The Biurge - Body Horror! Biomancy! Mutant Minions! Food!

[Ethereal Gears]

Greetings!
So I've created a class called the Biurge that is basically a sort of spell-less minion-mancer/healer based around the theme of magical genetic engineering, visceral life magic, mutants and so on. Inspired by Giger and Cronenberg and the Simic Combine from Magic: the Gathering, et cetera. Presented here for your reading pleasure if this sounds like the sort of thing that might tickle your fancy. I was unable to figure out how to convert some of my tables and things properly to forum post form, sadly, so I'm merely uploading my original PDFs. Hopefully people will still find this workable.

The Biurge (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8e09cD4OAF3UW40a2FqX3hjWnc/view?usp=sharing) - This is the class itself.

Biurge Adaptations (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8e09cD4OAF3OU1qRjZ4WW1lQ1k/view?usp=sharing)- These are the biurge's selectable abilities, similar to an alchemist's discoveries, etc..

Biurge Mutants and Mutations (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8e09cD4OAF3S1VTYVItUjNadE0/view?usp=sharing) - Mutants are short-lived aberrations that biurges create and use in combat.

Any and all comments are welcome, though more specifically constructive criticism regarding balance would be appreciated. This class aims to fall slightly below the power level of its spiritual cousin the Summoner, so corrections geared towards that goal would be especially helpful. I posted this on the Paizo boards as well, since it always seems that one gets very different and useful perspectives from these two fora.

CHANGELOG:

2014-11-04:

* The hale mutation was changed to read: "The mutant changes its Constitution score to progress as per the slower of the two 'Str or Dex' progressions on Table: Mutant. The biurge must be at least 9th level before selecting this mutation."

2014-11-05:

* Changed the name of the kind of nuclei one can create by gaining the abiogenesis adaptation to "abiogenic nuclei". "Necrobiotic nuclei" was a holdover from an earlier version of the ability.

* Changed the fine fettle mutation from a 1-point to a 2-point mutation.

* Changed the nucleus section of the main biurge document to clarify that dead mutants cannot be resurrected.

* Changed the benefit of the Extra Immunoresponse feat to read: "You gain another immunoresponse resistance, granting you an additional untyped +2 bonus selected from the immunoresponse class feature's list of resistances. This cannot be an immunoresponse resistance you have already selected." The old benefit description was from an earlier version of the immunoresponse ability that worked differently.

[ThreadNecro5]

just skimmed this, like the fluff and the idea and mechanics are interesting. will probably give this a more full look in tomorrow.

[Ethereal Gears]

Cheers. Yeah, it's rather a lot of pages to go through, unfortunately, especially the Mutants document. Anyway, looking forward to seeing what you think!

[Nobot]

Hi! Looks fun.

Some random thoughts while reading:

If it's a Biurge, his magic should be called Biurgy (not Biomancy). If you want to call the magic Biomancy, call the class Biomancer;
Why Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Escape artist, Intimidate, Perform, Stealth and Swim as class skills? These do not seem to match the description of the Biurge.
DC saving throws against adaptations: 1/2 the character's Biurge levels or 1/2 the character's levels in any class?
The Nucleus ability sounds like something that is very visual and powerful: instilling life force into globules and creating healing effects or mutants! Wow. I would say that it's not a level 1 ability (that you get 'out of the blue'), but an ability that takes some time to master, say level 3 or 4. (I know it's a core ability, but to me it seems like something you'll only manage after you've walked the path of the Biurge for a while.)
I would advance the effects of the curative nucleus a little slower (not every odd level);
Immunoresponse will force DM's to announce what kind of effect is going to take place when affecting a Biurge: instead of saying "the ghoulish, robed necromancer lays his decayed claw-like hand on the bare skin of your underarm, roll a fortitude save", a GM will have to tell the Biurge what effect he has to save against. Would't it be easier to just give them a flat fort/ref/will save bonus?
Anomaly is with charisma modifier, did you mean to do that? (Since you use Con for most of the other abilities.)
Kudos on the adaptations! They look and sound fantastic. Might be a bit OP, though.
Really like the mutants!


All in all: very nice concept! Might need a bit more balancing though. I haven't playtested it, but it seems a bit OP. Who made those lovely illustrations?

[Ethereal Gears]

Thanks for reading and critiquing, Nobot. Allow me to respond point by point:

1. I am aware of the terminological discrepancy. I know it doesn't make sense as such, but I don't want to change it for some reason. If more people find the idea of someone calling themselves a "biurge" practicing "biomancy" too ludicrous, I may be convinced to change that.

2. Those class skills reflect the fact that biurges later on gain the ability to mutate themselves, growing wings and flippers, et cetera; thus I wanted them to have the appropriate class skills. Come to think of it, though; does gaining a climb or swim speed, et cetera, automatically make Climb or Swim a class skill for you? If that's the case I might scrap those. As for the class skill not related to movement types, I imagine a mutant minion-having person to be good at Intimidate. Escape Artist again was probably motivated by the fact that they can mutate themselves and become all slippery, et cetera. I could probably drop Perform or Stealth if more people don't like 'em, though. Stealth again probably felt like it had some affinity with certain mutations (i.e. camouflage), while Perform I just added because it felt fun an fitting in some ineffable manner. Anyway, altering or removing these would not be an issue.

3. The DC is definitely based off of class level, as I thought was always assumed to be the case unless otherwise stated in PF. I cannot imagine it's standard PF terminology to always have to write i.e. "biurge class level". Within a document dealing with a specific class, I'm pretty sure "class level" is understood to always mean class levels in the class in question. Otherwise "character level" is used.

4. I don't find the idea of biurges being able to create nuclei at 1st level any stranger than clerics being able to channel positive energy or alchemists being able to create healing extracts at 1st level. I just don't buy that fluff argument. Remember that a character has had a life before attaining her first class level: isn't it equally amazing that a wizard can cast spells at 1st level by the same token? It's because years of study have lead up to that 1st level. Also, as you noted, nuclei are basically the core mechanic of the whole class, and it really needs to be online from the get-go.

5. Why should nuclei advance slower than channel energy or lay on hands dice in your view? I'm willing to consider this, though I'd need a cogent argument backing it up.

6. I'm sure that would be "easier", but it would ruin the whole idea of the class feature. Furthermore, biurges can gain different benefits from certain adaptations depending on their choice of immunoresponse bonuses. As for your example, why can't the GM just say, "roll a Fortitude save", and have the biurge roll her save, and then add the immunoresponse bonus to it afterwards? This could even add some extra exciting tension, as the biurge might think she's failed a save, but then in the last minute her magical immune system saves her. At any rate, I don't find this a strong enough argument to scrap a class feature that's a very heavily integrated and central aspect of the class. To clarify: there are lots of class features, magic items, race traits, spells, etc. that grant bonuses against specific kinds of abilities. I don't see how this one is any different, really. How does a GM deal with a Reincarnated Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/reincarnated-druid), for instance?

7. Yes, the Charisma for Anomaly was intentional. Since Con is such a strong "casting stat" I've made the anomaly class feature and some adaptations Charisma-dependent. Hopefully this is a workable balancing factor, though if people think it makes the class too MAD please let me know and I might change it.

8. Cheers. I'm glad you like the adaptations and the mutants. They're the most fun part of the class, obviously. As far as things being OP goes, well, specific examples would be useful. A sort of amorphous warning that an entire class features "might be a bit OP" does not help me to balance the class very much. Are there any specific adaptations that cause concern, and if so, why? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

9. I'm glad you like it. Again, regarding balancing and power level, any specific suggestions or problems in that area would be very helpful if they were pointed out. The illustrations are from a variety of Magic: the Gathering cards, mostly related to the Simic Combine.

Again, thank you very much for reading and critiquing. I hope I did not come off as too hostile; I really appreciate your views, even the ones I don't agree with.

[Nobot]

So, I just typed an entire post and then crashed... Here we go again!


Thanks for reading and critiquing, Nobot. Allow me to respond point by point:

1. I am aware of the terminological discrepancy. I know it doesn't make sense as such, but I don't want to change it for some reason. If more people find the idea of someone calling themselves a "biurge" practicing "biomancy" too ludicrous, I may be convinced to change that.

It's not ludicrous, just something that'll get noticed.


2. (...) does gaining a climb or swim speed, et cetera, automatically make Climb or Swim a class skill for you? (...)

I think that's the idea is that you get a bonus, check e.g.: the fly spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/fly.html).


3. The DC is definitely based off of class level, as I thought was always assumed to be the case unless otherwise stated in PF. I cannot imagine it's standard PF terminology to always have to write i.e. "biurge class level". Within a document dealing with a specific class, I'm pretty sure "class level" is understood to always mean class levels in the class in question. Otherwise "character level" is used.

You're right!


4. I don't find the idea of biurges being able to create nuclei at 1st level any stranger than clerics being able to channel positive energy or alchemists being able to create healing extracts at 1st level. I just don't buy that fluff argument. Remember that a character has had a life before attaining her first class level: isn't it equally amazing that a wizard can cast spells at 1st level by the same token? It's because years of study have lead up to that 1st level. Also, as you noted, nuclei are basically the core mechanic of the whole class, and it really needs to be online from the get-go.

The difference to me is that low-level magic is (visually) less impressive than creating these nuclei and spawning mutants from them. I would find it easier to accept if spawning a mutant took the Biurge more time to spawn initially, like a few hours.


5. Why should nuclei advance slower than channel energy or lay on hands dice in your view? I'm willing to consider this, though I'd need a cogent argument backing it up.

You could advance them slower because they are more powerful (nuclei offer more advantages: can be used more often and have multiple applications).


6. I'm sure that would be "easier", but it would ruin the whole idea of the class feature. Furthermore, biurges can gain different benefits from certain adaptations depending on their choice of immunoresponse bonuses. As for your example, why can't the GM just say, "roll a Fortitude save", and have the biurge roll her save, and then add the immunoresponse bonus to it afterwards? This could even add some extra exciting tension, as the biurge might think she's failed a save, but then in the last minute her magical immune system saves her. At any rate, I don't find this a strong enough argument to scrap a class feature that's a very heavily integrated and central aspect of the class. To clarify: there are lots of class features, magic items, race traits, spells, etc. that grant bonuses against specific kinds of abilities. I don't see how this one is any different, really. How does a GM deal with a Reincarnated Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/reincarnated-druid), for instance?

Yeah, that's true.


7. Yes, the Charisma for Anomaly was intentional. Since Con is such a strong "casting stat" I've made the anomaly class feature and some adaptations Charisma-dependent. Hopefully this is a workable balancing factor, though if people think it makes the class too MAD please let me know and I might change it.

Good, I don't think it needs changing necessarily. Charisma can certainly represent life force.


8. Cheers. I'm glad you like the adaptations and the mutants. They're the most fun part of the class, obviously. As far as things being OP goes, well, specific examples would be useful. A sort of amorphous warning that an entire class features "might be a bit OP" does not help me to balance the class very much. Are there any specific adaptations that cause concern, and if so, why? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

9. I'm glad you like it. Again, regarding balancing and power level, any specific suggestions or problems in that area would be very helpful if they were pointed out. The illustrations are from a variety of Magic: the Gathering cards, mostly related to the Simic Combine.

Yeah, "might be a bit OP" isn't very helpful, is it? Sorry about that.

So this is what I'm thinking:

Mutants, when compared to minions in general have 6 strong points:
1) they are extremely flexible (you can even use them in social interactions or as food, which rules);
2) doesn't matter if they die;
3) you can have more than one (level 8 onwards);
4) they can be called in when needed (they don't hang around all the time);
5) you control them;
6) they level.

So, that makes them more powerful than most other minions (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, the Biurge has a good base attack, good HD and fairly good skills. No spells, though. However, she does get anomalies and adaptations. And I wonder if that is well-balanced. You can do some pretty powerful things, like if I take the Shared anomaly adaptation at level 6, I could theoretically let my whole party use the rage ability of the barbarian. To me, that sounds OP, but I'm not nearly skilled enough with pathfinder to conclude that it is without playtesting. Hence the most useful comment ever: "might be OP" :smallwink:

Have you playtested it yet?

[Ethereal Gears]

I have not had an opportunity to playtest this class yet, though. Ideally, I like to have some people look at and offer up opinions before I do that. Possibly it would be better to do it the other way around, but here we are. Rather than go point by point again, let me just offer my general design philosophy regarding this class:

I'll compare this class to the summoner, as a lot of its mechanics echo those of that class.

A summoner has six levels of spellcasting, an eidolon and its summon monster SLA. These three class features are roughly what nuclei are up against. A mutant should not be that much more powerful than a creature conjured via a summon monster spell of a level equal to 1/2 the biurge's class level (minimum 1), so that a mutant created by a 4th-level biurge should roughly be equivalent to a monster summoned via summon monster II. Now, since mutants are customizable, I'm sure they'll sometimes be a bit above this mean, but it should average out. Mutants don't get spellcasting and other fancy stuff the critters you conjure via Summon Monster do.

The idea was to make a mutant slightly weaker than an eidolon controlled by a summoner of equivalent level. Mutants have the advantage over eidolons that you can conjure different kinds, but their phenotypes are set and cannot be altered (though they can be added to) as you level up. So while a summoner has a permanent eidolon that's more powerful than your average mutant, and can summon monsters via spells and SLAs that might be as powerful or slightly below a mutant's power level, the biurge combines those as a single ability. Now a biurge can also use her nuclei to heal or attack constructs and undead; in that case her nuclei are about equal to a lay on hands by a paladin (when healing) or about equal to an alchemist's bomb when dealing damage. But a biurge who wants to both summon mutants and heal/damage all day is going to run out of nuclei pretty quickly. They only end up with 10 more nuclei than an alchemist has bombs at level 20, and alchemists get six levels of extracts and mutagens. Part of the utility a summoner gets from spellcasting the biurge gets via her anomaly pool (effectively aspect combined with the evolution surge spells) and her adaptations. Now it is possible that nuclei are so evenly matched with the eidolon + summon SLAs + spells trifecta that the anomaly pool and adaptations need to be toned down. Another alternative would be to give the biurge fewer nuclei per day (I don't think this is necessary), giving her fewer phenotypes known to lessen the versatility of her mutants, or make it so she can't control more mutants simultaneously as she levels.

Sorry, that got a bit ranty. Anyway, those are some possible fixes I'm seeing right now. As far as individual adaptations go, I definitely agree that for instance shared anomalies might be too abusable. It doesn't really have that much flavor, so if other people dislike it too I could easily chuck it. Sorry if this didn't address your points head on, but I hope I've managed to explain some of my thinking.

EDIT: Thought of another way to phrase it, when compared to the summoner. Imagine that nuclei replace the eidolon and the summon monster SLA, while immunoresponse, anomaly and adaptations replace spellcasting and all other class features (maker's call, aspect, etc..). Viewed from that perspective, I still feel like this class falls at least slightly short of the summoner (especially considering how powerful its spellcasting is), and that is really all I hope for. As long as the biurge steers clear of Tier 2 I am good.

[Ethereal Gears]

Just thought I would add that for people who find the frankly rather large amount of paperwork dealing with mutants and phenotypes will involve, I am working on "The Demiurge", a sort of Frankenstein-esque archetype that only has a single supermutant to pal around with. If people don't find the base class as a whole wholly unworkable or something, I may post that later if folks wanna see it.

[Mehket]

I love this class and I don't find it too strong for my taste at all.

What I actually really love about this class, I've been looking for something to gestalt with the homebrew Xenoalchemist. This class does that perfectly. It fits the flavor, has no redundant abilities between the two classes nor obviously overpowered synergy.

I'll try to post an in-depth review once I'm no longer on mobile.

[Ethereal Gears]

Cheers. Glad you think it seems good.

Power level is not really a huge concern of mine; my inkling is this still flies well below the summoner (especially the master summoner), and that's the only design goal as far as pure power level is concerned.

Originally I gave these guys double their class level + Con mod nuclei per day, then pared it down to 1-1/2 times their level. I do think this seems balanced, though since nuclei represent such a huge part of their resources I'm wondering whether upping it to x2 level (40 + Con mod at 20th level) might be feasible? With all the adaptations requiring nucleus expenditure, I'd not want a biurge to risk running out anymore than a full caster will risk running out of spells or a barbarian will running out of rage rounds. I'd love to get some feedback on this, because I can't quite decide which number makes most sense.

I'm also unsure whether having the anomaly pool and a lot of adaptations key off Charisma works or not. Is that fine as is or would changing a few of these features to be Con-based make the class less MAD in a positive way? They only have one good save and rather few class skills as is, and if they wanna fight they'll need good physical stats considering they're only 3/4 BAB. Then again, considering they've got their mutants maybe that's not really something they should worry over in the first place. Anyway, any thoughts on these two issues I'd greatly appreciate.

[Mehket]

I'm not sure about the amount of nuclei without play testing. I don't really think it matters too much at higher levels because most characters, including yourself, will have a free or cheap way to heal between fights. The limited number of mutants at once means plus long duration means you should rarely run out of mutants in combat unless it's been a long day or they get killed they round. So I'd suggest analyzing the issue based on early levels.

As for the second issue...con is the best "casting" ability because it also helps with combat and saves. So the necessity of cha plus str or con for combat seems fine. Out of curiosity though, why charisma? Int seems to fit the flavor material more. I mean the simic is basically blues intelligence applied to greens nature.

[Ethereal Gears]

I think you're spot on regarding the nucleus issue, Mehket. I might look into giving them a higher starting number (like 3 + Con at 1st level or something) if playtesting bears out that they feel a bit short-handed at early levels. Thanks for the insight.

Regarding the MAD issue, again I think I am convinced. Splitting some abilities between Con and a mental stat feels balanced, at least for the nonce. As to why I chose Charisma; this class is not intended as some sort of PF "conversion" of Simic, so it shouldn't be tied down to the expectations of the Combine's flavor. My reasoning is that Constitution represents more visceral physical health, while Charisma is often used to represent "life force" or "elan vital" or similar concepts. I actually had the biurge partially based on Intelligence in an earlier version, but I felt that locked them too much into a Simic-ish "scientist" role. Certainly a biurge can be a brilliant bio-engineer, but she can also be a sort of mutant wilder who has no deeper understanding of the scientific (or magicotheoretic) underpinnings of her powers. A more Int-focused scientist-y archetype that veers more closely to the Simic theme is definitely an option though if people would like to see it.

[Rater202]

It looks delicious.

...Take that as a compliment.

[Ethereal Gears]

Yeah those robust mutants go down a treat.

[dethkruzer]

I love this class, but I don't really understand how the phenotypes work. do I, for each individual phenotype, take the level-appropriate base stats, and then apply mutations as i wish(as long as they fit within the aloted point limit)? But I then can't change these later, except ofr updating and adding new stuff at level up? correct?

[Ethereal Gears]

Cheers. I'm glad you like the class.

I did have some problems formulating the phenotypes class feature clearly, I'm afraid. Any suggestions in that area would be helpful. Yes, your interpretation is essentially correct. In comparison to the summoner's eidolon and its evolutions, creating a phenotype is essentially like creating an eidolon from scratch. You use the level-appropriate stats, buy mutations and then you're done. Now, whenever you create a mutative nucleus, you can create one that will animate into a mutant having that phenotype. The next time you gain a level, all your mutants increase their stats (as per Table: Mutant) and since this means their mutation pool grows in size, you now get to add further mutations to all your known phenotypes. If you also happen to gain a new phenotype known at that level, you also get to create a brand new phenotype. It is indeed so that your phenotypes' old mutations are set and cannot be switched out, meaning that you're gonna have to plan the "evolutionary development" of each mutant phenotype beforehand a bit in order to make it optimally effective.

Sorry if that got a bit lengthy; I hope it was clear enough?
Again, cheers for reading and I am most elated the class is vibing with you.

[Amechra]

Tentacular Adept should either require Natural Weapons (Tentacle), or should grant Appendage Points equal to the maximum number of natural attacks. I'd say to go with the latter.

I also think there should be an equivalent for Limbs.

[ThreadNecro5]

sorry it took so long but iv gave the class a read over.

so as something I was just wondering, why does the nucleus damage constructs? I can see why from a mechanical standpoint but Im wondering why from a fluff point of view, is it representing things growing on the construct to damage it (e.g. roots breaking it, bacteria digesting it, ect) or something like that?

onto the class itself it looks fun and despite the idea behind it sounding complicated to pull of you've managed to make it rather simple to do, so well done on that.

one big thing I like is the level of customization on offer, not only having a large amount of stuff to mix and mach (always fun), offering the day-to-day customization of the anomaly pool is an idea I like.

as far as what I don't like ther's not relay anything much I can point out.

im thinking about including one of these in my campaign

by the way, have you considered writing any archetypes for it? as a few ideas, one could reduce the amount/power of your mutants while giving you a permanent above-average power one, like an animal companion. or a similar idea that provides you with more ability to mutate yourself could work.

a few other ideas are one that trades the healing-based nucleus ability for disease ability, could also add more microbrial stuff like slime-mold ooze mutants or such for microorganism-themed biurge's. just a few ideas.

so overall it seems a very good class.

[Ethereal Gears]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

@Amechra: I'm assuming you're talking about the Tentacular Savant mutation here. I'm not sure I see why it should require tentacle attacks? You gain appendage points equal to your number of tentacle attacks, meaning that if you don't possess any tentacle attacks the mutation does nothing for you anyway. As for expanding it to work for any natural attack and creating an equivalent for limbs, I'm a bit leery of that. Flavorwise, I think tentacles are especially suited to that mutation. Mechanically, it was intended to give a boost to tentacle attacks, which are otherwise somewhat subpar. Still, if you have any ideas for what a limb- or general natural attack-based counterpart could look like, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I'm not quite sure how I'd balance something like that right now.

@ThreadNecro: Actually, as regards curative nuclei damaging constructs, I came up with that for fluff reasons rather than crunchy ones, though I am glad you think it makes mechanical sense. The idea is that biurges don't really channel pure positive energy in the way a cleric does, but rather wild life force which is certainly positive energy-based but also subtly different in its interaction with creatures. My basic idea was that a curative nucleus will heal anything that is alive and harm anything that is animated by things other than positive energy (anything that is "un-alive"). Undead are animated by negative energy, constructs are animated by pure magical energy. Ergo, nuclei damage both of them. I'm not sure how elementals work; potentially one could create an adaptation to let nuclei harm them as well, if they're not really considered to be alive in the same way other living creatures are. I'm not up on all the minutiae of D&D lore, and this class was created with my group's homebrew setting in mind. I was under the impression that positive energy is behind all life forms (including outsiders) and that only constructs and undead are not animated by it. Obviously we couldn't have nuclei affect outsiders as well, if they're animated by like planar energies or something rather than positive energy. Anyway, if the fluff of this ability seems off somehow or too diffuse people can always feel free to have nuclei just affect undead. What I imagine happens when a curative nucleus strikes a construct is that it starts rusting or rotting or having other similar destructive biological processes start occurring within its non-living materials. A stone golem might erode from lithotrophic microbes. A bone golem might fall prey to osteophagic ones or a wood golem to xylophagic ones, etc.

I do have some thoughts on archetypes, actually. As mentioned up-thread, the Demiurge archetype has been in the works and is now ready for public consumption:

Here y'all go: The Demiurge (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8e09cD4OAF3SVVmTnlrYW9wX1U/view?usp=sharing).

It's sort of a Frankenstein-esque version of the class which gets a permanent supermutant in place of the ability to animate scores of short-lived minions.

I like those ideas, ThreadNecro. I've actually already started on ideas for a swarm-based biurge and a disease-focused one. I do like the idea of bringing oozes into the mix, though. Possibly ooze-like mutants and adaptations could be combined with the disease biurge idea to create a sort of microbial plague nightmare thing. I'll see what I can come up with. Rather working on a lot of other homebrew stuff simultaneously now, though, so additional biurge archetypes are somewhat on the back-burner.

EDIT: I did note a few small discrepancies regarding the demiurge. Tidied it up and supplied a new link.

[Ethereal Gears]

Hey guys.
So, by popular demand (from Darkenbeast) I've cobbled together a mutant-less archetype for the good ol' Biurge. Basically, this is a gal what gives a bunch of mutations to herself (like an improvement of the anomaly class feature) in lieu of spawning 'orrid minions. Basically the hope was to create something vaguely reminiscent of a less balls-to-the-wall unbalanced and poorly written Synthesist. Or rather, this new archetype, the Automutant, is to the Biurge what the Synthesist is to the Summoner. Anyway, without further ado, here goes:

The Automutant (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8e09cD4OAF3SmlZVXNvM0VqdUU/view?usp=sharing)

[dethkruzer]

I do sometimes wonder where you find all this... interesting art you use for these. Still looking forward to when I might actually be able to play this.

[Darkenbeast]

I still absolutely love the Biurge, and the Demiurge is a great Archetype, gaining nice things in return to also losing some very nice things....but I have to be absolutely honest that....im not really a fan of this rendition of the automutant. I feel that automutation and flux is much worse than anomaly, especially since your mutations don't even last all day like anomaly does. I feel that an automutant should simply have many more anomaly points than a normal Biurge even if it means half as many nuclei or some similarly large of a loss. I also feel that losing immunoresponse is a strange thing to take away from the archetype as they are FAR more likely to use it even than a regular biurge as they will be in combat being hit by these things far more often and really would need the extra defensive help.

This is just my first impression and im not even remotely good with balance issues, but really it strikes me as simply worse than a normal biurge is going into combat, and with less ability to be mutated, yeah you can use your nuclei to keep mutations up but they are only rounds/lvl....simply not as good as having a set of mutations you can keep up. I don't mean to sound overly critical, its just that I really, really hope for the Automutant to be a great archetype that lets you be a mutated force of nature on the battlefield, less imposing than a sneak attacking rogue or crazy barb maybe but with great, flavorful abilities from your mutations.

[Ethereal Gears]

Well, since I've had a lot of people ask about the art, I should just say that none of its mine in any way, shape, or form. All the images, which are by various artists (I don't have a list of names, sorry), are from Magic: the Gathering cards, specifically cards related to the Simic Combine, a guild from the Ravnica block. Simic is a sort of biomantic guild. I'm not that familiar with the lore and plot of M:tG, actually; I just liked the themes Simic cards tend to focus on and thought they meshed well with my class. If I ever try to like release this class as a 3pp thing or something I'll just have to get some far less awesome art of my own. :P

EDIT: Actually, the Mutants and Mutations art is from the Pathfinder Monster Codex, come to think of it. The rest's MTG.

EDIT: Darkenbeast snuck in.

@Darkenbeast: Cheers for the critique. Well, first of all let me give you my thoughts on the flux pool. The idea is that while it's a lot shorter in terms of duration than the anomalies (which as stated last all day), it's also far more versatile, as you can get any mutation, even outside of your phenotypes, with the snap of a finger. I'm not super-invested in the ability, though, and I could imagine just giving them back anomaly, possibly with a larger pool size. I do rather like the spontaneous flavour of the flux, though. Might not simply increasing the pool size make it more viable? I think you're overestimating all-day abilities vs. extremely flexible but short-lived ones.

As for immunoresponse, I do see your point. I was simply at a loss for what to replace in order to grant the improved attack bonus. I think I'll scratch superior strain altogether and keep immunoresponse. Hmm...

Okay, so here's what I'm thinking. I'll give the automutant his own phenotype, which he can change level to level just like an eidolon can change out his evolutions (and like a demiurge's created can alter its phenotype). I'll retain flux, but bump up the points to level + Cha instead of 1/2 level + Cha. I'll reduce nuclei to level + Con instead of 1-1/2 level + Con to compensate. Lastly, I'll create a new adaptation that makes your BAB equal your class level when you're under the effect of your flux mutations. That should give these guys both an all-day set of mutations for utility and fun and the ability to hulk out via their flux points when really needed. How does that sound?

[Ethereal Gears]

Well, so, here's a stab an updated Automutant:

The Automutant (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8e09cD4OAF3Y3VRZjlTN2hiLUU/view?usp=sharing)

[Darkenbeast]

That seems MUCH better to me, and imho makes the Automutant really have earn the title of the best self mutationist. One thing I was just looking for to compare and am somewhat embarrassed to be confused by was I was checking to see just how many mutation points your mutants get to assign in their phenotype and couldn't find it, just the limit on how much each mutation is able to cost you based on level. I wanted to see if anomaly or the mutant got more or less at any given level. The flux idea being your Hulk option to go with your normal mutations is awesome in that context though, and with the lower amount of nuclei combined with cha still being a very needed stat on top of con and your combat stats means it can hardly be considered overpowered due to mad.

Cant think of anything else actually constructive to say but I do really like this rendition much more than the first :). Also i just wanted to take this chance to plug your adventurer class and to suggest any in the thread that hasn't looked at it to take a look because its also one of your EXCELLENT classes!

Edit: Just wanted to chime in that thinking about it more the mad for the automutant is pretty horrendous, especially for point buy games. Again im bad at judging power level but would it be too much to A) Give the automutant medium armor prof. to make up alittle bit on whats likely to be a low or lower than typical for combat class dex. B) Make the secondary stat based off of something more combat useful(the least likely route prolly) or C) give them some a growing natural armor or have some mutations that raise combat stats that can be take at certain lvls. as an expensive in mutation points patch up to the mad.

Just a couple more thoughts I wanted to throw out and see what you thought about it?

[Ethereal Gears]

Hmm. I always get confused when people don't understand the wording regarding phenotypes and mutation pools, because I never seem to get where I'm being unclear. Let me have a stab at it and see if you think this makes sense:

Each mutant belongs to a phenotype. The biurge can create a mutative nucleus that will animate into a mutant belonging to any of her phenotypes known. A phenotype is a "kind of mutant" and every time the biurge gains a new class level, she can upgrade all her phenotypes so that they utilize the new increased mutation pool maximum she has gained at that level. In effect, a mutant's mutation pool. The information is in "Biurge Mutants and Mutations". The phrase "This is the maximum number of mutation points the mutations in a mutant's phenotype can cost at the appropriate level" means the same thing as "This is the number of mutation points in the mutant's mutation pool", because a mutant cannot have mutations costing more combined than the total number of points in its mutation pool. This is exactly like an eidolon's evolution pool, the only difference being that in addition to being constrained by this mutation pool maximum, a mutant is also constrained by the phenotype it belongs to, because as the mutation pool increases in size, the biurge can add and upgrade mutations within all her phenotypes, but she cannot delete or change them out like a summoner can with his eidolon's evolutions.

EDIT: Also, cheers for mentioning the adventurer. I have a bunch of archetypes for those guys that I may post in that thread later. Furthermore, just to clarify; I forgot to put it in the actual updated pdf, but the automutant only gets level + Con number of nuclei per day, instead of 1-1/2 times + Con. I think this is balanced by upping the flux pool to level + Cha instead of 1/2 level + Cha, especially combined with the constantly active mutations from the personal phenotype ability.

[Darkenbeast]

EDIT: totally forgot to note the fact that I made this test pc at level 4! kind of important fact :p




Just as a test I made up an automutant and even taking huge liberties like epic fantasy point buy and giving him a +1 chain shirt, his saves were 9-1-1, with a 17 armor class, 36hp and 2 tentacle attacks for +4 to hit 1d4+1 each(both primary attacks) and one acid spewer tentacle at +3 to hit 3d6+4 damage(the obvious choice if not full attacking). With 8 flux points in any given 24hr period for 2 points possible a round as a swift action to beef up the defenses or attacks for 4 rounds each(4 2 point or 8 1 point mutations) and IF you take the flux mutation gives a tad better attack scores. True I could have gone with slightly better beginning attacks like claws or bite but I went for tentacles as that's my head and shoulders favorite path for flavor and personal choice reasons. Now of course he gets 9 nuclei to use to damage or heal so thats a big bonus there along with immunoresponse and adaptations. With regular point buy it gets bleak as it goes to 15ac with +5 and +3 for the attacks at +2 melee damage and +3 ranged damage, 36hp, 7-1-1 saves and 7 flux points(or 3-6 or 3+1 mutation additions for 4 rounds each) per 24hrs and 7 nuclei.

I very likely have one or 2 things wrong there but just wanted to throw an example up and see what people think, might just be me being used to a stronger power curve in my group but it seems alittle weak to me but to others could seem just fine?

Edit:just wanted to add that's using a race with a +2 to both con and cha.

[Darkenbeast]

Oh EtherealGears, am I right in assuming that the Automutant is restricted to the number of natural attacks he can possess based on level just as the mutant is? and also can the Automutant replace the 1 point value of his limbs like a mutant or not as for instance you could then swap your arms out for 2 tentacles leaving more normal mutation points open for improving them? ;p

[Ethereal Gears]

Cheers for making a trial build, Darkenbeast. I totally don't do enough playtesting; 'tis my weakness, I'm a helpless armchair homebrewer.

I think everything looks fine. Is that a 1st-level character? If so you he cannot possess an acid spewer tentacle; that's derived from a mutation that requires you to be level 5. He also couldn't have the flux surge adaptation, as that requires being level 6. Otherwise everything looks good, I think.

I'm not sure what you're saying though? Does this seem weak to you for a 1st-level character? I never imagined the automutant to be able to win any major DPR-races, certainly not at early levels. That's not the point of him. He should be more fighty than your average biurge, yes, which I think has been achieved, but his ability to acquire additional phenotypes combined with his flux pool, adaptations and nuclei makes the lil' guy a very versatile sport. Perhaps not at 1st level all at once, but that's true for almost all non-mundane classes. They take a bit to mature. Personally my group almost always start our games between levels 3-5, so I tend to design classes that work from 3rd onwards. Ever tried playing a 1st-level PF witch? Unless you go for slumber it ain't that fun. Anyway...is longevity the issue? I don't think it would be overpowered to let the automutant keep the standard class' nuclei per day, if that'd help. I could also imagine boosting to flux mutations to last minutes per level instead of rounds.

As for your questions:
1) I didn't put it in there, and I have to look but I may have forgotten to clarify that in the Anomaly section of the standard Biurge too, but: Yes, when gaining mutations, the automutant (and a standard biurge with anomaly mutations) must abide by the maximum number of attacks that a mutant created by a biurge of equivalent level would have access to.
2) Again, just to compare it to regular biurges and anomaly; I don't think I've specified this for them either, namely. But to answer you, since an automutant's mutations are permanent and part of her body and not something she temporarily gains, I say absolutely that her phenotype(s) should work like those of a regular mutant. I.e. you could create one phenotype for her where she has neither arms, legs nor a head, and therefore gains 5 bonus mutation points. She's be blind, deaf, unable to use items and have a base speed of 10 feet then, though. Unless she had a head I, as a GM, would probably demand you gain the trunk mutation and put a bite attack there to at least allow her to eat and breathe. Anyway, this class was based around body horror themes, and as its creator I say: Replace all your limbs with tentacles if you like, as long as you're high enough level!

EDIT: "Personal Phenotype" now reads:
Personal Phenotype (Ex)

The automutant focuses the mutative biomancy other biurges invest in the creation of mutants inward in order to alter her own personal phenotype. The automutant has her own mutation pool, equal in size to that of a mutant created by a regular biurge of a level equal to her own. She can spend the points in this pool to gain any mutations whose prerequisites she meets; this functions in the same way as a regular biurge acquiring mutations via the anomaly class feature. The automutant cannot have more natural attacks than a mutant created by a regular biurge of a level equal to her own, and she counts as such a mutant for the purposes of meeting the level prerequisites for mutations. Whenever she gains a new class level, the automutant can upgrade her personal phenotype just like a regular biurge can upgrade all of her known phenotypes. In addition, the automutant can select the Extra Phenotype feat in order to learn a new phenotype she can assume whenever she gains a level. This also grants her the ability to upgrade all of her available phenotypes when a new biurge class level is gained.

[Darkenbeast]

Totally missed the lvl 5 requirement of Tentaculer savant's acid spewer, and yeah I made the pc at level 4 ;). Awesome to know that you can indeed trade out limb points. As far as raising the flux duration to minutes per level I think is a good idea as that would solidly give you some great options and makes sure you don't run out of flux in just one or two fights where you have to spend more just to keep ones you need going but can really use each one for a good amount of time when you need it. Im still a little concerned about the MAD of the class but with everything working together you can probably be okay....though id say constitution is pretty solidly the mark of ones life force as anything that targets your health or life essence(aka death affects) almost always requires s Fort save which is directly influenced by your con score, but im sure the bigger purpose for the 2 stats was for balance in any case. But yeah definitely looking pretty good though so far. :smallsmile:

[Ethereal Gears]

Well, actually, this is a bit of flavour nitpick I feel very strongly about. I think Constitution is your physical health, while Charisma is your spirit and life force. Of course there's some overlap between the two, but there's a reason clerics channel energy via Cha instead of Con or their main stat Wis. So, no, I didn't just give them two stats to 'balance' the biurge out, I did it because in my conception both Con and Cha are very strongly tied, thematically to the concept of 'life' and 'essence', et cetera. In a twisted way, that's why I feel like undead use their Cha in place of Con. Their crude material life has run out, but their animating spirit remains, albeit in perverted form. Of course there can be a middle ground, and Con isn't just cartilege and blood, but I think there's a case to be made for a confluence between the two constituting a sort of elan vital or whatever.

Anyway, I think you might be overstating the MAD. Charisma really isn't that crucial for a biurge. It only ties into a handful of largely optional abilities. Usually investing in Charisma just adds an edge, rather than being crucial for a build to work. I have been thinking about creating an adaptation to allow them to use their charisma in place of dex for ac and reflex saves, much like certain oracle mysteries. Or possibly Charisma for AC and Con for Reflex saves and CMD. We'll see. I daresay the automutant is fine for now, though, and I'm not foreseeing any major changes with the main biurge class. I totally encourage people to houserule or tweak things if they wanna, though. Give 'em a good Will or Ref save if you feel that'd make 'em less MAD, for instance.

Also, yeah, definitely changing flux for the automutant to be minutes per level, but keeping the nuclei at level + Con per day.

[Darkenbeast]

That certainly makes sense :smallsmile: Actually I don't feel there's really mad so much for a normal biurge or demiurge as both can let their mutants do the real dirty work while they heal and do other great things for the party, its only in the case of the automutant that it seems somewhat harsh as they are likely to have a low dex and str which hurts alot when you only have light armor prof and light shield prof as well as inherent low will and ref saves. The low str makes your damage dealing a bit harder though not horribly so and with an okay dex you can always take weapon finesse so you can hit better and help your ref save at the same time at the cost of a little damage, that being said putting in 2 mutations like that would make a great resource costing option that takes away bit of the sting from those issues or even just medium armor prof or the option for a normal shield would help alot. I really want to get the automutant into my groups gaming and really give them a good hard playing experience, and then I could come and give in game feedback. I know I must be a tad annoying nitpicking as it were but truly its only because I really love the classes you make and have more than alittle giddy love for the Automutant archetype idea !:smallsmile:

[Ethereal Gears]

I wouldn't call it nitpicking. Possibly, this archetype was designed for a different power level than what your group plays at. In my group an automutant would be solid Tier 3, no questions asked.

Anyway, seriously, try building an automutant and don't focus too much on either Con or Cha. Counter-intuitive though it may sound, neither of those stats actually do a ton for you. Try keeping both at 12-14 tops. One gives you a few more nuclei per day. The other a few more flux points. There's no reason to select adaptations that require a save (like malignant nuclei, et al.). Neither Con nor Cha affect your mutation pool. Neither affect your maximum number of natural attacks. Con affects how much you get outta the rage mutation, true, but still.

Anyway, if you build one of these guys, assume there's an adaptation (NOT a mutation, as you wrote, just so we're clear) available from 3rd level and onwards which looks like this:

Biodefenses
Biodefenses (Ex): The biurge relies on pure physical resilience to bolster her defenses, using her Constitution modifier in place of her Dexterity modifier to calculate her AC and CMD. In addition, the biurge may rely on sudden surges of adrenalin which save her from danger just in the nick of time, allowing her to use her Charisma in place of Dexterity to calculate her Reflex saving throws if she so chooses. A biurge must be at least 3rd level to select this adaptation.

Hope that helps you along, and good luck with the game. Looking forward to any later upcoming playtest data if or when it happens.

[Darkenbeast]

Actually I just remade that example pc, and yeah after taking a good look at it, with flux changes lasting 1min per level its very solid. That adaptation would be very welcome for anyone though and hope its kept. I agree its very solidly tier 3 as it is now. Im gonna get this into a game at the first opportunity or our dm seems interested in making a party of biurgs of diff archetypes to throw againt the party and see how it goes ;P. I'll post any experiences either way. I just want to say THANK YOU by the way EtherealGears again for your fantastic classes and for being willing to put together the Automutant archetype. After making another test pc and thinking over it some more I think its going to be a gloriously fun Archetype to play. :smallsmile:

[Ethereal Gears]

Cheers mate. Thanks for all the feedback and stuff. Don't worry about being overly critical. That's how you get good games rules. I'm only ever so happy to make stuff that people like and wanna use, so that's its own reward. Anyway, looking forward to that data. I have, like, over half a dozen other classes on the backburner still being fiddled with, and hopefully I'll be posting a few of them here over the next couple of months.