My DM is letting me play a commoner

[G.Cube]

So I pitched a character idea I had to my DM that involves being a commoner, and he ended up loving it. Unfortunately he selection of available material is very limited, as it has to be available on Hero Labs. This leaves me with a few questions

1. Is the Survivor PrC available on Hero Labs?

2. If not, are there any other helpful PrCs available early on for Commoners? (Starting at level six.)

3. I'm going to go for a Handle Animal based build. Helpful min/maxing and optimization is obviously a must, but cheese is not our group's style at all. Any tips on this?

And yes, I've already read the completely awesome commoner handbook.

Thanks everyone!

[GreyBlack]

Chicken Infested
You’ve got chickens.
Effect:*Whenever you draw a weapon or pull an item out of a container, you have a 50% chance of drawing a live chicken instead. No, we don't know where the chickens come from; it's your character.

Convince your DM to let you take this as a feat instead of a flaw if he thinks it's too OP as a flaw. Commoner 1/19 cleric, constantly pull stuff out of your spell component pouch.

[G.Cube]

Chicken Infested
You’ve got chickens.
Effect:*Whenever you draw a weapon or pull an item out of a container, you have a 50% chance of drawing a live chicken instead. No, we don't know where the chickens come from; it's your character.

Convince your DM to let you take this as a feat instead of a flaw if he thinks it's too OP as a flaw. Commoner 1/19 cleric, constantly pull stuff out of your spell component pouch.

I appreciate your reply, but I already implied no cheese.

[GreyBlack]

I appreciate your reply, but I already implied no cheese.

But it fits what you gave so well! Because you're always infested with chickens, you learned how to handle animals so well! Then you can raise an army of chickens to do your bidding!

So maybe commoner 1/bard 19?

[G.Cube]

Perhaps I should explain what I'm aiming for better. The idea of the character is a stubborn, overly-proud farmer's son who's tired of adventurers taking all the glory and doing all the heroic deeds. He decides to take up adventuring and joins the group in attempts to survive the campaign. If he does, he'll return home to prove "the people" are strong enough to protect themselves and stand on their own two feet.

So, in interest of roleplay, I'd like to stay away from all magic classes, and really, just any pc base class unless it's a quick dip for something -both- flavorful and helpful. Essentially, I want to stick as close to Commoner as possible, hence why Survivor works so well here, though I don't have Hero Labs, which is the cause of the first question.

Edit: Also, it's a level six build. It seems you maybe skimmed over the OP a bit.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Building on a commoner chassis is definitely playing on hard mode. Commoner into survivor; even moreso.

Poor Bab from commoner and -no- bab from survivor (one of only two classes with that feature that I'm aware of) means you won't be able to hit even with touch attacks a lot of the time. AoE's from items have weak DC's. You'll be in a real bad way if your animals are unavailable for whatever reason.

Good luck, bub.

[heavyfuel]

Commoner 1 / Survivor 5 has BAB 0, which, with no casting, you won't be killing anything too soon, though you might survive.

To answer your question, I don't know if Survivor is available

[G.Cube]

Building on a commoner chassis is definitely playing on hard mode. Commoner into survivor; even moreso.

Poor Bab from commoner and -no- bab from survivor (one of only two classes with that feature that I'm aware of) means you won't be able to hit even with touch attacks a lot of the time. AoE's from items have weak DC's. You'll be in a real bad way if your animals are unavailable for whatever reason.

Good luck, bub.

While it's a fair point, b.a.b. isn't going to play much of a role at all here, even if I wasn't going for a HA build. I definitely, at no point, will be engaging in melee if I can help it and a ranged build is super feat and/or gold hungry, and with poor bab I wouldn't be hitting anything even without going into Survivor and losing bab.

[madtinker]

Check out human paragon. You can flavor it as an "I can do it on my own," pick up a bonus feat and ability boost. And its a d8 HD instead of commoner d4, and it doesn't have any prerequisites.

[G.Cube]

Check out human paragon. You can flavor it as an "I can do it on my own," pick up a bonus feat and ability boost. And its a d8 HD instead of commoner d4, and it doesn't have any prerequisites.

Will do! Do you know what book it's in and if it's available on Hero Labs?

Edit: Quick google showed UA.

[Bhaskara]

Not sure how helpful you'll find this since it starts with slightly different assumptions but it still probably has some nuggets you might find interesting.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook

[Vhaidara]

I'll look again a bit later, but I remember seeing a homebrew class that was something like the Peasant, which was playing off of stereotypes about commoners to actually make a semi-valid class. That could be useful to you.

[G.Cube]

Not sure how helpful you'll find this since it starts with slightly different assumptions but it still probably has some nuggets you might find interesting.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232822-The-Commoner-Handbook

Stated in the OP that I've looked through it, thank you, though.


I'll look again a bit later, but I remember seeing a homebrew class that was something like the Peasant, which was playing off of stereotypes about commoners to actually make a semi-valid class. That could be useful to you.

Stated in OP that it has to be available from Hero Labs selection of material, otherwise I would be interested in checking it out.


I truly appreciate the quick replies, Playgrounders, but you're not helping if you don't read the OP. :/

[Kelb_Panthera]

Will do! Do you know what book it's in and if it's available on Hero Labs?

Edit: Quick google showed UA.

It's in the SRD and certainly should be available on anything that draws on it, which is virtually everything.

[Kevingway]

I truly appreciate the quick replies, Playgrounders, but you're not helping if you don't read the OP. :/

I hate that, too.

I'm a big fan of commoners eventually "waking up," in a sense. In my commoner builds, I enjoy taking Wild Talent and eventually finding some way of obtaining a pool of power points, such as through items. I only use these to fuel martial maneuvers, which allows you to be a sort of initiator without taking other class levels.

Optimal? No. Expensive? Yes. Not in your price range? Even moreso. However, I think you could get away with using a few maneuvers through martial study per day, at the very least.

Edit: As for Hero Lab availability, that's something I'd expect you to have to tell us as we give suggestions. I, for one, am not familiar with it, so I'd give a more general suggestion.

[Ferronach]

you could always carry a sling and use it as a backup. A commoner living on a farm would likely have one and be skilled in its use due to hunting and scaring off crows and the like. I wouldn't worry about ammo, a farmer would use rocks and likely pick them up when he sees a good one and keep it in a pouch/pocket.

I don't think that a level of ranger or maybe even druid would be unjustified. Your animal companion could be your farm dog and favoured enemy vermin.

[G.Cube]

I hate that, too.

I'm a big fan of commoners eventually "waking up," in a sense. In my commoner builds, I enjoy taking Wild Talent and eventually finding some way of obtaining a pool of power points, such as through items. I only use these to fuel martial maneuvers, which allows you to be a sort of initiator without taking other class levels.

Optimal? No. Expensive? Yes. Not in your price range? Even moreso. However, I think you could get away with using a few maneuvers through martial study per day, at the very least.

Edit: As for Hero Lab availability, that's something I'd expect you to have to tell us as we give suggestions. I, for one, am not familiar with it, so I'd give a more general suggestion.

That... is most interesting. The Handbook does mention using Incarnum as help, never thought of looking into any of the other subsystems... many thanks, I have a lot of options to look into now!


you could always carry a sling and use it as a backup. A commoner living on a farm would likely have one and be skilled in its use due to hunting and scaring off crows and the like. I wouldn't worry about ammo, a farmer would use rocks and likely pick them up when he sees a good one and keep it in a pouch/pocket.

I don't think that a level of ranger or maybe even druid would be unjustified. Your animal companion could be your farm dog and favoured enemy vermin.

I've never thought of Ranger like that. Especially if you fluff it to a woodsman/logger commoner instead of a farmer, that fluff would make sense, offer a decent companion (for a level or two, anyways) and there's no casting, so no need to worry about fluff-justifying spontaneously knowing spells! Definitely don't want to take more then a one level dip in a base class, though. Keeping the commoner/underdog feel is an important part of this character's RP. Thanks for that great suggestion!

[Ferronach]

I've never thought of Ranger like that. Especially if you fluff it to a woodsman/logger commoner instead of a farmer, that fluff would make sense, offer a decent companion (for a level or two, anyways) and there's no casting, so no need to worry about fluff-justifying spontaneously knowing spells! Definitely don't want to take more then a one level dip in a base class, though. Keeping the commoner/underdog feel is an important part of this character's RP. Thanks for that great suggestion!

Happy to help! :) Farmer works with it too but yes a woodsman/hunter/trapper type would likely be a better bet. It would also grant you believable access to bows and certain useful skills that may help your character be of use to the team outside of combat.

[Bhaskara]

Sorry I missed the commoner handbook in the first post, so I'll offer some more advise. If you're going the Handle Animal route, do not forget about "pushing". The DC is up there but still able to be made with proper specialization. I played a fighter/ranger that specialized in Handling Animals and charging. Pushing was by far the best use of the skill. It allows your "animal companions" to know basically very trick but more importantly (though it depends on how generous your DM is) you can use it to take control of other people's too. Making a charging enemy's mount stay is probably worth a full round action. Better yet, make it perform and stand on its hind legs and force a ride check. Have the war dogs attack their masters and then add them to your pack. And that's another thing, you should be constantly adding animals to the herd. While more powerful than you, they can still die pretty quickly if you aren't advancing them so they can die pretty fast in battles. Plus it adds versatility if you have a hawk that can fetch or a mouse that can chew through bindings. Soon you will be a scary Disney princess surrounded by trained songbirds and wolves.

Edit PS: Ask if you can have a master tool for +2 Handle Animal. My character had a whistle for this.

[Devas]

2. If not, are there any other helpful PrCs available early on for Commoners? (Starting at level six.)

3. I'm going to go for a Handle Animal based build. Helpful min/maxing and optimization is obviously a must, but cheese is not our group's style at all. Any tips on this?



The Commoner can easily qualify for the Beastmaster PrC from Complete Adventurer at level 6, and it should work well with your Handle Animal focus.

[Forrestfire]

It might trip your cheese sensors, but I think that the Weresheep flaw is even more useful than Chicken Infested. It makes you a lycanthrope, which means DR, and on top of that gives you Delicious in sheep form, making you the single best tank in the game.

[Mitchellnotes]

How do you feel about the racial paragon classes? It would fit your character pretty well, whie still just an everyday person he embodies the best of the everyman, it would be a slight boost, but in no ways would be OP. If you were human, would even let you take handle animal as a signature skill.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since you're doing the animal thing perhaps complete adventurer's beast master PrC? Four animal companions of descending power, yeah?

[Ferronach]

you may also want to go from commoner to expert at some point for a few more skill points and hp. It is plausible that a commoner who practices handling animals enough could become an expert.

[StoneCipher]

Too bad drunken master has so many requirements. I'd think that would be a great flavor opportunity.

[Prime32]

I've never thought of Ranger like that. Especially if you fluff it to a woodsman/logger commoner instead of a farmer, that fluff would make sense, offer a decent companion (for a level or two, anyways) and there's no casting, so no need to worry about fluff-justifying spontaneously knowing spells!The original ranger didn't have any particular mystic ties to nature, they were just a dabbler who picked up a few easy-to-learn spells (from both arcane and divine sources) that could be useful on the frontier. Either they came across a few books on magic, or their family/organisation happened to pass down a few basic tricks, or they just asked a wizard ally "how do you do that thing where you get big?". Though to emulate it in 3.x you'd need the Sword of the Arcane Order feat...

[DrKerosene]

I've never thought of Ranger like that. Especially if you fluff it to a woodsman/logger commoner instead of a farmer, that fluff would make sense, offer a decent companion (for a level or two, anyways) and there's no casting, so no need to worry about fluff-justifying spontaneously knowing spells! Definitely don't want to take more then a one level dip in a base class, though. Keeping the commoner/underdog feel is an important part of this character's RP. Thanks for that great suggestion!
I'm sorry, but you'd need 4 levels of Ranger to get the Animal Companion, though you could trade the spellcasting for a feat, or other ACF stuff. If you want to try to rangle Calm Animals as an SLA, you might qualify for one level of Prestige Ranger to get the Animal Companion, Favored Enemy and no spellcasting progression. Kinda feat heavy though.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm

Wild Cohort?

[daremetoidareyo]

After survivor, ur priest is an option, heck it is even relevant if his underdog psychology is such that he flat out refuses the power of gods, he is going to prove that human alone is enough!

Stone blessed (gnome) (races of stone) might be right up your alley.

Uncanny trickster (complete scoundrel) gives you class level benefits of any previous class for the last 2 levels, so pairing it with any other prestige class is a nice boost. (commoner 1/survivor1/human paragon3/uncanny trickster 3 (based off survivor)/survivor2/ chameleon or beast***** 9.)

Maybe a martial stance that grants an attack bonus or saves to allies and then entry into mythic exemplar (complete champ)

master of masks is an option (complete scoundrel)

Forsaker looks like a nice stack on top of survivor but it is 3.0 (master of wild)

My favorite suggestion is to go human paragon (unearthed arcana) and then into chameleon (races of destiny).

Beast heart adept (dungeons cape) is quirky and fun, although it will make your dude/dudette be a convenient skill bonus/meatshield for a much better monstrous companion (sacred vow+vow of poverty + rust monster +obsidian bladed longspear? (dms approval))

Beast master (complete adventurer) looks exactly like what you're looking for also.

Those are all of your options that require no BAB.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Forsaker is almost never a good choice. About the only thing I could see it pairing sorta okay with is vow of poverty and even then two poor options don't make a good one.

[Telonius]

Fortune's Friend from Complete Scoundrel might be an option. Nice set of class skills (especially compared to Commoner), better hit die, good Reflex save, and fitting for the theme of a Commoner in way over his head. You qualify for the +3 BAB at level 6, if you're going straight Commoner.

I'd definitely recommend Able Learner. Your list of class skills from Commoner is complete rubbish; you'll want to squeeze as much out of the skill points as you can get.

[Curmudgeon]

1. Is the Survivor PrC available on Hero Labs?
According to the company web site, this is what is available for D&D:

d20 System SRD 3.5
So the answer would be no.

[supersonic29]

Fortune's Friend from Complete Scoundrel might be an option. Nice set of class skills (especially compared to Commoner), better hit die, good Reflex save, and fitting for the theme of a Commoner in way over his head. You qualify for the +3 BAB at level 6, if you're going straight Commoner.

I'd definitely recommend Able Learner. Your list of class skills from Commoner is complete rubbish; you'll want to squeeze as much out of the skill points as you can get.

Any excuse in the world to play fortune's friend. Plenty of skill points for you to distribute while still throwing enough at handle animal, bonus luck feats leaving regular feats for animal stuff, and you can scum your checks in order to succeed with the animals more often. Also, as said, fits with the theme of this guy not actually being all that efficient and getting lucky to get anywhere. I'm a fan.

[Telonius]

According to the company web site, this is what is available for D&D:

d20 System SRD 3.5
So the answer would be no.

Yikes. If it's limited to that, the OP is going to have a very rough time of it.

[Kevingway]

Forsaker looks like a nice stack on top of survivor but it is 3.0 (master of wild)

I love you. I never knew about this class until your post; I'm just loving the look of a character stub saying "Commoner 1/Survivor 5/Forsaker 10"... now what to pair with Forsaker for the last 4 levels. Hm.

On that note, I'm reading VoP and the like wouldn't work with Forsaker, which is fine for me (I, like the OP, love using Commoners); I'm wondering what would, though. The DR from Survivor is better than taking the DR from Forsaker, considering that the Forsaker DR is probably /Magic anyway.

Any suggestions on getting more Spell Resistance, perhaps? Since other SR sources can stack with the Forsaker's. Or maybe anything with Slippery Mind as a prerequisite might be good.

Does Fast Healing usually stack from multiple sources?

[Extra Anchovies]

Any suggestions on getting more Spell Resistance, perhaps? Since other SR sources can stack with the Forsaker's.

A drow forsaker would be a pretty awful opponent for a caster; [Something] 6/Forsaker 10 has SR 47.

[georgie_leech]

A drow forsaker would be a pretty awful opponent for a caster; [Something] 6/Forsaker 10 has SR 47.

[Insert caveat about the best spells being SR:No, etc.]

[Extra Anchovies]

[Insert caveat about the best spells being SR:No, etc.]

But the forsaker will also have strong saves (good Fort/Will, the feat prereqs, and the ability boosts). It's hard to find spells that are Save: No, SR: No, and are more than just direct damage (e.g. something other than an Orb spell).

[georgie_leech]

But the forsaker will also have strong saves (good Fort/Will, the feat prereqs, and the ability boosts). It's hard to find spells that are Save: No, SR: No, and are more than just direct damage (e.g. something other than an Orb spell).

All the summon spells, Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, every buff in the game, the various Wall spells, the high end Divination effects, flying, Forcecage... Really, direct damage tends to be the one that gets SR or Saves the most. :smalltongue:

It's certainly a flavourful option, but to the OP, just be aware that Forsaker tends to make the games math and assumptions even wonkier than they already.

[Gnome Alone]

According to the company web site, this is what is available for D&D:

d20 System SRD 3.5
So the answer would be no.

Then it looks like Human Paragon is the only thing mentioned that is both available and still stays within spitting distance of the Cube's concept. Luckily, an angry farmer doing risky things he probably shouldn't out of spite and/or an inferiority complex probably does qualify as a definitive exemplar of being human.