how to fix epic spellcasting

[Kimras]

seem like most everyone is in agreement that it is broken so is there any thoughts to make it viable

[Deox]

Three easy steps:
1) Put Epic Level Handbook into fireplace.
2) Set fire.
3) Never speak of Epic Spellcasting again.


In all honesty, it seems to be there only for the sake of completeness. Friends don't let friends play with Epic Spellcasting.

[NichG]

First you have to choose what aspect of it is central which you want to preserve. Then you can figure out what things can be changed in order to rebalance it, and what things you have to design around to make work.

E.g. does it have to be a constructive system in which you build spells from seeds, or can you get rid of that? Is it important that it be based off of making skill checks to devise the spells? How similar to the existing mechanics of D&D do the results need to be, or can you create new systems in which to anchor it which work differently? How about its relationship to different classes - arcanists, divine casters, even martial adepts?

[Necroticplague]

Completely forget about it as a concept. 'build-your-own' systems like that inevitably end up horrifically broken in both directions. Just look at Marrowind's spellcrafting, Pathfinder Words of Power, Lichdom:battlemage's entire system, Transistor's modifiers. If you give people the ability to just make they want and decide on weaknesses and strengths of it, you'll end up with ridiculously unbalanced combinations. Meanwhile, the ones that aren't broken are handled better by just normal spells, since the basic effects will have drawbacks.

[Deox]

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

For the sake of your sanity, stop it.

[Curmudgeon]

Dump the Epic spellcasting seed-based system entirely. Keep Improved Spell Capacity [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) to allow more powerful spells with Heighten Spell and other metamagic additions.

[Melcar]

Well I would do one of two things

Either A) Allow for spellcasters to gain access to 10 or 11th level spells as of FR of old
B) Make it take a lot longer time to create, with every component being a quest in itself. That might inspire more roleplaying. That whole system seem to be the opposite. Also... one culd remove the mitigating factors, possible except multiple casters... that would also make it them nigh usuable, but still allow your players to pursue godly power.

[OldTrees1]

Step 1: Craft Epic level options for non casters that are better than the non epic options for casters.
Step 2: Give epic casters higher level spell slots and work with them on designing higher level spells (1 per caster per session) that are in line with the options for epic non casters.
Step 3: Feign ignorance that WotC ever printed Epic level rules.

[PaucaTerrorem]

I've seen this pop up a few times but never looked into it. How broken is epic spellcasting, beyond core casting brokenness that is.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Once you hit level 21, switch to playing Nobilis.

[OldTrees1]

I've seen this pop up a few times but never looked into it. How broken is epic spellcasting, beyond core casting brokenness that is.

You know how Gate gives you an infinite army of Solars? Epic Spellcasting is like that but using your own Solar Mark II design. This is as a result of the zero cost positive feedback loop.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Ahh. I see. Yes that should not be allowed. Let's do away with that.

[tomandtish]

I've seen this pop up a few times but never looked into it. How broken is epic spellcasting, beyond core casting brokenness that is.

Extremely. I can't find the thread but someone wrote out how to animate the entire planet as a 25th level caster I believe?

[Hyooz]

Once you hit level 21, switch to playing Nobilis.

Something to this effect, absolutely.

At a certain point, you just need to switch to something more abstract. Trying to mechanics it out is a lost cause, frankly. Pick your favorite abstracted spell system and let it go from there.

[OldTrees1]

Ahh. I see. Yes that should not be allowed. Let's do away with that.

Yeah. Unfortunately the Epic Spellcasting RAW without abusing the positive feedback loop is weaker than 9th level spells were intended to be(not even comparing them to how powerful 9ths actually are).

So the only real solution is to scrap Epic Spellcasting RAW and replace it with 10th+ level spells designed by player+DM.

[Cruiser1]

seem like most everyone is in agreement that it is broken so is there any thoughts to make it viable
Easy. Epic spellcasting is actually fine the way it is. Just remove the ability to create custom spells. The only epic spells allowed are those on the official list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm). These spells all have the XP and gp development costs as listed. Mitigation factors aren't allowed. Fewer casters will be willing to spend an epic feat, along with lots of XP and gp, in order to cast from a relatively small list of spells that aren't much more powerful than 9th level spells.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Made a decent attempt at it a few years ago. It went like this;


1) Make 1 Epic Feat per type of epic spell you want access to. Epic Heighten (increase spell-level-dependent effects like what levels globe of invulnerability covers or what CR/hd limits you can call plus save DCs, Spellstorm (multi-cast combos), Epic Battlemagic (combat spells over long ranges and wide areas), Epic Extend (long durations), Epic Empower (increase damage and protection penetration) and so on.

2) Make such feats incremental on spell level, thus tied to ISC. No easy mitigation crap.

3) Make free will (not being controlled or influenced) a requirement for epic magic. Also, make it unmodifiable by any effects outside the subsytem itself.

4) Introduce specific weaknesses, substantial mitigators and counters. Raising permanent wards over a city (i.e. Mythal) would require payment in lost levels or equivalent sacrifice by the primary casters, lasting spells require either immobile foci or vulnerable ones that accompany the effect, effects being corruptible over time, and generally drawbacks that are actually drawbacks and can't be gotten around for the more titanic magical effects.





And then go and make a similar system into how mundanes can carry out effects in similar scopes. Like warriors being able to raise and command armies, tame and ride monsters and construct castles, smiths being able to forge awesome gear -including artifacts- based on their skill, charismatic leaders controlling cities, corporations, even kingdoms, conmen being able to cheat and deceive even abominations and primal forces into doing their bidding. Never got around to this second part though...

[Extra Anchovies]

The two things you need to do to keep Epic Spellcasting in check:

1. Never, ever, allow a PC or cohort to have it.
2. Only give it to one NPC (if that), and have them use it for plot spells.

[atemu1234]

Dump the Epic spellcasting seed-based system entirely. Keep Improved Spell Capacity [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity) to allow more powerful spells with Heighten Spell and other metamagic additions.

This, basically. I use Epic Spellcasting as DM, but I keep such a close eye on it my players basically think it's worthless.

[Milo v3]

Looking over the rules a while ago when a player wanted to try epic, I decided that Epic Spells themselves would be banned, but you can still use the feats to gain 12th level spell slots and such, and then craft a non-epic spell and use metamagic on it. Has the whole "You can make magic do whatever", but it's limited to the fact that it still has to start off being reasonable for non-epic.

[Krobar]

In our games epic spellcasting requires Divine Rank 1 or higher. You can still take Improved Spell Capacity to get higher than 9th level slots, which you might need for metamagic purposes, but unless you're a god you don't get epic spells.

[sideswipe]

easy, easy easy easy easy!

continue spell progression tables in the pattern they are going almost indefinitely.

they then unlock 10th/11th/ 12th level spell slots.

this allows them to apply metamagics to spells they know easily.

epic feat - splice spell (prerequisites - any 3 metamagic feats and twin spell, caster level 21st, spellcraft 24 ranks)
you may use a spell slot to cast two spells of lower level that you can cast simultaneously.
example, using a 10th level spell slot you may cast disjunction and grease, they do not have to be at the same target and are treated as separate spells in all regards except that they use one spell slot.
the two spells being cast may not exceed the combined spell level slot of the original slot, but may be of a lower combined level.
if you prepare spells you must prepare the slot prior to casting with a spliced spell as per normal with applying metamagic to a spell,
you may add metamagic to each spell of the spliced spell, they are separate and paid for separately.
you may not add metamagic to the spliced spell itself.

epic feat - greater spliced spell (prerequisites - splice spell, caster level 24)
you may now use the splice spell feat to splice 3 spells into 1)

[Phelix-Mu]

Whatever is done, if you are trying to make it work, consider carefully before allowing the Mythal and Shadow seeds from LEoF.

1.) Mythals easily can be used to grant NI amounts of normal spells, magic item effects, and other more obscure effects. Although they are pricey, broken mitigation means they actually aren't. Even with non-broken mitigation, though, NI and free-wish stuff is bad. Very bad.

2.) Shadow can be used to create copies of any creature. Even ones with class levels. So you can magic up Elminster. It doesn't take a member of the brain trust to figure out why this is a problem. While the normal version doesn't last that long, the rules on how duration works with multiple seeds is dumb dumb dumb. Also, forget the cloning; the other version just copies any spell or whatever at 100% effectiveness. That right there is a problem, since it potentially adds cheap wish++ to any spell list whose caster can qualify for Epic Spellcasting.

And, as a final note, Epic Spellcasting is pretty much the nth nail in the coffin of magic v mundane balance. Mundane options in epic are roundly terrible, while caster options minus Epic Spellcasting are decent (Multispell, Automatic metamagics, Improved Spell Capacity, etc). Tacking on a whole twenty-page chapter about super-powered full casters is really just a slap in the face to anyone that didn't play one.

[Nightraiderx]

easy, easy easy easy easy!

continue spell progression tables in the pattern they are going almost indefinitely.

they then unlock 10th/11th/ 12th level spell slots.

this allows them to apply metamagics to spells they know easily.

epic feat - splice spell (prerequisites - any 3 metamagic feats and twin spell, caster level 21st, spellcraft 24 ranks)
you may use a spell slot to cast two spells of lower level that you can cast simultaneously.
example, using a 10th level spell slot you may cast disjunction and grease, they do not have to be at the same target and are treated as separate spells in all regards except that they use one spell slot.
the two spells being cast may not exceed the combined spell level slot of the original slot, but may be of a lower combined level.
if you prepare spells you must prepare the slot prior to casting with a spliced spell as per normal with applying metamagic to a spell,
you may add metamagic to each spell of the spliced spell, they are separate and paid for separately.
you may not add metamagic to the spliced spell itself.

epic feat - greater spliced spell (prerequisites - splice spell, caster level 24)
you may now use the splice spell feat to splice 3 spells into 1)


This is a pretty smart way to go about it but I'd like to add that you may also want to increase the static DC's of spells like grease (balance check 15 is nothing to alot of monsters)

[Psyren]

Once you hit level 21, switch to playing Nobilis.

Or Exalted. Pow!


Easy. Epic spellcasting is actually fine the way it is. Just remove the ability to create custom spells. The only epic spells allowed are those on the official list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm). These spells all have the XP and gp development costs as listed. Mitigation factors aren't allowed. Fewer casters will be willing to spend an epic feat, along with lots of XP and gp, in order to cast from a relatively small list of spells that aren't much more powerful than 9th level spells.

So in other words ban it, because pretty much all of these suck. (Even seemingly useful ones like Contingent Resurrection can be done more cheaply pre-epic.)