot of interesting builds. Thats the idea really. I'll admit that it is not RAI, but I am certain it is RAW, it comes with some huge roleplaying hooks, and it is an approach that takes a useless class and makes it playable and interesting. It doesn't have to be more powerful to be more interesting.


Sure, but we're talking about a druid as the base here, almost necessarily, and that makes it effectively the comparison point.

Not sure about that. Master of Many Forms was RAI a druid class, but Wildshaping Ranger is probably a more interesting entry point, even if a hair below in power. (And I can see Wildshaping Hunter surpassing the Ranger there). There is a sweet spot at level 10-13 where you may match or surpass the Druid, but generally, I think it is much more interesting than Druid. Its like comparing straight Cleric to a Favored Soul or Inquisitor build. Tier isn't playing enjoyment.


It's not wild shape and doesn't benefit from things like Aberration Wild Shape

Not sure of that. By text, it is a version of the Druids Wild Shape ability. I think that should be sufficient to apply wild shape spells and feats to it. Aberration Wild Shape gives you the ability to take the forms of Aberrations, not the type, so I don't see why that should be blocked.