Need Dwarf with a big axe Build

[Sneaky Hue]

Hello.
I'm rusty and never played 3.5 too much, my table comrades don't have the time through. So i need you guy's help.

Here is the simple concept.

Race: Dwarf

Starting Level:4

Desired progression: 1 to 20

Function: Tanky Damage dealer. Any classes will do really, i just want a badass Dwarf who destroy things with his two handed axe. Classic.

Ability Points: Rolled stats, 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 10

Party Composition: Monk, Rogue, Wizard, Barbarian and maybe a Paladin. Yes, i know, we are missing a Cleric. I was going to be the Cleric but, they limited Casters acess to books a LOT ( like, core only ) and still
considered my character OP and asked me to change. So i dropped the class.

Allowed books: Core, up to 5 ''Complete series'', Players guide to faerun and up to TWO more books.

Big no-no's: No templates, no Psionics ( i did not ask them but, i know nothing about Psionics and they would probably consider OP) no Flaws.

Misc info: Any Dwarf subrace is fine. Tips about equipment and magical equipment would be awesome. Also, should i be going Full Plate even if one of my classes is Barbarian?


That is all.
I've been a lurker here for a while now and love some of the builds you guys come up with. Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:

[Red Fel]

When you say "tanky," do you mean "can take lots of hits," or "can prevent enemies from hitting allies?" Because the former requires very little (AC, DR, HP and saves) and the latter requires more feat- and class-based specialization. More than that, the latter requires specialization that may hurt your overall damage output. So you kind of have to prioritize.

That said, when somebody mentions a Dwarf, my first instinct is to point them to the handbook in my sig. Ironsoul Forgemaster from Magic of Incarnum. Assuming your party gets the downtime to craft, you will be able to make awesome weapons and armor for the party, including for yourself. You gain added benefits from the gear you craft (the Armor Bond, Shield Bond, and Weapon Bond class features), and can progress your soulmeld shaping, giving you more versatility than the average beatstick. Best of all, Dwarf Clerics will love you. No party Cleric? No problem! Clerics of Moradin adore Ironsoul Forgemasters. You'll have all the Clerics you need back home.

Note that the guide in my sig also has a fairly comprehensive list of Dwarf subraces, if you want to look into them.

[Sneaky Hue]

When you say "tanky," do you mean "can take lots of hits," or "can prevent enemies from hitting allies?" Because the former requires very little (AC, DR, HP and saves) and the latter requires more feat- and class-based specialization. More than that, the latter requires specialization that may hurt your overall damage output. So you kind of have to prioritize.

That said, when somebody mentions a Dwarf, my first instinct is to point them to the handbook in my sig. Ironsoul Forgemaster from Magic of Incarnum. Assuming your party gets the downtime to craft, you will be able to make awesome weapons and armor for the party, including for yourself. You gain added benefits from the gear you craft (the Armor Bond, Shield Bond, and Weapon Bond class features), and can progress your soulmeld shaping, giving you more versatility than the average beatstick. Best of all, Dwarf Clerics will love you. No party Cleric? No problem! Clerics of Moradin adore Ironsoul Forgemasters. You'll have all the Clerics you need back home.

Note that the guide in my sig also has a fairly comprehensive list of Dwarf subraces, if you want to look into them.

I meant tanky as in can take some hits.

EDIT: Sorry man, your guide is AWESOME and i wish i could use it but, but it has Caster levels, so i could not use that book. ( House rule, caster have very limited book acess )

[AvatarVecna]

Do you know if you'll be able to control what items you have as the game goes on, or will you be stuck with whatever your DM hands out? Also, if you can choose what items you have, how does your DM feel about custom magic items, assuming you don't go crazy?

[Sneaky Hue]

Do you know if you'll be able to control what items you have as the game goes on, or will you be stuck with whatever your DM hands out? Also, if you can choose what items you have, how does your DM feel about custom magic items, assuming you don't go crazy?

We can choose our Magic items. But probably just from the core books, no magic item compendium.
Creating items yeah, maybe. But nothing crazy.

[ShurikVch]

Start with 2 levels of Crusader, then go Stoneblessed (Goliath), at 6th level go Barbarian - it's allow you to get a Mountain Rage, which make you Large while raging. Take feat Mad Foam Rager.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, Barbarian and the various PrCs that are built for it (Frenzied Berserker, Bear Warrior, etc.) are quite tanky, while still enhancing your offence as well. Seeing as you've got one wizard in a party full of melee people, look through some wizard handbooks for good group buff spells; "Mass Bull's Strength", "Mass Bear's Endurance", and "Mass Enlarge Person" wouldn't be bad to start out with, and I'm sure you could work from there. Fighter levels are also good, mostly for the feats.

Beyond that, while I'm not sure what all will be good for tanking, your desire for a dwarf reminded me of the Iron Chef Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342807-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVI) for building competent Dwarven Defenders. While I can't in good faith recommend you take that class for a number of reasons, each more valid than the last, I can say that the builds present in that competition were designed to be masters of tanking; check out the builds and their explanations, it might be worthwhile.

As for good custom items...

Firstly, do not get any item giving an enhancement to Strength. Instead, wear a custom item that grants a Continuous "Fist of Stone" effect; it's a 1st lvl spell that grants +6 enhancement to Strength, and is much cheaper than the gauntlets and belts: 8000 gp.

Secondly, find a way to get cheap concealment. A Continuous "Blur" effect is 24,000 gp, and I'm sure there's a cheaper way.

Thirdly, AC is easy to optimize through cash and buffs, especially in the higher levels. Do so.

[Sneaky Hue]

Alright, Barbarian and the various PrCs that are built for it (Frenzied Berserker, Bear Warrior, etc.) are quite tanky, while still enhancing your offence as well. Seeing as you've got one wizard in a party full of melee people, look through some wizard handbooks for good group buff spells; "Mass Bull's Strength", "Mass Bear's Endurance", and "Mass Enlarge Person" wouldn't be bad to start out with, and I'm sure you could work from there. Fighter levels are also good, mostly for the feats.

Beyond that, while I'm not sure what all will be good for tanking, your desire for a dwarf reminded me of the Iron Chef Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342807-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-LVI) for building competent Dwarven Defenders. While I can't in good faith recommend you take that class for a number of reasons, each more valid than the last, I can say that the builds present in that competition were designed to be masters of tanking; check out the builds and their explanations, it might be worthwhile.

As for good custom items...

Firstly, do not get any item giving an enhancement to Strength. Instead, wear a custom item that grants a Continuous "Fist of Stone" effect; it's a 1st lvl spell that grants +6 enhancement to Strength, and is much cheaper than the gauntlets and belts: 8000 gp.

Secondly, find a way to get cheap concealment. A Continuous "Blur" effect is 24,000 gp, and I'm sure there's a cheaper way.

Thirdly, AC is easy to optimize through cash and buffs, especially in the higher levels. Do so.



I don't want to be a tank, exactly. Damage is my primary focus, i just don't want to be squishy.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright, my first suggestion is to build an Ubercharger; just google that, and you'll find all the builds focused on Power Attack+Leap Attack+Shock Trooper+Knockback+Dungeoncrasher Fighter+Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian. That being said, you have a whole bunch of melee-ers in this party, so weapon damage isn't gonna be an issue.

Thus, my second suggestion is to consult the Tome of Battle and make thorough use of it. Seeing as you lack a dedicated healer, a Crusader (or a Master of Nine who is primarily a Crusader) could work well. Of particular interest to you will be the Devoted Spirit maneuvers and the White Raven maneuvers: between healing, BFC, and tactical maneuvering, this is one melee combatant who brings more to the party than just another axe to swing. Seriously, making ToB one of your other allowed books would be a fantastic way to build an interesting melee combatant.

[Red Fel]

I meant tanky as in can take some hits.

EDIT: Sorry man, your guide is AWESOME and i wish i could use it but, but it has Caster levels, so i could not use that book. ( House rule, caster have very limited book acess )

Read the class again. The IF doesn't have caster levels. It treats levels in IF as if they were caster levels for the purpose of item crafting. In fact, you can play a pure non-caster IF and be awesome at it.

A particular favorite of mine involves mixing the IF with ToB classes, like AvVec suggests. Crusader is awesome, capable of dealing damage while taking hits and spot-healing - precisely what you're asking for. Or take a Fireblood Dwarf (for Dragonblood subtype), dip Totemist, then go Warblade for Stormguard Warrior and plenty of natural weapon attacks.

[Sneaky Hue]

Read the class again. The IF doesn't have caster levels. It treats levels in IF as if they were caster levels for the purpose of item crafting. In fact, you can play a pure non-caster IF and be awesome at it.

A particular favorite of mine involves mixing the IF with ToB classes, like AvVec suggests. Crusader is awesome, capable of dealing damage while taking hits and spot-healing - precisely what you're asking for. Or take a Fireblood Dwarf (for Dragonblood subtype), dip Totemist, then go Warblade for Stormguard Warrior and plenty of natural weapon attacks.

Could you build me/link me to a level progression? I like the concept of your first exemple, but without hand holding guidance i will mess it up.

[Red Fel]

Could you build me/link me to a level progression? I like the concept of your first exemple, but without hand holding guidance i will mess it up.

No problem. In this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17377971&postcount=5), there are several build stubs. An extremely straightforward one (relatively speaking) is the one I call the Ironsoul Lockdownmaster, the first one in spoilers. It consists of: Levels: 1: Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem variant from Complete Champion, replaces Fast Movement with Pounce) 2-3: Fighter (for bonus feats) 4-5: Incarnate (to fill your meldshaping requirement) After that, go straight into Ironsoul Forgemaster. Sometime after 8th level, grab two levels of Crusader as well Feats: Combat Reflexes: Grants you additional attacks of opportunity Combat Expertise: Qualifies you for Improved Trip Improved Trip: Qualifies you for Knockdown Knock-down: When you deal 10+ damage, make a trip attempt Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain): Optional, but a great all-purpose weapon (particularly for tripping) Stances: Iron Guard's Glare: This is your "no, I'm your target" stance; enemies have to attack you or suffer a penalty. Thicket of Blades: This is your "nobody move" stance; enemies who move take an AoO. Maneuvers: You don't get too many, but one you want is called Defensive Rebuke. When you hit someone with it, if he attacks anybody that round other than you, you get an AoO.

So here's the explanation. First, you take Barbarian for Pounce, letting you make a full attack on a charge. Next, Fighter for bonus feats. Incarnate for meldshaping. More or less as I say in the build above.

Why wait until after 8th level to take Crusader? Well, for two levels of Crusader, you get two stances. The first should obviously be Iron Guard's Glare. But the second, Thicket of Blades, is a third-level maneuver; that requires an IL of 6+. Two of your IL will come from your two levels of Crusader, but the remaining four must come from non-initiator levels. Since your IL for non-initiator classes is halved, you need 8 non-initiator levels, plus two levels of Crusader, to get IL 6. Hence why you don't want to take Crusader until you have 8 levels under your belt.

Now, here's how it plays. Pounce launches you directly into combat, surround yourself with enemies and activate Thicket of Blades. If they move away from you, they provoke an AoO. Every time you attack an enemy, you have a chance to trip them (thanks to Knock-down) and a chance to stun them (thanks to Weapon Bond). The goal of the build, very simply, is to provoke as many AoOs as possible, in order to lock down as many opponents as possible.

The build stub suggests finding a source of Enlarge Person. Doing so would increase your threat range to 15 feet, which means more AoOs and more lockdown.

Another option, if you can spare the feats, is to work towards Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike; these allow you to take AoOs when somebody attacks you.

Does that make sense? Is it what you were looking for, or did you want something less lockdown-y and more face-melt-y?

[Ferronach]

I know that War Hulk requires you to be large but you may want to look into some way of getting there. The large while raging may work if your DM lets you use warhulk class features while raging :)

[AvatarVecna]

War Hulk loses BAB in exchange for Str. And before you say "You don't lose attack bonus, and you get a damage bonus", I'll counter with "what you lose is extra attacks from having a high BAB". On most builds, especially uberchargers, I'd prefer lots of attacks.

War Hulk, in my opinion, is pretty mediocre outside of three cases: firstly, Hulking Hurler cheese (since such a build will have many other sources of Str enhancing their attacks, lots of attacks isn't the point of the build); secondly, gestalt/tristalt/whatever-stalt, where you can combine it with a full BAB class, getting full BAB and the Str increase; thirdly, epic play, where BAB advances by the chart in the DMG instead of as the class/PrC directs it.

[Ferronach]

War Hulk loses BAB in exchange for Str. And before you say "You don't lose attack bonus, and you get a damage bonus", I'll counter with "what you lose is extra attacks from having a high BAB". On most builds, especially uberchargers, I'd prefer lots of attacks.

War Hulk, in my opinion, is pretty mediocre outside of three cases: firstly, Hulking Hurler cheese (since such a build will have many other sources of Str enhancing their attacks, lots of attacks isn't the point of the build); secondly, gestalt/tristalt/whatever-stalt, where you can combine it with a full BAB class, getting full BAB and the Str increase; thirdly, epic play, where BAB advances by the chart in the DMG instead of as the class/PrC directs it.

I didn't mean to go pure warhulk but a splash of it for the ability to hit a number of targets at once seems to fit with th OP's I want to smash stuff and smash it hard with my big shiny axe (a very enjoyable type of character)

[Sneaky Hue]

No problem. In this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17377971&postcount=5), there are several build stubs. An extremely straightforward one (relatively speaking) is the one I call the Ironsoul Lockdownmaster, the first one in spoilers. It consists of: Levels: 1: Barbarian (Spirit Lion Totem variant from Complete Champion, replaces Fast Movement with Pounce) 2-3: Fighter (for bonus feats) 4-5: Incarnate (to fill your meldshaping requirement) After that, go straight into Ironsoul Forgemaster. Sometime after 8th level, grab two levels of Crusader as well Feats: Combat Reflexes: Grants you additional attacks of opportunity Combat Expertise: Qualifies you for Improved Trip Improved Trip: Qualifies you for Knockdown Knock-down: When you deal 10+ damage, make a trip attempt Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain): Optional, but a great all-purpose weapon (particularly for tripping) Stances: Iron Guard's Glare: This is your "no, I'm your target" stance; enemies have to attack you or suffer a penalty. Thicket of Blades: This is your "nobody move" stance; enemies who move take an AoO. Maneuvers: You don't get too many, but one you want is called Defensive Rebuke. When you hit someone with it, if he attacks anybody that round other than you, you get an AoO.

So here's the explanation. First, you take Barbarian for Pounce, letting you make a full attack on a charge. Next, Fighter for bonus feats. Incarnate for meldshaping. More or less as I say in the build above.

Why wait until after 8th level to take Crusader? Well, for two levels of Crusader, you get two stances. The first should obviously be Iron Guard's Glare. But the second, Thicket of Blades, is a third-level maneuver; that requires an IL of 6+. Two of your IL will come from your two levels of Crusader, but the remaining four must come from non-initiator levels. Since your IL for non-initiator classes is halved, you need 8 non-initiator levels, plus two levels of Crusader, to get IL 6. Hence why you don't want to take Crusader until you have 8 levels under your belt.

Now, here's how it plays. Pounce launches you directly into combat, surround yourself with enemies and activate Thicket of Blades. If they move away from you, they provoke an AoO. Every time you attack an enemy, you have a chance to trip them (thanks to Knock-down) and a chance to stun them (thanks to Weapon Bond). The goal of the build, very simply, is to provoke as many AoOs as possible, in order to lock down as many opponents as possible.

The build stub suggests finding a source of Enlarge Person. Doing so would increase your threat range to 15 feet, which means more AoOs and more lockdown.

Another option, if you can spare the feats, is to work towards Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike; these allow you to take AoOs when somebody attacks you.

Does that make sense? Is it what you were looking for, or did you want something less lockdown-y and more face-melt-y?

Firstly, thank you for helping so much.
I really like the concept and, having read you guide more fully now, i will for sure store it for a future table.

The problem is...I think i should avoid using Tome of Battle. Now that i think about it, the DM will most likely bitch about it.

So i decide to indeed go for a more face-melt-y, to avoid drama.
The Ubercharger everyone keeps talking about should do the trick. But i know i will, probably, have to change to Half Orc due to my rolled stats. No problem with that.

I still need the hand holding through, if you could do the same you just did for a Half-Orc ubercharge, within my book limit, you would be my hero.

[AvatarVecna]

I didn't mean to go pure warhulk but a splash of it for the ability to hit a number of targets at once seems to fit with the OP's I want to smash stuff and smash it hard with my big shiny axe (a very enjoyable type of character)

The other problem with War Hulk (any number of levels) is No Time to Think: most optimizers get around this going into the PrC while under the effects of Enlarge Person or similar, and only gaining the benefits...and the drawbacks...when enlarged. While an interesting tactic, the RAW that makes this work is rather obtuse and obscure. And then you get to the real issue: it's RAW, but not RAI, and with the OP's DM having already slapped down an optimizing cleric, I doubt they'll let that particular trick slide.

That said, the flavor of the class is really nice for this kind of thing, but ultimately, in real games, the kind of optimization that would make it viable is heavily frowned upon; it's only place (outside of the corner cases I mentioned) is in TO.

That said, for the right build, it can be very fitting, thematically; I just don't think it'll ever be optimal, especially when mundane combat has enough problems keeping up with magic already.

[Ferronach]

The other problem with War Hulk (any number of levels) is No Time to Think: most optimizers get around this going into the PrC while under the effects of Enlarge Person or similar, and only gaining the benefits...and the drawbacks...when enlarged. While an interesting tactic, the RAW that makes this work is rather obtuse and obscure. And then you get to the real issue: it's RAW, but not RAI, and with the OP's DM having already slapped down an optimizing cleric, I doubt they'll let that particular trick slide.

That said, the flavor of the class is really nice for this kind of thing, but ultimately, in real games, the kind of optimization that would make it viable is heavily frowned upon; it's only place (outside of the corner cases I mentioned) is in TO.

That said, for the right build, it can be very fitting, thematically; I just don't think it'll ever be optimal, especially when mundane combat has enough problems keeping up with magic already.

Fair enough, I have never played one personally but like the general vibe of it. Especially if it only applies while raging.

[ComaVision]

@ Red Fel

Firstly, I really like your guide. It was a good read.

You said in this thread that you need an IL of 6+ for third level maneuvers/stances. It's 5+.

[Red Fel]

@ Red Fel

Firstly, I really like your guide. It was a good read.

You said in this thread that you need an IL of 6+ for third level maneuvers/stances. It's 5+.

Thanks! And you're right, 5+, my bad.

And that means you could take Crusader after 6th level, instead of after 8th. But since ToB's off the table, that's kind of a moot point.

[Sneaky Hue]

Thanks! And you're right, 5+, my bad.

And that means you could take Crusader after 6th level, instead of after 8th. But since ToB's off the table, that's kind of a moot point.

Hey Red, i created another thread to better represent the change in direction i choose to take. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381709-Need-Ubercharger-build&p=18358299#post18358299

Would love to have your imput. :smallsmile:

[Seerow]

So I got most of the way into a long post extolling the virtues of psionic deurgar before double checking the OP and seeing psionics are banned.

welp.

[Sneaky Hue]

So I got most of the way into a long post extolling the virtues of psionic deurgar before double checking the OP and seeing psionics are banned.

welp.

Thanks anyway.
I have wished to learn and play psionics for a while now but, in the past Psionic players created a bad impression at this group, so i'm told.

[Fouredged Sword]

The only issue I have with the above IsFm build is a lack of shield. I really like a shield on my forgemaster, and you can dig up Improved Buckler Defense so you can wield a buckler and a spiked chain. You keep that really nice pile of energy resistances without problem.

[Red Fel]

The only issue I have with the above IsFm build is a lack of shield. I really like a shield on my forgemaster, and you can dig up Improved Buckler Defense so you can wield a buckler and a spiked chain. You keep that really nice pile of energy resistances without problem.

Buckler? Bah! You're a Dwarf! Use a buckler that will make your ancestors proud! The Dwarven Buckler Axe from Complete Warrior is a buckler with axe blades! You can use it as a shield or as an off-hand weapon, or both! You can enhance either aspect of it, or both! Best of all, you don't need EWP to use it - Complete Warrior contains rules allowing you to swap out proficiency with one of the typical Dwarven weapons (urgrosh and waraxe) for any other Dwarven weapon, such as the Buckler Axe!

Buckler like a Dwarf!TM

[Fouredged Sword]

You want to wield a reach weapon with both hands. A spiked chain and a buckler are viable with Improved Buckler Defense.

[Seerow]

Buckler? Bah! You're a Dwarf! Use a buckler that will make your ancestors proud! The Dwarven Buckler Axe from Complete Warrior is a buckler with axe blades! You can use it as a shield or as an off-hand weapon, or both! You can enhance either aspect of it, or both! Best of all, you don't need EWP to use it - Complete Warrior contains rules allowing you to swap out proficiency with one of the typical Dwarven weapons (urgrosh and waraxe) for any other Dwarven weapon, such as the Buckler Axe!

Buckler like a Dwarf!TM

Oooh.

Does that dwarven proficiency swapping extend to being able to pick up proficiencies with that extra-heavy armor from races of stone?

[Fouredged Sword]

I vaguely recall a ACF that trades towershield prof for an exotic armor prof. Can't remember for sure....

[Darrin]

Another perk to the Dwarven Buckler-Axe: no -1 attack penalty for using an arm with an attached buckler.



Does that dwarven proficiency swapping extend to being able to pick up proficiencies with that extra-heavy armor from races of stone?

Sadly, no. There's an optional rule to swap tower shield proficiency for an exotic shield proficiency, but unfortunately there's no equivalent swap for exotic armor proficiency.

[Theomniadept]

Never really looked at what it does in-depth but you could always trade your crappy urgrosh proficiency for the Dwarven Warpike, take 6 levels of Dungeoncrasher fighter with Improved Trip and Knockdown, then go into Crusader for 4 levels and then into Deepstone Sentinel. Damage, defense, dwarf, and dcrowd dcontrol.

[Gwendol]

No ToB according to the OP.