PDA

View Full Version : Convince me to Allow Psionics



Olethros
2007-03-21, 11:00 AM
Im a DM, no really its true.

I tend to run my games on home-brew worlds, largly so I don't have players insisting that they be allowed to do something because it is available in this splat-book, Novel, suppliment, etc.

One thing that has been a constent in my games is the never-waivering axiom "Psionics Do Not Exist" at any point if it looks like psionics exist, you were wrong, that was a spell-like, extraordinary, crazy monster ability and you cant do it, not even with polymorph.

I have my reasons for this, mostly stemming from a horable experience with a psionic kobold from way back in 2nd ed, and the fact that I don't let playeres use any book I don't own or have continious access too. Also, I have yet to be shown a psionic "concept" that isn't already covered by established core classes.

So for all you Psions out there, convince me Im wrong. As a player, convince me to introduce psionics to my world, so they are available as a playable class. What will it add to the gaming experience of non-psions, how well does it mesh with other classes, how often will I be forced to "figure out" how these two powers work against/with each other, what does it add that is unique and not reproducable by another class?

Please, those are ant-psionics, let the pro-psions have the floor for most of this thread, I have all the sceptisism and bad blood covered.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-21, 11:03 AM
Psionics in 3.5 aren't nearly as broken as they were in second edition. It isn't an entirely new rule set, and meshes well with the magic system. Magic and psionics even overlap by default, so that you can use Dispel Magic to get rid of Animal Affinity, and a Null Psionics Zone will supress a Mage Armour.

Also... it's in the SRD, so you don't need any more books.

ocato
2007-03-21, 11:03 AM
In my experience with psionics, if it isn't a psionic campaign with psionic enemies and psionic situations, the Psion lollerskates over everything's face without any kind of challenge.

Lollerskates.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-21, 11:07 AM
In my experience with psionics, if it isn't a psionic campaign with psionic enemies and psionic situations, the Psion lollerskates over everything's face without any kind of challenge.

Lollerskates.

...Why? Psionics isn't very different to magic. If you can handle a mage, you can handle a psionicist.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 11:08 AM
Further, psionic powers are weaker than spells in that they don't automatically augment. Sure, you can spend power points to upgrade your powers, but there's a finite limit: your manifester level.

I would suggest looking at the Psionics Myths Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253).

kamikasei
2007-03-21, 11:08 AM
In my experience with psionics, if it isn't a psionic campaign with psionic enemies and psionic situations, the Psion lollerskates over everything's face without any kind of challenge.

Did your experience include psionics-magic transparency, or was a lone psion in the party fighting a bunch of monsters with no defenses against him, while he benefited from all the standard magic-defense items and options of the game?

Did the psion have to measure out his power use over the recommended average four encounters a day? Did he abide by the rule that no single power may be manifested with more points than you have manifester levels?

OP: there are lots of arguments to be made as to why psionics shouldn't be banned, but it would be helpful if you indicated just how "new" or "unique" they have to be to be accepted. Would you allow warlocks? Hexblades? Incarnum? Tome of Battle?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-21, 11:09 AM
Seriously. Creatures with psionic resistances are necessary to counter psionic players, and that's extra effort on the DM's end. Plus, all psionics have stupid names and smell like poop and I hate them.

Really, psionics can be done well. But the DM needs to reset his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN the moment a player decides to become one.

Tormsskull
2007-03-21, 11:10 AM
Coming from an anti-psionic perspective (for various reasons) you don't need to be convinced to use psionics. You obviously want to, so just do it.

If there are specific things you are worried about, list them and then explain why you think they might cause a concern. Then posters can constructively tell you why you may be right or wrong and how to fix it if need be.

Yuki Akuma
2007-03-21, 11:10 AM
Seriously. Creatures with psionic resistances are necessary to counter psionic players, and that's extra effort on the DM's end. Plus, all psionics have stupid names and smell like poop and I hate them.

Really, psionics can be done well. But the DM needs to reset his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN the moment a player decides to become one.

Spell Resistance works against psionics. Power Resistance works against magic. There is no problem here.

Piccamo
2007-03-21, 11:11 AM
Essentially in 3.5 Psionics are an alternate magic system. This one works well with Arcane and Divine magic, emulating many of the same abilities. They are more spontaneous in casting than sorcerers, but overall their powers are weaker than the spells.

I don't play a Psion, but I have DMed for them and am playing a campaign alongside one right now. The Psionics will add new dangers for your players in that they won't be able to prepare for the enemy as well; fortunately as a DM you can prepare for the Psion by using varied monsters against them (really anything good against a traditional caster is good against a psion).

The Psion will add some unique abilities to nonpsions in varied ways to gain buffs and it "costs" less for the Psion to help out the party with a higher level power than it would a higher level spell; this is because psions use basically a magic point system and thus if they need multiple high level powers in a day they can use them, but they will not be able to use many other powers.

You won't really be forced to "figure out" these powers very often because they work almost exactly the same as spells. If you play with Transparency (a term that is described in the SRD) then Spell Resistance works the same for both Vancian and psionic magic.

Psionics do not do anything in particular that another class cannot do, which really goes a long way in helping balance them. Its using a different source than traditional magic systems to fuel that power. Psionics aren't overpowered in 3.5e.

Logos7
2007-03-21, 11:12 AM
The Lack of Auto Augmentation is more than Made up with the DC shifting that occurs ( Ie being able to save up your PP for more high level casts)

Will it ruin/break your game, Not any worse than a Wizard. But like any system if anyone in anyclass tries to break something it will break, and that's proably a good thing, otherwise DnD would be this invincable jugernaut of rules and it would be even harder to stop.

That said you obviously don't like/want psionics so why bother looking for excuses?

Logos

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-21, 11:14 AM
Oh, SR and PR do the same thing? Nevermind then. I always ran it wrong.

But their names still suck.

Piccamo
2007-03-21, 11:14 AM
The Lack of Auto Augmentation is more than Made up with the DC shifting that occurs ( Ie being able to save up your PP for more high level casts)

Will it ruin/break your game, Not any worse than a Wizard. But like any system if anyone in anyclass tries to break something it will break, and that's proably a good thing, otherwise DnD would be this invincable jugernaut of rules and it would be even harder to stop.

That said you obviously don't like/want psionics so why bother looking for excuses?

Logos
You won't be able to get off that many high level casts that do much. You will run out of PP long before you run out of encounters.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-21, 11:15 AM
The psion can nova more effectively that Vancian casters, so if you only have 1 encounter a day they might be a bit stronger ... it's not a huge difference though.

Also the Psychic Warrior is significantly better than the fighter ... now to most of us that isn't a problem, we call that balanced. Some people call it power creep though, if you are one of those people who are wrong (ie. those people who think martial base classes should be balanced against the fighter) then psionics is probably not for you.

Enzario
2007-03-21, 11:16 AM
Ah, 2nd ed psionics... so primitive...

The 3.5 version of psionics does not use the "psionic combat" rules, i.e. "You're now unconcious, and there was hardly anything you could do to stop me. Coup de grace, anyone?". In 3.5, psionics are simply another form of magic that may or may not overlap partially or completely with magic (DM's choice, but if you have a campaign with very few psionic monsters/challenges, I would go with full overlap for balance reasons). Think of a psion as a sorcerer that uses a point-based magic system, is more dependant on feats than a sorcerer (feats are used to expand power [think: "spell"] selection, obtain a psicrystal [think: "familiar"] and other goodies, like metapsionics and such) and has a slightly more limited selection of powers/spells than a sorcerer.

Also, many players like the idea of a person that generates amazing powers through force of mind rather than through a science that allows them to harness an existing power. People like being in control.:miko:

:edit:
Gah, so many people getting ahead of me!

@ PinkysBrain
Yes, the psychic warrior is in general better than the fighter, but look at its BAB progression. A fighter is going to be able to hit something a lot more than a psychic warrior.

jlousivy
2007-03-21, 11:18 AM
Psionic characters have a set number of powers. This helps prevent a 'spell/psionic caster' from having a counter to everything.

Basicly it's a 'mana' styled sorcerer. He can use weaker versions of his spell to preserve his mana pool. but he can't just unload everything into a single spell so the 'caster level' is still in place.

If you look at the various powers, many of them have spell equivalents, except the spells are generally better.

kamikasei
2007-03-21, 11:22 AM
Seriously. Creatures with psionic resistances are necessary to counter psionic players, and that's extra effort on the DM's end. Plus, all psionics have stupid names and smell like poop and I hate them.

Really, psionics can be done well. But the DM needs to reset his ENTIRE CAMPAIGN the moment a player decides to become one.

Your first statement is false. Your other statements are... really not what the OP was asking about.

To the OP: check out the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) for rules on psionics and threads like this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253) (to counter specific concerns you may have) and this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638776) (to answer your general questions). If you have a player who wants to use psionics, he can presumably work it out himself, and you can use those resources to keep him honest.

Note also these articles on the Wizards site: here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060310a), here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060606a), here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a) and here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060620a), and this (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi) column all about psionics.

In general, your misgivings sound unfounded. From what I hear psionics were unbalanced in 2nd edition, but that's not really relevant to 3.5. Claims that psions can tear through monsters and nothing can touch them are based on a variant rule, poorly handled. None of this can convince you that you ought to add psionics to a campaign, but you shouldn't be reluctant to allow a player to use them. It won't break your game and you won't have to alter the whole campaign to accomodate it. Throwing in a fair share of psionically-relevant loot, and the odd psionic monster, is the most you'll need to do.

NullAshton
2007-03-21, 11:25 AM
Psionic characters have a set number of powers. This helps prevent a 'spell/psionic caster' from having a counter to everything.

Basicly it's a 'mana' styled sorcerer. He can use weaker versions of his spell to preserve his mana pool. but he can't just unload everything into a single spell so the 'caster level' is still in place.

If you look at the various powers, many of them have spell equivalents, except the spells are generally better.

There is some instances where the powers are better. For one, Psions have limited healing. In addition, Temporal Acceleration is a target for psionic contingency, thus you can have it go off whenever for 6 free rounds.

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 11:26 AM
Oh, SR and PR do the same thing? Nevermind then. I always ran it wrong.

But their names still suck.
Under the XPH it gives two options. The highly recommend option is make them same thing, psionics affect magic the same way magic affect psionics.

The other option is make them different, it recommends against this for its so much more work for the DM (and even after the work is done it just doesn't work).

Olethros
2007-03-21, 11:27 AM
Coming from an anti-psionic perspective (for various reasons) you don't need to be convinced to use psionics. You obviously want to, so just do it.


Actually, I don't want to use psionics in my game world, but my reasons are potentially biased and based on erronious experiences/information. In the intrest of fairness to my players I am opening myself up to the possibility of having my mind changed. By discussing it here I don't reviel the process to my players, I try to maintaine the mystery wherever possible.

To respnd to the request for more info. My bad experience revolves around what seemed to be the concept of, if your not a psion, you have no defences against psions (particularly a Kobald psion nearly killing a paladin with some "brain-freezing" power) this was 2nd ed. where a character with an AC of 0 had a mental AC of 10 and no way to augment it, and I am lead to believe that this has been fixed, but I would like some examples.

As for how different would it have to be. The warlock, hexblade, other "add-on" base classes mentioned, use the same rules-set/magical concepts as the core classes. The warlock is an Arcane caster, doing arcane caster things, its a slightly different flavor, exists is a slightly different party role, but doesn't require an additional metaphysical system to impliment, so I don't mind the overlap (same way I don't mind sorcere and wizard overlap). Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 11:28 AM
Compare the list of 9th lvl spells with 9th lvl powers. Do the same for 8th lvl and then 5th lvl, 3rd, and 1st.

Powers are weaker than spells there are a few exceptions to this, but the time there are 10 times as many times arcane is super oh my god better than psionics.

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 11:29 AM
Actually, I don't want to use psionics in my game world, but my reasons are potentially biased and based on erronious experiences/information. In the intrest of fairness to my players I am opening myself up to the possibility of having my mind changed. By discussing it here I don't reviel the process to my players, I try to maintaine the mystery wherever possible.

To respnd to the request for more info. My bad experience revolves around what seemed to be the concept of, if your not a psion, you have no defences against psions (particularly a Kobald psion nearly killing a paladin with some "brain-freezing" power) this was 2nd ed. where a character with an AC of 0 had a mental AC of 10 and no way to augment it, and I am lead to believe that this has been fixed, but I would like some examples.

As for how different would it have to be. The warlock, hexblade, other "add-on" base classes mentioned, use the same rules-set/magical concepts as the core classes. The warlock is an Arcane caster, doing arcane caster things, its a slightly different flavor, exists is a slightly different party role, but doesn't require an additional metaphysical system to impliment, so I don't mind the overlap (same way I don't mind sorcere and wizard overlap). Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.
Will in the main option Psionics is the same as Arcane. Want to charm some one use psionic charm. SR and Will same as normal, same thing with hold person.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-03-21, 11:36 AM
Well, #1. 3.5 psionics are considered to be the first 'balanced' psionic system. In fact, its considered to be far more balanced than 3.5 magic.

I'm just going to go at this one step at a time...

-=-=-=-=-=-

Concept

Clerics, they just pray for powers. They don't neccessarily have a clue how the actual abilities work, but their faith gives them strength to bend the universe.

Druids, maybe a bit better, they feel the life force of the world and alter its flow, send it here or there or remove it from another.

Sorcerers and Wizards I honestly don't understand the concept of that well. It wholey depends on the setting.

Psionics now... it is the power of self. It is a heightened sense of awareness to the point you can see and comprehend things that those of lesser mentalities cannot. This insight and intuition allows them to do their wonders.

A telepath, his mind picks up and broadcasts his thoughts so strongly that they can override those of the actual being. Or he might just understand so in depth his own psyche that he can adjust how own mind with his mind.
A psychometabolist is the same way, but with his body in general. He can control blood flow, super-speed up his metabolism to heal at a phenomenal rate, or even adjust his very DNA itself to metamorph.

A kineticist, he can use psionic energy to feel the very movement of air molecules themselves and exert this power to shake them up so hard they explode outwards. Or perhaps he uses it to lift you up or to alter the physical laws. He in effect has an extra limb that cannot be seen or detected, but capable of crude raw power or incredible finesse.

A psychoporter, he sees the world differently. He understands time and space and his position in it, allowing him to cross boundaries like another climbs a fence. He KNOWS the rules that govern his position in the universe.

Psions do all this consciously, wilders subconsciously, and psychic warriors instinctively. But what it boils down to is this heightened state of wareness, this fundamental understanding allows them to do incredible things through sheer force of will.


Many somehow believe that all this is just sci-fi. For some reason a medeival world cannot have truely enlightened folks. Its the dark age where only ignorance and superstition can prevail. I spit upon this theory.

Incredibly deep philosophy and great advances have happened in our own non-supernatural world far before modern times. It is only now that we have so much accumulated in all aspects that we can retain all we've learned.


The power over one's self. A will and strength of personality that can change the world. is this not the definition of a hero?

This concept is in no way limited to a setting, and those that feel it cannot exist in fantasy haven't opened their minds and imaginations properly to deserve to play the class.

headwarpage
2007-03-21, 11:49 AM
That was very... romantic, VT.

I've never played in a game in which psionics featured prominently, but I kind of like the mechanics. The only reason I can see not to include psionics is if you find the fluff totally unappealing.

kamikasei
2007-03-21, 11:52 AM
To respnd to the request for more info. My bad experience revolves around what seemed to be the concept of, if your not a psion, you have no defences against psions (particularly a Kobald psion nearly killing a paladin with some "brain-freezing" power) this was 2nd ed. where a character with an AC of 0 had a mental AC of 10 and no way to augment it, and I am lead to believe that this has been fixed, but I would like some examples.

Wow, that sounds sucky. Well, as people have said, the default way to handle psionics is to make it subject to magical countermeasures as arcane or divine magic is: your kobold would have to overcome SR, could be dispelled, etc. I think the specific thing you describe was what they call "psionic combat" and, to my knowledge, it no longer exists.


As for how different would it have to be. The warlock, hexblade, other "add-on" base classes mentioned, use the same rules-set/magical concepts as the core classes. The warlock is an Arcane caster, doing arcane caster things, its a slightly different flavor, exists is a slightly different party role, but doesn't require an additional metaphysical system to impliment, so I don't mind the overlap (same way I don't mind sorcere and wizard overlap). Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.

Well, Vorpal Tribble goes into this. It depends a little on how fleshed-out the role of arcane or divine casters already is. Psions could be treated as just another sort of mage, or they could have their own tradition and role, but to be fair you probably ought to think about how arcane and divine magic "work" in the world, too - the metaphysics behind them. In specifics, note that psions can't be counterspelled, and use no material components, which lends a different flavor to their "magic"; past that, it would also depend on how common they are in the game world. The obvious, least-effort way to explain psionics is to say that they, wizards, and clerics all manipulate the same basic thing (the stuff the world is made of), with clerics and druids accessing powerful forces like gods and nature itself to do it for them, wizards utilizing little hooks and mechanisms in the world that they learn, and psionicists doing it through direct application of force of will.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-03-21, 12:03 PM
Uniqueness

There are many things you can do with psionics that you cannot do with magic. Many things overlap or are paralleled, but they are different.

For one, psionics tend to be far more flexible than most magics. Instead of having spell slots or spells known for the day, you have a set ammount of powers you know. They can be manifested any number of times per day, no matter their level, limited to your power points.

You do not have quite as many actual powers known as mages however, which is one balancing factor.

Another is that powers do not automatically scale. A 5th level wizard casting fireball can do 5d6 points of damage or whatever. A psion manifesting a similiar power will only do 1d6 points of damage at 5th level. To ramp it up to do 5d6, he'll have to spend additional power points, called augmenting. Its sort of like applying a metamagic feat to it to make the 1st level spell a 5th level one.

However, with only a view exceptions, this power does does not become a 5th level power. The DC does not increase. To do this requires even more psionic power points.

-=-=-=-=-

Then there is Psionic Focus. Its a state of mind only reachable by psionicists or those that have taken the Wild Talent feat. Basically you have your mind in a heightened state, ready to be directed.

While you are focused your mind and body are in a state of calm readiness.

To use most psionic feats you have to be 'focused'. The use of one of these feats generally requires you to expend this focus. Such as a karate master takes a deep breath and focuses all his energy into a single brutal blow that allows him to crack a stack of bricks as tall as he. To regain that focus he must go through his mental exercises once again.

This can allow for everything from a phenomenal jump, to having such poison you can run along the edge of a wall, putting your foot in just the right place to propell yourself, sensing the minute differences of facial expression to sense their thoughts, to focusing your mind to prolong or expand or alter your psionic energies and powers.

Nothing like this in magic.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Autohypnosis is also a fun difference, a new skill that lets you attempt to ignore fear and pain, keep yourself from dying, memorize, and the like. Its not quite so supernatural but more alike to the disciplines of the monks of the east.


Also, most psionic powers don't have magical counterparts and wouldn't really fit into the magic concept or practice. Seriously, I've tried to adjust psionic creatures into magical ones for contests and the lik and there are just places where the two systems don't even touch upon.


Personally though the theme itself was enough to win me over. Its so much more satisfying for power to come from yourself than to be borrowed from the gods and nature or merely borrowed from the universe such as with the mages.

The psionicists relies on him/herself.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-03-21, 12:13 PM
Well since he said he was taking things one step at a time I assume Vorpal is typing up another post as I speak, but I'd like to try to slip my thoughts in here as well. 3.5 Psionics is a significantly better system than any previous editions treatment of psionics. In 2nd ed psionics were godly and if you weren't a psion you were royally screwed, however this is not the case in 3.5. Gone is the concept of a separate mental AC, if the power requires an attack it is a regular attack roll against the targets regular AC (or Touch AC as appropriate just like with spells). In 3.0 there were psionic attack modes, and psionic defense modes, think of this like rock, paper, sissors, where characters used defense modes to counter attack modes, and if you didn't have any defenses you were again screwed. 3.5 did away with this as well, now all psionics are managed through the powers system. Also in 3.0 each discipline of psionics (Think: School of Magic) used a different ability score to determine the Save DC and other ability score variable effects. In 3.5 this is also no longer the case, each class has a primary manifesting statistic (Int for psions, Cha for wilders, and Wis for psychic warriors). So those are the primary way 3.5 psioinics differs from previous editions. Now lets consider how psionics function in 3.5.

In 3.5 each psionic character has a limited number of powers known based on their class level (just like a sorcerer), and a pool of power points, which they expend to use thier powers. Really, they differ from vancian casters in only one important way: that they use points instead of slots. Each power has an effect, as a rule this effect does not scale with Manifester level (A psionic equivilent to caster level) so rather than having Fireball as a third level spell which does 1d6 damage per caster level, you get Energy burst, as a third level power which deals 5d6 damage. As you can see when they ability to cast fireball and energy burst are first gained at Caster/Manifester level 5 They would do the same damage, however if these same two characters were to gain a few levels for the same investment of a 3rd level spell slot the caster is doing 7d6, while for the same investment of power points the psion is only doing 5d6. This seeming imbalance is rectified in the ability of the Psionic character to "Augment" thier powers by spending more power points, up to a limit of thier manifester level (or manifester level plus a couple with the right feats or class abilities.) Continuing to look at energy burst we see that it has a base power point cost of 5 power points, this means that when it is first gained it cannot be augmented (since it can first be gained at manifester level 5 and you are prohibited from spending more power points than you manifester level on a single power) however as he gains levels he can invest more power points in order for the spell to do more damage. So as you can hopefully see a 10th level wizard uses a third level spell slot to cast Fireball and does 10d6, meanwhile a 10th level psion would have to spend 10 powerpoints for that same 10d6 Energy Burst, and for that same 10 power points the psion could have manifested a 5th level psion power.

Artanis
2007-03-21, 12:18 PM
Im a completionist, so for psions to be added to a game world, I would have to atleast rough out how they fit into society, peoples reactions to them, there organization, etc. To justify that, I would need to believe that they offer something that can't be provided within the framework of the existing metaphysics.
You could always take Psionics-Magic transparency one step further and just have the setting treat Psionics like another sort of magic.

For an analogy, Sam Hornish and Jeff Gordon are both race car drivers first and foremost, with the fact that they drive totally different cars being largely an afterthought. So in that vein, you can have a Psion and a Wizard be more or less the same thing socially (i.e. "guy who sets you on fire by making funny motions"), despite the fact that there's a lot of differences in what they do.

That way, it would take almost no work at all to "fit Psionics into the setting".

ravenkith
2007-03-21, 12:24 PM
Psions just aren't that bad come 3.5.

Especially when you take into account PRCs.

What makes the psion different from the sorceror or the wizard is that he is, in fact, a hybrid of the two.

He gets the bonus feats of a wizard, along with the ability to specialize in a given field of his chosen brand of whacky, and cast as many times a day in a wizard like manner (when boiled down), but has the limitations to powers known and casting style of a sorceror (that is to say, spontaneous).

Wierdly, he also has the capability of wearing armor, if not the proficiency in it, like a cleric.

Psionics thmselves are just another kind of magic, like arcane or divine, in terms of the way they affect the campaign.

Just my 2 cents.

In 2nd ed, psioniics broke the game. But this is 3.5, and psinics aren't the way they were.

Google "d20 online srd" and read up on psionics. It's actually a fairly simple system.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-03-21, 12:28 PM
That was very... romantic, VT.
Hey, what can I say? :elan:


Well since he said he was taking things one step at a time I assume Vorpal is typing up another post as I speak, but I'd like to try to slip my thoughts in here as well.
Yeah, you did a far more thorough job of explaining the unique mechanics than I

clericwithnogod
2007-03-21, 12:37 PM
I tend to run my games on home-brew worlds, largly so I don't have players insisting that they be allowed to do something because it is available in this splat-book, Novel, suppliment, etc.


Wow. Your motivation for going through all the trouble of creating and maintaining a game world is to keep players from doing something they want to do?

Morty
2007-03-21, 12:37 PM
That was very... romantic, VT.

I've never played in a game in which psionics featured prominently, but I kind of like the mechanics. The only reason I can see not to include psionics is if you find the fluff totally unappealing.

Or if you find one working-even if classes are unbanced-magic system enough and don't want to bother with second one? Not to mention I like vancian magic better than point system. That's why I consider psionic completely unnecesarry.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-03-21, 12:46 PM
Or if you find one working-even if classes are unbanced-magic system enough and don't want to bother with second one? Not to mention I like vancian magic better than point system. That's why I consider psionic completely unnecesarry.
You do realize that most of the classes are 'unnecessary' right? Warrior, Sneak, Spellcaster and Healer is the standard.

Anything more then than a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric is 'unnecessary'. However, they do not cover all concepts nor fill all possible roles.

namo
2007-03-21, 12:50 PM
Rather than saying that psionics don't scale, I would say they don't scale automatically, i.e. you have to pay more. But in some instances psionics scale much better than magic IMO : see Inertial Armor for instance.
Which is of course necessary to balance the fact that they know few powers.

Morty
2007-03-21, 01:26 PM
You do realize that most of the classes are 'unnecessary' right? Warrior, Sneak, Spellcaster and Healer is the standard.

Anything more then than a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Cleric is 'unnecessary'. However, they do not cover all concepts nor fill all possible roles.

That's not the same. Classes other than these four are necessary to make any game more complex than dungeon hack'n'slash. But adding another magic(yeah, I know that psionic isn't magic, but i can't find another word to describe it) system when there's one already- well, if someone likes it God with him, but I don't see the point. As for psionic flavor you described in one of your previous posts- that's how they should have made sorcerer, instead of babbling incoherently about draconic or outsider heritage.

kamikasei
2007-03-21, 01:31 PM
That's not the same. Classes other than these four are necessary to make any game more complex than dungeon hack'n'slash.

It's impossible to make a game more complex than dungeon hack-and-slash using only fighters, wizards, clerics and rogues?

Really?

Olethros
2007-03-21, 01:52 PM
Wow. Your motivation for going through all the trouble of creating and maintaining a game world is to keep players from doing something they want to do?

No, one of the primary reasons is, as Im sory I failed to convey it appears, is that I do not want my players to think that just because it is in a book they read, it must be available to them. If, for instance, I ran a campaign in Forgotten Realms, I would be forced to either selectivly negate written cannon (basically homebrewing anyway), or heavyhandedly deny players what they want to do if it effects game balance/theme/etc. It is far simpler to my mind to simple say "Im sory winged elves dont exist on this world" than create a new rules system for the alter self spell. The same goes for controll of class availability, other races, weapons, magic items, and as the point of this thread psionics. I find it leads to alot less missunderstandings when the player understands why he needs to ask if something is available, rather than just being forced to face a constant barage of the NO-bag. Also its better than a player making character build discissions based on information brovided in cannon materials only to be told levels down the line, "Gee, Im Sory, I dont allow X in my version of WorldY."

Morty
2007-03-21, 01:57 PM
It's impossible to make a game more complex than dungeon hack-and-slash using only fighters, wizards, clerics and rogues?

Really?

Not impossible, but ceratinly harder.

okpokalypse
2007-03-21, 02:02 PM
If you're worried about Psionics "breaking" your game - don't.

The Psionic / Magic Transparency ensures that you don't require Psionics to combat Psioncs.

There are a few things to be wary of:

The Psychic Warrior is a very powerful Melee force when done properly because they possess a battlefield mobility (at higher levels) that no one else has. At L13 a Psy-Warr should have both Hustle & Dimension Door (which can be augmented to be manifested as a move action). This combination allows the Psy-Warr to travel 1000' or more as an effective swift action. In other words, it makes him possibly the most effective Mage-Killer in the game. Add in Expanded Knowledge later on, and he'll also learn "Anticipatory Strike" so that he's got an Immediate turn accellerator. Unless you catch him flat-footed, he's going very quickly.

Certain Psionic Melee PrCs also open up a few possibilities for extreme damage in ways most likely not intended. For Example: A Melee Scout / Ranger taking levels in WarMind to get Hustle (Extra Move Action) and Psionic Lion's Charge along with Expansion could be doing some very sick stuff. You're talking 6+ Attacks (w/ Buffs) doing something like 2d8+20 +5d6 (Skirmish) each. And that Skirmish stacks into Crits with the new Feats in the Complete Adventurer... And WarMind allows attacking two adjacent targets at once - with one attack - and they both can trigger cleaves. Put that all together and you've got a Skill Junkie / Psionic Melee build that, when faced with a group of enemies, hits upwards of 10 shots a round at or over 50 Damage a shot.

Certain powers also pose mechanical challenges to the d20 system...

You may want to make sure you put limitations on Fission (L7 Egoist Power). Specifically, that any XP spent while using Fission applies to the PC, and not the Duplciate - since the spell does not address this at all. I've seen it used to get off loads of free Reality Revisions to gain Inherent Bonuses and Ludicrous Wealth / Resources.

Beware Mind Switch, True! You haven't seen nasty until you've seen a Psion (Telepath) Mind Switch, True (L9 Telepathy Power) a Lilitu Demon and then proceed to kill his own Body so he gains the Physical Stats and Extraordinary Powers of the new Body - Permanently. Yeah, it drops him a level to do it, but seeing what it's given him leads me to believe it was completely worth it. 17 Str, 26 Dex, 18 Con, SR, DR, Energy Immunities & Resists, Shroud Alignment, Item Use (Essentially, Unlimited UMD) and Mock Divinity (Makes him a L9 Cleric too) all for 1 dropped level. And there's probably better things to switch with when all is said and done. It's just one of those things that needs to be managed at the high end.

But, at the same time, there's things in the Arcane / Divine side of things that need to be managed as well - so it's not all that different.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-21, 02:03 PM
I have my reasons for this, mostly stemming from a horable experience with a psionic kobold from way back in 2nd ed, and the fact that I don't let playeres use any book I don't own or have continious access too. Also, I have yet to be shown a psionic "concept" that isn't already covered by established core classes.

That's three reasons. Two are bogus. One is absolutely correct.

You absolutely should not be DMing a campaign with psionics if you don't have BOTH familiarity with and access to psionics rules. As to access, the XPH's rules are mostly in the SRD, online. However, without familiarity, it's a bad idea.

I say this as a fan of psionics. Play it first -- DM it later.

headwarpage
2007-03-21, 02:03 PM
Not impossible, but ceratinly harder.

I have to disagree with this. The number of classes available is a purely mechanical consideration. It does not affect roleplaying potential, the theme of the campaign, or any other 'fluff' consideration in any way.

Morty
2007-03-21, 02:22 PM
I have to disagree with this. The number of classes available is a purely mechanical consideration. It does not affect roleplaying potential, the theme of the campaign, or any other 'fluff' consideration in any way.

It's not just fluff. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer a bunch of more specific classes than few generic mechanic-wise.

Khantalas
2007-03-21, 02:25 PM
Bah. Some of the best RPing experiences I had was in Hunter, which has about no classes. There are creeds, but you could as well play without them.

Morty
2007-03-21, 02:29 PM
Well, I said it's just me. I prefer to play with classes, especially when there's magic in the system- because there aren't many things I hate more than everyone learning and using magic.

headwarpage
2007-03-21, 02:30 PM
It's not just fluff. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer a bunch of more specific classes than few generic mechanic-wise.

That's fine. More classes allow you to do more different things mechanically, or do them better because there's a class that's specialized for what you want to do. But having only a few classes available doesn't limit roleplaying, or the type of game you play.

Actually, that's one of the reasons I don't particularly care about psionics. I find the flavor contribution of psionics redundant, since I already imagine wizards and sorcerers as bending reality to their will.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-03-21, 02:30 PM
It's not just fluff. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer a bunch of more specific classes than few generic mechanic-wise.

I agree, while yes I can approximate the concept of a character who gains a limitless font of power from an infernal pact made with a demon prince by using the sorcerer class, if I have access to the Warlock class I can create a character with the same concept where the mechanics match the fluff, thus increasing the versimilitude of the character.

Likewise I could play a high dex fighter who wields light weapons and focuses on feats that enhance his mobility in combat, or I could play a swashbuckler. While they both play out the same concept, the swashbuckler has the class skills and class features to really allow my character concept to excell in the areas I wish it to focus on.

I feel that when mechanics more closely approximate concept it only improves the roleplay at the table as the Player is able to see his PCs actions play out mechanically as he envisions them conceptually. Helping him to really get into character.

Khantalas
2007-03-21, 02:31 PM
Bah again. I ban magic from my games? What's that? The greatest archetypes of D&D are knights and wizards? Go and play a psion, you arcane lover.

Aquillion
2007-03-21, 02:31 PM
Beware Mind Switch, True! You haven't seen nasty until you've seen a Psion (Telepath) Mind Switch, True (L9 Telepathy Power) a Lilitu Demon and then proceed to kill his own Body so he gains the Physical Stats and Extraordinary Powers of the new Body - Permanently. Yeah, it drops him a level to do it, but seeing what it's given him leads me to believe it was completely worth it. 17 Str, 26 Dex, 18 Con, SR, DR, Energy Immunities & Resists, Shroud Alignment, Item Use (Essentially, Unlimited UMD) and Mock Divinity (Makes him a L9 Cleric too) all for 1 dropped level. And there's probably better things to switch with when all is said and done. It's just one of those things that needs to be managed at the high end.Or just kill them and use Psychic Chirurgery, which is conveniently in the same discipline. The wording on the 'restore lost levels' isn't clear (it says that in addition to removing negative levels, it can 'restore levels lost to energy drain or a similar effect'--is this a 'similar effect?'), but it doesn't matter--Psychic Chirurgery can also 'remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a psychic power', which would include the level lost to Mind Switch, True in any case.

Another alternative if the above is disallowed for whatever reason: The wording on Mind Switch, True says "your natural body dies while the subject is in it, you immediately lose one level". So you just need a way to get the subject out for a moment, then kill your body. If you could convince an Arcane caster to cast Trap the Soul for you, that would probably work.

Hmm... what happens if you Schism, then have the Schism manifest Mind Switch? Or if you manifest Mind Switch or Mind Switch, True using a psicrystal? It says "The psicrystal is treated as the power’s originator..."

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-21, 02:44 PM
When a psionic character was introduced to one campaign I'm in, he initially stunned is all by lobbing fully augmented energy-missiles around and dealing bajillions of damage.
Then we'd go and rest and the next day he would do a bajillion more damage.
We were all thinking he was a leetle bit on the broken side until plot picked up enough for us to get several encounters in one day (and didn't get to rest for one night) and we found he was blowing most of his powerpoints for the day on these doomsday bombardments.
When he realised how low he was running, he started having to trickle out the power and give the rest of us a chance to have some fun. (Especially fun for me because I play a Warlock :smallbiggrin:)

mellowgoth
2007-03-21, 02:54 PM
Here is a bit of a variant that I use with Psionics, that can be near and dear to any DM's heart.

As a bit of a background, psionics in 1st ed AD&D, if run properly, were far more of a burden and risk than they ever where a benefit. This doens't extrapolate into 3.5 wihtout a little work, but it's fairly simple to implement.

In 1st ed, any time you use psionics, anyhting ELSE that can use psionics has a chance to 'hear' it, and come to investigate. There are plenty of psionic nasties that lurk around the etherial and astral planes, just waiting for low-level psionics and drooling. And there are plenty of nasties on the Prime Material that are small, inncuous, and hard to notice until they are eating your brain - brian moles and cerebral parasites come to mind.

To apply this to 3.5, I eliminate the "detect psionics" power. Psionic creatures can sense other psionic creatures and items at close range, even when completely passive. When a power or psi-like ability is actually USED, it is detectable by psionic creatures at a largere radius, varying with the number of power points spent. For you Eberroners, remeber that when you are sneaking up on the Reierdran fortress. This has applied a nice balance to psionics in games I have run.

If you are feeling somewhat nice (and I do this - the early playtesting i did withthe above system left the psions just a bit to vulnerable), you can allow the players to try to suppress the psychic 'noise' with a concentraion roll, or reduce the detectable radius with a feat or some such. Another feat may allow a charcter to go undetected when passive, again with a concentraion or psicraft roll.

But, in answer to the OP's purpose, psionics can give you all kinds of new handles to screw with you players...er...I mean add interesting situations to your game. What more could a DM want?

mellowgoth

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-03-21, 03:02 PM
Well, hope everyone realizes that you can go all nuts with arcane in at least the same way...


When a psionic character was introduced to one campaign I'm in, he initially stunned is all by lobbing fully augmented energy-missiles around and dealing bajillions of damage.
Then we'd go and rest and the next day he would do a bajillion more damage.
We were all thinking he was a leetle bit on the broken side until plot picked up enough for us to get several encounters in one day (and didn't get to rest for one night) and we found he was blowing most of his powerpoints for the day on these doomsday bombardments.
When he realised how low he was running, he started having to trickle out the power and give the rest of us a chance to have some fun. (Especially fun for me because I play a Warlock :smallbiggrin:)
Well, gotta ask, is he paying more power points than his level? You cannot spend more power points for a power than your level, thought most seem not to ever read that bit. That is one of the most overlooked rules and most overused reasons for psionics is overpowered, because no one reads it thoroughly.

However, yes, psions do tend to be able to go BOOM and then become useless.

okpokalypse
2007-03-21, 03:03 PM
Or just kill them and use Psychic Chirurgery, which is conveniently in the same discipline. The wording on the 'restore lost levels' isn't clear (it says that in addition to removing negative levels, it can 'restore levels lost to energy drain or a similar effect'--is this a 'similar effect?'), but it doesn't matter--Psychic Chirurgery can also 'remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a psychic power', which would include the level lost to Mind Switch, True in any case.

Psychic Chiurgery could work to get rid of the level lost, but I'm mostly thinking of the 10,000 XP casting cost. Although, a Thought Bottle would work nicely to get around that. :smallwink:


Another alternative if the above is disallowed for whatever reason: The wording on Mind Switch, True says "your natural body dies while the subject is in it, you immediately lose one level". So you just need a way to get the subject out for a moment, then kill your body. If you could convince an Arcane caster to cast Trap the Soul for you, that would probably work.

Possible. Another possibility is Imprisonment on the original body. After all, who's going to come looking for the spot a lilitu was imprisoned? Demon all compete with each other anyhow :).

But even in that eventuality, losing 10k XP, or a Level + 10k XP isn't a bad tradeoff for (in this case) 9 Levels of Cleric Progression, Unlimited UMD, DR 10 / Cold Iron, SR 11 + HD and the Various Energy Immunities & Resists. If the PC has a halfway decent Cha score, they've got a whole 2nd repotoire of spells to cast. Spells like Revivify, Cure Spells, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Divine Favor.

The Psion has a 17 Str, 26 Dex and 18 Con unbuffed, add to that the "Insight" Bonuses the Psion has, the "Sacred" Bonuses from Divine Buffs and Magic Items - and you've got a something worse than CoDZilla. This is a guy that can Schism, buff like mad, wade into combat and melee attack with his primary mind all the while manifesting with his secondary mind.

*shiver*


Hmm... what happens if you Schism, then have the Schism manifest Mind Switch? Or if you manifest Mind Switch or Mind Switch, True using a psicrystal? It says "The psicrystal is treated as the power’s originator..."

I don't think it would work any differently with Schism. The first hurdle is the effective ML is at -6. So if one could get a ML of 23, it'd be possible I guess - but the question is this... It's not that you have two minds, but that you've split your mind "into two independant parts." That just means that when you do the Mind Switch, it takes both parts - since it's still one mind.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-21, 03:08 PM
Well, gotta ask, is he paying more power points than his level? You cannot spend more power points for a power than your level, thought most seem not to ever read that bit. That is one of the most overlooked rules and most overused reasons for psionics is overpowered, because no one reads it thoroughly.

No, he was playing by the rules. He was just pumping everything to the max.



However, yes, psions do tend to be able to go BOOM and then become useless.

Well, exactly.


Well, hope everyone realizes that you can go all nuts with arcane in at least the same way...


Not exactly the same way... No matter how many first level spells you have, you can't drop five magic missiles to fling a fireball. At least not that I know of.

okpokalypse
2007-03-21, 03:16 PM
Another thing people tend to forget about psionics is their utter "stealth-casting" ability. From the XPH, p58 :

Dispense with Displays: Despite the fact that almost every power has a display, a psionic character can always choose to manifest the power without the flashy accompaniment. To manifest a power without any display (no matter how many displays it might have), a manifester must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the power). This check is part of the action of manifesting the power. If the check is unsuccessful, the power manifests normally with its display.

That's right, you can supress all displays that you're manifesting with a concentration check. That means it's VERY difficult for the enemy to identify you as the "Caster" - and especially tough if you decide to wear caster-inapprorpiate clothing (such as Armors).

This is especially great when using powers like Mind Thrust or Recall Agony on a target. No one sees anything happening, and when it does, it just makes the person being attacked look crazy (You know - walking along, and starts holding his head, screaming - or experiencing pain with no wounds to show for it, that type of thing). You can do it in front of a crowd, being off to the side and away from the target. Even the victim of the attack would find it difficult to locate you with nothing to give them any indication of Powers being used.

Dausuul
2007-03-21, 03:20 PM
That's fine. More classes allow you to do more different things mechanically, or do them better because there's a class that's specialized for what you want to do. But having only a few classes available doesn't limit roleplaying, or the type of game you play.

Actually, having only a few classes available can severely limit roleplaying, depending on which classes they are. If players are constantly forced to choose between roleplaying their characters and being effective at what they do, both the roleplaying and the game will suffer for it.

Aquillion
2007-03-21, 03:32 PM
I don't think it would work any differently with Schism. The first hurdle is the effective ML is at -6. So if one could get a ML of 23, it'd be possible I guess - but the question is this... It's not that you have two minds, but that you've split your mind "into two independant parts." That just means that when you do the Mind Switch, it takes both parts - since it's still one mind.I was thinking of regular Mind Switch (Level 6, so you can do it when your own ML is 17), just to get the person you swapped with originally out of your body for a moment so you can kill it. But now that I think about it, it wouldn't be a good idea even if it worked...


Not exactly the same way... No matter how many first level spells you have, you can't drop five magic missiles to fling a fireball. At least not that I know of.I seem to recall that there's a (broken) feat that lets you spend two spell slots on a single spell in the level above them.

But it's not the same. The problem, as others have pointed out, is that psionics don't scale. At lower levels the psion might benefit a bit from being able to blow all their PP quickly, but at higher levels arcane and divine casters will be able to cast spells equivilent to those boosted powers without having to spend anything to boost them. A high-level arcane caster gets full dice on their fireballs, magic missiles, and so on automatically every round without (realistically) having to worry about running out, while a divine caster gets the full length on their buffs; at that point, the psion is blowing (say) the equivilent cost of a level 6 spell just to get the effects that other casters get for a level 3 slot.

There are one or two broken psion abilities (like with any caster-type class), but overall they're underpowered compared to other full casters; they make up for this with a few situational perks (like the ability to cast 'silently' without metamagic.)

Mewtarthio
2007-03-21, 03:39 PM
Or just kill them and use Psychic Chirurgery, which is conveniently in the same discipline. The wording on the 'restore lost levels' isn't clear (it says that in addition to removing negative levels, it can 'restore levels lost to energy drain or a similar effect'--is this a 'similar effect?'), but it doesn't matter--Psychic Chirurgery can also 'remove any instantaneous or permanent effect caused by a psychic power', which would include the level lost to Mind Switch, True in any case.

The level lost is supposed to be akin to the level lost in resurrection. Your character level is simply decremented by one, and you cannot restore it. Think of psychic chiurgery as greater restoration, except you can also teach people new powers with it (albeit at a nasty cost).

Of course, it's all moot unless one of his players is a Telepath. Neither psychic chiurgery nor TMS is usuable by a non-telepath through any means short of UPD (Use Psionic Device) or having the power implanted at a high cost via psychic chiurgery. Both require a near-epic Telepath willing to expend lost of XP to essentially give someone else the ability to use TMS (TMS isn't the kind of common power you'd make an item out of--unless he only takes it before wiping it out via psychic reformation).


Another alternative if the above is disallowed for whatever reason: The wording on Mind Switch, True says "your natural body dies while the subject is in it, you immediately lose one level". So you just need a way to get the subject out for a moment, then kill your body. If you could convince an Arcane caster to cast Trap the Soul for you, that would probably work.

Just seal them away via Imprionment or something. And doesn't Trap the Soul trap the body as well (which never made sense to me)?

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-03-21, 03:43 PM
Yes, if you can make the concentration check it is handy.

However...

Psionicists do not get familiars.
Psionicists cannot 'scribe scrolls'.
Psionicists do not get anywhere near the same ammount of abilities, nor any 0-levelers.

It balances out.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-03-21, 03:45 PM
Why use psionics? I consider using psionics because they're a lot better at representing a sorcerer than the half-assed sorcerer class.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-03-21, 03:51 PM
Where VT was poetic and filled with finesse, I aim to misbehave. You want convincing? Here's why you should use psionics:

THEY ARE AWESOME!!

What are you doing standing there? Are you happy with that friggin' spellbook? Your holy symbol of Pelor irks me! Flee the confines of arcane and divine magic! Screw spell slots! USE POWER POINTS!

Do you play video games? Then you already know more about psionics than you think you do!

COME ON! All the cool kids are doing it! If you use psionics in your next game, I will give you a cookie, and maybe a nice bottle of sparkling grape juice. OBEY ME! DO NOT DENY MY COMMANDS!

STIMULATE THE ECONOMY! Buy the XPH! Buy Lords of Madness! Then sell your house, sell your stock, sell your children, because you won't need to eat again, since you'll become an elan, and you'll live forever!

Aboleths are giant fish that use psionics to make people sad, and sometimes not alive. Tsochar aren't psionic, but they have a cool name.

If you use psionics from now on, I'll throw in a set of glow bones absolutely free!

Glow bones, glow bones, glow bones!


Don't listen to the heretics and non-believers! They may be entitled to their flawed opinions, but that shouldn't stop you from HATING THEM! Let your hatred flow forth, and JOIN THE DARKSIDE!! If you use psionics, you get a black cape and red lightsaber! And Luke Skywalker does the voice of the joker! Even HE turned evil! WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR!?

Gah! You people make me peevish! You rustle my cattle! I'm sick and tired of people recoiling at the very mention of the glorious powers of the mind! These are probably the same people that order the same thing at the restaurant, EVERY SINGLE TIME!! YOU ARE DYING! LIVE LIFE FOR ONCE!! TRY SOMETHING NEW!! TIME IS RUNNING OUT! PEOPLE ARE HAVING BABIES! WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF FOOD! QUICK, BEFORE MORE PENGUINS DIE, PLAY PSIONICS!! JUST DO IT!!! AAAAAIIIIIRRRRGHH!!!

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 03:53 PM
And Luke Skywalker does the voice of the joker!

That's so awesome.

Assassinfox
2007-03-21, 03:58 PM
If we don't use psionics, the Sorcerer Kings have already won.

Draz74
2007-03-21, 04:32 PM
Did it ever make sense to you, just once, why a Wizard (Level 15 or so) can't give up two 4th-level spells to memorize an extra 5th-level spell?

Me neither.

This is one of the reasons psionics appeals to me.

Also the way that Psionic Feats let non-casters do supernatural-ish things without it making no sense. (They don't need powers or PP, they just have nice balanced rules to let them do amazing things like run on walls or shatter an object.) It's exactly like the Monk was supposed to be ... except, wait, it's not as confined to Asian-flavor either.

okpokalypse
2007-03-21, 04:41 PM
The level lost is supposed to be akin to the level lost in resurrection. Your character level is simply decremented by one, and you cannot restore it. Think of psychic chiurgery as greater restoration, except you can also teach people new powers with it (albeit at a nasty cost).

Technically, a Thought Bottle (Complete Arcane) would reverse it.


Of course, it's all moot unless one of his players is a Telepath.

True, but I've found that Telepath and Shaper are by far the two most common Disciplines taken. Since Greater Metamorphosis got nerfed, no one in their right mind takes Egoist (they just Expand Knowledge to get Fission), and there's enough Non-Kineticist DD stuff to make it rather repetitive - unless you're in it for the Telekinesis. Seer is nice, but tends to slow down the game a lot when their exclusive powers are used - and DM's tend to get annoyed with them quickly (often citing them as "Plot Reveal Devices"). Nomads are also nice, but tend to be more 1-dimensional in their exclusive powers.

Golthur
2007-03-21, 04:41 PM
That's so awesome.
It *IS* awesome, and gave me new respect for Mark Hamil's acting abilities.

headwarpage
2007-03-21, 04:48 PM
Actually, having only a few classes available can severely limit roleplaying, depending on which classes they are. If players are constantly forced to choose between roleplaying their characters and being effective at what they do, both the roleplaying and the game will suffer for it.

Yes and no. If you don't have classes capable of covering all the major party roles, that's obviously going to be an issue. Beyond that, less so. You can make a few classes suit a wide variety of characters, the problem is that WotC has published so many splatbooks. So there's no reason to make your swashbuckling character a fighter/rogue (or whatever) instead of a Swashbuckler. Trying to play a swashbuckling fighter/rogue when there's a perfectly good Swashbuckler class right there is likely to be frustrating and pointless. But if the Swashbuckler had never been published, playing a swashbuckling fighter/rogue would probably be a fun and rewarding experience.

This is entirely off-topic, though, so I'm going to let it drop now.

okpokalypse
2007-03-21, 04:51 PM
Did it ever make sense to you, just once, why a Wizard (Level 15 or so) can't give up two 4th-level spells to memorize an extra 5th-level spell?

Me neither.

This is one of the reasons psionics appeals to me.

One interesting thing regarding PSPs as well:

A Psion gets 343 PSP at L20. A Psion @L20 w/ 40 Int gets +150 PSP.

A Wizard, if you were to convert his Spells at each Level into PSP Equivalents, gets 344 PSP*. A Wizard's Bonus Spells from 40 Int, converted would be +220 PSP.

If you were so inclined, you could easily assign a pool point value for each level based on the amount of converted PSPs the caster has (based on spell allotment) and allow them to free-form memorize spells of whatever levels they want so long as they do not exceed the maximum. I'm actually pretty sure this is a Variant somewhere as well. Unearthed Arcana maybe...

* Specialists get the Equivalent of 430, and if you were a Focused Specialist, that would be the equivalent of 516.

Psion's have the ability to augment their powers, but they have significantly less staying power due to that when all is said and done. Especially when one considers that a Wizard is spending the equivalent of 5 PSP for a 10d6 Lightning Bolt, and a Psion would have to spend 10 PSP for a 10d6 Lightning Bolt.

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 05:15 PM
Okay comparing a 10th lvl psion vs a 10th lvl sorcerer with damage spells.
18 Int+2 lvl+4 item=24 Int for Psion
18 Cha+2 lvl+4 item=24 Cha for Sorcerer

Note I am doing psion vs sorcerer for while the psion is a sorcerer+wizard hybrid I feel psion is closer to sorcerer. I could have done wilder but I don't like wilders and in my mind psion is closer to sorcerer than wild is to sorcerer mechanically if not flavor wise.

And yes Damage spells is not what a sorcerer should do (and what a psion shouldn't do unless he is novaing) but I am doing this for its easy mental comparrison.

Sorcerer

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/6042/sorcererdamagespellssv3.jpg

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/6605/psiondamagespellsgm2.jpg

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 05:19 PM
Note psionic damage spells are mostly comparable to arcane damage spells. In fact psion does more damage and higher dc but it burns up the power points like candy.

Now psion vs arcane spells is very different if you don't use damage spells. Arcane spells are just written so much better, so much more cheesy stuff in core and especially not core with arcane.

Also another thing about metapsionics they require expending your psionic focus. It takes a full round action to recover your psionic focus. (There is a feat that makes it a move action, another allows you to store your psionic focus in your psionic crystal). Sorcerer fullround metamagic casting is a lot faster, and with the new rapid metamagic feat which the sorcerer can get at 9th lvl or the PHB2 substitution option sorcerer is alot faster than psion on applying meta feats.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-21, 05:24 PM
Also the way that Psionic Feats let non-casters do supernatural-ish things without it making no sense. (They don't need powers or PP, they just have nice balanced rules to let them do amazing things like run on walls or shatter an object.) It's exactly like the Monk was supposed to be ... except, wait, it's not as confined to Asian-flavor either.

I thought that character had to have a PP reserve to take [Psionic] feats. Checking the SRD I see that actually they have to have be able to manifest powers or have Psi-like abilities to take them.

Ramza00
2007-03-21, 05:28 PM
I thought that character had to have a PP reserve to take [Psionic] feats. Checking the SRD I see that actually they have to have be able to manifest powers or have Psi-like abilities to take them.
There are a list of feats in xph that you don't need to be psionic for.




General
Antipsionic Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#antipsionicMagic)
Autonomous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#autonomous)
Chaotic Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#chaoticMind)
Cloak Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance)
Closed Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#closedMind)
Deadly Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#deadlyPrecision)
Force Of Will (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#forceOfWill)
Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot)
Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind)
Mental Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mentalResistance)
Mind Over Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody)
Open Minded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded)
Psionic Affinity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicAffinity)
Psionic Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicHole)
Rapid Metabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#rapidMetabolism)
Reckless Offense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#recklessOffense)
Sidestep Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#sidestepCharge)
Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill)
Wild Talent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#wildTalent) (Makes you psionic)

its_all_ogre
2007-03-21, 05:33 PM
yeah they need power points, so what?
a fighter could take wild talent as a general feat and then access those feats, you just need power points, not any powers to use them you know!
i find that psionics is balanced and generally underpowered compared to arcane/divine casters.
do not know about the psychic warrior, though i use them regularly as bad guys. most of the psi-classes have the ability to dish out large damage in one-off blasts and then suddenly drop in efficiency after one or two rounds.
makes them scary npcs but average-poor pcs, a fighter/barbarian still does more damage than a psychic warrior due to less MAD, but the mobility of the psychic warrior makes him much better for higher level play.
most of the psi-PRc are sucky, none give full caster progression.
at really low levels wilders do tons of direct damage with energy rays, with the choice of doing a few really potent blasts or moderate blasts all day, by using wild surge. at higher levels their few power available let them down though i imagine.

ocato
2007-03-21, 05:59 PM
Okay, a lot of my information was based on 3.0 Psionics and campaigns where nothing had any defense against psionics. I see they balanced it a bit.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 06:02 PM
Okay, a lot of my information was based on 3.0 Psionics and campaigns where nothing had any defense against psionics. I see they balanced it a bit.

A bit? A LOT. 3.0 Psionics to 3.5 Psionics is like comparing a pound of fool's gold to a pound of gold.

Khantalas
2007-03-21, 06:04 PM
Or an ounce of fool's gold to a pound of gold.

ocato
2007-03-21, 06:05 PM
okay, sorry.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 06:07 PM
Or an ounce of fool's gold to a pound of gold.

I wouldn't go that far. 3.5 Psionics is terrific, but not perfect.

Khantalas
2007-03-21, 06:11 PM
No, it is 3.0 Psionics that was terrible. Have you seen the post about what it would be like if Turn Undead was like Psychic Combat?

Assassinfox
2007-03-21, 06:14 PM
No, it is 3.0 Psionics that was terrible. Have you seen the post about what it would be like if Turn Undead was like Psychic Combat?

Sounds interesting! Tell me more!

Douglas
2007-03-21, 06:16 PM
No, but I'm guessing it's something along the lines of "all undead in a 60 ft radius are paralyzed for the rest of combat". I think even 3.0 was much better than 2e and earlier, but I know from experience that Mind Blast was still way too good and could be gotten way too early in 3.0. Of course, that's still better than my vague memory of figuring out that a 2e psion could get Disintigrate a level or two before he'd have enough power points to actually use it.

Khantalas
2007-03-21, 06:16 PM
I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

Yeah .

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 06:21 PM
Yeah, it's pretty much like that.

Douglas
2007-03-21, 06:21 PM
Hehe, yeah, that's pretty accurate. Though extending the analogy would lead to most campaigns having almost no undead and the player gleefully using High Holey Hokey Pokey to turn supposedly challenging fights into cakewalks, and doing it several levels before he actually got any 5th level spells.

Assassinfox
2007-03-21, 06:21 PM
That was amazing.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-21, 06:35 PM
Another thing which hits the Psion hard is the fact that using a Metapsionic feat not only costs extra PP (and this counts to your maximum number of PP to manifest a power), but it also blows your psionic focus, which you have to blow a full round action (or a feat and a move action) to regain. This limits the Metamagic Abuse which Wizards are infamous for.

Green Bean
2007-03-23, 04:17 AM
Other members seems to have well covered mechanical reasons why psionics should be used, but psions can be satisfying to play from a story perspective as well. I mean a fighter or a wizard are using the same attacks or spells on random encouters as they are on the campaign end-boss (though, admittedly, the wizard will be using more high level spells). With a psion you can do stuff like dropping more of your points into a powerful, last ditch attack, or using overchannel to go beyond your normal limits at heavy cost. To me it just seems very narratively satisfying to be doing stuff you wouldn't do normally because there's more at stake.

Zincorium
2007-03-23, 05:19 AM
Yeah .

Just to join in, yeah.

I was somewhat put out when our main DM decided that while we were going to be allowed to use psionics and they would be used against us, which is all well and good, and that we were going to use the expanded psionics handbook (3.5), which is also good, but he was going to use the psionic combat system from 3.0 'because it was so cool' and expand on it to mean that psionic powers all were useless against non-psionic characters because of the 'non-psionic buffer' BS that WotC came up with just for that section. Applying it to all powers, not just ones that affected someone else's brain.

I'm glad I did not have my heart set on playing a psion, because that might have ruined the experience for me permanently.

marjan
2007-03-23, 06:32 AM
Convince me to Allow Psionics
You will never make me convince you!!!!!

This doesn't make much sense, does it?

NullAshton
2007-03-23, 06:48 AM
Another thing which hits the Psion hard is the fact that using a Metapsionic feat not only costs extra PP (and this counts to your maximum number of PP to manifest a power), but it also blows your psionic focus, which you have to blow a full round action (or a feat and a move action) to regain. This limits the Metamagic Abuse which Wizards are infamous for.

Which is offset by the fact that the extra power points are equivalent to extra levels. That, and all psionic characters should have psionic meditation anyway.

There's also a few interesting differences. For example, Quicken Power. Increases the power points you use by 6, but Quicken Spell uses four levels. It's just... different, that's all.

Hmmm... wilders can at high levels use an assimilate and then a quickened assimilate, for 40d6 damage and some nifty bonuses...

Ramza00
2007-03-23, 08:48 AM
Which is offset by the fact that the extra power points are equivalent to extra levels. That, and all psionic characters should have psionic meditation anyway.

There's also a few interesting differences. For example, Quicken Power. Increases the power points you use by 6, but Quicken Spell uses four levels. It's just... different, that's all.

Hmmm... wilders can at high levels use an assimilate and then a quickened assimilate, for 40d6 damage and some nifty bonuses...
Just to further emphasize a thing about psionic. You can only augment or use metapsionics up to your manifester level (just like you can only do metamagic to your maximun spell slot)

okpokalypse
2007-03-23, 09:26 AM
Just to further emphasize a thing about psionic. You can only augment or use metapsionics up to your manifester level (just like you can only do metamagic to your maximun spell slot)

Well, you can boost it a bit. With the proper feats and items you can get a ML of > 25 at the high end, and being powers aren't capped, those are 25d6+25 Fireballs.

Of course, your PSPs go away REAL fast when that happens, so it's a very fair trade-off. Psions are really only good for 2 combats if they go all out every time.

okpokalypse
2007-03-23, 09:43 AM
Which is offset by the fact that the extra power points are equivalent to extra levels. That, and all psionic characters should have psionic meditation anyway.

There's also a few interesting differences. For example, Quicken Power. Increases the power points you use by 6, but Quicken Spell uses four levels. It's just... different, that's all.

Actually, it's pretty much the same if you make the assumption that Expending the Psychic Focus is the equivalent of +1 SL. We already know every 2 PSPs is the equivalent of upping a Spell Level.

Meta-Magic Maximized = 3 SL, Meta-Psionic Maximize = 4 PSP + Focus
Meta-Magic Empower = 2 SL, Meta-Psionic Empower = 2 PSP + Focus
Meta-Magic Quicken = 4 SL, Meta-Psionic Quicken = 6 PSP + Focus

To be honest, I think the Focus thing hurts, since gaining it is a move-action w/ feat. But then again, I guess that's why Schism came about...

[Move] Gain Focus
[Swift] Quickened Power
[Standard] Gain Focus (Secondary Mind)
[Standard] Other Meta-Enhanced Power (Primary Mind)

This is a relatively efficient way to get off two powers - both with Meta-Effects - from a full ML caster, since it uses the Schism'd mind to regain focus. One can start doing this at L7, or L9 if they're not the right Discipline and take a Feat to learn Schism.

Then at L13 (or L15) it gets more interesting with Fission - where you make a 2nd you, at -2 Levels. Not you can, in theory, cap off 4 Meta-Enhanced Powers per round.

Ramza00
2007-03-23, 12:42 PM
Well, you can boost it a bit. With the proper feats and items you can get a ML of > 25 at the high end, and being powers aren't capped, those are 25d6+25 Fireballs.

Of course, your PSPs go away REAL fast when that happens, so it's a very fair trade-off. Psions are really only good for 2 combats if they go all out every time.
Yes you can, but its still extremely hard to do. (Except with wilder who can boost her powers by up to six levels but she has to deal with wildsurge and the low powers known, only 11)

PinkysBrain
2007-03-23, 01:47 PM
There are no metapsionic rods BTW.

Marius
2007-03-23, 01:51 PM
To be honest, I think the Focus thing hurts, since gaining it is a move-action w/ feat. But then again, I guess that's why Schism came about...

[Move] Gain Focus
[Swift] Quickened Power
[Standard] Gain Focus (Secondary Mind)
[Standard] Other Meta-Enhanced Power (Primary Mind)

This is a relatively efficient way to get off two powers - both with Meta-Effects - from a full ML caster, since it uses the Schism'd mind to regain focus. One can start doing this at L7, or L9 if they're not the right Discipline and take a Feat to learn Schism.

Then at L13 (or L15) it gets more interesting with Fission - where you make a 2nd you, at -2 Levels. Not you can, in theory, cap off 4 Meta-Enhanced Powers per round.

There're more and better ways to do it: Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment + Psionic Meditation + Schism.