creating a contingency plan (pathfinder)

[hoborobot]

my group just loves to go out of their way to make it hard for me to gm by the book. current situation is (Theives Guild) they poisoned the mayor and most of his guests during the cournacopia, locked them in their rooms and used the mayor's signet ring which contains a runecurse that only a mayor about to send a bunch of forged letters and then used disguse self to disguise as the mayor. i was thinking one way to go about would be to send in a level 20 cleric of asmodeus (fire domain) flanked by 2 psion-killers. i never played a cleric so im not sure how to stat him up or his spells but would spells Zone of Truth and Dispel magic be useful? zone says the person cant lie but knows when they are in the zone and can give evasive answers.

also assume that you can spend as much money as you want on the cleric and his items, i dont intend him to be a bbeg.

[Killer Angel]

Leaving aside that we don't know the level of the rroup...


. i was thinking one way to go about would be to send in a level 20 cleric of asmodeus (fire domain) flanked by 2 psion-killers.

Why should a level 20 cleric of asmodeus, be interested in this affair?

We (or I, at least :smallwink:) need more infos...

[Garktz]

Thieve.s guild mayor got taken by poison?
That.s weird...
I would go as "Mayor was faking getting down with the poison and the mayor npcs in the guild, ring is some kind of "bonded to the current Mayor" and sets up a trap as soon as they try to use it"
And all this poisoning gets turned around being a trap set to catch them off guard

or something along those lines

[skypse]

my group just loves to go out of their way to make it hard for me to gm by the book. current situation is (Theives Guild) they poisoned the mayor and most of his guests during the cournacopia, locked them in their rooms and used the mayor's signet ring which contains a runecurse that only a mayor about to send a bunch of forged letters and then used disguse self to disguise as the mayor. i was thinking one way to go about would be to send in a level 20 cleric of asmodeus (fire domain) flanked by 2 psion-killers. i never played a cleric so im not sure how to stat him up or his spells but would spells Zone of Truth and Dispel magic be useful? zone says the person cant lie but knows when they are in the zone and can give evasive answers.

also assume that you can spend as much money as you want on the cleric and his items, i dont intend him to be a bbeg.

So you want to call in a (practically) demon follower of an Evil God so you can keep your PCs at bay. Even though from what it seems you are running an evil campaign setting, this doesn't seem very "fair" for your players.

[hoborobot]

first the group level is 5, second the alchemist in the group decided to poison everyone by poisoning their food. the entire toen follows aesmodeous.

[hoborobot]

So you want to call in a (practically) demon follower of an Evil God so you can keep your PCs at bay. Even though from what it seems you are running an evil campaign setting, this doesn't seem very "fair" for your players.

this is basicly supposed to scare them into actually following the book. the cleric is not supposed to fight them, just look scary, and say what happened with the mayor we have been getting reports of discord among the city watch and different orders (hellknights)

[skypse]

this is basicly supposed to scare them into actually following the book. the cleric is not supposed to fight them, just look scary, and say what happened with the mayor we have been getting reports of discord among the city watch and different orders (hellknights)

Ok I get it but I don't think this particular strategy is well-thought. You may make things worse, you may make some of them want to follow the path of Asmodeus or even believe that you presented the cleric in front of them in order to appeal them doing it.

I would propose to talk about it OOC with your party. Explain to them why what they did fcked things up, and ask them if they want to play the specific campaign you are playing now, or maybe start over something new. Perhaps an evil campaign considering the fact that they are actually having fun with all the poison act and everything. Speak with them, listen to what they have to say, and try and make the game enjoyable for everyone. Trying to force them follow the book's story when they don't want to, can really ruin your gaming experience as a whole.

However, if you insist on bullying them, instead of bringing forth a Cleric, bring forth an Archdemon to tell them that what they have been doing is messing up the "balance" of the system and if they don't stop this and start following the rules, they will have severe reprocusions. After that "roll back" the campaign to the point that all of those things haven't yet occured, and if they try to pull something like that again, well, kill them with your DM lightning.


first the group level is 5, second the alchemist in the group decided to poison everyone by poisoning their food. the entire toen follows aesmodeous.

So you ARE playing an Evil campaign or do you simply let them worship evil gods?

[hoborobot]

Thieve.s guild mayor got taken by poison?
That.s weird...
I would go as "Mayor was faking getting down with the poison and the mayor npcs in the guild, ring is some kind of "bonded to the current Mayor" and sets up a trap as soon as they try to use it"
And all this poisoning gets turned around being a trap set to catch them off guard

or something along those lines

the alchemist disguised himself, found the kitchen rolled a natural 20 while sprinkling his mutagen. its kind of hard or aristocrats to roll 17 or higher. and now when i want to say that the letters dont make it to their destination to cause discord, destruction and blame placed all over the place that there was an assassination attempt on the mayor.

if i just say the letters were never written the group gets mad at me because i cant give a good enough reason. first time dm, and my improv is not good at all.

[hoborobot]

bah i hate typing when its this early, always make mistakes. it was supposed to mean the whole place worships AESMODEUS

[hoborobot]

what does OOC mean?

[skypse]

what does OOC mean?

Out of content. It means out of game basically. You gather around, you explain the situation to them, you explain that what they did fcked you up and you ask them if it is possible that all this thing never happened because as a new DM you cannot handle it properly.

[hoborobot]

Out of content. It means out of game basically. You gather around, you explain the situation to them, you explain that what they did fcked you up and you ask them if it is possible that all this thing never happened because as a new DM you cannot handle it properly.

the problem with that is i am very bad at explaining things and two of the players are either are rule laywer and the second one is english major that will always try to get his way, and last section when i told them what they are doing is wrong and im disallowing it, the english major says "why are you always red-conning our pr ideas, we are doing them in character".i honestly have no idea what to say to that other than RULE 0 but that pisses everyone off.

[skypse]

the problem with that is i am very bad at explaining things and two of the players are either are rule laywer and the second one is english major that will always try to get his way, and last section when i told them what they are doing is wrong and im disallowing it, the english major says "why are you always red-conning our pr ideas, we are doing them in character".i honestly have no idea what to say to that other than RULE 0 but that pisses everyone off.

RULE 0 is always the worst idea and even after you apply it you most probably will lose the group.
Try to explain to them not that you disallow what they are doing, but that YOU as a DM don't have the ability to play it. D&D is a reactive game not a one side story. Talk with them and tell them that you either need to follow the book in order to go with the story, or find a new story to play with them.

[Alex12]

One of those players here, with a little context. Or maybe a lot of context.
We're running a published Adventure Path, Council of Thieves.
Current party makeup is a highly-optimized Blue cryptic (party tank, damage-dealer, encyclopedia, and skillmonkey), an elf or half-elf alchemist we haven't seen much of, and myself, a dimensionally-displaced pegasus pony sorcerer (arcane backup and party face. Also technically not a pegasus anymore because I got a horn from my bloodline when I hit level 3). None of us are evil or Asmodeus-worshippers, but we're in Cheliax, which is full of both.
The first part of the AP had a different GM, the guy currently playing the alchemist, and hoborobot was playing a human inquisitor of Iomedae. That's why we haven't seen much of the alchemist, btw.
Now, given that I'm the only one in the group with a positive Cha modifier and none of us have Perform(act) we decided that doing the play, especially a play that kills people, is not the best idea ever. Since I have both wings and horn, making me an alicorn, I am technically royalty within my homeland of Equestria, even though I don't currently have access to said homeland. I use my royalty, as well as the fact that I have Diplomacy as a class skill at max ranks, to wrangle an invitation for myself and the other two to the party, which was the ultimate goal of the play.
At the party, the alchemist left to go to the toilet, which took him by the kitchens, and he put one of his things (I think a mutagen) into the food, which makes anyone who isn't him who drinks it make a fort save or be nauseated for an hour. Bam, most of the guests have food poisoning, party ruined, guests start leaving. I (who has apparently been nothing but helpful and friendly to everyone up to this point in the campaign, and just had a nice discussion with the mayor about possible trade benefits between Equestria and Golarion when and if I get a magic portal working) and the rest of the party help the mayor to his room to recover...at which point we incapacitate him.
Then we find his official seal and his records and papers and forms and things (since it had previously been established that the mayor uses his mansion as his workplace) and forge up some messages with the mayor's seal to the City Watch and the Order of the Scourge accusing the mayor's majordomo of being behind the food-poisoning as an assassination attempt, working with the Order of the Rack and one of the noble houses, and order the City Watch to eliminate the majordomo and attack the Order of the Rack and one of the noble houses (I forget which one) for treason, and request the Order of the Scourge's assistance. We send a message to the Order of the Rack saying something to the effect of there being a plot against the mayor and that the Order of the Scourge is behind it. We're also sending out messages to other kingdoms and major religions and such basically saying "hey, come invade Cheliax, I've seen the error of my ways and am on your side guys! Signed: Mayor of Westcrown" (note: I am paraphrasing)
The cryptic found the portal to the asmodean knot, so we tied up the mayor and dumped him in there. Now we're impersonating him recovering from the assassination attempt- both the alchemist and I have access to shapechanging magic (Disguise Self and Disguise Other, respectively) and I'm a pretty good Bluffer. We sent out the letters to the groups in the city, and we're going to send the other letters out via smugglers. Our short-term plan is to throw the city into chaos and disarray, get the bad guys fighting each other, sneak off and pretend we had nothing to do with it, and go investigate the Pathfinder guildhall after the city watch is called away from their patrols on our forged orders as "nonessential posts" and then get caught up restoring order.
TL:DR we're not necessarily expecting all our messages to get out, or to be believed, but we're throwing enough stuff out there that something should get out.

Part of the issue is that hoborobot has issues with providing information, and with actually following the book. For example, during the strategy session to work out how we were going to get into the mayor's mansion, we were asking the NPC questions about defenses and such, envisioning a possible breaking-and-entering. Hoborobot, through the lips of the NPC who should have had at least a basic idea about the defenses, said there'd probably be about 15-20 Hellknights each from about 5 different orders, and also the manor was protected by a dome of force with a 100-foot radius (keep in mind, again, that we are level 5. A level 5 character against defenses against that level of spellwork is a conflict with only one outcome). Phrases like "Is that really what it says in the book?" and "If I look in the book, is that what I'm going to see?" are fairly common, and it's turned out on multiple occasions that no, the book actually says something completely different. And the differences are rarely what I'd call reasonable differences, they're always pretty egregious and often violations of common sense (Stratospheric Diplomacy check to gather info about who is going to be at the huge party the mayor is throwing: "just the actors from the play" "If I look in the book, is that what it's going to say? Because that seems tiny" "Yes" *book is checked, number of partygoers is substantially higher*)
He also seems to have some strange allergy to reading things like room descriptions aloud so the players know what the room actually looks like.

[Garktz]

[...]Phrases like "Is that really what it says in the book?" and "If I look in the book, is that what I'm going to see?" are fairly common, and it's turned out on multiple occasions that no,[...] "If I look in the book, is that what it's going to say? Because that seems tiny" "Yes" *book is checked, number of partygoers is substantially higher[...]


Why do you think the dm has to follow the book down to the letter? He.s the DM, he can have asmodeus assisting said party if he feels like it...
If he.s using an AP as a guideline because he wants to, where.s the problem? If you guys want to play by the book, get a DM that goes straight down the book

But, in my opinion, if i were to dm an AP and one of my players said something like that, i probably would auto kick him out of the game because i feel like thats going to far AGAINST the dm


Im sorry, but your post made me angry, like a lot, i feel that as major disrespect

[Alex12]

Why do you think the dm has to follow the book down to the letter? He.s the DM, he can have asmodeus assisting said party if he feels like it...
If he.s using an AP as a guideline because he wants to, where.s the problem? If you guys want to play by the book, get a DM that goes straight down the book
It's not "down to the letter" that I care about. It's the big stuff, the stuff that'll come into play later, especially the stuff that's an active violation of common sense that I object to.
If the AP says there's 5 goblins somewhere that we have to fight, and the GM changes it to 3 hobgoblins or something, I've got no problem with that. If the AP says NPC X is a fighter, and the GM decides to change him to a barbarian, I have no issue with that either. Swap out some enemy's feats? Fine, makes sense! I'm sure there have been things that hoborobot changed that none of us even noticed because the change wasn't to something that didn't make sense. But the sorts of changes that are happening are things that break immersion, or that are retconned by continuing to follow the AP.

For example, during that strategic session with the NPC (who was herself a member of the PFS), we were told by her that the local Pathfinder guildhall had burned down. Fine! Reasonable! Okay! Buildings burning down is a thing that can happen, and she's in a position to know these things! But then we asked her what our ultimate goal was (which itself turned into almost a game of 20 questions), it turned out that in fact it had been sealed and guarded by the government, and the ultimate goal was to gain access to the sealed and guarded building to look for some magical doodad or something. Except we had previously been told, and been working under the assumption, that it had burned down.

[skypse]

OK now the problem seems a little bit different than before. It's not that you guys (the PCs) are trying to play your own game and have fun but you ultimatelly ruin the DM's/book's story. It's that your DM doesn't want to follow the story but doesn't bother to create something of his own since he admits he is not good at improvisation. However if the things that you ask for are already INSIDE the book, why would he need improv in the first place? I'm confused :D

As far as the "If I look in the book" thing, I completely disagree with you guys. Even if you get to prove yourselves right, it really shows disrespect towards your DM and that's just bad.

[P.F.]

In my gaming group we have learnt that it's no good looking up the stats on something; monsters will have unlisted abilities, extra hit dice, alignment not-as-advertised, and different equipment. So when a player asks, "Is that what it says in the book?" my answer would be "No. I 'optimized' it."

As far as poisoning the entire aristocracy, kidnapping the mayor, and forging a bunch of letters to implicate another NPC, I'm not sure I see what the problem is. Certainly, whatever problem this creates would be better handled by the characters learning that their poor choices have alienated NPC's whose help they need, or that they have accidentally killed the only person who knew the secret location of the magical key or whatever. God-moding the PC's with a lvl 20 whatever isn't going to fix the problem, and will just make them more obstreperous.

The old DMG had a pretty good section discussing what it is that players get out of the game. For some, it's the puzzles, or social role-playing, or riddles. For others, it's seeing really high numbers on the character sheet. For a few, it's intra-party conflict; more often, it's being better at combat than the other PC's. Balancing the desires of the individual players against the rules of the game and the fun of the group is a delicate art and one which takes practice, patience, and honest self-assessment of what I could have done better.

The DM here seems to have a social problem, not a game-mechanic one. When I let my players browbeat me and argue against my rulings, I am teaching them that it's okay to dispute my arbitration. Now usually my problem is that the party gets out of control in other ways. For example, when I have a really successful session, my players will tell their friends and may invite them to join. I, being a people-pleaser, don't want to turn anyone away, but two weeks later I'm trying to manage a party of ten in an adventure intended for four, five, six at most. There was one session where I literally got about an hour in, and had to say, "Guys, I'm really not feeling this. I can't keep DMing this."

It took a lot of courage to say that, and I was afraid I would let everyone down. But, in fact, someone else took over, I got to play a PC, we ran a different adventure and everyone had a great time.

There is a subtle but important distinction here: is the problem that the DM can't keep the group, or that the group can't keep a DM? Based on that wall-o-text posted by one of the players, it may be the latter.

[hoborobot]

In my gaming group we have learnt that it's no good looking up the stats on something; monsters will have unlisted abilities, extra hit dice, alignment not-as-advertised, and different equipment. So when a player asks, "Is that what it says in the book?" my answer would be "No. I 'optimized' it."

As far as poisoning the entire aristocracy, kidnapping the mayor, and forging a bunch of letters to implicate another NPC, I'm not sure I see what the problem is. Certainly, whatever problem this creates would be better handled by the characters learning that their poor choices have alienated NPC's whose help they need, or that they have accidentally killed the only person who knew the secret location of the magical key or whatever. God-moding the PC's with a lvl 20 whatever isn't going to fix the problem, and will just make them more obstreperous.

The old DMG had a pretty good section discussing what it is that players get out of the game. For some, it's the puzzles, or social role-playing, or riddles. For others, it's seeing really high numbers on the character sheet. For a few, it's intra-party conflict; more often, it's being better at combat than the other PC's. Balancing the desires of the individual players against the rules of the game and the fun of the group is a delicate art and one which takes practice, patience, and honest self-assessment of what I could have done better.

The DM here seems to have a social problem, not a game-mechanic one. When I let my players browbeat me and argue against my rulings, I am teaching them that it's okay to dispute my arbitration. Now usually my problem is that the party gets out of control in other ways. For example, when I have a really successful session, my players will tell their friends and may invite them to join. I, being a people-pleaser, don't want to turn anyone away, but two weeks later I'm trying to manage a party of ten in an adventure intended for four, five, six at most. There was one session where I literally got about an hour in, and had to say, "Guys, I'm really not feeling this. I can't keep DMing this."

It took a lot of courage to say that, and I was afraid I would let everyone down. But, in fact, someone else took over, I got to play a PC, we ran a different adventure and everyone had a great time.

There is a subtle but important distinction here: is the problem that the DM can't keep the group, or that the group can't keep a DM? Based on that wall-o-text posted by one of the players, it may be the latter.

what i accually meant, not adding the cliric to the party, but him coming upon learning of the assassination attempt, plus he is the one that gives the mayor his elixer to negate the runecurecurse for day. once the cleric sees that the elicer seems to be not working, suspitions arise as to where the real mayot is who are these fakes followed by a dispel magic on them. the cleric is not supposed to fight, just look intimidating enough that the party will sort of follow the book while he goes to help the mayor and sort things out. the psion kuller is there because of annoying cryptic in the party that deals ridilous ammounts of damage and shrinks himself so he cant be touched and finally can increase his hp by 20 each time i believe.

accually there is only one person, lets call him X, that loves browbeating the DM's of the campaigns he is in. not the first time, and i am very bad at arguing and prefer to please people instead.

[EisenKreutzer]

Im sorry, but your post made me angry, like a lot, i feel that as major disrespect



As far as the "If I look in the book" thing, I completely disagree with you guys. Even if you get to prove yourselves right, it really shows disrespect towards your DM and that's just bad.

I, on the other hand, feel it's highly disrespectful of the GM to artificially inflate difficulties of simple skill checks, place insurmountable obstacles in front of the players and heavyhandedly and clumsily attempt to railroad the adventure down one specific path while making all other options obsolete.

Guys, the GM is not some sacred godlike entity at the end of the table dispensing truth and justice. The GM is just another player at the table, and everyone at the table is responsible for everyone elses fun.

[Killer Angel]

As far as the "If I look in the book" thing, I completely disagree with you guys. Even if you get to prove yourselves right, it really shows disrespect towards your DM and that's just bad.

Judging from what wrote Alex12, it seems that this mistrust, comes from contradictory changes made by the DM

[lord_khaine]

I, on the other hand, feel it's highly disrespectful of the GM to artificially inflate difficulties of simple skill checks, place insurmountable obstacles in front of the players and heavyhandedly and clumsily attempt to railroad the adventure down one specific path while making all other options obsolete.

Guys, the GM is not some sacred godlike entity at the end of the table dispensing truth and justice. The GM is just another player at the table, and everyone at the table is responsible for everyone elses fun.

And i agree 100 % on this, modifying standard monsters before they are placed is a good thing to do, changing the rules of the game between sessions very much not so.

[hoborobot]

And i agree 100 % on this, modifying standard monsters before they are placed is a good thing to do, changing the rules of the game between sessions very much not so.

i agree that i do not read completely in advance or if i find hard to pronounce i dont read at all and make it up as i go along. unfortunately that was one extremly important hook point i messed up. burned instead of just locked up with mystical energy that only one type key can unlock.

[skypse]

I, on the other hand, feel it's highly disrespectful of the GM to artificially inflate difficulties of simple skill checks, place insurmountable obstacles in front of the players and heavyhandedly and clumsily attempt to railroad the adventure down one specific path while making all other options obsolete.

Guys, the GM is not some sacred godlike entity at the end of the table dispensing truth and justice. The GM is just another player at the table, and everyone at the table is responsible for everyone elses fun.

It's not disrespectful however it IS plain bad. He shouldn't do that and as I saw from the later posts he explained himself.
I never said that DMs are some kind of Godlike entity that others have to worship it, I do believe however that having as a standard that your DM is a good one, you disrespect him by not trusting that he is telling you the truth about something. I say that as a general principle and not as a judgement in the specific situation.


Judging from what wrote Alex12, it seems that this mistrust, comes from contradictory changes made by the DM

True.


And i agree 100 % on this, modifying standard monsters before they are placed is a good thing to do, changing the rules of the game between sessions very much not so.

Not a good thing, but if done properly noone will notice and sometimes it is a forced method. The reactive nature of D&D itself provokes for stuff like that because you cannot always anticipate what your PCs will do next. This leads to making on-the-spot changes/modifications that should help the overall gameplay.


i agree that i do not read completely in advance or if i find hard to pronounce i dont read at all and make it up as i go along. unfortunately that was one extremly important hook point i messed up. burned instead of just locked up with mystical energy that only one type key can unlock.

That's a common mistake. You don't read the book beforehand or you don't read at least 2 chapters ahead of the point you are in the campaign, leads to such mistakes. However it is not up to the PCs to pay the price of your mistakes/unnatendance/ignorance/boredom. Take a session off, read the book, figure out an alternative for the key, and resume. If you cannot do that, then either let someone else to DM or ask your PCs to replay the whole thing as if it never happened and promice you will be MUCH MORE careful from now on.

Additionally, from what I understand I get that you are in the begining of the adventure so you can alternatively start over a new book for a fresh start. HOWEVER, you still need to read ahead and be prepared for the key points in your plot.

[hoborobot]

the thing is, everyone now knows the mistake, and what i said has been rectified, hoewever the pc's still went on with their plan of poison, impostoring and forging letters. they seem to think it will help open the place they need to go to without any confrontation, while there is no need for any of that exept toactually have talked to the npcs they poisoned to get some rumors about where to go from there. if there is a mistake on my part, please tell me what i should do.

[skypse]

the thing is, everyone now knows the mistake, and what i said has been rectified, hoewever the pc's still went on with their plan of poison, impostoring and forging letters. they seem to think it will help open the place they need to go to without any confrontation, while there is no need for any of that exept toactually have talked to the npcs they poisoned to get some rumors about where to go from there. if there is a mistake on my part, please tell me what i should do.

Ok so let me understand something here please. Are you saying that your PCs did something that YOU didn't expect, but other than poisoning (without lethal consequences) some potential informers it doesn't affect the whole plot at all?? If their plan does not affect the story in any major ways, what is the problem? Just let them do it and you should get ready for the next sessions.

[hoborobot]

Ok so let me understand something here please. Are you saying that your PCs did something that YOU didn't expect, but other than poisoning (without lethal consequences) some potential informers it doesn't affect the whole plot at all?? If their plan does not affect the story in any major ways, what is the problem? Just let them do it and you should get ready for the next sessions.

no accually this is their resoing. 1 get guards away from objective with fake letters. 2 go to objective unhindered even though they dont know where exactly where it is. 3 waltz in in, mission accomplished. the problem is the objective is not being guarded by guards but by ancient magic that only a certain key can unlock and the npc that would aim them in the correct direction are poisoned right now. by the time the party comes back, the Cournacopia is over, and the hell knights probably wont let armed people in since someone attempted murder on the mayors life.

[skypse]

no accually this is their resoing. 1 get guards away from objective with fake letters. 2 go to objective unhindered even though they dont know where exactly where it is. 3 waltz in in, mission accomplished. the problem is the objective is not being guarded by guards but by ancient magic that only a certain key can unlock and the npc that would aim them in the correct direction are poisoned right now. by the time the party comes back, the Cournacopia is over, and the hell knights probably wont let armed people in since someone attempted murder on the mayors life.

Ok I get it now. At last some logic!! :D
I do see your point now but you must understand that while what they did, made things worse it did not make them impossible. They still can get in there but now they have to find a different way to approach the correct NPC and to get the directions from him for the key. It is their actions that made the whole thing difficult and complicated. They chose it that way, let it be that way. The NPC is still alive since the poison is the alchemist's mutagen, noone knows that they are the ones who did it and the party is over. So now your PCs run against the clock to try and find a way in there before the hell knights return. They don't find it in time? Too bad for them. They will have to try and do it unnarmed or with consealed weapons or whatever.

My point is that since the PCs did something that affects the story, they should deal with the reprocussions of their actions. It's not your job to try and save their asses just because you know the rest of the story. Let them try and figure it out. It's part of their RP and they should play it. If the can't handle it, they will be put in jail and die. End of story, see you guys next week with another campaign to play. Have fun, let's go for beer :D

[hoborobot]

yeah well technically i will be a pc in a week i different campaign (we rotate dming each week) thanks for your replys.

[skypse]

yeah well technically i will be a pc in a week i different campaign (we rotate dming each week) thanks for your replys.

A small part of me just died, another wants to kill you, and the rest of me doesn't know if it should salute you for your trolling or just not reply at all...

[hoborobot]

A small part of me just died, another wants to kill you, and the rest of me doesn't know if it should salute you for your trolling or just not reply at all...

what i meant by that is 4 people play and during each weekend of the month one of us dms another module. simple, yes? so technicly we all participate in 4 modules, this one, skull and shackles, reign of winter, and we will starting some asian themed one because it turns out the previous one was designed for 3.5

[skypse]

what i meant by that is 4 people play and during each weekend of the month one of us dms another module. simple, yes? so technicly we all participate in 4 modules, this one, skull and shackles, reign of winter, and we will starting some asian themed one because it turns out the previous one was designed for 3.5

Cool then. You have 3 weeks ahead of you to read the adventure you DM on, and think what else you can do with the whole situation. Plan some stuff ahead of time so you won't have problems improvising.

[Alex12]

no accually this is their resoing. 1 get guards away from objective with fake letters. 2 go to objective unhindered even though they dont know where exactly where it is. 3 waltz in in, mission accomplished. the problem is the objective is not being guarded by guards but by ancient magic that only a certain key can unlock and the npc that would aim them in the correct direction are poisoned right now. by the time the party comes back, the Cournacopia is over, and the hell knights probably wont let armed people in since someone attempted murder on the mayors life.

That...wasn't exactly the goal. I mean, yeah, it kinda was, or at least a desired side-goal, but our main goal was more focused on generalities. Under ideal circumstances, if our plan worked perfectly, we'd trigger a civil war in the city, followed shortly by (or possibly occur at the same time as) invasions from countries who aren't comfortable being neighbors with a bunch of Asmodeus-worshippers. The invasions were kind of a long shot, but given that Asmodeus is basically the god of backstabbing, I wouldn't expect it to take much to cause some pretty significant issues in terms of political stability.

As for not knowing exactly where the place is...it's a building. It doesn't move. It's been locked down and under guard for the past, what, 30 years? There's probably been hundreds, if not thousands of people guarding the place at different times. Not to mention there's that NPC who is a member of the Pathfinders. I wouldn't expect it to be all that difficult to find. Also, one of the actual campaign traits available in the Player's Guide specifically mentions the place, in ways that strongly imply it's not hidden.

Westcrown’s dilapidated Pathfinder lodge of Delvehaven has long excited your imagination. Forcibly closed by the order of the city’s diabolical rulers, the Pathfinders of Westcrown were exiled, forcing them to leave behind untold knowledge and the treasures of countless expeditions.Today, Delvehaven lies under the pale of fearful rumors and dark magic, and bureaucratic red tape has prevented trespass on the lodge’s well-protected grounds.
Nothing about it being difficult to find. Difficult to access, yeah, but that's a completely different thing.

[skypse]

That...wasn't exactly the goal. I mean, yeah, it kinda was, or at least a desired side-goal, but our main goal was more focused on generalities. Under ideal circumstances, if our plan worked perfectly, we'd trigger a civil war in the city, followed shortly by (or possibly occur at the same time as) invasions from countries who aren't comfortable being neighbors with a bunch of Asmodeus-worshippers. The invasions were kind of a long shot, but given that Asmodeus is basically the god of backstabbing, I wouldn't expect it to take much to cause some pretty significant issues in terms of political stability.

As for not knowing exactly where the place is...it's a building. It doesn't move. It's been locked down and under guard for the past, what, 30 years? There's probably been hundreds, if not thousands of people guarding the place at different times. Not to mention there's that NPC who is a member of the Pathfinders. I wouldn't expect it to be all that difficult to find. Also, one of the actual campaign traits available in the Player's Guide specifically mentions the place, in ways that strongly imply it's not hidden.

Nothing about it being difficult to find. Difficult to access, yeah, but that's a completely different thing.

Regardless of what it is "supposed" to be, you first need to understand that causing a whole city fall into chaos cannot happen over 1 day even if Asmodeus himself would attend it. If anything, what you did just raised caution and made the City Guard much more suspicious and careful. Double shifts, interrogations, even calling in an Asmodean Cleric for permanent Anti-Magic Field or for Divination purposes trying to find out who did all this sh1t and why.

Your actions took something that was already difficult and brought it up to a whole new level, potentially even lethal for you guys. You wanted to sh1t around in public thinking you would go unnoticed, and you just fired fcking apocalypse on your asses. GL with that.

[Killer Angel]

Regardless of what it is "supposed" to be, you first need to understand that causing a whole city fall into chaos cannot happen over 1 party

To be fair, they aren't the first, and won't be the last ones, that try to spread wanton chaos just because it's fun. It's encoded in adventurers' DNA. :smallwink:

[hoborobot]

Regardless of what it is "supposed" to be, you first need to understand that causing a whole city fall into chaos cannot happen over 1 party even if Asmodeus himself would attend it. If anything, what you did just raised caution and made the City Guard much more suspicious and careful. Double shifts, interrogations, even calling in an Asmodean Cleric for permanent Anti-Magic Field or for Divination purposes trying to find out who did all this sh1t and why.

Your actions took something that was already difficult and brought it up to a whole new level, potentially even lethal for you guys. You wanted to sh1t around in public thinking you would go unnoticed, and you just fired fcking apocalypse on your asses. GL with that.

now you are starting to see where i got the idea of a cleric for the beging of this thread.

[skypse]

To be fair, they aren't the first, and won't be the last ones, that try to spread wanton chaos just because it's fun. It's encoded in adventurers' DNA. :smallwink:

Meant to write "over 1 day" thanks for noticing :D

[Alex12]

Regardless of what it is "supposed" to be, you first need to understand that causing a whole city fall into chaos cannot happen over 1 party even if Asmodeus himself would attend it.
This is empirically untrue. The real-world example that first springs to mind is World War I, which was triggered by a successful assassination carried out by a single guy. That one caused significantly larger-scale chaos, and happened over a single guy who didn't have magic powers. Why wouldn't a larger number of people who do have magic powers be unable to cause a lesser level of chaos?
For that matter, individuals or small parties of people causing large-scale political upheaval is a staple of the game, and is far from unprecedented in the lore. Look at Irrisen, just as an example. A single person (who is admittedly an extremely powerful witch) was able to take it over. Just causing things to devolve into chaos in a single city should be a comparative cakewalk.

Meant to write "over 1 day" thanks for noticing :D
We don't, strictly speaking, need to do it over just one day. Besides, you think we can't set stuff in motion in a single day that won't snowball? You think the city guard mobilizing and assaulting a defined target can't happen in a single day?


If anything, what you did just raised caution and made the City Guard much more suspicious and careful. Double shifts, interrogations, even calling in an Asmodean Cleric for permanent Anti-Magic Field or for Divination purposes trying to find out who did all this sh1t and why.
Right, yes. And we're trying to take advantage of that fact. The party was at the mayor's mansion, the rest of the guests left after eating the contaminated food and getting nauseated.
We're still at the mayor's mansion, we've got the two shapeshift-capable party members making it seem like the mayor survived the poisoning, and we're trying to aim that paranoia. As far as the city guard and the Hellknights and such know, it's not "some unknown person assassinated the mayor, and we need to find out who." It's "The mayor survived an assassination attempt, he knows who did it, and he's now calling for the guilty parties to be arrested and/or killed."

[hoborobot]

a lesson on history. WWI was not caused by a single assinition. there were many factors that led up to it. its like saying Hitler coming into power caused WWII

[EisenKreutzer]

a lesson on history. WWI was not caused by a single assinition. there were many factors that led up to it. its like saying Hitler coming into power caused WWII

The murder of Franz Ferdinand was not the cause, but it was the Menthos in the bottle of Diet Coke that was the military and cultural pressure of the age.

[Alex12]

a lesson on history. WWI was not caused by a single assinition. there were many factors that led up to it. its like saying Hitler coming into power caused WWII

Historically speaking, that's actually true of just about everything. I can't think of a single large-scale historical event that didn't have many factors leading up to it. And the same is true here.
Discontent with the Chelish rule is becoming obvious. There's shadowbeasts roaming the streets every night, there's an actively-recruiting resistance (they recruited us, after all), and there are external pressures like the Pathfinders. Furthermore, there are the obvious tensions between the different Hellknight orders, there's the fact that at least two different gangs of thieves and murderers were able to set up shop in the city and the "brutally efficient" Hellknights and Dottari were unable or unwilling to deal with them, and there's the fact that Asmodeus actively encourages ambition and rule through power and is effectively the god of backstabbing.
If we had just up and left, gotten on a boat or something (or in my case, just flown off) and gone to, I dunno, Varisa or something, I don't think the city would have lasted another 20 years. We're just accelerating that implosion.

[Oneris]

Historically speaking, that's actually true of just about everything. I can't think of a single large-scale historical event that didn't have many factors leading up to it. And the same is true here.
Discontent with the Chelish rule is becoming obvious. There's shadowbeasts roaming the streets every night, there's an actively-recruiting resistance (they recruited us, after all), and there are external pressures like the Pathfinders. Furthermore, there are the obvious tensions between the different Hellknight orders, there's the fact that at least two different gangs of thieves and murderers were able to set up shop in the city and the "brutally efficient" Hellknights and Dottari were unable or unwilling to deal with them, and there's the fact that Asmodeus actively encourages ambition and rule through power and is effectively the god of backstabbing.
If we had just up and left, gotten on a boat or something (or in my case, just flown off) and gone to, I dunno, Varisa or something, I don't think the city would have lasted another 20 years. We're just accelerating that implosion.

The problem is that what you are attempting requires considerable GM improvisation and/or preparation outside of what is given in the AP material. The GM you currently have can't even seem to read the next chapter of a pre-existing adventure well enough to run it properly. What makes you think he can prepare an off-the-rails political intrigue game?

[Alex12]

The problem is that what you are attempting requires considerable GM improvisation and/or preparation outside of what is given in the AP material. The GM you currently have can't even seem to read the next chapter of a pre-existing adventure well enough to run it properly. What makes you think he can prepare an off-the-rails political intrigue game?

This is an entirely valid argument (of the four people we've got, there's only one I'd trust to make such a campaign and make it good, and it's not me.)

I'll admit, I'm not the mastermind of the whole situation (the alchemist pretty much went and did the poisoning thing on his own without consulting the rest of the group) and we're scrambling a bit to play catch-up. We actually have scrapped a couple of ideas for similar reasons (most notably, the idea of going totally off the rails by totally ignoring the actual AP and instead trying to found a new goblin homeland based on equality and freedom for all).

Hm. I'll cogitate on this.

[skypse]

This is empirically untrue. The real-world example that first springs to mind is World War I, which was triggered by a successful assassination carried out by a single guy. That one caused significantly larger-scale chaos, and happened over a single guy who didn't have magic powers. Why wouldn't a larger number of people who do have magic powers be unable to cause a lesser level of chaos?
For that matter, individuals or small parties of people causing large-scale political upheaval is a staple of the game, and is far from unprecedented in the lore. Look at Irrisen, just as an example. A single person (who is admittedly an extremely powerful witch) was able to take it over. Just causing things to devolve into chaos in a single city should be a comparative cakewalk.
Well, no and I think the rest of the guys explained why.



We don't, strictly speaking, need to do it over just one day. Besides, you think we can't set stuff in motion in a single day that won't snowball? You think the city guard mobilizing and assaulting a defined target can't happen in a single day?

Never said it won't fall into chaos. I said it won't happen over 1 day.



Right, yes. And we're trying to take advantage of that fact. The party was at the mayor's mansion, the rest of the guests left after eating the contaminated food and getting nauseated.
We're still at the mayor's mansion, we've got the two shapeshift-capable party members making it seem like the mayor survived the poisoning, and we're trying to aim that paranoia. As far as the city guard and the Hellknights and such know, it's not "some unknown person assassinated the mayor, and we need to find out who." It's "The mayor survived an assassination attempt, he knows who did it, and he's now calling for the guilty parties to be arrested and/or killed."

Well I don't really want/need to help you on figuring this out beforehand since you do seem like experienced players AND because I wanna see how you will deal with the whole situation, but I believe that you DO know that 1-2 well phrased commune spells will kick your asses so hard that you never knew what hit you right?
Also, (correct me if I am wrong but I think it works) true seeing can see through disguise spells and anti-magic field can just throw you to your original forms in no time. Plus I am not really sure how you plan on explaining the fact that ONLY your party's members were unnafected by the alchemists poison when EVERYONE else got sick. That seems a little suspicious and even if the mayor doesn't want to conduct a direct investigation on you guys, he SHOULD have some consultants that also got sick and DO possess some power over guards or at least SHOULD consult the "mayor" to invastigate you. After the mayor declines (good luck with your diplomacy/bluff checks) they might be a little suspicious over the "mayor's" decision and since Asmodeus is the god of backstabing as you really like to mention, I see no reason whatsoever not to go behind the mayor's back to find out who poisoned them.

So yes the city would fall into chaos either way, you just made that faster and you potentially endager yourselves while you could have done this whole sh1t quietly and easier on yourselves.

[P.F.]

annoying cryptic in the party that deals ridilous ammounts of damage and shrinks himself so he cant be touched and finally can increase his hp by 20 each time i believe.

I would be tempted to put a lvl 20 outsider with two psion-killer attendants on this one myself.


accually there is only one person, lets call him X, that loves browbeating the DM's of the campaigns he is in. not the first time, and i am very bad at arguing and prefer to please people instead.

I know there's no easy way to deal with this. Sometimes I use the passive defense, but even a moderately stubborn player can go on arguing with a brick wall for a good half-hour and use more than half of the session throwing temper tantrums.

When player X is "having fun" in the game, what is he doing? How can you create more opportunities for that to happen? If you can give a player some leeway on certain things that are important to them, they might be less inclined to fight tooth and nail over every little thing.

As for getting the adventure back on track, it sounds like they are going to have to work with the Mayor and/or his guests to find the next quest location . . . I'm guessing there's no entry on the diplomacy skill chart for "Reveal secret to person who poisoned you" but I bet the penalty is substantial. Of course, it's always possible that no one will find out that it was the PC's, or will not find out until later, in which case, perhaps the quest can go on without crushing that cryptic dust mote between two crystal golems.

[lycantrope]

Hi, alchemist here, to provide DM with constructive feedback in writing for next week.

1. The purpose of the unwieldiness of our plan was to make sure ~something~ happened. The plan was made with "worst-case scenario" in mind, wherein only a little bit of violence breaks out among the factions, but this causes an air of suspicion and non-cooperation to appear between them, allowing us rebels to work future plots and efforts with less resistance.
2. The plan currently stands on the edge of a knife. Even a safe outcome for the party demands flawless execution, a risk we agreed was worth it if it could give the rebellion a chance.
3. You need to read and be familiar with the material. You don't have to memorize it -- I don't think any of us do, as it's pointless because of how frequently we all go off the rails. Just know key players, key locations, and how the two string together in the long narrative. You also know how the three of us tend to play: sorcerer prefers non-violent action, and myself and the psion prefer sneaky-beaky maneuvering. Note: tonight's reign of winter session, where we skipped every encounter and I got beaten up while playing bardbarian.
4. It's okay to say no to player machinations, as long as there's a good reason. Note: skulls and shackles, where our...warder?...attempted to diplomance a key antagonist before I was ready for significant change in pacing. He rolled high, and I said "no" because he was both already inclined in attitude against him personally and actively commanding him from a position of power.
5. I really can't tell who you're accusing of browbeating DMs, as I think we're all guilty of doing it all the time in different capacities. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as the best sessions (in my opinion) are the ones where rules have to be determined/created on the fly because of player spontaneity in response to DM scripting. For example, how tonight your fire spell missed the guy grappling me and started a fire, which broke up the fight.

[skypse]

Hi, alchemist here, to provide DM with constructive feedback in writing for next week.

1. The purpose of the unwieldiness of our plan was to make sure ~something~ happened. The plan was made with "worst-case scenario" in mind, wherein only a little bit of violence breaks out among the factions, but this causes an air of suspicion and non-cooperation to appear between them, allowing us rebels to work future plots and efforts with less resistance.
You poisoned EVERYONE but your party in a huge fest, you kidnapped/killed the mayor with (from my point of view) no sufficient information on how to impersonate him and you thought that the WORST-CASE scenario would've been "a little bit of violence" between the factions so that YOU (which means the mayor himself who must take actions for this whole thing) could pass unnoticed and investigate without any leads how to get the key you need in order to bypass the magic. Yeah. I can't see any problems there. Good job everyone! Good thinking!



2. The plan currently stands on the edge of a knife. Even a safe outcome for the party demands flawless execution, a risk we agreed was worth it if it could give the rebellion a chance.
Still you believe that the worst case scenario is just a little dispute, name-calling and maybe some scratches here and there from the bitchslaps. DUDE YOU STARTED A FREAKING COUP. YOU DON'T STAR IN "THE KARDASHIANS"




4. It's okay to say no to player machinations, as long as there's a good reason. Note: skulls and shackles, where our...warder?...attempted to diplomance a key antagonist before I was ready for significant change in pacing. He rolled high, and I said "no" because he was both already inclined in attitude against him personally and actively commanding him from a position of power.
It's ok to let the PCs do whatever they hell they want to do. You just move on with the story. If their actions kill them, not DM's fault. If their actions make them rich and famous, not DM's praise. Don't go back and start whining like 5-year-olds when you realize that your DM said nothing to you when you tried to poison/kill the "questgiver" NPC. For all you know, what you started might even endager the leader of the faction who gave you the order in the first place.



5. I really can't tell who you're accusing of browbeating DMs, as I think we're all guilty of doing it all the time in different capacities. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as the best sessions (in my opinion) are the ones where rules have to be determined/created on the fly because of player spontaneity in response to DM scripting. For example, how tonight your fire spell missed the guy grappling me and started a fire, which broke up the fight.

We don't accuse. We say it's harsh sometimes due to the unpredictability factor. Again, do what you want to do but if it doesn't work out the way you thought it would, don't come back bitching about it.

[hoborobot]

accually, me and the pony player sort of found a way to get back on the rails. it involves a lot of political intrigue thats all i can say.

[lycantrope]

You poisoned EVERYONE but your party in a huge fest, you kidnapped/killed the mayor with (from my point of view) no sufficient information on how to impersonate him and you thought that the WORST-CASE scenario would've been "a little bit of violence" between the factions so that YOU (which means the mayor himself who must take actions for this whole thing) could pass unnoticed and investigate without any leads how to get the key you need in order to bypass the magic. Yeah. I can't see any problems there. Good job everyone! Good thinking!


Still you believe that the worst case scenario is just a little dispute, name-calling and maybe some scratches here and there from the bitchslaps. DUDE YOU STARTED A FREAKING COUP. YOU DON'T STAR IN "THE KARDASHIANS"



It's ok to let the PCs do whatever they hell they want to do. You just move on with the story. If their actions kill them, not DM's fault. If their actions make them rich and famous, not DM's praise. Don't go back and start whining like 5-year-olds when you realize that your DM said nothing to you when you tried to poison/kill the "questgiver" NPC. For all you know, what you started might even endager the leader of the faction who gave you the order in the first place.



We don't accuse. We say it's harsh sometimes due to the unpredictability factor. Again, do what you want to do but if it doesn't work out the way you thought it would, don't come back bitching about it.

I think there's a misunderstanding here -- we have no problem with accepting the consequences of our actions. For example, our attempts to gather intel on the party guests resulting in high rolls yielding the info that only other actors will be attending, so we plan our party mingling around that fact. Would I have taken the opportunity to "poison" everyone with a well laid sickening if we had known that most of the high command would be in attendance? Maybe, maybe not. I honestly chalk most of this up to poor preparation due to inexperience, and am fairly confident that things will go more smoothly this week.

[hoborobot]

I think there's a misunderstanding here -- we have no problem with accepting the consequences of our actions. For example, our attempts to gather intel on the party guests resulting in high rolls yielding the info that only other actors will be attending, so we plan our party mingling around that fact. Would I have taken the opportunity to "poison" everyone with a well laid sickening if we had known that most of the high command would be in attendance? Maybe, maybe not. I honestly chalk most of this up to poor preparation due to inexperience, and am fairly confident that things will go more smoothly this week.

i specificly said who is going to be at the party, twice, when you decided for some reason gather info and i didnt bother rolling assumming you would be happy with that info. then again when you showed up i once again announced everyone, exept their stats of course.