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KoDT69
2007-03-21, 12:12 PM
This weeks game I DM for, the party has entered a very strange dungeon happen. There are 4 characters at 9th level (bard, rogue/temple raider, paladin, & fighter/monk) none of which are very optimal (and when I say not very, I really mean not at all), and a beast-rider type barbarian level 12, and a fighter 4/cleric 9 in which the latter 2 are built also not optimal, but much better than the other 4. This dungeon has them so paranoid at everything because one room had a huge stone throne in it without traps and the exit doors much too small to accomodate a large enough creature to fit in it. The next room was identical which caught them offguard when they sprung the trap and the 4000 lbs stone throne was launched at them. Dodging the trap they found themselves barrelling out of 4ft wide hallway into a large room. 2 7th level goblin rogues were 15ft above the doorway taking attack of opportunity as the heroes entered. The floor was subject to a grease spell to reduce mobility options to those running at full speed ahead. At the end of the room was a buffed and ready whopping 6th level goblin sorcerer with 2 gnoll barbarians at 10HD each using non-magical greataxes, but subjected to a few buff spells as well. In an open field this would literally have been no challenge to them, but as 3 of the 4 9th level guys charges in and loses total control the goblin rogues quickly dispatch them with sneak attacks. The beast rider was about useless on the greased floor and hit with 2 rays of enfeeblement right off the bat. The cleric was last man dealing decent damage, but mostly wasting all of his actions healing the others who in turn kept getting slapped silly by greataxes. We all had a lot of fun with it and the players learned that just because we have 100hp and they have 30hp, doesn't mean they're pushovers. Seriously tho, a 6th level sorcerer... Awesome!
So what have you all done with creatures of much lesser CR than your adventuring parties?

kpenguin
2007-03-21, 12:19 PM
1st level kobold fighters in heavy armor and shields and with their natural armor buffed. Taking the total defense action. With kobold sorcerers in the rear blastin g magic missiles. And counterspelling the party mage.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-21, 12:24 PM
Small Monstrous Spider of Legend: CR 2 (but not really).

ThunderEagle
2007-03-21, 12:28 PM
I think, but I have not tried it out yet, that a gibbering mouther vampire ( published adventure) will be deadly. 6 bites, two negative levels each, CR 7 and a deadly opponent for a party of level 10s.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-21, 12:30 PM
Cockatrice; CR 3 with a Save or Die effect.

Innis Cabal
2007-03-21, 12:39 PM
the drowned, fort save that goes up every round, 3 rounds after you die. only one spell, breathe water, can save your life

Meat Shield
2007-03-21, 12:59 PM
Don't forget an ogre with a big honkin club. He's not the problem, but the four or five hungry rust monsters he has out in front of him like a hunter with a pack of hound dogs would be.

Heh heh heh....

Voleta
2007-03-21, 01:16 PM
I had a group that consisted of 3 characters all level 6: a human monk, human fighter, and a dwarven druid with a dire badger companion. I built the characters, optimized them out the wazoo, and put together detailed sheets on their abilities. I spent at least an hour going over the characters with the players.

It took them two hours to kill six giant fire beetles. The monk and fighter both would have died had I not fudged rolls.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-21, 01:19 PM
1st level Kobold Adepts with Sleep (and/or Cause Fear for foes past 4th level or just to create some chaos). Each has undergone the Draconic Rite of Passage allowing them to cast Power Word:Pain once per day as a spell like ability.

1st round hit each party member with a Power Word:Pain. 2nd round start casting Sleep to incapacitate foes for a Coup de Grace and/or cast Cause Fear to make the party scatter and unable to heal the damage that they're taking from Power Word: Pain.

Jerthanis
2007-03-21, 01:36 PM
I've said this in every single "these monsters are way too strong for their CR" thread so far, but I'm afraid I've got to reiterate... *shudders* ... Shadows.

CR 3, and entirely capable of a party wipe without very specific spells memorized, or a cleric with a good charisma. Incorporeality at a level where no one is likely to have naturally magical weapons yet, and the ability to deal large amounts of strength damage, which can spawn extra shadows. In the right kind of environment they can even retreat through the walls when injured so the party can't follow them, to strike back when they least expect it.

I've had level 10-11 parties knocked back on their laurels for several days of recuperation by a group of 4 shadows. Wights, other CR3 undead with a powerful draining ability, are also dangerous, but also much easier to kill quickly.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-21, 01:46 PM
Any given dragon.

martyboy74
2007-03-21, 02:51 PM
Any given dragon.
...when played intelligently. Otherwise, they're just (flying) meatbags.

hewhosaysfish
2007-03-21, 02:55 PM
the drowned, fort save that goes up every round, 3 rounds after you die. only one spell, breathe water, can save your life

Not a Fort save! A Con check! Bad dice rolls can put half the party down in the first round!

CockroachTeaParty
2007-03-21, 03:08 PM
Oh god... shadows... ick.

The Clockwork Horrors from MMII are deceptively low CR, especially if you use their suggested organization. The adamantine horror can throw around disintegrates and other such nonsense, and it's CR 9 if I'm not mistaken.

A warforged fighter with an adamantine body is only CR 1... but with an AC of around 20 and DR 2/adamantine, they can prove absurdly deadly to a party of low level PCs.

Also, Imps and Quasits, both CR 2, can decimate an unprepared level 2 party, what with their spell like abilities, DR, and fast healing...

JoeFredBob
2007-03-21, 03:13 PM
Like Jerthanis I may be repeating myself, but I feel compelled. Adamantine Horrors. They're monster manual 2, which I know has generally poor CRs, but they are way further off than most, by a lot. They are CR 9, and have Disintigrate, Implosion, and Mordenkainen's Disjunction at will as a 14th level caster, save DC 15+spell level. They also have a 50 ft. move speed, and AC 28. Neither of those are terribly devastating by themselves, but it makes them harder to kill, which is devastating when every round means save or die.

Edit: Simu-ninja'd with the Adamantine Horror? Impressive.

Variable Arcana
2007-03-21, 03:24 PM
Whatever level-appropriate encounter ruthlessly exploits the party's weaknesses.

No cleric? Most undead will be harder than their CR.
Melee builds with buffing casters? Anything that flies will be harder than its CR.
Arcane-magic heavy party? Something with a high SR, at least at low levels.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 03:25 PM
Any given dragon.

...if you include a bunch of stuff with the dragon, like traps and minions and magical items, that weren't factored into its CR.

Avicenex
2007-03-21, 04:44 PM
A low level ghost can do the same thing a shadow can. Incorporeality, lots of ability damage, scaring, and can retreat through walls. Add it to the right creature and the party is doomed.

Another one? Pixies. "Aww it's just a little fey, right?" Wrong. Permanent Greater Invisibility, DR, SR, spell-like abilities that confuse like mad. Substitue the racial hit die for a level of rogue, and it'll pick off the party one by one...

Although the lack of hit points is quite a disadvantage.

Renegade Paladin
2007-03-21, 04:59 PM
...when played intelligently. Otherwise, they're just (flying) meatbags.
If you're not playing a dragon intelligently, you're not playing the dragon well. Your average dragon will be smarter than the average PC. This only becomes more so as the levels get higher.
...if you include a bunch of stuff with the dragon, like traps and minions and magical items, that weren't factored into its CR.
You mean exactly what WotC does when they bother to put sample dragons into their books? Dragons, unlike other monsters, are not presented in complete, ready-to-play form in the Monster Manual. More than just about anything else, they are set up to be used as a campaign event, not a random encounter, because you can't just pull one out of the book, because unless you have the Draconomicon and are lazy, you have to sit down and build it like you would a character, feats, skills, and all.

Swordguy
2007-03-21, 05:01 PM
Fiendish Ethereal Marauders. CR3 creatures that you have absolutely no way to deal with at that level (jaunt in, hit you when you're doing something else that leaves you unable to ready an action against them, and jaunt back out in the same round). And the Fiendish Template gives them some nice bonuses with absolutely no increase in their CR.

I especially love doing that to the wizard (using a readied action to go off just as he's about to cast a spell) and using the smite good ability they get from the Fiendish template on the attack. I've made players cry with that.

The_Snark
2007-03-21, 05:23 PM
Dragons can be dangerous at low levels. I put a very young white dragon, CR 3, up against a party of five 3rd-level characters (fighter, rogue, ranger, druid, sorcerer). The party was admittedly not the most intelligently played, but still... the dragon did pretty well despite encountering them in a small dungeon room with a 10' ceiling. If it'd been out in the open, it might have managed to kill them. It's got a lot of health for its CR, decent AC, and reasonable natural attacks.

Any incorporeal monster or one that can turn ethereal can be deadly to a low-level party.

its_all_ogre
2007-03-21, 05:55 PM
ogre with long chain (treat as spiked chains but only do d6 damage) tripping pcs up, normal MM1 goblins around that jump on floored pcs and hit them while prone.
works out around CR4 at most with 4 goblins, makes any melee warriors worry after they've been tripped once and then been kicked in by goblins, just embarrassing!

Corlindale
2007-03-21, 06:10 PM
Darkmantles can be pretty nasty. Our party very nearly got wiped out by the combination of their nasty darkness ability and their tendency to drop right on our low-AC heads, and then back up to the ceiling again. We only managed to take them down(literally) when my wizard thought to cast Grease at the ceiling of the room.

kamikasei
2007-03-21, 06:25 PM
You mean exactly what WotC does when they bother to put sample dragons into their books? Dragons, unlike other monsters, are not presented in complete, ready-to-play form in the Monster Manual. More than just about anything else, they are set up to be used as a campaign event, not a random encounter, because you can't just pull one out of the book, because unless you have the Draconomicon and are lazy, you have to sit down and build it like you would a character, feats, skills, and all.

None of that makes dragons devastating for their low CR; it makes the series of encounters built around the dragon challenging but (presumably) appropriate to their EL.

daggaz
2007-03-21, 07:21 PM
Ghasts always bothered me, at least at lower levels. That save or be paralysed (and helpless) for every hit they land is just... suck. Especially once you get paralysed and they autohit/autocrit you and you have to keep saving or remain paralysed...

Seffbasilisk
2007-03-21, 07:28 PM
Allips and a level 1 kobold rogue with a heavy pick.

Pyro or Cryo hydras. My IRL group only survived because I as my Warmage/Rogue provoked six attacks of oppourtunties to close and lock the door into the room keeping the door between the group and the hydra. The hydra took the barbarian down to four HP in the first action, and if it weren't for evasion would have killed the Warmage/Rogue as well.

martyboy74
2007-03-21, 07:35 PM
Pyro or Cryo hydras. My IRL group only survived because I as my Warmage/Rogue provoked six attacks of oppourtunties to close and lock the door into the room keeping the door between the group and the hydra. The hydra took the barbarian down to four HP in the first action, and if it weren't for evasion would have killed the Warmage/Rogue as well.
Regular Hydras aren't very difficult; adding templates just makes them weaker. Did you not was any will save spells? Psionics is better suited for this (Death Urge), but still...

Seffbasilisk
2007-03-21, 08:06 PM
We had a Gnoll Bard/Druid (very ineffective), a Elvish Barbarian (decent smasher and meatshield), A death-touched human Warmage/Rogue (damage specialist and skillmonkey), A lizardfolk wizard and a very young silver dragon (pretty ineffective). Hydras pretty much rocked us, and when the Barbarian was almost down, he booked. The Warmage/Rogue being badly wounded, meant that if they fought, he'd go down, and the party'd be screwed. It was a Cryohydra too, so the silver dragon's breath weapons weren't really effective anyway. DM houseruled that since it just breathed, fire damage spells were at 1/2 damage for the next four rounds.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 08:09 PM
God forbid a Hydra meet a wizard with a scroll of Ray of Stupidity.

Jerthanis
2007-03-21, 08:23 PM
A low level ghost can do the same thing a shadow can. Incorporeality, lots of ability damage, scaring, and can retreat through walls. Add it to the right creature and the party is doomed.


This is true, especially with the +4 turn resistance that Ghosts have, but it's easier to point to Shadows, who are already statted out fully than to point to a template that can do pretty much the same thing.

I think Shadows (particularly in large numbers) can still be a terrible threat thanks to their Create Spawn ability, which increases their own fighting strength as the enemy strength dwindles. Also, Shadows have 3hd for about 20 HP, while a CR 3 ghost probably has 1, maybe 2 HD for 7-14ish HP, meaning it takes fewer lucky hits to take down a single ghost as a single shadow, making it more likely the Shadow takes someone out before dying.

Still... pretty much all incorporeal undead are ridiculously dangerous.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-21, 08:31 PM
We had a Gnoll Bard/Druid (very ineffective), a Elvish Barbarian (decent smasher and meatshield), A death-touched human Warmage/Rogue (damage specialist and skillmonkey), A lizardfolk wizard and a very young silver dragon (pretty ineffective). Hydras pretty much rocked us, and when the Barbarian was almost down, he booked. The Warmage/Rogue being badly wounded, meant that if they fought, he'd go down, and the party'd be screwed. It was a Cryohydra too, so the silver dragon's breath weapons weren't really effective anyway. DM houseruled that since it just breathed, fire damage spells were at 1/2 damage for the next four rounds.

That's not an under-CR monster, that's a really ineffective-for-its-level party.Warmage/rogue? LA-and-racial-HD wizard? Bard/druid with racial HD and LA? Ouch.

Seffbasilisk
2007-03-21, 08:58 PM
That's not an under-CR monster, that's a really ineffective-for-its-level party.Warmage/rogue? LA-and-racial-HD wizard? Bard/druid with racial HD and LA? Ouch.

The wizard's player is of the mindset of 'Magic missile. Is it dead yet?' or if there are multiple targets 'Fireball. He's in the area? Don't care.'

The Gnoll was Bard 1/druid x. She was EXTREMELY ineffective, and basically just was there to be another sack of HP to soak hits and trigger traps by opening doors/chests without letting the warmage/rogue check for traps.


Sad to say? I played the Warmage/Rogue, looking for Arcane Trickster and going basically full damage. I know it's a bad setup, but he was actually the most effective party member, hurling around lesser Orbs and always trying for sneak attack.

deadseashoals
2007-03-21, 09:14 PM
The monstrous crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) is pretty obscene for its CR. It hits hard, hits often, moves fast, has a ton of hit points and high AC, and will almost never fail to improved grab and constrict.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-03-21, 10:46 PM
The large number of undead in MM III that have the *shudder* Unholy Toughness ability (+Cha to Hp per Hit Die) a ridiculous feat that removes the only real weakness of the undead.

A Boneclaw nearly eradicated our 5th level party. 2 massive damage hits, 20 ft. reach, Combat Reflexes, 100+ hp, and too fast to outrun.

Helgraf
2007-03-21, 11:02 PM
If your party is low on magic weapons?

The humble CR 3 Grick.

KoDT69
2007-03-22, 11:33 AM
Anyone have another low CR encounter in which the monsters used superior tactics, terrain advatage, or other wise captialized on party un-preparedness? :smallwink:

Person_Man
2007-03-22, 01:40 PM
Anyone have another low CR encounter in which the monsters used superior tactics, terrain advatage, or other wise captialized on party un-preparedness? :smallwink:

I will often pit low level PC's against animals in their natural terrain. Snakes jumping out of holes and then retreating or in a shallow murky swamp, leopards dropping from trees, bison moving across an open plain in a stampede away from a wolf pack and directly towards the PC's, etc. Being animals, they rarely fight to the death, and any Ranger or Druid has Wild Empathy. But the terrain forces PC's to react to an interesting tactical situation, even if it's just a few rounds long. Challenging, but without TPK, the goal of every good combat encounter.

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-22, 02:09 PM
The monstrous crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) is pretty obscene for its CR. It hits hard, hits often, moves fast, has a ton of hit points and high AC, and will almost never fail to improved grab and constrict.
You left out the worst part: as a vermin it is automatically immune to practically every useful will-save spell that low level characters can throw at it (Sleep, Color Spray, and similar mind-affecting effects).

Also, between a 40 ft movement and 10 ft reach, it also has a charge range of 90 ft--further than an armored or small character can run in a single round. You can't even escape!

CockroachTeaParty
2007-03-22, 03:23 PM
Oh, lord! That giant enemy crab is horrendous! The only way to defeat it is to hit its weak spot for massive damage.

DaMullet
2007-03-22, 03:29 PM
Riiiiiiiiidge Racer!

At any rate, I've always liked anything that is backwards, like a Troll with a ring of Fire Resist or the like. It really screws the Metagamers.

Captain van der Decken
2007-03-22, 03:39 PM
Revived Fossil human. (Or any medium sized, 1-hd creature) +12 NA, 20 bonus hit points, claws dealing 2d6 and dr 10/adamantine. At CR 1.

Cleric would probably sort it out, I guess. But, a level 1 party?

Dhavaer
2007-03-22, 03:56 PM
Where is Fossil from?

Captain van der Decken
2007-03-22, 04:13 PM
LM, pages 118 and 119.

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-22, 04:30 PM
At any rate, I've always liked anything that is backwards, like a Troll with a ring of Fire Resist or the like. It really screws the Metagamers.
Those are some poor metagamers. Fire isn't even good against Trolls unless your party setup is really strange.

Edo
2007-03-22, 04:54 PM
Anyone have another low CR encounter in which the monsters used superior tactics, terrain advatage, or other wise captialized on party un-preparedness? :smallwink:Swarm-shifting mummified goblins. It all depends on what template you use.

The most all-around cool is definitely grave dust. An AC 28 goblin with a fly speed of 60' and the ability to fit through any Fine- or larger-sized hole in the wall... use your imagination.

For cruelty, undead leeches take the cake. Especially in waist-high water. Total cover, immunity to fire, immunity to nonmagical weapons, and DR 5/- on top of all that - plus the ability to outmaneuver the party.

I've never actually done this, but the rules are sound.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-03-22, 05:09 PM
7 21st - 23rd level epic level characters vs. a 18th level Kobold Lurk. Shredded 2 of us before we could finally lay a hand on it.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-03-22, 05:10 PM
DM was rolling exceptionally well, too.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-03-22, 07:10 PM
A good mounted charge build, attacking from ambush (or any other situation guaranteeing a charge).

Example:
Human 4th-level fighter/2nd level Warblade with the Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Cleave feats. Battle Leader's Charge strike and Leading the Charge stance.

Power attack at x6 (-1 to hit, +2 to damage, x3 Spirited Charge with a lance) for 36 damage; send that to your AC. Leading The Charge adds 12 damage on top of that; you can pull out 30 more from Battle Leader's Charge. You've got a strength of at least 14 (13 for Power Attack, no reason not to go to 14), so that's +9 more damage, at least.

You're doing 3d8+87 damage already on this attack, and that's just the easy stuff (your weapon isn't even magical). You don't need much in the way of magic on it; straight plusses and Mighty Cleaving (despite it being one of the worst enhancements in the game).

The hard part is ensuring an ambush (or ensuring an initiative win). Of course, this thing can charge from 120 feet away, or further (on a better mount), giving the PCs a nifty -12 to their perception skills. In fact, it doesn't even need this; just start the fight at a distance that the PCs can't get into melee from.

This is a "CR 6" enemy, which deals a minimum of 90 points of damage in its first attack, and can cleave, twice.

Of course, this is more of a PC build than an enemy, although it works both ways.

Then there's a Half-Dragon Giant Crocodile Zombie. Incredible strength, 14 hit dice, flying, and a whole bunch of other nice features. CR 4. Easily taken out, though, by tactical positioning, clever spellcasting, or the above-mentioned lancer build. So, of course, it works best in combinations with other things to make its enemies hold still (or run into its path), distract casters, and impede lancers.