Do sorcerers NEED magical blood?

[RoboEmperor]

The DM I am playing with says sorcerers need dragon blood or fiend blood or something and are therefore "rare", but after re-reading the player's handbook, I don't think it's true. At best magical blood makes a child more likely to be a sorcerer, not a requirement, because my interpretation is that a child just understands magic implicitly and is therefore a sorcerer just like how a gifted musician would understand pianos and be able to write his own songs on the fly unlike normal people who have to study and practice like crazy. He then brought in the pathfinder stuff and bloodlines and said 3.5 and pathfinders are basically the same thing (we argued over arcana bloodline the most). What are your opinions? Can someone be a sorcerer without having some sort of special magical thing that's out of their control happen to them?

[Coidzor]

The DM I am playing with says sorcerers need dragon blood or fiend blood or something and are therefore "rare", but after re-reading the player's handbook, I don't think it's true. At best magical blood makes a child more likely to be a sorcerer, not a requirement, because my interpretation is that a child just understands magic implicitly and is therefore a sorcerer just like how a gifted musician would understand pianos and be able to write his own songs on the fly unlike normal people who have to study and practice like crazy. He then brought in the pathfinder stuff and bloodlines and said 3.5 and pathfinders are basically the same thing (we argued over arcana bloodline the most). What are your opinions?

I don't really see why it matters, it's left vague enough that even the most tenuous connection could be used to justify it even if playing under a strict "must be related to something magic in some way" interpretation.

The idea that Pathfinder fluff is applicable to 3.5 is... consternating, though.


Can someone be a sorcerer without having some sort of special magical thing that's out of their control happen to them?

Not without saying that simply being able to naturally and intuitively use magic as part of their nature isn't something special and magical that's happened to them in and of itself.

If we say that, then sure. Why some people can cast spells isn't something that has to be explained or even explored in the game's metaplot.

[RoboEmperor]

Thanks for the reply. Next game the DM is planning is a "commoner's" game where no special guy is allowed, i.e. any L.A. races, or rare classes. I'm playing a wizard so I'm good but one of my group members is wanting to roll a sorcerer. DM said it's fine, but fluff wise he is adamant sorcerers are not "common" and he's letting it slide, while the other guy is arguing sorcerers are as common as bards, especially since bard's magic comes from the "heart" (aka personality aka charisma), so why not sorcerers too? I took his side and we've been debating since. It's nothing serious as he is letting the guy roll a sorcerer, but I just wanted to hear other people's thoughts on this matter.

[jedipotter]

Well.....I kinda say that everyone in a D&D world has ''magic in their blood''. Magic is a basic part of life in a D&D universe. So all life, really everything, has a 'bit' of magic.

Sorcerers are just the rare ones that have enough that they can use this natural magic. But it is just like any other ''genetic'' gift.

A great comparison would be beauty. Everyone has a little beauty. To use fictional characters: Jabba the Hutt has a beauty of 1. Luke Skywalker or Princess Leia gets the average 5. Black Widow 7. Hermione Granger 10. So just say that only the ''10'' can be sorcerers. So that takes everyone, down to a couple dozen ''most beautiful'' So that gives you Jakie (that 70's show), Mystique/Kandace(x-men/hunger games), 13(house), Selene(Underworld), Hermione Granger, Megan(Transformers 1-2), Penny(Big Bang Theory), Lt. Uhura(Star Trek(new)), Agent Sarah Walker(Chuck), and Haley(Modern Family).

So they would have the right amount of magic to be Sorcerers, but everyone else falls short, but they still have a bit of magic.

[SiuiS]

No, sorcerers do not need magical bloodlines and that's always frustrated me. Even moreso that they made the non-magical bloodline into a bloodline in pathfinder.

If the DM is bringing in rules from pathfinder though, that's different. And if the DM means "in my games, sorcerers need magic blood" then you're stuck with it.

[Milo v3]

If anything the flavour text of sorcerer from the players handbook actually suggests that most humanoids likely have dragon blood in them. So according to fluff, dragonblood is common not rare. It also states that blood is only a theory.

Edit: also according to the DMG a small city should have 896 level one sorcerers at minimum. Unless I used the tables wrong.

[TheCrowing1432]

I dont think I understand the question?

The entire fluff of a sorceror is that they are innately magical. They cast spells without any proper training.

Even real life prodigies have to learn the basics, and train to hone their craft.

Even genii still need to be taught what math and science are.

Even musical genii need to learn the basic notes and stuff, they just pick it up quickly.

Sorcerers arent like that. They literally take their own innate power and use it to fuel spells, plus add in the fact that Sorcerers are eligible for the dragon feats.

So I would have to rule that every time you take a Sorcerer level, somewhere way back in your lineage, some demon blood or dragon blood got in you to awaken your powers.

You're not just "good at magic". Its an innate intrinsic part of your very soul/being/blood whatever.

Being good at magic makes you a wizard.

If you want the fluff of a wizard, why not just play wizard?

[RoboEmperor]

If you want the fluff of a wizard, why not just play wizard?

The guy in my group absolutely hates the vancian spell system while loving the wizard fluff, which is why he's going sorcerer with reserve feats. He hates luck, and if the magical blood is required, his character HAS to be lucky to have such a lineage. It's like no different from having a royal lineage, super rare, at least in his opinion and my DM's.

Personally Vancian spell system gets on my nerves too, but I realized I use the same spells 99% of the time so it's not an issue for me.

Interesting opinions from everyone, but this thread is gonna depress him for sure XD.

[Jeff the Green]

The guy in my group absolutely hates the vancian spell system while loving the wizard fluff, which is why he's going sorcerer with reserve feats. He hates luck, and if the magical blood is required, his character HAS to be lucky to have such a lineage. It's like no different from having a royal lineage, super rare, at least in his opinion and my DM's.

Personally Vancian spell system gets on my nerves too, but I realized I use the same spells 99% of the time so it's not an issue for me.

Interesting opinions from everyone, but this thread is gonna depress him for sure XD.

What about a psion? From what I understand, anyone is supposed to be able to master it with enough navel-gazing meditation.

[Psyren]

Sorcerers are pretty rare in cities per the tables (rarer than clerics and wizards.) Druids are even rarer, but this could easily be due to most of those living in the wild.



Edit: also according to the DMG a small city should have 896 level one sorcerers at minimum. Unless I used the tables wrong.

Yeah, I'd say you're way off. Even adding up the sorcerers from every single high population district I didn't get anywhere close to that number. For a city of roughly 19,000 people I'm getting fewer than 80 sorcerers total, less than 0.5%.

[With a box]

it's pathfinder stuff but if you wizard fluff and spontanios casting, Arcanist (http://http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/arcanist) is worth consider.

An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. An arcanist must prepare her spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, her spells are not expended when they're cast. Instead, she can cast any spell that she has prepared consuming a spell slot of the appropriate level, assuming she hasn't yet used up her spell slots per day for that level.

[Feint's End]

What about a psion? From what I understand, anyone is supposed to be able to master it with enough navel-gazing meditation.

Well if you are exceptionally smart that is.

But generally I second this. If your friend hates vancian casting why not play a psion. They have a different fluff but you could use the rune magic reflavour from ultimate psionics.

[Milo v3]

Yeah, I'd say you're way off. Even adding up the sorcerers from every single high population district I didn't get anywhere close to that number. For a city of roughly 19,000 people I'm getting fewer than 80 sorcerers total, less than 0.5%.

.... mental fatigue seems to have made me go two seventh levels to fourteen sixth levels... *Facepalm*

Should be 128 first level's at lowest, and 1024 first level's at highest. Though, using the table I'm getting 254 sorcerers in a small city at minimum.

Edit: Also, that would be a large city according to the DMG and should have 1536 first level sorcerers at least... What are you going off?

[Taveena]

Arcanist does seem to have the playstyle and fluff you're hoping for... but it's also the most powerful class in all of Pathfinder with all the power of a Wizard and Sorceror combined.

And then they also gave it more class features.

So, uh, yeah, it's good if you want to play Exalted d20?

[Feint's End]

Arcanist does seem to have the playstyle and fluff you're hoping for... but it's also the most powerful class in all of Pathfinder with all the power of a Wizard and Sorceror combined.

And then they also gave it more class features.

So, uh, yeah, it's good if you want to play Exalted d20?

Actually arcanist is weaker than the wizard.

Why?

Because wizards can prepare more different spells per day and most importantly they get more daily spells via high intelligence.

Aha you might say now ... but arcanists do that too.

Well .... yes and no. Arcanists get more spells per day but the amount of spells they can prepare is defined by another list which is static. Wizards on the other hand not only get more spells per day with higher int but also can prepare more different spells.

It is true that arcanists are more powerful than sorcerers (obviously)but they are actually still quite a bit weaker than wizards.

For example: at level 20 an arcanist can prepare 3 different spells while a wizard with 36 int and a specialised school can prepare 7 different spells. Guess who is more versatile.

[HighWater]

Okay, let's deconstruct the argument. The DM's argument rides on two assumptions:
- The claim that Sorcerers must have Dragonblood to become a Sorcerer.
- The claim that Dragonblood is rare.

We will find that both are false, using the Players Handbook and Math.

First the Dragonblood-required claim. I quote from the Players Handbook fluff-section on Sorcerers (emphasis mine):


Some sorcerers claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins. That claim may be true in some cases (...) and it's difficult to prove that a given sorcerer does not have a dragon ancestor. (...) Others hold that the claim is either an unsubstantiated boast on the part of certain sorcerers or envious gossip on the part of those who lack the sorcerer's gift.
Basically, the whole theory that Sorcerer's must have dragon blood as the source of their power is, according to the PHB, just one poorly substantiated theory of how their power might have come to be.
That said, the DM may like the idea so much that he turns it into an actual requirement that is enforced, but it's not a direct 3.5 requirement (the fluff-statement is much too weak).

The second claim is easily countered with math:
The theory-requirement is not that a parent or grandparent of the sorcerer is a Dragon. It's that somewhere in those countless generations that have come before, one person did boink a dragon.

Say that each couple gets two-and-a-half children that live to reproduce another two-and-a-half children each. (This is a species-survival requirement, if each coupling of humans produced less than 2 offspring, eventually humanity would die out. 2 children is the absolute minimum and it should be higher because human populations tend to grow and because dragonblood is supposed to make you superior. So I put it at the awkward 2.5.) This growthfactor has been adjusted for excess death (not everyone lives to reproduce or reproduces, while others get more children).

We get the following number of dragon-blooded:
Generation 0 (Dragon+human): 0 dragonblooded (not counting the Dragon)
Generation 1: 2.5 dragonblooded (yes, awkward but we're talking averages here)
Generation 2: 6.25 dragonblooded
Generation 5: 97.66 dragonblooded
Generation 10: 9536.74... dragonblooded
Generation 20: roughly 91 million dragonblooded.

If we assume that a single generation is +-25 years, we arrive at the conclusion that a single dragon already provides dragonblood to 9.500 humans after only 250 years, which explodes to 91 million after 500 years. This is assuming that the Dragon lost interest in humans after their first human partner passed away. And because Dragons can age to be well over 1000 years, a single Dragon with an interest in humans could spawn several 'bloodlines' that contain Dragonblood while the first bloodline rests at 91 million humans after only 500 years.

Dragonblood is not rare. In all likelihood, a very large fraction of the human population has it. This leads to the logical conclusion that not all dragonblooded become sorcerers. This is backed up by the complete lack of fluff stating that sorcerers can only be born to other sorcerers.

In other words. Your sorcerer friend shouldn't need an "exception".

[RoboEmperor]

Our group is 3.5 not pathfinder for a lot of reasons, but yeah he'll like arcanist.

He doesn't like psionics because of the usually psionics reasons XD.
1. Need to learn a new system
2. It's not magic, it's... sci-fi?
3. He likes the normal wizard magic style

HighWater's post is nice, I'll show it to my DM and him in our next session, unless they check their emails XD.

Our DM agrees sorcerer blood need not be dragon, but he believes it has to be at least something else, like demons or something, but despite that your math should prove enough that sorcerers are common so it all shouldn't be an issue. Thanks!

[Milo v3]

2. It's not magic, it's... sci-fi?

*Fetchs popcorn and waits for the coming rant*

[Feint's End]

*Fetchs popcorn and waits for the coming rant*

This makes me angryyyy :smallfurious:

No but seriously. Your friend is wrong. I'll just leave it at that.:smallamused:

Move on with the thread now.

[atemu1234]

It's not true that Sorcerers are good at magic without training. They are talented at it without training. A wizard draws his power from outside, then uses it. A Sorcerer has some internal magic; but this isn't necessarily from being descended from something. Basically, anyone can become a sorcerer, because by this point there is something magical in everyone in D&D; by this point dragons have bred so thoroughly into the nondragon populous that everyone can channel energy. The same goes for about any bloodline, really.

[Andezzar]

3. He likes the normal wizard magic styleDidn't you say the player hates the Vancian casting? That's pretty much what makes up any D&D casting. What's it about the wizard magic he likes? While it will be a somewhat newish system, he might be interested in the Spell Point (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) variant.

[HighWater]

HighWater's post is nice, I'll show it to my DM and him in our next session, unless they check their emails XD.

Our DM agrees sorcerer blood need not be dragon, but he believes it has to be at least something else, like demons or something, but despite that your math should prove enough that sorcerers are common so it all shouldn't be an issue. Thanks!
Great to be of use!

Some more notes:

- Generation 30: 8.67 * 10^11th dragonblooded (that's 867 billion potentially unique descendents).
The number of potential descendents has become truly ridiculous here, as we completely eclipse the number of humans on present day Earth in only 750 years of dragonblooded x nondragonblooded-breeding.

The "flaw" lies in the assumption that all dragonblooded will only mate with nondragonblooded. As the math shows, this will quickly become unlikely if not just completely impossible. This means that at some point, those with dragonblood will have to mate with others with dragonblood for the very reason that there's nobody without dragonblood around. Because human population doesn't grow with the same fraction as being dragonblooded (it takes 2 humans to make 2.5 humans under the proposed reproductionrate math, so while "dragonblooded" potentially expands at 2.5x, humanity only expands at 1.25x) dragonblooded will quickly run out of potential non-dragonblooded mates.

There will come a time that all humans are likely to have dragonblood in their ancestry (often along several lines) even if only a single dragon (or demon or whatever) was ever involved, barring complete isolation of genetic pools or dedicated extermination of bloodlines. If there are more dragons or demons that have crossed with humans, this will happen more quickly.
Dragonblood must breed with dragonblood eventually, this is okay and won't lead to ill effects as long as the line-crossing is separated by several generations.

So once more, onto the breach!
- Pretty much anyone in DnD is likely to have some dragonblood (or demonblood) somewhere in their ancestry if any coupling between a dragon or demon and a human ever took place. It is more likely that any random Joe off the street has "magic in the blood" than that he somehow doesn't.

So how come only some manage to tap into it on their own (Sorcerers)?

Being a sorcerer is rare, but not for the reasons your DM proposed. Having the talents and opportunities to become a Sorcere is about as rare as being able to become a wizard or a cleric or even a fighter (maybe a bit more so). This is due not to the rarity of having magic in the blood, but due to the fact that being able to take up a PC-class already means that any given character is very special. This goes for all player handbook classes and the sorcerer is no exception. Sorcerers are top-of-the-pile in being in touch with their inner magic, Wizards are the very best in the expensive (time and money) scholarly study of magic, Fighters are top-dog in their talent, training and dedication to bashing things, Clerics are disproportionately in contact with the Divine and Rogues are the crème de la crème for their knack towards sneakiness.

Therefore, if your DM allows Wizards, Fighters, Rogues and Clerics in a "common man campaign", he should also allow Sorcerers.


Examples how PC-class characters are special:
How is a Wizard special?
- Requires a (much) higher than average Intelligence to learn the weird gestures, incantations and scriblings from archaic writings,
- Requires years of study to "unlock" level 1,
- Requires boatloads of money for tutoring and equipment to get to level 1,
- Requires an already skilled (and rare) tutor willing to bother with an apprentice,
- Etc.
Wizards benefit from a massive headstart in life (very rich parents, or extreme luck in finding a tutor), combined with a high intelligence and a fascination for books and other stuffy things. This allows them to learn how to manipulate magic.

How is a Rogue special?
- Somehow capable of learning where to precisely hit someone who is unable to dodge for extra effectiveness (sneak attack).
- Able to find traps others are literally unable to find without magic (trapfinding).
- Able to completely dodge area of effect damage that would hit others (evading a fireball).
- Can try to evade danger even when completely taken off guard (uncanny dodge).
- A special knack for getting good at a wide variety of "Skills" (massive skilllist and skillpoints),
- Etc
- Self-taught!
Rogues are capable of learning tricks and feats that no commoner could ever hope to master.

How is a Cleric special?
- Anyone can worship a Deity, but only a few manage to channel its power. Clerics somehow manage to do that.
- This Divine power allows them strange control over undead, who are a constant danger to human society.
- Requires an above-average insight into how the world works as well as self-control (Wisdom).
- Requires teaching by others into the realm of the Divine. (Likely to cost money, or at least time.)
- They still fight pretty well!
These are people that the gods themselves pay special attention to!

How is a Fighter special?
A bit harder, since it is such a gimped class, but in theory:
- The very best martial characters in DnD should be Fighters and Fighters should be the very best martial Characters.
- Nobody fights as well as a Fighter does! No commoner could ever hope to be as effective with weapons as a fighter, nor be able to take such a beating and live.
- Has above average physical scores.
- Needs to be trained by others, though some are self-taught.
Fighters have an exceptional talent and training for weapon combat.

How is a Sorcerer special?
- "Needs"* to have the same magic bloodline pretty much everyone in the world probably has.
- Must have greater than average influence on the world and others (higher than average charisma).
- Needs to somehow get in touch with their inner bloodmagic (through charisma).
- Requires no other social standing or whatever to get their training done. They are self-taught!
Sorcerers have an exceptional talent to manipulate magic, without all the crazy theory-crafting that Wizards require.

I really don't see why Sorcerers are more "special" than any other PHB class (I didn't do all of them because of time and because nobody'd read that. This post is already much too long). They are in the PHB for crying out loud, that should be a testament to how "common" they are for something as rare as a PC-class!

*Depends on DM interpretation of the Sorcerer fluff. My own sorcerer and any sorcerer in the campagins I run, lack any explicit reference to Dragon or Outsider-blood.

[Andezzar]

the problem with the whole "members of PC classes are special" argument is that you make self taught people basically impossible. Then there is the Barbarian class. How is a member of that class so much different from all the other tribal people?

I very much prefer the approach that taking PC classes require a certain mindset. Such people must be inclined to (for want of a better short description) go murderhobo. While the life of a commoner, expert or adept will be a lot less glamorous, it is also a lot safer. Additionally those classes will probably prepare you better for a lot of jobs around town than the PC classes.

[AvatarVecna]

Additionally those classes will probably prepare you better for a lot of jobs around town than the PC classes.

I disagree with this: PC classes tend to get have more skill points, higher attributes, more spells of higher level, more proficiencies, and more money. There is nothing an NPC class can do better. That being said, what PC wants to waste their power being the best farmer in the world, or the most skilled town guard in all of creation?

Of course, then we come to the other thing you said: namely, that PCs are people who aren't content with the normal. My point is that PC classes can prepare you for "around town" jobs and roles, but no true PC would ever do so. It's not that they can't, but that they won't.

[Urpriest]

.... mental fatigue seems to have made me go two seventh levels to fourteen sixth levels... *Facepalm*

Should be 128 first level's at lowest, and 1024 first level's at highest. Though, using the table I'm getting 254 sorcerers in a small city at minimum.

Edit: Also, that would be a large city according to the DMG and should have 1536 first level sorcerers at least... What are you going off?

A small city has two Sorcerors of maximum level 10. That gives you four of max level 5, eight of max level 2, and sixteen of max level 1. No idea where you're getting your numbers from.

[Shining Wrath]

Fluff-wise, I've always felt that wizards do magic, but sorcerers *are* magic. Like a pixie, or a ghost, magic is intrinsic to their very nature.

Does this require magical DNA? Not necessarily. Something could have happened to the sorcerer early in life, or even pre-natal, that changed them into a being naturally attuned to magical forces.

Powerful fey wanders by the window, sees the cute little baby in the crib, and capriciously says "You're a sorcerer now, kiddo", and capriciously wanders off to their next caprice. Because chaos is like that.

Along the same lines a Sorcerer could be a form of Favored Soul - a deity wants to be served, but with arcane magic rather than divine, and so decides to empower a person with arcane powers. Obviously it would take a special deity to do this - Corellon Larethian or Boccob come to mind (yes, Boccob is The Uncaring, but I contend he does care about magic and wants there to be more of it).

Or it's just something in the water. The island of Gont is famous for wizards, but the vale of Deep River is famous for sorcerers.

EDIT:

I like the idea (admission: no explicit RAW comes to mind to support this) that what makes PC special is not their class but the fact that they level with fewer XP. Something like 1/10th the XP is needed to level for a PC.

A PC with 10,000 XP is entering 5th level, a non-PC with 10,000 XP is entering 2nd. This is why the sergeant of the city guard, a 20 year veteran who has taken part in more fights than almost any Fighter in the world, is still only 5th level - yeah, he and his mates have defeated 5,000 foes stopping bar fights and making resisted arrests and so on over the years, but they were nearly all CR 1/4 foes, and his ~100,000 XP gets him to about where 10,000 would get a PC.

[Andezzar]

Or maybe it is a spontaneous mutation, or brougth about by the passing of a comet or whatever.

The XP thing makes no sense at all to me. This would mean that PCs learn ten times as fast as the rest of the populace. That is way to much, especially when you consider rolling the stats for PCs. A PC could have much lower mental stats, which are responsible for learning, than the average commoner.

[Knaight]

Our group is 3.5 not pathfinder for a lot of reasons, but yeah he'll like arcanist.

He doesn't like psionics because of the usually psionics reasons XD.
1. Need to learn a new system
2. It's not magic, it's... sci-fi?
3. He likes the normal wizard magic style

What. I get 1 and 3, but 2 is just bizarre. The inclusion of any psionics system in an ostensibly science fiction work immediately sticks it in the fantasy category as far as I'm concerned, and that only gets exacerbated when the psionics system in question is chock full of elemental blasting, summoning (astral construct), magic crystals, and other such things.


Great to be of use!

Some more notes:

- Generation 30: 8.67 * 10^11th dragonblooded (that's 867 billion potentially unique descendents).
The number of potential descendents has become truly ridiculous here, as we completely eclipse the number of humans on present day Earth in only 750 years of dragonblooded x nondragonblooded-breeding.

The "flaw" lies in the assumption that all dragonblooded will only mate with nondragonblooded. As the math shows, this will quickly become unlikely if not just completely impossible. This means that at some point, those with dragonblood will have to mate with others with dragonblood for the very reason that there's nobody without dragonblood around. Because human population doesn't grow with the same fraction as being dragonblooded (it takes 2 humans to make 2.5 humans under the proposed reproductionrate math, so while "dragonblooded" potentially expands at 2.5x, humanity only expands at 1.25x) dragonblooded will quickly run out of potential non-dragonblooded mates.

That's one of several issues. We can't just use exponential growth for a population. Depopulation events happen, resource capacities inhibit population growths of larger populations, so on and so froth. That 2.5 children per couple replacement rate would, had it applied to real world populations, put us way, way over the current world population - and that's if you look at humans. If you look at something like bacterial culture growth and treat it like exponential growth, it gets even more ridiculous.

This is particularly exacerbated in D&D, where a prey-predator model is likely more useful. Still, keeping things simple, we are currently using a straight growth model, 2*(1.25)^n, where the 1.25 takes into account needing two parents for 2.5 children. At 30 generations that's actually only 1616 people, but it still gets ridiculous quickly. The model before that assumed that one dragonblooded produced 2.5 offspring with the unlimited population model, so it's an improvement, but it still doesn't work.

The simplest model that would be actually useful here would be the logistic population model, which is: dP/dt=rP(1-P/K), or P(t)=KP0/((P0 + (K-P))e^-r(t-t0)). Here K is the carrying capacity, with P0 and t0 being initial values. This at least could be used for an enclave of dragonblooded growing. An actually workable model would involve using this for the total population of humans, dragonblooded and non, and then using another model for the growth of the dragonblooded population relative to the human population as a whole. I can say that asymptotic behavior is exhibited without doing the math, and aren't particularly interested in doing a system of differential equations with a population model to get the details.

[Shining Wrath]

Or maybe it is a spontaneous mutation, or brougth about by the passing of a comet or whatever.

The XP thing makes no sense at all to me. This would mean that PCs learn ten times as fast as the rest of the populace. That is way to much, especially when you consider rolling the stats for PCs. A PC could have much lower mental stats, which are responsible for learning, than the average commoner.

It's not logical, it's magical. A gift, if you will.

[Knaight]

This is why the sergeant of the city guard, a 20 year veteran who has taken part in more fights than almost any Fighter in the world, is still only 5th level - yeah, he and his mates have defeated 5,000 foes stopping bar fights and making resisted arrests and so on over the years, but they were nearly all CR 1/4 foes, and his ~100,000 XP gets him to about where 10,000 would get a PC.

The 5,000 foes works out to more than 1 foe per day. That's implausible to say the least - the sergeant of the city guard is an organizer, an investigator, a watchperson, and a combatant, and the other three parts are pretty relevant to what they are doing with their time. Their presence often prevents issues from cropping up to begin with, reducing the number of fights that they are in, and a barked order to break up fighting hardly qualifies as defeating a foe.

[PaucaTerrorem]

A great comparison would be beauty. Everyone has a little beauty. To use fictional characters: Jabba the Hutt has a beauty of 1. Luke Skywalker or Princess Leia gets the average 5. Black Widow 7. Hermione Granger 10.

Emphasis mine.
Seriously? Hermione is prettier than Black Widow?

[Honest Tiefling]

Clearly someone is into geeky girls. (Personally, I like Scarlet over Emma in terms of just how they look.)

Anyway, I agree with ShiningWrath. I honestly thought that things like that, not just bloodline could produce sorcerers. For the commoner game, mother ate some magical herbs, or herbs a fey used to live near, or were growing from ancient ruins while pregnant, producing a sorcerer. I also thought things like having a spell-casting parent or one inclined to plane-hopping was enough of a reason to suspect that your child has a good chance of Sorcerer-dom. (Let us hope the child can escape the curse of the silly belt-pants.)

Heck, I thought elven blood was enough of a reason considering how much magic they often have kicking around their place and the fact they are supposed to be mildly-fey like. In Forgotten Realms, some can even qualify for the Otherworldly feat, I think? I would say make a half-elf, but half-elves suck. Make a human with a half-elf parent. Make the half-elf do something as mundane as pottery, baking or dung sweeping. There's your bloodline!

[BrokenChord]

The 5,000 foes works out to more than 1 foe per day. That's implausible to say the least - the sergeant of the city guard is an organizer, an investigator, a watchperson, and a combatant, and the other three parts are pretty relevant to what they are doing with their time. Their presence often prevents issues from cropping up to begin with, reducing the number of fights that they are in, and a barked order to break up fighting hardly qualifies as defeating a foe.

Depends on who he's barking the order at, the guards or the fighters. A successful Intimidate check generally qualifies as succeeding at an encounter, though it wouldn't be at the fighters' full CR or anything.

... Actually, they're probably Commoners having a brawl. CR boost for not sundering their souls by yelling too loud.

[Urpriest]

Heck, with the "sorcery=talent with magic" interpretation, you could just have a character who's an autistic savant/child prodigy/other "this person is scarily talented and has no other skills" type.

[Knaight]

Depends on who he's barking the order at, the guards or the fighters. A successful Intimidate check generally qualifies as succeeding at an encounter, though it wouldn't be at the fighters' full CR or anything.

It generally qualifies in the context of dealing with actual enemies, but that's often not what's happening. Full success for intimidating an assassin after you into leaving is one thing, full success for getting two people neutral to you to stop fighting each other is another entirely.

[ShurikVch]

Do sorcerers NEED magical blood?Fluff-wise - probably
RAW-wise - no
Actually, creature without any bloodline (i. e. artificially created) still able to become a sorcerer
Also, we can see it from a different angle: if someone gain level in a Sorcerer, then he/she/it clearly have a magical... lineage (because not every creature have anything resembling blood)


2. It's not magic, it's... sci-fi?

What. I get 1 and 3, but 2 is just bizarre. The inclusion of any psionics system in an ostensibly science fiction work immediately sticks it in the fantasy category as far as I'm concerned, and that only gets exacerbated when the psionics system in question is chock full of elemental blasting, summoning (astral construct), magic crystals, and other such things.
Psionics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psionics#Fiction):
Psionic abilities appear frequently in science fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction) and provide characters with abilities that are normally seen in the fantasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy) genre. As you can see, the very definition of psionics lie inside the science fiction.
Dungeons & Dragons started at what, 1974?
Murray Leinster published "The Psionic Mousetrap" at March of 1955
Also, DC and Marvel comics have psionics way before the 1974, and I wouldn't call them "fantasy"

P.S. Please, may someone point me, where is those crazy "population tables"?

[Coidzor]

Your DM has a strange definition of a Commoner Campaign. (http://zioth.com/roleplay/campaign/joewood/index) :smallconfused:


Also, DC and Marvel comics have psionics way before the 1974, and I wouldn't call them "fantasy"

They're not science fiction either, generally speaking, supers being a thing unto themselves.

[Psyren]

Edit: Also, that would be a large city according to the DMG and should have 1536 first level sorcerers at least... What are you going off?

I combined two sources as follows:

1) DMG pg. 137, "Generating Towns," which defines "large city" as one with population 12,000 - 25,000.

2) DMG web enhancement, (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030719a) "Building a City," which expands on the above and provides more detailed typical demographics by class for each district of a city. Since WotC made this table publicly available I'll post a screenshot of it here:

http://i.imgur.com/t4Thpfy.png

Just by looking at it you can see how rare sorcerers are; the only rarer classes are the isolationist/outdoorsy ones that would avoid a city (Monks, Rangers and Druids), and Paladins, whose rigid path I would expect to turn off many comers. Wizards, Fighters, Clerics and especially Rogues were much more popular.

My numbers came from (for simplicity's sake) adding up every district's population to arrive at a basic city, then adding up all the sorcerers expected to be in each and determining what the incidence of sorcery was on average.

Sorcery is essentially random - it can be passed down from parent to child directly, or lay dormant for generations before springing up again, or even be caused by pure chance and cosmic forces rather than true heritage. In addition, sorcery is not dependent on any particular ethos, environment or mindset, save that you need a minimum amount of charisma to be able to use it, and the more you have the better you'll be with it. Thus I would not expect sorcerers to be any more or less inclined to leave the bounds of a city. (If anything they would be more inclined to stay, since charismatic individuals are at an advantage in civilized society.) Thus the most reasonable conclusion I can draw from the very low population numbers is that sorcery is rare.

[Knaight]

Psionics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psionics#Fiction): As you can see, the very definition of psionics lie inside the science fiction.
Dungeons & Dragons started at what, 1974?
Murray Leinster published "The Psionic Mousetrap" at March of 1955
Also, DC and Marvel comics have psionics way before the 1974, and I wouldn't call them "fantasy"

They lie within what would otherwise be science fiction works maybe. As for DC and Marvel, those are way closer to fantasy than science fiction, though superheroes are a distinct genre to some extent.

[TheCrowing1432]

Magic in DND is as common as dirt (Unless playing a low magic setting)

So having magical blood, is not, indeed "rare". But it is a requirement for being a sorcerer, no matter what your background is.

Dragon/Demon Ancestor, Mother ate some magical herbs while pregnant, Being an Elf.

Somehow, somewhere some magic got into your DNA giving you the power of a sorcerer.

You didnt learn this power in a dusty library or a mage college, because that would make you a wizard.

Your power is an intrinsic part of you, which is the point.

[Jeff the Green]

We get the following number of dragon-blooded:
Generation 0 (Dragon+human): 0 dragonblooded (not counting the Dragon)
Generation 1: 2.5 dragonblooded (yes, awkward but we're talking averages here)
Generation 2: 6.25 dragonblooded
Generation 5: 97.66 dragonblooded
Generation 10: 9536.74... dragonblooded
Generation 20: roughly 91 million dragonblooded.

This is way over-simplified. Any non-modern society is going to have considerable inbreeding and isolation by distance, both of which are going to mean that after a few generations few dragonblooded are actually gong to have children with non-dragonblooded. There's also going to be a lot of stochasticity in the process, particularly early on when the reproductive fate of one dragonblooded can dramatically affect what happens later on. This is particularly true when there's high pre-reproductive mortality as is the case in traditional societies.

There's also the issue that the genome is not endlessly divisible. Assuming the population growth you put forward, by the time a dragon's progeny reach 91 million you'd expect less than 35% of the descendants to have a single gene inherited from the dragon. With inbreeding this count would be smaller, though the descendants would likely have more of the dragon's genome as the dragon essentially counts as multiple great-great-...-grandparents.

[Urpriest]

Magic in DND is as common as dirt (Unless playing a low magic setting)

So having magical blood, is not, indeed "rare". But it is a requirement for being a sorcerer, no matter what your background is.

Dragon/Demon Ancestor, Mother ate some magical herbs while pregnant, Being an Elf.

Somehow, somewhere some magic got into your DNA giving you the power of a sorcerer.

You didnt learn this power in a dusty library or a mage college, because that would make you a wizard.

Your power is an intrinsic part of you, which is the point.

Why ancestry specifically though? After all, the PHB makes ancestry one possible cause out of many. Why do you think ancestry specifically is necessary to be a sorceror, as opposed to all of the other ways for power to be "intrinsically a part of you"?

[TheCrowing1432]

Why ancestry specifically though? After all, the PHB makes ancestry one possible cause out of many. Why do you think ancestry specifically is necessary to be a sorceror, as opposed to all of the other ways for power to be "intrinsically a part of you"?

Well you could make a pact with a demon to be granted power. Or perhaps through Wish.

Though this brings into question how a level 1 adventurer managed to get ahold of these resources. Ancestry is the most common way in order to infuse magic into yourself, but there are other ways.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't think elves have sorcerer blood because they're so wizard intensive. They're favored class is in fact wizard.

Our DM is planning a very low-magic and wealth setting so wizards are going to have to use the spell research stuff to get spells apart from just leveling, so in this sense he could argue that magic blood is rare.

But regardless, it seems unanimous that sorcerers require some sort of magical thing that is completely out of their control in order to become sorcerers.

Apologies for calling psionics sci-fi XD. But if you say "psi" I think Protoss or Zerg, blue lightning and stuff and I think this is where I got the impression :P. Maybe I should man-up and start reading the psionics handbook XD

[unseenmage]

My first thought when I read the thread title was that this was going to be about Sorcerers needing to imbibe *special* blood in order to remain spellcasters.

And the DM is right in their own games but wrong insofar as the book's intent is concerned IMHO.

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't think elves have sorcerer blood because they're so wizard intensive. They're favored class is in fact wizard.

Favored class is the most common class, but not the only one. I believe the one in the Monster Manual has a ranger level. But I still think a magical race of distantly fey-blooded or fey-like people are going to pop out sorcerers occasionally, and is probably magical enough for sorcerers. After all, imagine going two years without casting a single spell. Screw that, the kid can deal with multi-class penalties!

[Jeff the Green]

Favored class is the most common class, but not the only one. I believe the one in the Monster Manual has a ranger level. But I still think a magical race of distantly fey-blooded or fey-like people are going to pop out sorcerers occasionally, and is probably magical enough for sorcerers. After all, imagine going two years without casting a single spell. Screw that, the kid can deal with multi-class penalties!

At least some subraces have Sorcerer as a favored class.

[Coidzor]

At least some subraces have Sorcerer as a favored class.

Like star elves, right? Gnomes and Elves are probably the biggest contenders for being magical without needing adulteration. With Gnomes generally winning because they either have SLAs or they have a Supernatural Ability to talk to woodland critters.

[unseenmage]

I'd be curious how this DM feels about true Dragons who are Sorcerers and/or full Demons who are Sorcerers. Do they not get to be Sorcerers because their blood isn't just touched by their special-ness or would they be super-sorcerers because they get the full dose of that extra special bloody magic?

[Phelix-Mu]

The 5,000 foes works out to more than 1 foe per day. That's implausible to say the least - the sergeant of the city guard is an organizer, an investigator, a watchperson, and a combatant, and the other three parts are pretty relevant to what they are doing with their time. Their presence often prevents issues from cropping up to begin with, reducing the number of fights that they are in, and a barked order to break up fighting hardly qualifies as defeating a foe.

Actually, the rules on just what counts as defeating a challenge aren't terribly specific, so the sergeant in question might earn xp just for bar-brawl mitigation. It's hard to determine this in the abstract because DMs and their rulings are an integral part of how much xp is acquired for encounters.

[Max Caysey]

I have always looked at sorceres as mutant, like in x-men. They are born special... There are quite many, but many of them are unknown (levels 1). Few lean to get their powers right... And some are just born exceedingly powerful. ( Jean Grey = The Simbul). If and when I DM'ing They are rare, and most are low level, but they are there. But to common them would be to diminish them... I feel!

[Psyren]

Magic in DND is as common as dirt (Unless playing a low magic setting)

So having magical blood, is not, indeed "rare".

Having enough of it to be a sorcerer evidently is, however.

Even in Netheril/Halruua, where the washerwomen and scullions could use cantrips, true sorcery is still pretty rare.

[ShurikVch]

Even in Netheril/Halruua, where the washerwomen and scullions could use cantrips, true sorcery is still pretty rare. To be precise, sorcery there is as rare as in any other place. Wizardy is a local thing - 1/3 of population have an aptitude, and 1/3 of those are real wizards.
They consider sorcery a "wrong magic", so local sorcerers pretend to be wizards, hide their gift, or emigrating

[thethird]

One could always cast Sherem transformation to ensure (female) sorcerers are born.

[Psyren]

To be precise, sorcery there is as rare as in any other place. Wizardy is a local thing - 1/3 of population have an aptitude, and 1/3 of those are real wizards.
They consider sorcery a "wrong magic", so local sorcerers pretend to be wizards, hide their gift, or emigrating

Right, that's what I meant. So even in lands where magic is proliferate we see sorcery being just as rare as everywhere else.

[atemu1234]

One could always cast Sherem transformation to ensure (female) sorcerers are born.

Where's this from?

[Urpriest]

Well you could make a pact with a demon to be granted power. Or perhaps through Wish.

Though this brings into question how a level 1 adventurer managed to get ahold of these resources. Ancestry is the most common way in order to infuse magic into yourself, but there are other ways.

They could also just be born with a talent for magic, like in essentially every fantasy novel ever. Harry Potter's muggle-born are the most famous example, but most novels with magic have characters manifest magic at puberty, before they receive any formal training, and most such characters don't have any special bloodline as an excuse. Why assume that D&D doesn't work that way?

[Jeff the Green]

Where's this from?

Ghostwalk. It's pretty tightly tied to the fluff of the place too, unlike, for example, Dreadful Wrath, so while it can be refluffed and ported fewer DMs are likely to allow it.

[Honest Tiefling]

I dunno. I guess I am amused at the idea of a fey-blooded race that can cast spells intrinsically somehow still not magical enough to make sorcerers unless they banged something else.

So...For the OP, if that plan is a no go, how does your buddy feel about beguilers?

[RoboEmperor]

Beguilers don't have the spells he likes to have :P. He loves meteor swarm.

Wouldn't making pacts with demons/devils turn you into a warlock instead of a sorcerer? Because he'll buy that fluff in a jiffy for sorcerers because any common human can make a deal with glabrezus, or some devil.

[Milo v3]

Wouldn't making pacts with demons/devils turn you into a warlock instead of a sorcerer? Because he'll buy that fluff in a jiffy for sorcerers because any common human can make a deal with glabrezus, or some devil.

It's definitely in the power of a glabrezus to let you take sorcerer levels, since they can grant wishes. "Let me take a level in this class literally anything sentient can take without restriction" definitely wouldn't count as too powerful for wish IMO.

[deuxhero]

I'm fairly sure there's similar stuff in 3.5, but in PF many of the bloodlines say you can be a sorcerer because you were "touched" by magic at some point in your life, most likely early, rather than being descended from it.

Elemental says that, instead of being descended from an elemental, your powers might be because "you or your relatives were exposed to a powerful elemental force", Fey just says "magic" could cause your powers, Pestilence ONLY comes from such.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, after a lot of thought, i wanna try playing a pathfinder sorcerer. I think I'm in love with the elemental bloodline.

What is a "powerful elemental force" my level 0 human could search for and be intentionally exposed to?

[Psyren]

Alright, after a lot of thought, i wanna try playing a pathfinder sorcerer. I think I'm in love with the elemental bloodline.

What is a "powerful elemental force" my level 0 human could search for and be intentionally exposed to?

- A storm
- An earthquake
- Growing up near a volcano
- A forest fire

[Milo v3]

What is a "powerful elemental force" my level 0 human could search for and be intentionally exposed to?

Sun, just stand out in the sun. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Aye, Suns are big ol' wossnames to the Elemental Plane of Fire. Not sure if they changed that in PF, though.

[Milo v3]

Aye, Suns are big ol' wossnames to the Elemental Plane of Fire. Not sure if they changed that in PF, though.

Yeah, sun's power still comes from it's giant elemental fire plane portal.

.... Though it does now have fire dolphins....

[RoboEmperor]

Alright... I can think of 2 stories

1. Kid loves fire, accidentally starts a fire in his house. Burns the house down but narrowly survives it by hiding in something and rescue team finds him buried under rubble.

or...

2. Travels through the desert, experiencing the SUN and the HEAT for weeks or something.

[Necroticplague]

Yeah, sun's power still comes from it's giant elemental fire plane portal.

.... Though it does now have fire dolphins....

It does? Huh. I always thought it was a portal to the plane of Radiance (where Fire and Positive meet), not Fire. After all, the Radiance's main trait is being A:bright and B:hot.

[Milo v3]

It does? Huh. I always thought it was a portal to the plane of Radiance (where Fire and Positive meet), not Fire. After all, the Radiance's main trait is being A:bright and B:hot.

Do quasi-elemental planes even exist in PF?